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Domestic animals are mostly unviable in nature because we've bred them to be too fat or stupid to survive. They have no value as anything but sources of food, products or "hobby animals", and I say this specifically because I have an avid interest in nature and the environment, and domestic animals are an enormous issue in people's efforts to protect it
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May 28, 2019 13:43
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CountFosco posted:You point to cultures with strict vegetarianism, and then make the claim that because of this, vegans can live "perfectly" well. Vegetarianism and veganism are two very different things. I have a lot of respect for vegetarianism. The idea of a world dominated by pure veganism concerns me, as many species would cease to be valuable to humans as anything other than hobby animals. I have raised chickens for eggs, and done so in what I consider an ethical and forthright manner. A universal veganism seems to me throwing the baby out with the bathwater. My point that vegans can live “perfectly well” was only thematically related to the one about historical vegetarianism, it wasn’t supposed to logically follow. By “perfectly well” I mean you can eat vegan and not develop goiters or cease ovulating, or otherwise have their body obviously fail due to nutritional deficits. This is supported by modern nutritionist consensus and the experience of vegans posting itt. The point was to distinguish if we are talking about a sufficient vs optimal diet, and to point out meat free diets obviously pass the sufficient bar. Squalid fucked around with this message at 16:05 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 14:59
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I thought goiters were from too much meat?
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May 29, 2019 00:04
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CountFosco posted:I thought goiters were from too much meat? its caused by iodine deficiency but it was just an example of what happens when you don't get a "essential" nutrition.
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May 29, 2019 00:47
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roomforthetuna posted:Because we're the only animal with teeth that doesn't just grow new teeth and also lives longer than about 20 years. oh dear anyway I got probated posting in this thread, thanks for the discussions. I'm off.
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May 29, 2019 10:32
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I don’t allow my cats access to scratching posts, because weak-willed humans are the only creature that likes to regularly maintain its nails. My couch is in tatters, why do you ask?
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May 29, 2019 15:00
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my stepdads beer posted:oh dear Hey next time don’t come back for the parting shot, it’s not a good look I admit I was hoping you’d get up the effort to define what the gently caress a natural diet is, but you were almost certainly just going to repeat some weird hokum picked up from Huffington Post or somewhere equally dreadful so maybe its best that you don’t. Squalid fucked around with this message at 16:04 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 16:02
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my stepdads beer posted:oh dear
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May 29, 2019 23:56
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Squalid posted:Hey next time don’t come back for the parting shot, it’s not a good look Probably what "the golden one" or the other youtube dude "sv3rige" eats. raw, rotten meat. The far right diet
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Jun 4, 2019 14:04
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Did OP successfully go vegan or did this thread just die under the weight of pedantic arguing?
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Jun 5, 2019 04:21
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GWBBQ posted:Did OP successfully go vegan or did this thread just die under the weight of pedantic arguing?
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Jun 5, 2019 04:29
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Why are so many people saying veganism is such a new concept and thus unstudied in detail? Jainism has existed for like 1500 years and is functionally basically identical in terms of diet, save dairy.
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Jun 8, 2019 14:26
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Jeza posted:Why are so many people saying veganism is such a new concept and thus unstudied in detail? Jainism has existed for like 1500 years and is functionally basically identical in terms of diet, save dairy. It's because they have their masculinity tied up in how much meat they eat, and take personal offense at the idea that people might live differently than they do.
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Jun 8, 2019 18:43
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M Condriano posted:It's because they have their masculinity tied up in how much meat they eat, and take personal offense at the idea that people might live differently than they do. I beg your pardon, I have my masculinity tied up in how long my beard is buddy.
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Jun 8, 2019 21:32
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One of my favourite things that happens when people argue against veganism, for all the bullshit about B12 and protein, people seem to genuinely believe that you need to consume animals to absorb their strength.
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Jun 9, 2019 13:18
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Jeza posted:Why are so many people saying veganism is such a new concept and thus unstudied in detail? Jainism has existed for like 1500 years and is functionally basically identical in terms of diet, save dairy. By conventional definition, if a diet includes dairy it is not vegan. Obviously if you start including dairy, eggs, or fish the scope of evidence dramatically changes. Using a strict definition of veganism was also a way for me to be generous towards my stepdads beer, because his arguments definitely don't make any sense applied to vegetarians, and only probably make no sense applied to vegans. One issue with this subject is that there are far fewer vegans than vegetarians, which make studying them more difficult for researchers. If we want to make inferences about the long term effects of vegetarianism we can look at historical records of groups like the Jains to make inferences about the long term effects, its much harder to do that with vegans, since there are no comparable groups. Or at least there weren't until the 20th century. Of course nutritional science is clear that there's no theoretical reason anyone can't meet all of their nutritional needs on a vegan diet. That is well established and pretty much inarguable, or at least that is my take away from the writings and recommendations of organizations responsible public health and nutritional science. However a much harder question to answer is: as a population, are vegans just as healthy or healthier than meat eaters? This question is much more difficult to answer than whether it is theoretically possible to eat a healthy vegan diet. You can't do controlled experiments, you have to use observations from nature, and that increases uncertainty. If differences are small, they will be hard to detect. Culture and custom will have a big effect, which can make it impossible to extrapolate results from a study in one country to another. All that said, to my knowledge there is no reason to believe vegans as a group are less healthy than people with other diets. I haven't really looked into it much though, so I'm not going to make any strong claims. Basically I am just repeated some statements I read in a report for nutritionists saying the population of vegans is poorly studied.
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Jun 9, 2019 18:56
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Squalid posted:All that said, to my knowledge there is no reason to believe vegans as a group are less healthy than people with other diets. I haven't really looked into it much though, so I'm not going to make any strong claims. Basically I am just repeated some statements I read in a report for nutritionists saying the population of vegans is poorly studied. You would think if anything vegans would be more healthy because in broad strokes vegans vs the regular population, the vegans would be more educated and have a lower calorie diet than typical eaters. vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Jun 9, 2019 |
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Jun 9, 2019 19:38
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Ok. So real talk. I switched over to the vegan side back in 2005. Never felt the need to sort out omni subs (omnivore substitutes; I.e., stuff omnivores rely on that is made vegan), because I was raised vegetarian from south India, where we don’t consume that much dairy or eggs to begin with. That said, we do consume them. The mistake I made was that I didn’t realise how much caloric intake came from the animal products in my diet. Apparently it was a lot. I went from vegetarian (i.e. if I don’t have cheese in every food, I will literally die) to full on vegan. I didn’t want to bother substituting initially, because I knew I’d just crave the animal version more. I felt like absolute rear end. I’m fairly on the thin side to begin with, and I dropped like 20 pounds or so in a month. I’d get all shakey and whatnot. It was awful. Finally, I asked a vegan friend for help. She asked me to log what I was eating. I did for about a week, and she was horrified that I was eating so few calories. Once I got that sorted, things took a major up turn. PS. Shut the gently caress up about debating veganism. That’s not what the OP was asking. Cripes. @OP if you ever need cooking advice, hit me up. I worked at a vegan restaurant for 7 years doing everything from waiting tables to revamping the menu. Before that, I wrote a book about cooking vegan without omni subs. Chances are, you’ll be fine. dino. fucked around with this message at 12:19 on Aug 18, 2019 |
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Aug 18, 2019 12:11
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zapplez posted:You would think if anything vegans would be more healthy because in broad strokes vegans vs the regular population, the vegans would be more educated and have a lower calorie diet than typical eaters. You would think after getting consistently told why you're wrong over the course of 8 pages of a thread you'd maybe pack it in and maybe just lurk.
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Sep 14, 2019 10:53
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https://twitter.com/mackenmurphy/status/1175971894039728129?s=21
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Sep 23, 2019 06:45
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Ultramega posted:You would think after getting consistently told why you're wrong over the course of 8 pages of a thread you'd maybe pack it in and maybe just lurk. Shouldn't you be banned already for doxxing people because they hurt your online feelings?
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Sep 23, 2019 18:43
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Since we've been bumped, wanted to jump in and mention vitamins briefly: I get bloodwork done every couple of months because of medication that I take, and I've never once been low on anything provided by my diet. The only supplement I've ever needed to take was Vitamin D, and that's just because Arizona summers are a loving nightmare and I spend as little time in the sun as possible. Nori rules and is good in tons of food, which'll solve the B12 issue via diet if supplements aren't your thing (they aren't mine, if I can help it). Otherwise, most nut milks come in fortified varieties now that'll solve any problems that might come up.
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Sep 29, 2019 23:19
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I don't think relying on nori for B12 is a good idea, since however much of the vitamin it might have, it's not been proven to be bioavailable to humans. And with plant milks, well, if they're fortified, it's the same thing as eating supplements, and it's simpler to remember to pop a pill every now and then than plan your diet around a silly amount of oat milk
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Sep 30, 2019 09:58
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Ras Het posted:I don't think relying on nori for B12 is a good idea, since however much of the vitamin it might have, it's not been proven to be bioavailable to humans. And with plant milks, well, if they're fortified, it's the same thing as eating supplements, and it's simpler to remember to pop a pill every now and then than plan your diet around a silly amount of oat milk Yeah, that's reasonable. I suppose what I mean to say is that the important thing is to pay attention to your diet and work solutions into it as necessary. If a supplement works, that works. I don't take them, and somewhere between the Japanese food and almond milk I drink, I'm definitely getting the B12 I need.
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Sep 30, 2019 15:51
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Yeah sure, it's just that when it comes down to the one vitamin that we know is a question mark in all vegan diets it's better to be like, if you're not 100% certain, take supplements, they're cheap and easy
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Sep 30, 2019 16:03
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Gods i am so irritated at the vitamin houses. Either their reviews are all fake (vast majority), or they try to be slick. One of them boasted 2000 mg of omega 3. Flip to the back. 2000 mg when you consume 4 giant horse pills. Sure, Jan. It’s like. Give me the dosage in 1 pill. Have some kind of certification with third party audits that I can request to verify that you’re giving me what you say you are. This isn’t loving that difficult, people. Also: on vitamins. Don’t take random vitamins for no reason. Get blood work done, and figure out what you need. Your doctor will tell you. I have rear end high cholesterol, and off the charts triglycerides. Doctor told me to get a good b12, an omega-3, and a large dose of vitamin d, because gently caress being sweaty in the sun. Aside from getting some very expensive pee, you’re also putting extra strain on your kidneys and liver. It’s this tendency to be all, “well if a little is good, lemme take a ton of it.” Then you have idiots getting heart burn, because they’re chugging turmeric and garlic pills like it’s water. If they’re completely harmless because it’s “natural” (which is a really dumb thinking), then it’s not actually doing anything beneficial. If it does do something, you need to treat it like medicine. Talk to a doctor about what you need, and how much. Follow up, and see if you can ease back once your body readjusts itself.
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Oct 2, 2019 02:41
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This may have been addressed in the thread already, but what's the general consensus on imitation meat? I'm referring to beyond meat, impossible burgers, various soya based imitation meat, field roast. Is this to help people psychologically adjust to NOT eating meat or is it marketing or what? I've tried a few of the aforementioned products and field roast especially is pretty tasty but definitely does not taste like meat even though they call it "meatloaf" etc.
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Oct 2, 2019 14:19
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Beyond and impossible burgers are genuinely pretty meat like imo. For me, the benefit of those types of foods is that it makes cooking easier. I'm trying to work my way up to being vegan, and sometimes it's just a lot easier to throw together a recipe I already know, substituting a fake meat in. Nothing else about the recipe really needs to change for the dish to still work.
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Oct 2, 2019 14:36
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It’s a different thing to eat that’s vegan. Not my bag because I was raised not eating meat, but if it gets you through a trip to the boonies, and your choice is a beyond burger at the BK, or a sandwich of white bread and lettuce at subway, get what you need.
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Oct 2, 2019 17:07
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Soy/oat/seitan products are going through a huge developmental leap right now. Don't treat them like a replacement, treat them like a different protein component. Like Oumph!, a soy based protein that actually has som decent texture and crisps up nicely when fried. It's available in Scandinavia and the UK so far. Also it's great that you can get a regular gross fast food burger without meat pretty much anywhere now. Those old sad deep fried mashed vegetable patties are on their way out.
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Oct 2, 2019 18:48
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dino. posted:It’s a different thing to eat that’s vegan. Not my bag because I was raised not eating meat, but if it gets you through a trip to the boonies, and your choice is a beyond burger at the BK, or a sandwich of white bread and lettuce at subway, get what you need. Makes sense to me. Not trying to troll, but do you think vegans would eat lab grown meat if it could be grown cruelty free?
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Oct 2, 2019 20:05
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axolotl farmer posted:Soy/oat/seitan products are going through a huge developmental leap right now. Don't treat them like a replacement, treat them like a different protein component. Like Oumph!, a soy based protein that actually has som decent texture and crisps up nicely when fried. It's available in Scandinavia and the UK so far. This exactly. Once someone comes up with a catchy name ("seitan" is not it) and some celebrity popularises that name it won't be too long until meat-free meat is just another type of 'meat' on a par with pork, chicken, beef etc. The current crop (hehe) of companies developing these products are more or less making the same thing, just with different marketing, packaging etc. Plus, once big companies realise the profit in meatless meat - and they're very very very quickly realising it now - it'll explode. Moving Mountains' website says they're supplying 1762 restaurants in the UK. There are apparently 25,000 "restaurants" (definition unclear) in England, so call it 30,000 in the UK, meaning that company alone is into 5.8% of them. Tesco sells Oumph! for £3.50 for a 280g pack. Their ingredients are: Water Soya Protein (23%) Salt That means that 65g of it is soya. The going rate on alibaba for a kilo of soya is between $1-2 (£0.81-£1.62). Which means you're looking at between 5 and 10 pence for the most expensive ingredient. Let's imagine the salt is harvested from the tears of virgin nuns and call it 50p to make that 280g packet, giving a profit of £3. Gross profit is 600%. Snobbish chefs and restaurant owners will get over their prejudice once they see numbers like that. Within a generation or two it'll just be another ingredient.
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Oct 2, 2019 20:27
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Ebeneezer Splooge posted:Makes sense to me. Are they going to remove the cholesterol? Increase the fibre? Decrease the saturated fat? Reduce the level of fat to prevent acid reflux? The effect on your body when you 'go vegan' is tremendous, and that's precisely because you're decreasing your consumption of the bad things you find in meat and increasing the good things.* By the time they've perfected lab-grown meat then plant-based meat will be so far ahead that it won't even be a competition. Lab-grown meat can (and no doubt will) play a part for people allergic or sensitive to gluten, soya, mycoprotein, legumes etc, and if it can decrease our reliance on mass agriculture then that should overall be A Good Thing. However, I don't think there are many existing vegans eagerly waiting for the lab industry to hurry up and let us go back to having bubbly stomachs and constipation. * obviously you can have a hilariously bad vegan diet if you choose to. The vegan imitations of non-vegan desserts tend to have the nutritional qualities of a bucket of lard.
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Oct 2, 2019 21:08
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Ebeneezer Splooge posted:Not trying to troll, but do you think vegans would eat lab grown meat if it could be grown cruelty free? How could anyone possibly answer this? Some will and some won't. Some people are vegan for ethical reasons, some for health reasons, some for religious reasons, and some for any combination of those or other reasons. If somebody is only concerned with reducing cruelty and the environmental costs, they might eat the lab grown meat. If someone is just watching their cholesterol, they might not.
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Oct 2, 2019 22:33
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Human Tornada posted:How could anyone possibly answer this? Some will and some won't.
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Oct 3, 2019 05:42
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bowmore posted:well you just answered it...
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Oct 3, 2019 06:17
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All good points.
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Oct 3, 2019 12:10
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roomforthetuna posted:Yeah, "how could anyone possibly answer this?" wasn't the right objection, it should have been "how could anyone not know that the incredibly obvious answer to this question is 'some of them'?" Maybe I was asking the wrong question in this case then, trying to cover too broad a population. Would vegans in the vegan thread on this internet forum eat lab meat? And why or why not? duckmaster posted:
I think you are right. I personally think plant based diets are going to be necessary for most people to adopt at some poi t in the future, and it's more of a question of when most of the population will have to do so and not if. Eventually scarcity of water and other resources will mandate plant based nutrition, especially if humans continue to exist at current or larger than current levels of population. Meat will become a delicacy for the rich. I appreciate the advances made in meat substitutes, these advances might get closed minded individuals to open up a little bit about not needing to have meat at every single meal as the protein component. Ebeneezer Splooge fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Oct 3, 2019 |
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Oct 3, 2019 14:05
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Ebeneezer Splooge posted:Maybe I was asking the wrong question in this case then, trying to cover too broad a population. Yeah, I'm vegan and I wouldn't have any qualms eating meat that was grown and harvested in a cruelty-free way. I'm vegan for the ethics moreso than the climate, though - I'd rather eat some soy that was imported from across the world than meat that was taken locally from a thinking, feeling being.
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Oct 3, 2019 17:58
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Honestly, I wouldn’t care if anyone else eats the lab grown stuff, but it’s not for me. I was raised vegetarian, and don’t like the smell of meat. Like in, as a kid, we were conditioned to think meat is gross, and the people who ate it were not as pure as the vegetarians. I mean that in a literal sense. Meat was seen on the same level as alcohol, drugs, smoking, and only eaten by the less civilised castes. Hell, there are even people from the merchant caste who are vegetarian even though they don’t have to be, because it’s seen as morally superior. Religion is a hell of a drug. Anyway. Because I always found the smell to be unappetising, I can’t even bring myself to eat that beyond meat stuff. It smells too much like the animal stuff. If you’re giving me a veggie burger, I want it to have beans, nuts, seeds, veggies, and have absolutely not even a vague nod to the animal one. I’ll eat a veggie burger because it’s fully its own thing, and not because it’s similar to the animal meat version. Same goes for things like TVP, soy milk, tofu scramble, etc. I don’t want it to look or smell like something from the animal kingdom because that stuff turns my stomach. I want it to be its own thing. i don’t want my earth balance margarine to taste or smell like butter. I find the smell of butter to be unpleasant. For that reason, lab grown identical products are gonna be a no from me, dawg. But if someone else wants in on that action, knock yourself out. As long as nobody had to die for it, we’re good. Hell, I hope that they even get creative and make lab grown meat that tastes better than the stuff made from the animal. If you could make a chicken breast or what have you that has the flavour of thigh meat, but none of the toughness, I’m sure there’d be a market for it. Self smoking ham. Beef that’s as lean as pork, but also tender. And nobody had to suffer!
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Oct 3, 2019 19:13
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