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PT6A posted:Yeah, it's certainly not all non-profits, but a lot of them rely on guilt and the idea that you're contributing to making the world a better place, to exploit the gently caress out of employees. Like I said, I work for far too low pay for a bunch of the schools. I could phrase it like they are guilting me out of it, but it seems legitimately like me squeezing an extra 5000 or whatever out of them would help me very marginally and hurt them very greatly. Like in some pure economic terms clearly the one room school s robbing me of my labor and I should guillotine them for paying less than market rates and taking the sweat of my brow. But like, who cares? I don't care. Some stuff DOES make the world a better place but isn't economical to fund and taking very low pay is a way to split the difference between doing something as pure volunteer work and demanding market rates for the labor. Me squeezing a few more dollars out of that school isn't really going to change my economic situation but everyone getting paid correctly WOULD change their economic situation. So everyone getting paid, but not really is the compromise that leaves everyone pretty okay.
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Sep 5, 2018 15:59
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Like I said, I work for far too low pay for a bunch of the schools. I could phrase it like they are guilting me out of it, but it seems legitimately like me squeezing an extra 5000 or whatever out of them would help me very marginally and hurt them very greatly. Yeah, it's obviously a balance. There's a difference between doing what you're doing, or helping out a friend for below-market-rate or something, and a non-profit offering a full-time job at clearly exploitative wages and guilting employees into staying. What you're doing is essentially charity -- think of it as giving the difference between what you are making and what you could be making -- and charity is one of humanity's most noble callings, but it shouldn't be a full-time gig.
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Sep 5, 2018 16:25
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glowing-fish posted:One thing that is somewhat ironic about university versus blue collar work, is that to me, university takes a lot less "preparation". The tools you need to study in a university are tools that are everywhere, and are often free or cheap. Like if you want to read literature or learn about history, even a small town public library probably has enough to get a curious young teen a big head start. You can be intellectual for cheap. With things like science and math and technology, you do kind of need some type of facilities, but you can still learn a lot of the principles behind things like electronics, even if you can't practice. So with those types of things, you can study and learn on your own. Contrast that with something like learning to drive a forklift...you can't just go to the local library and check out a forklift or a welding kit. Those type of things require connections and structured programs to learn about. As a teenager, I learned the principles of electronics from Isaac Asimov books (which cost me a dollar each at a thrift store), but I never got a chance to look at a circuit or get hands-on experience. I became academic not because I was middle class, but because of the opposite. Yeah. I'm sure this is class issue as well, but most of the experience I had with working on things before I entered the trade came from either working with my dad on stuff around the house, or working on cars. Which, obviously isnt an experience people who dont own a house or can afford to fix their own cars would have. Though this is why is why I really think Itd ve a good idea to have these classes covered at schools again. I'm not sure how it works elsewhere, but in Florida, the Vo-tech school there had a thing with the local high schools were you could take a class or two there, which allowed them to take stuff like HVAC, welding, electrician courses, etc,which I thought was pretty neat.
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Sep 5, 2018 16:38
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ExplodingSims posted:I'm not sure how it works elsewhere, but in Florida, the Vo-tech school there had a thing with the local high schools were you could take a class or two there, which allowed them to take stuff like HVAC, welding, electrician courses, etc,which I thought was pretty neat. In many Florida counties they've chased of the people who pushed for those programs and / or wrote the grants for them.
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Sep 5, 2018 16:49
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PT6A posted:Yeah, it's obviously a balance. There's a difference between doing what you're doing, or helping out a friend for below-market-rate or something, and a non-profit offering a full-time job at clearly exploitative wages and guilting employees into staying. What you're doing is essentially charity -- think of it as giving the difference between what you are making and what you could be making -- and charity is one of humanity's most noble callings, but it shouldn't be a full-time gig. I think if it's guilt or charity kinda just depends how you feel about doing it. If they got mean or demanding my opinion would shift I'm sure. I kinda feel like even in a better world where schools were funded correctly it'd still be a place to work that made you less than going and working at a corporate office or something. If everyone was a perfect paperclip machine optimized to make money i think a lot of places that did good stuff would be stuck with no employees or only employees sorted down to the bottom of their profession. Part of the pay is like, supporting the thing. Where that breaks between charity and exploitation is kinda just, whatever you feel at the time.
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Sep 5, 2018 16:53
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:If everyone was a perfect paperclip machine optimized to make money i think a lot of places that did good stuff would be stuck with no employees or only employees sorted down to the bottom of their profession. Part of the pay is like, supporting the thing. Where that breaks between charity and exploitation is kinda just, whatever you feel at the time. And that's how most charity operations work.
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Sep 5, 2018 17:03
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For people who are in the trades, is 50k the starting salary and then it rises to like 70k after a few years or is that basically the wage throughout the career? Cause friends who are teachers usually make between 45-50k and still need second jobs to make ends meet. Maybe that's all from University debt, but it still seems like 50k is not enough for them to live well.
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Sep 5, 2018 17:32
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Ccs posted:For people who are in the trades, is 50k the starting salary and then it rises to like 70k after a few years or is that basically the wage throughout the career? It depends on the trade and location, but the 50K number is just a baseline. If you're union, you get yearly raises, and most decent companies will give a $1-2 raise as well. And that's not factoring in overtime and such. The other thing is, once you get a few years of experience, it's not hard to get another job with another company, and increase your pay as you jump around. Of course, this has it's own issues, as it might not look great on a resume if you have 10 different companies listed. I've personally known a few people making over 100k as well, but their be doing this for a while.
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Sep 5, 2018 17:45
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Ccs posted:For people who are in the trades, is 50k the starting salary and then it rises to like 70k after a few years or is that basically the wage throughout the career? This is a pretty complicated question, but I'll try my best to go bit by bit. Most tradesman start as a 0 experience non-skilled apprentice. Salary ranges for this can vary pretty widely, but at least $15 an hour is what I'd want if I was starting out being the whole living wage number thingy. From there the big upside is that a huge amount of "schooling" comes from the apprenticeship work, and perhaps night school or correspondence school for book learning. So education costs are more in the mid 4 digit range instead of mid 5 digits. For my apprentices they have to work 4 years as an apprentice, and complete a correspondence course before they can sit for their state license exam. The correspondence course is like $1400.00 ($350 per year), but we reimburse the costs upon completion of each year. Once you've gotten your license(or equivalent experience in non license states) then salary again can vary a bit from state to state, but should be around the $50k mark. From there salary is pretty heavily based on years of experience, and frankly skill level. If you really know your poo poo and can run jobs/order parts/layout systems you can start asking for $70k really fast. Whether or not this is a wage to live well probably falls outside of the scope of this thread, but considering the median income for the country is $30k its better than nothing.
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Sep 5, 2018 18:13
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roomforthetuna posted:If the person who runs the charity makes a lot more money from the charity-work than you, a charity employee, then you're getting to do both charity and being exploited by wealthy people. That sounds like a thing for a non-profit that actually runs a business and makes profits and is more non-profit in name only. For an organization like a school that just doesn't make money it's hard to figure out a structure by which like, the principal is pocketing the money I make off the kids or something. It's just not built like that.
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Sep 5, 2018 18:37
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That sounds like a thing for a non-profit that actually runs a business and makes profits and is more non-profit in name only. For an organization like a school that just doesn't make money it's hard to figure out a structure by which like, the principal is pocketing the money I make off the kids or something. It's just not built like that.
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Sep 5, 2018 18:55
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roomforthetuna posted:Agreed. I wasn't speaking to your situation specifically, just pointing out that you can't really generalize that working for a charity is donating the rest of your potential salary to that charity - in many cases it's donating the rest of your potential salary to the CEO's family, just like at a regular business. (Except that there's a cap on it for nonprofits, but that cap is somewhere over $1M per person so eh.) There are charities that are just flat scams. Those exist. I think a lot of those millionares are still working under market rates though. Like a guy making 1 million a year that is doing work that would get him 5 million a year anywhere else. The market rate of CEOs is absurd and wrong in general, but I think a lot of charities still expect you to take a large paycut even if the objective number of dollars you get is high. Like everyone is making like half what they could if they worked for raw money, even if the CEO type means that "half" still means "way too much".
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Sep 5, 2018 19:28
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Not for profits have to have a mission. They can also make alot of money and operate like a business. But they have to do something with the money, in service of the mission or to pay the employees. The one I work for redistributes the profit at the end of the year as a bonus (after it over funds the pension) to the employees. It's pretty great.
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Sep 5, 2018 20:31
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:President is a literal baby, so what?
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Sep 6, 2018 15:58
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President braindead, so what?
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Sep 6, 2018 16:03
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poo poo wrong thread.
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Sep 6, 2018 16:56
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BrandorKP posted:poo poo wrong thread. Well, its a good example of a very abusive work environment...
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Sep 6, 2018 18:16
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