|
queeb posted:Yeah having played some season of discovery the last little bit it's crazy how broken people's brains are by parsing and meta stuff. Checking gear and logs for the most mouthbreather content. I'm glad I got to experience MMOs back when nobody knew poo poo Yeah, this has been my experience as well. It was fun to experience a version of WoW where there was a little bit of genuine discovery again (even if it meant that I had to avoid looking up stuff online that had already been found), and I had fun doing 5 man content, but the amount of player-engineered gatekeeping when you get near endgame is just ridiculous. drat Dirty Ape posted:I agree that this kind of sucks, but it's also the inevitable outcome of developers who basically design X fight with the intention of a group having Y DPS. This is the argument so many people make about MMOs in general (and WoW in particular, since it's what I've been playing the most recently) but the truth of the matter is that unless you're doing Ultra Mythic+++ Deathworld Mode, Y is so laughably low that you don't even need a full group, let alone a full group of meta-build players to exceed it. Yet vast swaths of the community, desperate to rush through content so they can obtain their BiS items and then log off and never touch their character again, thinks that in order to do Y damage they actually need Y^3 damage in their raid with everyone parsing 99, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is trash. But it's a loving game. I understand that people play the same game differently, and just because I want to play it one way doesn't mean that everyone should agree with me, but the current meta in endgame raiding focused games like WoW is incredibly toxic and just plain lovely to interact with unless you also have a very specific type of brain worms. At least with new games there's a window of like, a week or two where the player base is varied enough that it dilutes all this insanity to an acceptable level.
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 14:47
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 13:59 |
|
|
i've been playing sod and i haven't encountered any of the parse/speedrun obsessed people outside of the class discords (which is largely what those are for) find/start a guild that doesn't give a poo poo about logging and you can entirely ignore them, it's not like any of these fights are complex enough for any of this poo poo to matter
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 15:23
|
|
|
kedo posted:WoW is incredibly toxic and just plain lovely to interact with I mean there's your problem right there.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 15:38
|
|
|
I have never played with any of those kind of psychos, I highly recommend just not interacting with them for any reason and then the game will be significantly more enjoyable for you.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 17:27
|
|
|
In modern MMOs your performance as a player hinges on 2 things, your character's build aka your tools, and your skill at using them. It's natural for players to want to give themselves the best start possible by at least getting rid of the 1 thing that may be holding them back. Complex skill rotations just make this worse. Too much importance is shifted from deciding how to build your character (because equipment is all just stats -> bigger stats, with the occasional need to check which stats are the best for your class) to optimal skill use and rotations. Now the only way to 'do better' is to get better at the rotation, everyone else can see where you messed up, and if you don't do this, you're indirectly punishing other people trying to parse better because your/their buffs won't line up with their/your dps moves. There was absolutely nothing wrong with 8 spells or just autoattack + backstab, an ability or two, and some consumable/utility clickies. In both WoW and XIV (and GW2, but for example not in DDO, EVE), your character is reduced to a fully customizable 3d model with a single gear score attached, and only your current ability to play the game well matters for your performance. That's perfectly good game design, but it's really far removed from RPGs.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 17:54
|
|
|
The fundamental problem is that to a lot of people, there's no such thing as 'viable'. You are either Optimal or you are Doing It Wrong. It doesn't matter how much you enjoy the alternative build you created, you are Doing It Wrong because it is not the optimal build, and you are doing the same thing as someone playing an Ice Mage in FFXIV or just spamming autoattack in Guild Wars: You are choosing to play badly for your own amusement in a multiplayer game. You're basically trolling by not picking the optimal build.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 18:20
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:The fundamental problem is that to a lot of people, there's no such thing as 'viable'. You are either Optimal or you are Doing It Wrong. It doesn't matter how much you enjoy the alternative build you created, you are Doing It Wrong because it is not the optimal build, and you are doing the same thing as someone playing an Ice Mage in FFXIV or just spamming autoattack in Guild Wars: You are choosing to play badly for your own amusement in a multiplayer game. You're basically trolling by not picking the optimal build. Yeah. I try not to attack other people, but I definitely use this against myself. It's really annoying when I enjoy say a sub optimal talent pick, like Gloomblade for sub rogue over backstab, but it's suboptimal, so I'd rather just play another class where I can enjoy being optimal than a suboptimal build I enjoy on a class I love.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 18:31
|
|
|
Ra Ra Rasputin posted:I mean there's your problem right there. Fajita Queen posted:I have never played with any of those kind of psychos, I highly recommend just not interacting with them for any reason and then the game will be significantly more enjoyable for you. Yeah, you two are both on the right path, I think it's time for me to just plain exit WoW again, for the billionth time. I've done my best to avoid folks like this, but the thing with playing an ancient MMO is that the majority of the people left playing it at this point are crazy.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 20:03
|
|
|
I'd argue that at release the playerbase was on the crazier side too and there is enough video evidence out there and ancient memes to prove it, high level raiding attracts some really weird and/or unpleasant people. These days I heard WoW is filled with the sort of people that approve of everything that went on behind closed doors at blizzard (or don't care enough to voice disapproval with their wallet) and open recruitment for alt-right groups in global chats.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 20:21
|
|
|
if you join a speedrunning guild ya it's gonna be filled with those psychos i've been playing sod since it launched in november after not having played wow since like 2011 and i've not encountered a single one in the wild, the problem is largely overstated if you don't surround yourself with clowns
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 20:43
|
|
|
kedo posted:This is the argument so many people make about MMOs in general (and WoW in particular, since it's what I've been playing the most recently) but the truth of the matter is that unless you're doing Ultra Mythic+++ Deathworld Mode, Y is so laughably low that you don't even need a full group, let alone a full group of meta-build players to exceed it. Yet vast swaths of the community, desperate to rush through content so they can obtain their BiS items and then log off and never touch their character again, thinks that in order to do Y damage they actually need Y^3 damage in their raid with everyone parsing 99, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is trash. You know what, you're right. The mechanics statement is only really applicable at high level raiding or whatever. My revision is that really this is the consequence of MMO developers preying on the 'numbers go up' addictive gameplay loop by making activities in their game a second job that people are required to do in order to get to the higher level raiding stuff. When your game design is 'do the same 5 dungeons every day for 6 months for tokens that you can turn in for a new slighty better set of pants' you end up with a grumpy bunch of players who just want to get their second job over with as quickly as possible and move on to the stuff they would rather be doing. No longer is it "I can't wait to explore this castle and see what cool stuff is inside and what treasures we may get!" but now it is "I need my tokens and I want to get this over withas fast as possible and now I'm saddled with these random players I don't know who are making this take longer than I think it should". Also, there is a whole rant here about reputation, the dungeon finder, etc etc that basically amounts to 'people are often rude to random people on the internet'. In the old days, helping that clueless new player through a dungeon would likely result in a new guildie or at least a potential friend. e: this is all old man yelling at clouds stuff, lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 21:18
|
|
|
kedo posted:Yeah, you two are both on the right path, I think it's time for me to just plain exit WoW again, for the billionth time. I've done my best to avoid folks like this, but the thing with playing an ancient MMO is that the majority of the people left playing it at this point are crazy. Just join us in <girls only> where we've been making classic WoW and it's various iterations substantially more enjoyable for goons for four years and running.
|
|
#
?
Mar 12, 2024 21:25
|
|
|
kedo posted:Yet vast swaths of the community, desperate to rush through content so they can obtain their BiS items and then log off and never touch their character again, thinks that in order to do Y damage they actually need Y^3 damage in their raid with everyone parsing 99, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is trash. Having actually been a successful DPS in a top 10 raiding guild at the original peak of wow (nax/T3) during a time where I actually kept up, to call those people lovely or toxic is an understatement. I enjoyed the challenge while I kept it up, however: These people are often bad for existence. I had a blast with certain parts of wow but I never looked back shortly after TBC because of how lovely it was. It's also borderline impossible for anyone else to keep up with the speed grinders and it's unfair to everyone else. I remember we were so far ahead in T3 that we would speedrun the rest. so fast that it changes how the game operates vs everyone, as you start farming obscene gold quickly. World raids in 8-10 minutes, T2 in 25-30 minutes. (normally 1-2hrs). It was absolutely trolling on every level. So you get ego boost + advantage + lording over everyone = breeds the worst kind of people.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 01:22
|
|
|
Thanks for the convo all, and also my apologies for venting my spleen a bit. Work stress bleeding into the MMO HMO   Fajita Queen posted:Just join us in <girls only> where we've been making classic WoW and it's various iterations substantially more enjoyable for goons for four years and running. I'll take you up on this if I return.  drat Dirty Ape posted:e: this is all old man yelling at clouds stuff, lol bro stop doxxing me
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 02:13
|
|
|
Apparently the RuneScape creator is working on a new MMO. It has a steam page now and it looks like complete garbage. Totally generic, has a vibe somewhere between “AI generated” and “game in a cop show”. The trailer emphasizes the presence of magic, blacksmithing, woodcutting, and extraordinarily forgettable combat in knock-off ultima land. I genuinely can’t believe something so stupid and lazy is attracting interest but apparently it is. I’m sure the exciting and well manifested three class system of Cryoknight, Hammermage, and Guardian will innovate in spectacular ways
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 15:43
|
|
|
Frog Act posted:Apparently the RuneScape creator is working on a new MMO. It has a steam page now and it looks like complete garbage. Totally generic, has a vibe somewhere between “AI generated” and “game in a cop show”. The trailer emphasizes the presence of magic, blacksmithing, woodcutting, and extraordinarily forgettable combat in knock-off ultima land. I genuinely can’t believe something so stupid and lazy is attracting interest but apparently it is. I’m sure the exciting and well manifested three class system of Cryoknight, Hammermage, and Guardian will innovate in spectacular ways hahah you weren't kidding https://store.steampowered.com/app/2791440/Brighter_Shores/
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 16:41
|
|
|
browner shorts
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 16:56
|
|
|
Man “video game in a cop show” is the perfect description lol
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 17:18
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:The fundamental problem is that to a lot of people, there's no such thing as 'viable'. You are either Optimal or you are Doing It Wrong. It doesn't matter how much you enjoy the alternative build you created, you are Doing It Wrong because it is not the optimal build, and you are doing the same thing as someone playing an Ice Mage in FFXIV or just spamming autoattack in Guild Wars: You are choosing to play badly for your own amusement in a multiplayer game. You're basically trolling by not picking the optimal build. funny enough there is a meme guardian hammer build in GW2 that people take into raids successfully that literally just autoattacks
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 17:28
|
|
|
i had a build in gw1 that used all 8 skill slots for long lasting damage and armor buffs, and then used exclusively autoattacks to deal massive aoe damage while leeching life, it was amazing. especially in pvp because the more people tried to overwhelm me, the more life it was leeching. more builds like that please e: oops, gw1 not 2 Truga fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Mar 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 17:31
|
|
|
also the most popular build in the game is condition virtuoso, which can be played almost entirely reactively based on a couple intuitive guidelines. have mind knife? use mind knife. i think people sometimes overstate how many grand piano rotations are in modern mmos when a lot of the time they're relegated to specific builds players can opt into
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 17:35
|
|
|
Catgirl Al Capone posted:funny enough there is a meme guardian hammer build in GW2 that people take into raids successfully that literally just autoattacks I figured there was at least one, in retrospect. Alas.
|
|
#
?
Mar 13, 2024 18:03
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:hahah you weren't kidding lol this looks like complete rear end.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 07:17
|
|
|
the MMORPG subreddit is insanely stoked for it. I don't think there's any genre community that sucks down slop as enthusiastically as MMO players starved for a decent game https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/1be6y6s/runescape_creator_andrew_cower_unveils_new_mmo/
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 17:48
|
|
|
It's genuinely sad because I can't think of any other genre that used to be a dominant genre, one that was the game some people liked the most that just ... Doesn't exist any more? Like, RTSs have fallen from grace, but new ones, and very good ones, still come out. Same for flight sims, complicated western style RPGs etc etc. Your EQ, WoW, CoH style MMOs just doesn't exist any more, it's really kind of nuts that a decent ish AA incarnation made by a stable and competent dev team has never materialized. Boomer shooter, myst-like, rogue like, you can find very good versions of all of these, but not an"traditional" tab targeting MMO.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 18:02
|
|
|
Yeah it’s a singular failing of the game industry. You’d think at least a subgenre like MMOFPS games would be limping along but somehow there are only two of them and one is more than 20 years old (WW2O). That’s why I feel confident Monsters and Memories is gonna make loving bank and succeed past their wildest expectations - it’s a competent, attractive, functional product and literally the only one out there if you don’t like FFXIV and aren’t still playing EQ
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 18:51
|
|
|
I don't think it's possible to kill rts's because if you decide you don't like StarCraft 2 anymore and another one comes out you only need you and enough people to run a matchmaking queue to like it in order to have fun. SC2's network effects help SC2 but they don't hurt other RTS's to a massive extent. Even more so with single player games. MMOs depend on a fairly large number of players for the game to even function unless you make the game work ok with just a couple dozen people online, so large competitors hanging around can kill the genre. I think if you want to run a successful MMO you need a tiny world with tiny servers that frequently changes in order to raise the population density enough for the game to work.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 19:42
|
|
|
This is also why open pvp "wolf and sheep" MMOs suffer: you can only make progress at sheep activities when the population density falls below a certain level so people will quit until the density is low enough to make the game not work. E: also why Eve and Albion have figured out the formula of having PvE areas and guild v guild focus: players spend a large percentage of their time in high density areas, either the areas with limited pvp or guild strongholds. They don't dump you into a low density server and say "hope you enjoy it" 30.5 Days fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 14, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 19:44
|
|
|
You don't need THAT many people for a healthy MMO. Turtle wow only has one PvE server, right? How many people do you need for a healthy wow server, a thousand per faction? Five? Every time I log onto Turtle WoW to play it's fine, there are players in every zone and I can do whatever I want.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 19:52
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:You don't need THAT many people for a healthy MMO. Turtle wow only has one PvE server, right? How many people do you need for a healthy wow server, a thousand per faction? Five? Every time I log onto Turtle WoW to play it's fine, there are players in every zone and I can do whatever I want. According to turtle wows graphs, max concurrents is a little over 5000 every single day. It's difficult to turn that into MAU but 100,000 or more is very likely. E: I don't know how many people an MMO needs to maintain a stable population but I don't think it's lower than 50,000. 30.5 Days fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 14, 2024 |
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 20:08
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:You don't need THAT many people for a healthy MMO. Turtle wow only has one PvE server, right? How many people do you need for a healthy wow server, a thousand per faction? Five? Every time I log onto Turtle WoW to play it's fine, there are players in every zone and I can do whatever I want. Stability of population means more then anything. If your holding stable with low turnover (people leaving and never logging on) a PVP server would be fairly strong. Obviously you need a reason for people to be in zones, MMOs using the leveling argument fail here since you need low and high zones and reasons to come back to each. EvE generally succeeds because you have areas of safty to PVE (with some PVP) and those areas are low income and then enticing high income areas that people will try various means to get into for the return vs low income areas. I had more fun stealth mining some alliances back yard in their off time then ever got from forced PVP.
|
|
#
?
Mar 14, 2024 20:30
|
|
|
I never played any variation of Runescape but looking at the new game from the creator makes me think it's just a logical iteration off of Runescape? That is, not especially impressive graphics and lots of jobs where you make number go up? So I could see a subset of old Runescape players who want to "go back" to those days be for it? (I guess for personal context, my first "MMO" was some private server variation of Ragnarok Online or Phantasy Star Online and then Anarchy Online when it went free in 2004)
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 01:25
|
|
|
Frog Act posted:the MMORPG subreddit is insanely stoked for it. I don't think there's any genre community that sucks down slop as enthusiastically as MMO players starved for a decent game That's a pretty dead subreddit with next to no comments about the game..100-170 upvotes is pretty much nobody gives a poo poo, but yes we could all use a non-poo poo mmo but maybe that golden age has passed.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 01:45
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:You don't need THAT many people for a healthy MMO. Turtle wow only has one PvE server, right? How many people do you need for a healthy wow server, a thousand per faction? Five? Every time I log onto Turtle WoW to play it's fine, there are players in every zone and I can do whatever I want. AFAIK FFXI back in the day had a max of about 4-5k people per server. I don't remember seeing more than 2k online on a server at once, but these are 20 years old memories so... But you absolutely can make an mmo server feel packed and lively with that many people if you design the game properly. Hell I don't know how you do an old school more field based mmo and make it work with more than that.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 02:14
|
|
|
Eimi posted:AFAIK FFXI back in the day had a max of about 4-5k people per server. I don't remember seeing more than 2k online on a server at once, but these are 20 years old memories so... But you absolutely can make an mmo server feel packed and lively with that many people if you design the game properly. Hell I don't know how you do an old school more field based mmo and make it work with more than that. I know this isn't news to anyone in the thread, but of course WoW split it's player base in two, and there's no need for that if you're doing a purely PvE game. EQ was essentially PvE, right? Like sure you can gank someone I guess? But it wasn't faction based like wow?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 03:18
|
|
|
Jack B Nimble posted:I know this isn't news to anyone in the thread, but of course WoW split it's player base in two, and there's no need for that if you're doing a purely PvE game. Not quite, in original EverQuest, some races liked each other and others did not. It was not necessarily split up by faction or alliances. One of the other cool things they did was that every race had their own language. So players couldn’t necessarily talk to one another if they were different races. You could teach your language to another player though with a simple /command. You can also increase your standing with racial factions and then be able to enter their cities. Like trolls and ogres couldn’t enter Qeynos, but with enough effort and grinding a player of that race eventually could. There was also religion, that could prevent you from entering cities or even just certain parts of a city, where previously you were able to. The class you chose also played a part in where you could go. I dont think any of these mechanics are in the game now?
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 03:40
|
|
|
I said come in! posted:Not quite, in original EverQuest, some races liked each other and others did not. It was not necessarily split up by faction or alliances. One of the other cool things they did was that every race had their own language. So players couldn’t necessarily talk to one another if they were different races. You could teach your language to another player though with a simple /command. On TLPs everything you say is still the case. As a Human SK I get attacked by a gnome who hates my religion, Then the guards help him (LOL). Otherwise I am safe in the Human and Darkelf city's. If you use the Dark Elf Illusion mask, you get some fun stuff like going to various evil places. Downside here is that they still know who you follow as a religion.
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 05:42
|
|
|
Groovelord Neato posted:hahah you weren't kidding very excited you guys keep your EQ and UO clones, let me have this one
|
|
#
?
Mar 15, 2024 10:24
|
|
|
Happy 25th birthday Everquest.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 00:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 28, 2024 13:59 |
|
|
I think that might be the only game where it's anniversary doesn't make me feel old. I'm always surprised how late it came out.
|
|
#
?
Mar 17, 2024 08:31
|
|
