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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
10 episodes still seems okay but I'd be worried about it going down further. Doctor Who's a show about going anywhere in time and space, you wanna have enough episodes to get a nice hoparound feel. The shorter 6 and under seasons are better suited for really heavy arc-driven shows.

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
A strong episode, though my enjoyment was definitely hindered by BBC America's presentation. 30+ minutes of ads and not even music at the end? Same bullshit as last season, they're so bad at this.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I like that we got a full episode of Jodie in the 12th Doctor's clothes because, as good as the new outfit is, she was pulling that off.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Tiggum posted:

No, it was still dumb. Why does a grown adult need his grandma there to watch him try to ride a bike? The reason he can't makes sense, but the grandparents were just there to make a stupid "he's an adult but he's doing a thing that kids do" joke.

They’re there for support to push him to keep trying despite his disability. It’s as much emotional support as anything.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Thought this was a good second ep. Strong visuals and a sense of a big overland journey, even if the plot ends up a bit compressed.

As for the TARDIS interior, I do like the overall crystal look, not sure about the lighting though.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I'm curious as to why the aliens built the shooting range and bioweapons lab under a strip mall.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Yeah historicals can share resources with the Beeb’s period dramas, but I don’t know how much this happens in practice. Rosa was probably quite expensive because I doubt there’s a lot of material there useful for the American South in the 1950s.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
The weakest of the season so far- feels like they got a little confused about what story they actually wanted to tell, and got caught between “scary monster movie” and “ah but who are the real monsters?”

That said shout out to Ryan doing shadow puppets in the spider lab.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
The one complaint I have now about the current console room is that it's very dark and that makes it feel a little claustrophobic (though it may be one of those cases where it's a small set and the underlighting is to hide that.) If it were a little brighter and a little more open it'd be perfect.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
It feels like they're still kinda trying to find their groove as a creative team. Like they're taking a very light touch because they don't want to tank it completely and have the first season with a female Doctor be the one that everyone hates.

Like they took a risk in doing a story about Rosa Parks, obviously, but that's a different kind of risktaking.

It's been enjoyable but so far nothing *great*.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
To me the “fixed point in time” thing worked primarily to answer questions like “why didn’t the Doctor stop [insert atrocity here]” and the whole not changing Earth history thing- trying to do more with it didn’t work for me.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I fear I was not as enthusiastic about this episode as everyone else, but it’s less down to the episode itself as the fact that we’ve had this exact same mid-episode “but here are the real villains (it’s man)” twist not two episodes before, and of course the previous episode had a monster that was basically innocent, etc. And again it’s an episode where the real villains can’t be stopped.

It’s a bit repetitive is all. They keep going for the same beats.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
“I’m such a comedian.”

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Bicyclops posted:

I really hate this idea, and it's been expressed a lot lately. People should be the villains about as often as the aliens are in Doctor Who, and there are as many different tracks to it as there are "The aliens are the bad guys."

It's not even a "twist," really, it's just the Doctor assembling information. This season in particular has done a great job with it - the real villains have been a corporation in charge of a contest, a white supremacist, a billionaire and a corporation that disobeys simple environmental procedures, a chronic illness and some outrageous military bureaucracy, and religious bigotry as a result of British imperialism. The sci-fi stuff - a hostile planet with death rags and robots, time travel, giant spiders, a very hungry alien on a spaceship, and some former intergalactic assassins - are just setting.

If something besides "the overtly hostile aliens are the bad guys" is all the same "beat," I think it's the reading that wrong, not the writing.

But it's specifically setting up one thing to look like the bad guys, then saying "Wait, no, here are the real villains". And those real villains are all pretty similar aren't they? You can't say there's no repetition in this at all and I think you're being unfairly dismissive. I just want a full on monster story in one episode, you know?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I dunno there just hasn’t been a good spooky story yet. It feels like they’re taking a lighter touch.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Cojawfee posted:

I think the spider thing was supposed to be spooky.

I think the problem was once they established the corrupt businessman angle, the spiders seemed pretty thoroughly robbed of menace. Like there’s ways to do monsters with an ecology message but they instantly went to “they’re totally innocent” and that was some heavy whiplash.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Look let's just assume she's got face blindness

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
See I feel the system being "defended" in this episode isn't capitalism, per se, but automation- the theme is "people being pushed out of jobs by machines", the guy doing all this isn't protesting because of capitalism but because workers are being replaced, and the point is the automation is not the problem. The problem with Amazon is not that it has drones, it's that Jeff Bezos is greedy. (Sure the corporate lady in this turns out okay, but she's not in charge, not really a good match for Bezos/Musk/etc.)

Now I'd say the episode fails to engage the idea that capitalism is the only real reason "computers replacing our jobs" is a problem- in theory we should be happy with Fully Automated Luxury Gay Space Communism- but I don't think that's the same as saying capitalism is good.

I'd honestly compare this most to Robots of Death. The Doctor doesn't fix the problems of the robot-dependent society there, he doesn't even really delve into the morality of this clearly decadent civilization relying on slave labor. Even in Oxygen, it's not like the Doctor actually fixes the system, they just tell the guys to go to the main office and raise a ruckus.

It's a little scattershot but I get what they were going for.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Yeah one thing I liked was the robots weren't really used as monsters- from the promos I expected they'd do the old 'smiling robots murder people' bit we saw last season, and they *sorta* did that but it wasn't the focus.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
On midday Sunday I always have to remind myself that the show's actually on in the UK now and not to read the thread until I've seen it.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
This was probably Jodie Whittaker's strongest episode yet- I'm not sure if it was produced as late in the season as it aired, and thus she's more comfortable with the role now, or if it's just a better showcase. She had some great moments (her reaction to "Apple bobbing!" was very Tennant) and this feels like the first time they confidently poke at the idea that, yeah, the Doctor wasn't always a woman and hasn't had to put up with sexism.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Yeah this was definitely the standout to me. This is what I want from Doctor Who, some crazy sci-fi shenanigans with the occasional emotional punch in there too. And also the Doctor making friends with a sentient universe that is also a frog.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I enjoyed the season finale quite a bit, even if the end got a little handwavey. It was the kind of goofy space opera I was in the mood for.

That said, yeah, 2020 is some bullshit. It's a hard show to produce, I get that, really I do, but something's really jamming the pipeline at this point.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I think the scripts for this season almost all had an early draft feel to them- like they’re fine but they’d really sing with some tightening. The Battle of.... etc has good bones but you can’t help but think “what if they trimmed down trying to restore the guy’s memory, and devoted that time to play up Graham’s conflict or the Doctor facing the ramifications of letting this guy get away and now look what he’s done, adding more emotional stakes” etc. There’s always a sense that yeah, you’ve got something, let’s go further with that, let’s develop it.

Maybe they’ll have more time next season and that will be good, I dunno. RTD’s first series was technically quite crude but had the emotional energy, Moffat’s was actually pretty assured which is why what came after seemed like a bit of a step down, this is feeling like they still have a lot of kinks to work out.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Wheat Loaf posted:

One thing Barry Letts wanted to do was draw on Pertwee's loooooooong experience as an all-round music hall veteran; the stage-fighting was part of that but I remember the info-text subtitles from the "Spearhead from Space" dvd mentioning that they were also keen for the Third Doctor to do conjuring tricks, sing and play the guitar, all of which Pertwee was apparently quite good at. It's too bad we never saw much of that!

I remember reading that because Pertwee’s background was in comedy, the people writing the first comics with his Doctor made them kinda silly and comedic, and were surprised when he played the role straight. (Though it made sense for him to do so relative to Troughton.)

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Big Mean Jerk posted:

I’d really like the trend of “Doctors regenerating in Christmas specials” to end with Jodie.

I'd like to go even further- when she does regenerate (and may that be a good long time from now), it should be outside the TARDIS, not have the typical T-posing, maybe a different visual effect at last?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I’ve been good with the ten episode series, it was just a bummer to hear of another delay on top of that.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
One small issue, they set up these two characters in love and then she’s possessed, so far so good, you figure this will be key to the climactic action of the story, but when she gets saved it’s kind of incidental? Like you figure RTD or Moffat would have milked that for a little more. But then it would interfere with the stuff with Ryan’s dad, so I’m not sure how best to resolve that.

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Gaz-L posted:

I like the Dalek's little grabby hand in place of the plunger.

And Bradley as Cockney geezer Doctor would probably have been great but too similar in a way to Capaldi.

Edit: And the Doctor being only barely passive-aggressive (in the sense that she was about a hair's width from outright aggression) to Ryan's dad was great.

See I interpreted that the other way- that “makes up for your lack of parenting” quip seemed like the Doctor briefly forgetting how humans talk as she historically has sometimes done.

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