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And we're back. If you missed the first fight thread or you're feeling nostalgic, check out the OP from last year, it's still a good summary of the fighters and what this fight means. I'll catch you up what's happened since in this thread. Seriously, go read that, Ninth is a much better hypeman than myself. Boxing isn't like other sports; without a set schedule, every event has to be carefully arranged. What this means is that most of the time fighters aren't actually fighting. They're going through a tedious process of negotiating, renegotiating and playing the media for any additional leverage. What I'm saying here is you know that stupid bullshit you see every time you watch boxing? That's most of the sport. So here we are, if you've followed close you know all the narratives, if not you might be better off. It's a fight that has been in the making for years. Fighters vacating their belts to avoid mandatory fights, outlandish scorecards, positive drug tests, garbage filler fights, constant chatter about percent splits. After all of this frankly exhausting discussion, it's easy to lose track of the reason we're here: This is a really good fight  Seriously. The first fight was FOTY material. Gennady Golovkin and Saul Alvarez are two of the best fighters in the world and they met as equals last year. Both men made multiple shifts and adjustments across the 12 rounds for some classic action. True, it wasn't exactly an all out war, but few fights at this level really are. Despite everything that's happened since that night, I see no reason this fight shouldn't be even better. If nothing else, the stakes are much higher. In the first fight there were a few momentum shifts back and forth and if you want to see more analysis of that, there are plenty of videos out there to find. The quick version is that GGG started slow, found a lot of success in the middle rounds and Canelo came on strong in the last few. Golovkin effectively worked the jab to come forward for most of the fight, while Canelo fought off the back foot and made good use of pivots to avoid punches while landing some of the biggest shots of the fight. Despite this, Canelo tended to only land single big shots, while GGG was able to chip away with a greater volume of less accurate punches. In the end, they had a similar number of landed power punches, but GGG far and away led the jab count. It was clear both fighters had tremendous amounts of respect for each other in the ring, both were cagey wily. When the dust settled, most people felt Golovkin clearly won rounds 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9 and Canelo clearly won rounds 2 and 12 leaving rounds 1, 3, 6, 10 and 11 less decisive. The most majority of cards had GGG winning 8-4 or 7-5. Some had it wider, some had it tied. Canelo and his promoter both though Canelo won 7-5. None of these opinions mattered though. The only opinions were that of the judges: 7-5 GGG, 6-6 and the absolutely ludicrous 10-2 Canelo.  In the year since, a lot of stuff has happened. Alvarez tested positive for a banned substance and blamed it on tainted meat in mexico, dropping from the rematch. Golovkin dropped a belt to avoid fighting his mandatory challenger, instead taking on the fading junior middleweight Vanes Martirosyan. Since then, there's been all sorts of news and bad beef between these two. From what I can tell, it's not just promotional stuff, these guys seem to really dislike each other. As I alluded to before, the stakes are even higher now. If Golovkin gets the win here, it's vindication after getting snubbed the first time, if he loses, then he's going into the end of his career without a signature win. If Canelo wins, there's a decent argument for him being at or near the top of the P4P list and his career is elevated even further. A loss here reaffirms what many fans felt about the first fight and means that he's lost the two biggest fights of his career. Canelo is young enough that he has time to recover, but it'll clearly set him on a different path.  So how is it going to go this time? Here are a few things I think might make the difference, so here they are: Adjustments Typically a rematch is defined by what adjustments, if any, the fighters make. These guys are both top level, intelligent boxers, so they will make adjustments. Most experts believe that Canelo has the greatest ability to make changes as the younger fighter with a more diverse set of skills to draw on. Canelo draws some favour specifically as the counter puncher in this match-up, and counter punchers tend to do better in rematches. It's not all bad for Golovkin though, he seemed to start the fight worried about Canelo's power punching and he ended the fight without any respect for it at all. If GGG thinks Canelo can't hurt him, he may start the fight much more aggressively and pick up rounds he didn't last time. The first fight also saw Golovkin throw an uncharacteristically small number of body shots, but the camp seems to be suggesting they'll throw more this time. If that's true, the fight becomes much harder for Canelo. Physical status Golovkin is only getting older and many people think he's been on a decline in these last few years. If that's true and he shows up for this fight having lost a step from last year, it's easy to see a fresher Alvarez getting the better of him. On Canelo's side, there are two things to watch here. Having failed a high profile drug test at the beginning of the year, he's being tested much more rigorously now than he was before. If he was on the gear in his first fight, he's off it now. Clen is usually used for weight cutting and stamina. Alvarez is typically very good at weight cutting to be the biggest size possible when fight time comes, while his comparatively poor stamina is what lost him many rounds the first time. Another factor here I don't see discussed much involves a knee surgery Canelo had earlier in the year. He's had off and on knee trouble for much of his career. This one could go either way, it might be indicative of a worsening knee injury but having the knee surgery might mean that he's been able to fix an issue that's been plaguing him for a while. The Judges The judges were an unfortunately large part of the discussion last year. Byrd's 10-2 Canelo scorecard was one of the worst in boxing and a few side eyes were cast at Don Trella's strange decision to give Canelo round 7. I'm personally of the opinion that the judging is better in rematches like this, since everybody is more aware of the fuckery from the previous fight. I've never seen two robberies in a row myself, but I don't want to say it's impossible. I'll go over the judges involved in this and try to figure where they stand, although I have my own biases that will heavily colour my perspective. The only returning judge is Dave Moretti, also the only judge to score the fight for Golovkin. Moretti has clearly been brought back because the powers that be believe he got the first fight right, and it's difficult to dispute that. It's hard to say a judge is always on point, because the nature of judging is subjective, but Moretti is a decent judge who is pretty even keel. I think you could disagree on a round or two with him and he has a particular habit of scoring fights closer than others would have it, but he usually gets the right man. That's not to say he hasn't had weird cards in the past, but every judge has a weird card in the books somewhere. I'll consider him a neutral judge in this bout. Notable recent decisions: Rungvisai-Estrada 114-114, Pacquiao-Vargas 114-113, Munguia-Smith 117-110, Hurd-Lara 114-113 The next judge for this fight is Glenn Feldman. Feldman is another decent judge, well regarded for his professional demeanor. He's similar to Moretti in his cards and nature. That said he's been involed in a few difficult to judge fights where I thought he came away with the wrong decision. His scoring of DeGale-Jack, Gonzalez-Rungvisai and Hooker-Perez particularly stand out as cases where he came out with a card I thought was wrong. I'm not exactly sure where his biases lie, it seems like in some fights he likes the flashier, slicker work a boxer does, but does give credit to guys who just bulldoze. Not really sure which side he'll see in this fight, but I've got a feeling he'll lean Canelo. Notable recent decisions: DeGale-Jack 114-112, Hurd-Lara 114-113 Gonzalez-Rungvisai 112-114 Hooker-Perez 114-114 Steve Weisfeld is the last judge on the card. He's got the lowest podindex score, for whatever that's worth. Looking at his decisions though, I'm not seeing anything stand out too badly. His preference seem to favour come forward fighters, and I think he actually gave GGG a generous score against Jacobs, so I'll put him as a lean Golovkin judge. Notable recent decisions: DeGale-Jack 113-113, Golovkin-Jacobs 115-112, Joshua-Klitschko 93-95 (before KO) Overall, these are all quality judges. You can find nits to pick and the occasional wide card, but nobody here has a history of a particularly egregious card.  Videos To Watch Just the basics here. The first fight, which again, is a very good watch. The HBO 24/7, a really great combination between a documentary and a hype video E: Actually one more, Lee Wylie's tactical analysis of the fight, which functions as both a highlight recap of the first fight and a perspective on what each fighter might look to change in the rematch Jump King fucked around with this message at 19:15 on Sep 15, 2018 |
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Sep 15, 2018 18:37
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 Undercard Preview This undercard is really solid. Three fights of escalating significance, all with action potential. Roman Gonzalez vs Moises Fuentes, Super Flyweight (115lbs) This is the return og Roman Gonzalez(46-2-0) to the ring after a year out of action and we're not really sure where "Chocolatito" is at. He was commonly thought of as the best boxer in the world before his two losses to Srisaket Sor Rungvisai. His first fight against Srisaket was a rough affair that most people felt like Gonzalez should have won, but he went life and death with an unknown guy and left it in the hands of the judges. The rematch wasn't close at all, Gonzalez looked gunshy from the opening bell and got smashed to pieces. Srisaket has gone on to be seen as the consensus number one fighter in the division and is continuing to bulldoze through more technically proficient boxers, so the loss is maybe not as bad as it looked last year. There was also a lot of other poo poo going on in Gonzalez's life at the time, including the death of his lifelong trainer and guardian so there's also an argument that the timing was bad for Gonzalez. Gonzalez is 31 now, which isn't too old, but as a smaller fighter he's rapidly nearing the end of his prime and potentially his whole career. The point is that we're not sure which Gonzalez is showing up, a pound for pound generational talent or a worn down shade of himself. When Gonzalez is at his best, he's an offensive wizard, putting together crazy combinations while constantly coming forward. He's great at mixing up angles and punch speeds, allowing him to put together very fun Pacquiao-esque performances. Moises Fuentes(25-5-1) isn't a walkover opponent though. On paper he's the inferior fighter, but he's a former titleholder with good experience. Fuentes has come up short against all the biggest names he's fought. There's no shame in losing fights to guys like Daigo Higa, Kosei Tanaka and Donnie Nietes though, they are all top level elite fighters in their divisions. The thing is, Gonzalez should be a top level elite talent too. Fuentes is larger than Gonzalez and has a better reach, so this could pose a problem for a Chocolatito shaking off ring rust. Regardless of whether or not Gonzalez has to struggle for this one, it should be a fun fight. Jaime Munguia vs Brandon Cook, Light Middleweight (154lbs) WBO Super Welterweight Title Fight Jaime Munguia(30-0-0) is one of the fastest rising prospects in the sport right now. At age 21, he's still developing into what looks like a potentially long lasting career. The world at large didn't really know too much about him at the beginning of the year, even when there was talk of him subbing in against Golovkin in the May fight. Since then he captured a light middleweight title by smashing Sadam Ali to pieces and then defended it against a very game Liam Smith. These were both solid wins, cementing his status as a force to watch. This fight is a comparative step backwards, but this is Munguia's 5th fight of the year and he's aiming to fight in December too, so it's hard to turn your nose up at the work ethic. It should be fun since Munguia is a pretty aggressive come forward fighter with what I can charitably describe as a developing defence. Brandon Cook(20-1-0) is Canada's best light middleweight fighter, which is an accomplishment, but not one that means a whole lot on this stage. I'll be honest here, I've never seen Cook fight, but based on his record he looks like a pretty game fighter and his singular loss to Kanat Islam in Astana isn't the worst. He'll be here to win, but make no mistake, this should be a showcase fight for Munguia. David Lemieux vs Gary O'Sullivan, Middleweight (160lbs) David Lemieux(39-4-0) is in a weird place in the middleweight division. He's a former titleholder, but after one sided losses to Gennady Golovkin and Billie Joe Saunders it's become clear that he's never going to be part of the best of the best in the division. On the other hand, it's impossible to argue that he's not in the top 10 of the division. I think this is partially based on his style and strengths. He has what is quite possibly the strongest punch in the division but he's completely dependent on it. Most people who get hit with one of his short hooks are in for a very bad night, but anybody skilled enough to avoid it or hit first has a good chance of winning. Lemieux's power is such that he can never really be discounted in a fight, and will always pose a threat. Gary O'Sullivan(28-2-0) has historically been regarded less, but his stock has risen a lot recently especially since his surprise destruction of Antonine Douglas last November. He's hovering around the edge of the top 10 right along with Lemieux. In the past, he's also struggled to crack into the elite of the division, losing cleanly to Saunders and Eubank in the past. O'Sullivan is a well rounded fighter with good boxing ability, but he's also something of a natural brawler. O'Sullivan has some of the tools he'd need to beat Lemieux, but it's not clear if he can do it while avoiding the heavy shots that'll be coming his way. If he begins to brawl, things get even worse for him. This fight is pretty even, it's difficult to tell exactly which way it'll come down, but a lot of people believe that O'Sullivan's style plays right into Lemieux's strengths. In addition to being a fun fight, this match up also has some relevance to the division. The winner will have a quality name notched up and will once again get their chance to tackle the top fighters as a credible contender. It's thought that since both fighters are with Golden Boy, the winner might fight Canelo. TL;DR: Gonzalez vs Fuentes: Is Roman Gonzalez still one of the best fighters in the world? Munguia vs Cook: Watch an up and coming fighter make a big splash Lemieux vs O'Sullivan: A fun, hopefully action filled fight between two middleweights just outside of the elite, winner might fight Canelo. Jump King fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Sep 15, 2018 |
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Sep 15, 2018 18:37
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Thanks for freeing me up to do stuff with my day. I was maybe like a third done and probably wouldn't have finished cause I just had no motivation Going to be buying this one at home so no one can see me cry like a baby when GGG gets sparked out
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Sep 15, 2018 18:50
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I hope Adelaide Byrd is judging this one too
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Sep 15, 2018 19:05
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Power of Pecota posted:I hope Adelaide Byrd is judging this one too ____________/ WHAT? 
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Sep 15, 2018 19:10
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feel like canelo is going to win, just to ruin my weekend
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Sep 15, 2018 19:16
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Power of Pecota posted:I hope Adelaide Byrd is judging this one too I specifically talked about each judge! thehappyprince posted:feel like canelo is going to win, just to ruin my weekend Golovkin is once again the favourite here, odds wise at least. But a lot of experts have the feeling Canelo has more to offer in the rematch. I've got a bad feeling about that too. Jump King fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Sep 15, 2018 |
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Sep 15, 2018 19:16
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Power of Pecota posted:I hope Adelaide Byrd is judging this one too Mods??????
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Sep 15, 2018 19:50
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chaoslord posted:Mods?????? I say that as someone who placed a large bet on GGG for the first fight and probably won't be watching this one to avoid PTSD
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Sep 15, 2018 19:58
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Super excited for this fight. If it's even close to the quality of the last one, it'll be one of the greats. Hoping GGG can take it this time.
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Sep 15, 2018 21:37
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The pre undercard is streaming on Youtube rn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SLvL5pkkUw
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Sep 15, 2018 23:14
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A few good prospects and three guys named ortiz, nice
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Sep 15, 2018 23:19
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i run a book on the strip and this fight has brought out more casual bettors than any action we've seen since mayweather/mcgregor. rooting for the draw. sad we have no adelaide byrd in the picture.
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Sep 15, 2018 23:22
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I didn't realize the tagline for this bout was "Final Judgement" which is pretty on the nose, wish I knew this when making the thread title. This poor announcer is struggling on the youtube livestream
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Sep 15, 2018 23:42
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Fellow posters: for my fight eats should I order a pizza or get a poo poo ton (like $15) worth of Taco Bell?
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Sep 15, 2018 23:59
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One thing to think about as well is Canelo being so angry and that making him slip up somewhere.
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Sep 16, 2018 00:00
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The SituAsian posted:Fellow posters: for my fight eats should I order a pizza or get a poo poo ton (like $15) worth of Taco Bell? pizza will last longer
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Sep 16, 2018 00:01
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Looks like they couldn't get the first ref, Kenny Bayless, to return because of scheduling and, after some arguing between camps, brought out a lesser known referee, Benjy Esteves: https://www.cbssports.com/boxing/news/canelo-vs-ggg-2-fight-referee-judges-tapped-to-officiate-the-highly-anticipated-rematch/
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Sep 16, 2018 00:07
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The SituAsian posted:Fellow posters: for my fight eats should I order a pizza or get a poo poo ton (like $15) worth of Taco Bell? porque no los dos
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Sep 16, 2018 00:11
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great OP. The first fight was real fun minus the stupid decision ( although that made posting a more fun too). Watching the 24/7 now and LOL at the guy in Avlarez's team straight face explaining how the banned stuff came from some beef because "we just don't know what people put in animals these days."
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Sep 16, 2018 00:26
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It is a known thing that happens in mexico with clenbuteral specifically but is almost surely bullshit I agree
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Sep 16, 2018 00:56
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Kill me if this ends in a draw.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:02
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Calling a fight that ended with a terrible judges decision THE FINAL JUDGMENT is a bit on the nose.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:06
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The SituAsian food update: Ordered a meatball & onion pizza with extra sauce and some bread. Holy poo poo Chocolatito is weighing in at 130. He must feel like a loving blob.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:06
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seiferguy posted:Kill me if this ends in a draw. i took it at 16 to 1 to end in a draw for $20
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Sep 16, 2018 01:15
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seiferguy posted:Kill me if this ends in a draw.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:21
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RRRRROMAN!!! Let's go, bud
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Sep 16, 2018 01:22
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Learning a lot about divorce in boxing here!
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Sep 16, 2018 01:24
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It was funny when Roy Jones was talking about all the things Chocolatito has gone through. He thinks a trainer is the closest person to a fighter and their wife is the 2nd closest.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:25
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It's going to be SO sad when Chocolatito gases and some wannabe Mexico City Uber-he apparently only took this fight because he needed to buy a car to drive- driver takes him out EDIT: Well good for Chocolate Tito, at least he's not completely washed yet The SituAsian fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Sep 16, 2018 |
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Sep 16, 2018 01:27
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I'm very upset by how Choclatito's career has gone.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:28
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KidDynamite posted:I'm very upset by how Choclatito's career has gone. same. i thought the first rungvisai fight was a lot like mighty mouse's recent loss: a lovely way for a great champion to have his streak broken. the second fight though... drat.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:31
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Little drama show is back
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Sep 16, 2018 01:31
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Hell yeah, good win
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Sep 16, 2018 01:31
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good ko though.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:31
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ccubed posted:It was funny when Roy Jones was talking about all the things Chocolatito has gone through. He thinks a trainer is the closest person to a fighter and their wife is the 2nd closest. The line "it's sad to lose those closest to you... or who you THINK is closest to you" is hilarious though.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:32
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seiferguy posted:The line "it's sad to lose those closest to you... or who you THINK is closest to you" is hilarious though. lol he's still mad that that dick pic got leaked
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Sep 16, 2018 01:33
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That owned
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Sep 16, 2018 01:33
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That KO was really good, but I don't know if it's a motivation or mental thing that start was really slow.
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Sep 16, 2018 01:34
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Good to see lil chocolate bounce back
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Sep 16, 2018 01:34
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