|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Yes, and he accomplishes that without making any counterfactual statements. "It seems, in your anger, you killed her." Haven't you argued before that Padme self sacrificed or something like that? But whether it's that, or you buy into what the droid says, Vader did not kill Padme.
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 17:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 02:25 |
|
|
Though I suppose you could say “from a certain point of view”. Anakin’s turn to the dark side and her confrontation with him is what lead to her losing the will to carry on (however even on her death bed she still clung to the belief there was still good in him). But he did not physically kill her, no
Larryb fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Apr 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 18:43
|
|
|
He accused her of betrayal and choked her, and she lost her will to live. What Palpatine told him is true, from a certain point of view
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 18:48
|
|
|
That is stretching the limits of "not lying" more than I'm willing to. Palpatine was well aware that what he was telling Anakin was not true, and why he was doing it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 18:53
|
|
|
Well of course, Palpatine didn’t exactly know or care about what happened to Padme when he came to pick up Anakin. The fact she really did die due to emotional trauma is besides the point
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 19:13
|
|
|
I've seen a few people argue that Anakin coming 'back to life' as Vader somehow drained Padme of her life somehow. It was simply a coincidence that it happened as she was giving birth. But that's always felt off to me. Simpler explanation is it those scenes were just poorly written and clunky.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 19:29
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:"It seems, in your anger, you killed her." I was thinking to bring that up, as the sole exception that proves the rule, but didn't want to overcomplicate the point. Because the Padme thing is not exactly 'complicated', but it is nuanced. Why does Palpatine get it wrong? First question is, of course: what does Palpatine actually know? Padme dies in some kind of remote base, on an asteroid where the people have anti-imperial sympathies. The whole thing is kept secret. And, in order to be kept secret, there would need to be some official cover-story concerning Padme's disappearance. (Even before she dies, she might be considered an enemy of the state.) Padme's body is eventually transported to Naboo, where she is given a public funeral and made up to still appear pregnant, so people were going to need answers at some point. So, the simplest version of events is that Anakin killed her and the unborn children. That's the story that Palpatine was likely going off of. It is, of course, possible that Palpatine was able to detect the death somehow, as a 'disturbance in the Force' or whatever. There's not much evidence of that, but it's possible. If so, though, you have to ask why would Palpatine lie? To hurt Anakin? Why not just tell Anakin that Padme killed herself? If you go down this route, then my interpretation is that Palpatine literally cannot comprehend Padme's ethical stance. Her suicide is a pure revulsion, 'gently caress you' to the awful universe, a total embrace of powerlessness where she gains nothing. It's completely against what Palpatine stands for. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Apr 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 19:56
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It is, of course, possible that Palpatine was able to detect the death somehow, as a 'disturbance in the Force' or whatever. There's not much evidence of that, but it's possible. If so, though, you have to ask why would Palpatine lie? To hurt Anakin? Why not just tell Anakin that Padme killed herself? If you go down this route, then my interpretation is that Palpatine literally cannot comprehend Padme's ethical stance. Her suicide is a pure revulsion, 'gently caress you' to the awful universe, a total embrace of powerlessness where she gains nothing. It's completely against what Palpatine stands for. Again this is not complicated - the point is to increase Anakin's guilt, making him easier to control.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 20:01
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:Again this is not complicated - the point is to increase Anakin's guilt, making him easier to control. That's actually very complicated. Is Vader controllable because of guilt? How did you determine that? Why would saying 'you choked her to death' cause more guilt than 'you pushed her to kill herself'? Also, we again have the question of how would Palpatine keep that secret? There were actually a lot of witnesses to how Padme died, and the truth could reach Vader eventually. Why take the risk? Palpatine telling the truth, based on the information available to him, is the simpler explanation. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Apr 12, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 20:10
|
|
|
I think what is being overlooked is the power of the word "seems"
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 20:15
|
|
|
Lmao there is no way Vaderkin is winning that civil trial. "Why yes, I choked her into unconsciousness the day before but my personal doctor here will testify that she in fact died of 'losing the will to live'."
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 20:19
|
|
|
BizarroAzrael posted:I think what is being overlooked is the power of the word "seems"
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 20:46
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:That's actually very complicated.
|
|
#
?
Apr 12, 2024 21:51
|
|
|
Palpatine orders the invasion of Naboo and when asked if that is legal, says,"I will MAKE it legal!" but then he doesn't make it legal, and that's from his first ever appearance in the first ever Star Wars movie (the fourth one*), showcasing he's a liar right from the start! At the end of the movie, he says he is surprised to have been nominated the Supreme Chancellor, but this was actually his goal all along! No no no, I'm starting to suspect this Dread Lord High Sith of the Fascist Galactic Empire is not a noble person of integrity at all! * Not to be confused with the fourth movie, which is the first one.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 01:03
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Palpatine orders the invasion of Naboo and when asked if that is legal, says,"I will MAKE it legal!" but then he doesn't make it legal The “making it legal” is conditional on Gunray killing the Jedi and securing Amidala’s effective surrender, winning the conflict. Palpatine isn’t omniscient, and always has various backup plans. The original plan was implicitly to ‘legalize’ the invasion, and then pin the blame on Valorum (who has already been accused of corruption). Palpatine certainly didn’t anticipate that Gunray would be defeated through the heroism of Jar Jar Binks and this mutant kid - but it also doesn’t impede his big-picture goals. Gravitas Shortfall posted:No not really. Someone kills themselves, you can still partially blame the dead person. It was their choice. But telling Anakin that he killed Padme makes him turns that hatred directly on himself with no deflections. Vader hates himself, and has dealt with that hate by becoming Palpatine's monster. I talked about this earlier. There’s a difference between a simple explanation and a simplistic explanation. Claiming that Vader in the OT is motivated by a lie that made him feel guilty is the kind of interpretation that’s reductive and just raises more and more questions. Like, take this step by step here. You’re asserting that, if Palpatine had said “Padme killed herself”, this would fundamentally change Anakin’s characterization. Anakin would ‘deflect his self-hatred’ onto Padme, feel less guilty, and - consequently - lose his motivation to ‘be’ Vader. Connected to this is the assertion that Vader acts as he does as a form of self-degradation or self-punishment. That seems to be implying that Anakin never actually died in any respect, and the Vader persona is just a way for Anakin to self-harm. So, Luke in Episode 6 saves Anakin from drug-hatred by repeating “I love you daddy”, and then Anakin kills Palpatine - which is an act that cleanses him of his guilt, right? The problem there is there’s no sign of that guilt stuff in the OT films, at all. Rather than exploring the nuances of the character (his religious beliefs, etc.) your interpretation just generates a flagrant retcon in the last few minutes of the series. It was all a misunderstanding! SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:01 on Apr 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 04:57
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The “making it legal” is conditional on Gunray killing the Jedi and securing Amidala’s effective surrender, winning the conflict. He didn't need to anticipate anything. As you yourself say; He had backup plans. A big part of the Clone Wars and the lead up to it is none of it mattered; Any way it went, Palpatine would come out on top and be Big King Emperor of the Galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 05:11
|
|
|
Where's the idea that Padme killed herself come from? Its pretty obvious the droid was saying someone with the motivation to live may have survived the life-threatening injuries she suffered, but her child-birth and depressive state weakened her and she couldn't recover. Anakin absolutely killed Padme, you freaks.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 05:39
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Where's the idea that Padme killed herself come from? Its pretty obvious the droid was saying someone with the motivation to live may have survived the life-threatening injuries she suffered, but her child-birth and depressive state weakened her and she couldn't recover. Anakin absolutely killed Padme, you freaks. I think it's that if you squint "losing the ability to live" could be considered a conscious rather than unconscious act. SuperMechagodzilla posted:If you think about it for like two seconds, how would Palpatine hide such a lie from Darth Vader for over 20 years? Like, "uh, hey, Sheev? I've been reading through the ancient Sith texts, and I can't find any reference to a 'Darth Plagueis' anywhere...." Something I've always found interesting about the Sith is do they even have ancient texts? For a thousand years the Sith have consisted of two people at a time, maybe going up to five or six during breaches of protocol, schisms, etc. All it takes is one spaceship blowing up en route and there goes all the history of the Sith. How much of their own history are the Sith even aware of? They could have traditions that they believe to be thousands of years old that were actually made up by a Darth 30 years ago. I've always wanted some story about a Sith Lord who engineers some ultra-long-term scheme to join the Jedi, become a member of the council, and then 12 years into his 25 year scheme to turn the Jedi into his own Sith legion, a comet or something falls on him and all the Jedi are like, "Man, remember Master Florp? What an awesome guy, if only that comet hadn't fallen on him," having no idea of the bullet they dodged.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 05:56
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:
They'd have to somehow disguise themselves as very young for that to work, since the Jedi don't let anyone in under a certain age. Remember, they almost didn't let Anakin in for being 9.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 06:05
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:Where's the idea that Padme killed herself come from? Its pretty obvious the droid was saying someone with the motivation to live may have survived the life-threatening injuries she suffered, but her child-birth and depressive state weakened her and she couldn't recover. Nope!!! “Medically, she's completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.” “She's dying?” “We don't know why. She has lost the will to live.” While it’s possible that the robot is exaggerating Padme’s healthiness, and that she’s actually barely holding on (such that her mood determines her survival), that’s a very weak interpretation of what’s said. The robot is rather clear that there is no objective reason for Padme to be dying at all - that the cause is ‘supernatural’. The part about ‘losing the will to live’ is the robot providing a best-guess at the cause, while also just dispensing a cliche. They don’t have any clue what’s happening - but, we can assume, it is related to ‘force powers’. The opposite of shooting electricity and lifting rocks, of projecting one’s will, is this ultimate renunciation of the self. Padme doesn’t just feel sad, but somehow shuts down her body through sheer thought. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 09:27 on Apr 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 09:25
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:There’s a difference between a simple explanation and a simplistic explanation. Claiming that Vader in the OT is motivated by a lie that made him feel guilty is the kind of interpretation that’s reductive and just raises more and more questions. No, I'm saying that "you killed her" is a better line that "she killed herself" because it allows for less deflection. The guilt would always exist. Her death is the key point, having Anakin fully responsible is the full twist of the knife. Palpatine is a master manipulator, why go for second best when the perfect line is right there? SuperMechagodzilla posted:Connected to this is the assertion that Vader acts as he does as a form of self-degradation or self-punishment. That seems to be implying that Anakin never actually died in any respect, and the Vader persona is just a way for Anakin to self-harm. So, Luke in Episode 6 saves Anakin from drug-hatred by repeating “I love you daddy”, and then Anakin kills Palpatine - which is an act that cleanses him of his guilt, right? Anakin died because it was too painful to continue to exist. Discovering Luke (and Leia!) is alive reveals two things. One; that Palpatine lied to him, either directly or through omission. Two, that a part of Padme lives on through their children, and therefore a part of Anakin does too. He still blames himself for Padme's death, but maybe this time he can save his son. SuperMechagodzilla posted:The problem there is there’s no sign of that guilt stuff in the OT films, at all. Rather than exploring the nuances of the character (his religious beliefs, etc.) your interpretation just generates a flagrant retcon in the last few minutes of the series. It was all a misunderstanding! He could not save/he killed his wife, he refuses to kill his son, I don't know why you're resistant to this idea.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 09:48
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nope!!! God, what an absolutely dire film. I guess I just forgot that bit. Sorry!
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 11:55
|
|
|
Gravitas Shortfall posted:No, I'm saying that "you killed her" is a better line that "she killed herself" because it allows for less deflection. The guilt would always exist. Her death is the key point, having Anakin fully responsible is the full twist of the knife. Palpatine is a master manipulator, why go for second best when the perfect line is right there? Ok, so here you’re hedging things: you don’t believe there’s any difference whether Palpatine is lying or not in that scene. It doesn’t change any outcome, really - so you just choose to believe that the character is lying out of an arbitrary sadism. Is telling lies out of arbitrary sadism actually a part of Palpatine’s characterization in any other scene, though? That’s a rhetorical question, because no. It not. Palpatine has disdain for ‘dumber’ people and delights in exposing their weaknesses. He has no need to lie, as you yourself admit, and doesn’t - except, in your claim, there’s this one case at the very end off the series where he breaks character to be a rude meanie. It’s not a thing that he does with anyone else. The thing is that we already know what a lie looks like in Star Wars. When Han Solo says the Falcon can go very fast, he claims it can go a certain distance in 12 parsecs and it can outrun imperial ships. There are multiple cues that this is a lie: -That’s not what a ‘parsec’ is. The stats are bullshit. -Wise man Obiwan rolls his eyes when he hears this bullshit claim. -Han previously failed to outrun an imperial starship, and got boarded. It’s the entire reason why Jabba’s upset. -Luke observes, and rightly complains, that the ship is much slower than advertised. Now they are, again, at risk of being boarded and/or killed. -Harrison Ford’s performance conveys that he’s a smooth-talking conman kind of guy. -We also just know from context that Han is a struggling low-level criminal who often uses trickery just to survive, but isn’t very good at it. (Extratextually, it even notes in the screenplay that Han is lying about the parsecs.) With your interpretation of this one phrase of Palpatine’s, we don’t have all that basis. Palpatine just says something technically incorrect, and he’s the bad guy. There’s no recurring pattern of outright fabrications, like “it seems you are too fat to be loved, Lord Vader”. Palpatine flatters people, befriends them, offers them enough rope to hang themselves: “Kill these Jedi, and you can have a whole planet.” “Grant me emergency powers, and I’ll defeat the confederacy.” You know, stuff like that. Again, simplistic interpretations are not simple, and actually introduce unnecessary complexity to a reading. They lose their explanatory power. So, here’s another problem: quote:Discovering Luke (and Leia!) is alive reveals … that Palpatine lied to him, either directly or through omission. Ok, so you also think Palpatine knew about Luke and Leia the whole time? How? How would he know that? King Organa and Obiwan faked the kids’ deaths. If Palpatine knows they’re alive, because magic, why is Leia allowed to work as a diplomat (and an Alliance spy)? Why was Obiwan able to successfully hide with Luke on Tatooine? If Palpatine has effective omniscience, allowing him to remotely view inside these secret rebel bases, why doesn’t he use it except in this one instance where he’s just being mean to Vader? Did he purposefully keep them alive for some reason? What are the limits of this ability? And why is he so invested in Anakin’s family??? I’m afraid that’s not ‘just as valid’. It’s lacking a crucial falsifiability. Many fans believe Han when he says the Falcon is faster than an imperial starship. They claim that, in Star Wars English, words can mean completely different things (like in that movie Dogtooth) so a parsec is a measure of time now. And, like, no. There’s no way to disprove the claim that “sand” actually refers to delicious sugar, or that “years” are a measure of weight or something. More importantly, there’s no method whereby you could reach those conclusions in the first place. “It’s all a possible lie because language itself is wrong now” is not a simple explanation. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Apr 13, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 17:00
|
|
|
Would've been rad if Padme lost the will to live and then just disappeared into a pile of clothes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 17:15
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:Would've been rad if Padme lost the will to live and then just disappeared into a pile of clothes. That’s a radical Caesarian section, I’d say.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 17:19
|
|
|
feedmyleg posted:Would've been rad if Padme lost the will to live and then just disappeared into a pile of clothes. Well she has the Force, according to Luke, I guess. Could also explain how Leia remembered her.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 17:43
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:The “making it legal” is conditional on Gunray killing the Jedi and securing Amidala’s effective surrender, winning the conflict. I notice you just ignored the bit where he claims to be surprised about the whole becoming Supreme Chancellor thing. And this bit doesn't hold up to scrutiny, either. "I will make it legal" isn't "I will oppose making it legal in the Senate but arrange for it to be made legal anyway" but let's not split hairs. Palpatine wants to bring about a situation where Naboo ends up conquered, Valorum can take the blame and get tossed out, and sympathy for the conquest will help put him in Valorum's place. For his plans to work, he then has to set his successful "Trade Federation" puppets and the other Separatists against the Republic and deploy his clone army against them. Whichever side wins the war, he ends up on top, but he absolutely needs the war. If he makes the invasion legal, deniably, and then blames and removes Valorum, what's his next move? Accept the corrupt legalization of the invasion and move on? Or overturn it and press the issue with the Federation in order to provoke further conflict? "I will make it legal, then make it illegal again and send an army to kill you" looks like a more honest expression of his plans. It is true that Palpatine tries to avoid overt or flat-out lies. But much of what he says is sufficiently deceptive that you need to question pretty much all of it. I would say that where Jedi tend to be cryptic and evasive, Palpatine tends towards the appearance of straightforwardness and lies through omission or being misleading most of the time.
|
|
#
?
Apr 13, 2024 19:13
|
|
|
Narsham posted:Palpatine wants to bring about a situation where Naboo ends up conquered, Valorum can take the blame and get tossed out, and sympathy for the conquest will help put him in Valorum's place. For his plans to work, he then has to set his successful "Trade Federation" puppets and the other Separatists against the Republic and deploy his clone army against them. Whichever side wins the war, he ends up on top, but he absolutely needs the war. I don't think this is exactly right. When Palpatine engineers something like the Naboo crisis, he doesn't have a specific outcome in mind; rather, he throws a couple of bombs and adapts on-the-fly to the changing circumstances. He's not a grand general, he's a poker player. If Naboo successfully defeats the Trade Federation, he's the popular local hero and Valorum is the bought-and-sold patsy who stood with the TF. If the Trade Federation conquers Naboo, well then Valorum is the bumbler who let it happen and Palpatine is the tragic senator without a homeworld. Likewise, I don't think Palpatine's ultimate scheme was to pit the clones and droids against each other. He knew he would need an army at some point, so he bought a clone army, he appointed himself head of a droid army, he probably had some contracts with a consortium of mercenaries, he probably made overtures to the Chiss, etc. And clones vs droids was just the way it shook out. Even in the universe where the Republic overwhelmingly defeats the Confederacy and the events of ROTS don't happen, the Republic is too far gone to not become an empire anyway and that point, and we know that the Jedi are the loyal servants of the Republic, so that's another option for an army there.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 00:51
|
|
|
one of the things the nu-EU kind of fumbles but at least attempts to play in a good direction is the Inquisitors. Palpatine building a small army of expendable idiots with wizard powers as a useful substitute for the Jedi that used to do the same thing is a cool idea. unfortunately it runs face-first into the Exogolian Conspiracy theory, that suggests this is all part of a grand master plan spanning thousands of years, and that's why this dipshit with a stupid hat is insulting an orphan girl for being poor
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 01:19
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:I don't think this is exactly right. When Palpatine engineers something like the Naboo crisis, he doesn't have a specific outcome in mind; rather, he throws a couple of bombs and adapts on-the-fly to the changing circumstances. He's not a grand general, he's a poker player. If Naboo successfully defeats the Trade Federation, he's the popular local hero and Valorum is the bought-and-sold patsy who stood with the TF. If the Trade Federation conquers Naboo, well then Valorum is the bumbler who let it happen and Palpatine is the tragic senator without a homeworld. The moment he was made Supreme Chancellor, it was Game Over and nothing mattered. Either the Separatists topple the Republic and Darth Sidious reigns from the shadows, or the Republic wins and he's still got all his wartime powers to play with (as is what happened). The sole purpose of The Clone Wars was to exhaust any and every existing military threat by pulling them all into the conflict (including the Jedi), paving the way for his Empire to just come through and set up unopposed because they'd all been defeated, or united (and then subjugated), by the winning side.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 01:26
|
|
|
Narsham posted:I notice you just ignored the bit where he claims to be surprised about the whole becoming Supreme Chancellor thing. I didn’t ignore that, but I’m not sure what I was supposed to have responded to. Like, the claim is that Sheev lied about his… feelings?? That’s rather shaky ground on which to build a character analysis spanning multiple films. (What if he is, inwardly, like “lol, it actually worked!”?) And - hold up - Palpatine doesn’t say that he’s surprised. He says that the nomination is a surprise: “a surprise, to be sure - but a welcome one.” But this is all moot anyways because it’s also just basic humility and politeness. Of course Palpatine knew they’d get the nomination. He says as much moments later: “I feel confident our situation will create a strong sympathy vote for us. I will be chancellor.” He says, outright, that they’ve got this election in the bag. Where’s the lie? Narsham posted:If he makes the invasion legal, deniably, and then blames and removes Valorum, what's his next move? Accept the corrupt legalization of the invasion and move on? Or overturn it and press the issue with the Federation in order to provoke further conflict? "I will make it legal, then make it illegal again and send an army to kill you" looks like a more honest expression of his plans. If you take enough steps into alt-universe stuff, you’re outside the scope of the films. But, yeah, Palpatine would at least make a show of opposing the corrupt legalization in order to increase division in the Senate. To best understand the plan, it’s helpful to treat Palpatine and Sidious as distinct characters - because, effectively, they are. (I’ve observed that nothing in the story really changes if they pull back the Sidious hood and it’s some other Sith jerk we’ve never seen before.) This is how Palpatine himself makes sense of it - he never breaks kayfabe. So, if the majority of Senators are okay with the invasion, then Sidious wins. If they oppose it on the basis that it’s obviously illegitimate, then Palpatine wins. If either persona hits a setback, he can just switch attention to the other. Of course this involves theatricality and performance, but the only basic trick is this splitting of himself into two roles (not unlike what Padme does with the handmaiden, as it happens).
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 04:37
|
|
|
This debate is kind of cool. We're witnessing a mythology being created in real time, complete with scholarly disagreements over interpretations of the text. Were the Jedi in fact "force wielders", able to manipulate objects around themselves, or were they simply an elite army that used mind tricks to play off of their reputation to be peacekeepers? In the chronicles of Andor, the only text with a complete copy of the Manifest of Nemick, believed to be the catalyst of the rebellion that ultimately toppled the Empire, there is no mention of any Jedi, and certainly no reference to any beings capable of any mystical powers. It seems strange to think that less than 30 years after the last of the Jedi army disappeared they would not be worthy of mention if they were more than just another military faction with considerable influence in the Senate... And I'm done.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 04:40
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:
But it's not a lie, they made it true. so... you wrong pardner.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 06:42
|
|
|
Stegosnaurlax posted:But it's not a lie, they made it true. so... you wrong pardner. it was a lie when he said it, before they found a tank of liquid schwartz somewhere
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 06:49
|
|
|
TheDeadlyShoe posted:it was a lie when he said it, before they found a tank of liquid schwartz somewhere That's not how retcons work though, it retroactively makes everyone a hero.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 08:11
|
|
|
Rochallor posted:I don't think this is exactly right. When Palpatine engineers something like the Naboo crisis, he doesn't have a specific outcome in mind; rather, he throws a couple of bombs and adapts on-the-fly to the changing circumstances. He's not a grand general, he's a poker player. If Naboo successfully defeats the Trade Federation, he's the popular local hero and Valorum is the bought-and-sold patsy who stood with the TF. If the Trade Federation conquers Naboo, well then Valorum is the bumbler who let it happen and Palpatine is the tragic senator without a homeworld. In fantasy this "chaos is a ladder" approach is pretty popular for "schemers" but there is a reason why this isn't true in real life politics because in reality these "bombs" have the chance to blow up in your face. So it's a rather popular trope to use but in actual practise you see real schemers do the opposite, ie reduce chaos which means to eliminate random chances/events that could work against them because anything could further the plans of your rivals/opponents just as much but there will always be more of them than the single individual you are so just betting on chance is unwise. See it this way, any random event can only affect you in so many ways but here are many more possibilities to affect literally everyone else so it's n+1 vs n+m. It's why despots value "order" and are so fragile in regards to any possible slight or resistence because they only have themselves on "their" side so any factor outside of their control is always a chance of something working against their interest. Palpatine also gambles far too much for a "master schemer" and in the end it always works out for him beause that's what the script dictates, nothing ever (truely) backfires against him and he takes risks that far outweight any benefits. Like despite the Jedi showing ignorance beyond reasonable expectations he still ends up in a situation where his life depends on pursuing a Jedi that he shouldn't be killed in that situation. For all this effort he still just let's some Jedi stroll into his office. Why? Because the script demands a dramatic confrontation at that point, not because it actually makes sense for Palpatine to expose himself in that way. It's why people like to point out all the "plotholes" in Palpatine's plans. It's not because they are "plotholes" in isolation on paper, it's just unreasonable for anyone to actually get away with all of that, the complexity is just too big. This is of course fiction so we are often more inclined to ignore that but there is a reason why real life tyrants and their power grabs are pretty straight forward, complexity is simply not in your favor if you want to take power because any complex system only increases the number of possibilities working against your interests. You want to reduce the number of variables, not increase them. I think a lot of this would be highlighted if we saw the events through Palpatine's eyes, from that perspective it would look like him randomly falling upwards DESPITE everything that is happening around him. PS: Btw this is also an interesting topic on a "meta"-level because many mystery shows/stories/plotlines fail because of that due to the simple fact that the more and more mysteries you add all this complexity will soon start working against you as a writer. That's why you have to condense it back down at same point, take variables (storylines/characters) out of your story or you risk that everything will blow up in your face...
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 23:30
|
|
|
thrawn527 posted:That is stretching the limits of "not lying" more than I'm willing to. Palpatine was well aware that what he was telling Anakin was not true, and why he was doing it. If Palpatine had a security camera filming the Mustafar landing pad (it is his base after all) and then no knowledge of anything that happens outside of the camera view, he would be telling the truth here 100% as far as he could possibly know.
|
|
#
?
Apr 14, 2024 23:49
|
|
|
Man imagine writing all that waffly poo poo when we’re talking about a literal space wizard with pre-cog abilities far in advance of anything seen in the galaxy to that point. He knows exactly what’s going to happen at any stage, he could have killed Sam the Man at any point but throws the fight to get Ani on board. He’s the most powerful Force user in the galaxy, only the actual Chosen One aka living personification of the Force has the potential to beat him, which he’s even cool with until Ani gets rekt. Of course no one in real life could pull that off, there’s no one out there who’s a walking Deep Blue Mk 50, living battery, and master swordsman with the experience and knowledge incarnate of thousands of years of turbo bastards.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2024 00:20
|
|
|
Dingleberry2 posted:This debate is kind of cool. We're witnessing a mythology being created in real time, complete with scholarly disagreements over interpretations of the text. It's unsurprising, since Lucas makes Vader's story - "The Tragedy of Darth Vader" - a variation on the Christ myth where God first incarnates in his petty, tribal, Old Testament form before transitioning into this radically inhuman figure. Any reading of the films is exegesis. It's unavoidable. This doesn't mean it's all up in the air, though. While Star Wars is obviously fictional, it's also patently political, philosophical. The droids are enslaved, for example, and Obiwan makes a bunch of statements justifying that enslavement. 'Droids can't think', etc. This is intimately related to his belief in God/Force, his notions of 'cosmic balance', and so-on. Baby Anakin: "I had a dream I was a Jedi. I came back here and freed all the slaves." So, there are stakes in how we interpret this dream/prophecy. In what form can Anakin come back and free all the slaves, given that he dies before accomplishing that? And, y'know, after the death of Christ you've got the Holy Spirit - which exists in the community of believers. This puts the ultimate conflict in concrete terms: in the aftermath of the Empire, who seeks to free the slaves? LinkesAuge posted:For all this effort he still just let's some Jedi stroll into his office. Why? Because he wants them to attempt to kill him. Mace Windu - de facto leader of the Jedi Order - is pushed to announce his total lack of faith in the republic institutions, and even goes against the Jedi code. At that point, Windu dies physically because he's already totally lost the spiritual battle. He really does just want power. As we see in Episode 6, Windu could only win by throwing away his sword and choosing an ethical demise. And, because Windu is so unlikely to do that, Palpatine is never in any real danger. That's how he operates. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 04:27 on Apr 15, 2024 |
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2024 04:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 3, 2024 02:25 |
|
|
Guys, I'm starting to think that maybe...Star Wars is inherently...unsatisfying.
|
|
#
?
Apr 15, 2024 05:16
|
|