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Italy almost got your own nukes in the '60s in cooperation with the US Navy (a couple cruisers were built to carry the Polaris ballistic missile and there were plans for a domestically-produced variant called Alfa in the early '70s), but it's just as well you didn't because I'd hate to think of Berlusconi having nukes.
Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 17:06
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SlowBloke posted:I'm not expecting a bomber wing of Mirages 2000N flying over my head anytime soon You definitely shouldn't: that aircraft type has been retired from service.
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Jan 22, 2019 17:07
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Cat Mattress posted:You definitely shouldn't: that aircraft type has been retired from service. Which is sadly another example of me being old, i think i have still some old books/magazines with those as the new cool stuff. I take the N role is now fulfilled by Rafales? Vincent Van Goatse posted:Italy almost got your own nukes in the '60s in cooperation with the US Navy (a couple cruisers were built to carry the Polaris ballistic missile and there were plans for a domestically-produced variant called Alfa in the early '70s), but it's just as well you didn't because I'd hate to think of Berlusconi having nukes. If memory serves me right, our investment in the ALFA project was reused by Alenia with the VEGA launcher so it wasn't all wasted cash. The native nuke program was halted once the U.S. created the nuclear sharing program so we don't have to pay the stupid amount of money for nuke warheads lifecycle expenses. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 17:48 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 17:46
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VEGA didn't start development until the late 90s, twenty years after the ALFA project was killed off by the Non-Proliferation Treaty. From the minimal research I've done I don't think there was much technology transfer between the two except on the most basic "we know how to build a big solid fuel rocket" level.
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Jan 22, 2019 18:02
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Any of the Lega politicians fancy themselves as a D'Annunzio and marching on Rijeka? There's bound to be some irredentism amongst them.
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Jan 22, 2019 19:22
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SlowBloke posted:I'm not expecting a bomber wing of Mirages 2000N flying over my head anytime soon, it's just that I feel saber rattling with a nuclear power idiotic, double so if you are in several strategic/economic/military alliances with them Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 07:00 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 06:44
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biglads posted:Any of the Lega politicians fancy themselves as a D'Annunzio and marching on Rijeka? There's bound to be some irredentism amongst them. You are touching a VERY sensitive subject with cheap sarcasm. I do hope you are joking about without knowing what happened after WW2 with the tito boys and the istria italian minority.
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Jan 23, 2019 08:48
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Toplowtech posted:The real thing is those kind of complains are normal coming from an African country or Haiti. Italy (or LOL America), not so much. Complaining that France is a pillaging imperialist country is such a super fresh take coming from Italy, considering from whom we learned the trade. Some guy called Julius, i think: he came, he saw, he killed around 10% of the population, enslaved the rest, destroyed the religion and culture and took all the gold out of the mines. Do you guys know whatever happened to him? So yes, you are right it's idiotic and a pure political distraction to make you look elsewhere. You could have at least brought up Italy's own invasion of Lybia and Ethiopia in a bid for colonial power status, but you actually had to dredge up Julius loving Caesar and the Roman Empire to show that Italy are being hypocrites by calling out France for its continued colonial imperialism in Africa lol. I mean, di Maio is wrong, in that the CFA is not the cause of the migrant crisis, whereas France helping gently caress up Lybia for no good reason actually is (partially). But you know, an imperialism callout is an imperialism callout, and we should take it when we can.
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Jan 23, 2019 10:09
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mortons stork posted:whereas France helping gently caress up Lybia for no good reason actually is (partially). But you know, an imperialism callout is an imperialism callout, and we should take it when we can.
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Jan 23, 2019 10:47
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I'm not sure how reminding Italians of our atrocities, which we are trying extremely hard as a whole to whitewash from textbooks and our collective history could be construed as using corpses like political props. It would be doing a service to their memory, given that I don't think anyone ever even apologised for it.
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Jan 23, 2019 11:12
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SlowBloke posted:You are touching a VERY sensitive subject with cheap sarcasm. I do hope you are joking about without knowing what happened after WW2 with the tito boys and the istria italian minority. The foibe, right?
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Jan 23, 2019 12:09
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Toplowtech posted:The real thing is those kind of complains are normal coming from an African country or Haiti. Italy (or LOL America), not so much. Complaining that France is a pillaging imperialist country is such a super fresh take coming from Italy, considering from whom we learned the trade. Some guy called Julius, i think: he came, he saw, he killed around 10% of the population, enslaved the rest, destroyed the religion and culture and took all the gold out of the mines. Do you guys know whatever happened to him? So yes, you are right it's idiotic and a pure political distraction to make you look elsewhere.
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Jan 23, 2019 12:43
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Sulla Faex posted:The foibe, right? That and having a good chunk of people pretty much evicted from their homes leaving everything in their possesion behind, generally known as Istrian exodus(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus). It's a very touchy subject that only now is starting to get forgotten due to the people involved dying from age. While i'd guess it was an attempt from biglads to get a zinger I am not okay joking about it in any way, shape or form.
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Jan 23, 2019 15:26
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It wasn't meant to be a "zinger", it was a genuine question. I've visited Istria and the wider area a few times and know about the Italian population (mostly) leaving Yugoslavia for the Trieste region up to the 1950's and the chasm between the esuli(?) and rimasti(?). As far as I know (and there aren't a great number of English Language sources) the foibe massacres were undertaken by whoever had the upper hand in the WW2 fighting, so as well as the Italian population suffering from it particularly towards the end of the war, similar massacres were made earlier of those Slovenes/Croats regarded as anti-fascist. I was in Slovenia a couple of weeks ago and one of the labels on a (weirdly named Combat Wombat) local beer talked about returning Trieste and Klagenfurt to the "motherland".
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Jan 23, 2019 17:03
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biglads posted:It wasn't meant to be a "zinger", it was a genuine question. I've visited Istria and the wider area a few times and know about the Italian population (mostly) leaving Yugoslavia for the Trieste region up to the 1950's and the chasm between the esuli(?) and rimasti(?). Your beer is a reference to the austrian-hungarian empire rather than italian irredentism. The period when Trieste and Istria were under austrohungarian control was the peak of influence/economical power of the region, rather than being nobodies as they are now. If you ask someone here about the glory days you are more likely to get throwbacks to the late 1800 with the Asburgo rather than with Italy. The foibe events was the classic ethnic cleansing that you get once you end a military conflict in occupied territory, whoever is not the winner or its closest allies is an enemy and must be dealt with. The fact that most people were collaborating with the fascists under the threat of violence or inprisoment was irrelevant so off you go(literally, into a chasm. Most remains haven't been identified even today, only estimations from the people missing in the years of the executions). It was a messy affair(unlike the fascist regimes that held trials and kept a list/ledger of imprisoned and killed people, the partizans killed with minimal red tape so it was pretty impossible to get a list of the names of the killed people). SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 17:21
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Thank you for answering. I genuinely apologise if I caused offence with the way I asked the question originally, it was not my intention. I'm still interested of whether there is an irredentist movement within what is now mainstream Italian politics or if it is more of a regional thing around Trieste. Separately, would a Slovene beer talking about the 'return' of Trieste and Klagenfurt really be referring to A-H? I honestly took it to refer to the furthest points reached by Yugoslav Partisans before they were told to shift back by the western allies? If it was for A-H then surely Klagenfurt was a part of it anyway? I would take issue with the claim that the fascists always kept a nice tally of who they killed. Ustase Croatia didn't seem to be that sort of place and they were calling the shots for a lot of that region during the WW2 period.
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Jan 23, 2019 17:40
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biglads posted:Thank you for answering. I genuinely apologise if I caused offence with the way I asked the question originally, it was not my intention. I'm still interested of whether there is an irredentist movement within what is now mainstream Italian politics or if it is more of a regional thing around Trieste. Austria wasn't a Yugoslav enemy after WW2 so i'd guess the reference to Klagenfurt is more likely to be A-H than Tito's crew. There is a reverse irredentism movement in Trieste called TLT (Territorio Libero di Trieste) which wants the town to become a semicolony of the allied forces(USA/UK) like it was shorty after the Paris accords rather than a district of Italy but AFAIK nobody in the balkans wants to go back/become Italy territory(they are more than happy to splinter into city sized countries as they do now instead of joining another country). There are irredentists fringes in the Trentino Alto Adige(which i'll keep believing we should've given it away to keep istria) but i have zero idea about their success/ideology. The Lega is not irredentism(make a occupied zone with a unified identity back to their homeland) but a racist way to acquire more money(remove or minimize south improvement funding) and government positions(move or duplicate offices to the north/Veneto), there is no way in hell a independant Veneto would last more than a month and they know it. Now that they moved from CHUDs (veneto idiots that believe that the foreigners/southeners are the source of their issues) to general racists they acquired enough votes to be relevant instead of a percentage booster like they did in the Berlusconi days. SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jan 23, 2019 |
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Jan 23, 2019 18:00
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SlowBloke posted:Austria wasn't a Yugoslav enemy after WW2 so i'd guess the reference to Klagenfurt is more likely to be A-H than Tito's crew. There is a reverse irredentism movement in Trieste called TLT (Territorio Libero di Trieste) which wants the town to become a semicolony of the allied forces(USA/UK) like it was shorty after the Paris accords rather than a district of Italy but AFAIK nobody in the balkans wants to go back/become Italy territory(they are more than happy to splinter into city sized countries as they do now instead of joining another country). The Lega is not irredentism(make a occupied zone with a unified identity back to their homeland) but a racist way to acquire more money(remove or minimize south improvement funding) and government positions(move or duplicate offices to the north/Veneto), there is no way in hell a independant Veneto would last more than a month and they know it. Now that they moved from CHUDs (veneto idiots that believe that the foreigners/southeners are the source of their issues) to general racism they acquired enough votes to be relevant instead of a percentage booster like they did in the Berlusconi days. Thanks for the detailed explanation. For anyone interested in the history of the area who is restricted to English Language publications I recommend History in Exile : Memory and Identity at the borders of the Balkans by Pamela Ballinger.
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Jan 23, 2019 18:09
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Another great display of statesmanship. TL;DR: Salvini gonna Salvini, "I need to show I want to prove Europe doesn't want to have an immigration policy but I have to do it while keeping my voters' belief they're right in being xenophobes - aha, here's the ship I need to block, this one has media coverage, who cares about the others". It's even more lovely than the usual because it exposes how there's no clear role or accountability in state authorities. Rules say one thing, the minister says something else, the local coastal guard says something else, and political opposition say something else. Who is right? No way to prove it. edit: more context: Salvini is a social media star and promoted, among the other hashtags, "#portichiusi" ("we won't allow migrants to dock in our ports"). Cue the government releasing a document stating ports are still open and migrants are still reaching us. Char fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 16:04
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https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1090913145361702912 Italy now officially in recession. Although one analyst says it's technically never not been since 08: https://twitter.com/APetimezas/status/1090915993063444480 I can only assume Salvini is desperately scrabbling through Benito's autobiography for tips
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Jan 31, 2019 12:24
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Tesseraction posted:Italy now officially in recession. Although one analyst says it's technically never not been since 08: This is the correct take. I'm going from memory from analysis I read a while ago, but it goes like this: Italy was stagnating throughout the '90s, after a decade of government spending financed by strong export growth + a weak currency and high public deficits that were not necessarily well invested, faced a series of exchange rate and budget crises in the '90s, stabilized after introduction of the euro but grew sluggishly in the lead up to the great recession. Then we got a debt crisis due to speculative attacks based on our high debt to gdp ratio, which worsened the state of our already terrible public finances + we had lost the ability to balance with expansionary monetary policies and instead our bond yields went through the roof. Also ECB policies somewhat helped contain the damages and prevent the crisis from going terminal, but there wasn't much they could do for us with inflation targeting alone, so welp. And finally countercyclical gov't spending was constrained due to aforementioned issues with debt, with the Greek crisis fresh in everyone's memories and worries of lending to an unsustainable debt and about the default of the 4th largest economy in the bloc, so we got austerity forever, which actually increased our debt burden during the height of the crisis, which may warrant the consideration that it actually is unsustainable now. This recession isn't gonna make things better either.
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Jan 31, 2019 12:41
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Char posted:After turning into a single country, no Italian government except for the fascist regime tried to give the whole population a foundation of values, ideals, minimum guaranteed services, and so on. Before globalization, the stratified vision of groups was easy to decipher: To frame this to how it relates to American systems... This makes Italy sound very much comparable to middle America. Rural, isolated, conservative. It also has something in common with pre-Civil War America, in which your state of origin was a much more critical issue to your identity than it is now (in most places).
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Feb 1, 2019 11:04
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Government is totally going to dissolve after the european elections. Industrial production took a huge hit in the last months, which is a huge disappointment for a large part of Lega voters; Lega and M5S cannot agree on what to do regarding the Torino-Lyon railway and their positions are pretty much opposite; once again another display of statesmanship in mantaining our relationships with our neighbouring countries - personal opinion, way to go guys, let's go all scorched earth with the countries with centuries of shared history and values. Government will dissolve because it's getting exponentially harder to hide all the huge structural issues we're dealing with. There's also the matter of the last BTP sale - this will be a VERY rough year. Off topic. SlowBloke, non è che per puro caso eri a Pisa ieri, vero? Char fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 11:56
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WaPo this morning said that you can sense an almost desperation in the way di Maio and Salvini are throwing poo poo at Macron in order to prevent them from shittalking each other's parties ahead of the Euro elections.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:02
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If you're not caught in the sunken cost fallacy of having to justify your vote for either of these parties, it is pretty evident they're scrambling to keep their consensus. They're salting the earth in order to keep four million votes. The most likely situation, IMHO, is a Monti-II situation.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:05
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I'm personally looking forward to French and Italian football hooligans doing a full-on border skirmish in place of the armies.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:11
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To he surprise of no one, Air France is not going to partecipate in the Alitalia refinancing anymore. I can't wait to nationalize that piece of poo poo AGAIN.
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Feb 8, 2019 14:25
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This government has already lasted more than I expected, to be honest.
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Feb 8, 2019 14:47
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Char posted:SlowBloke, non è che per puro caso eri a Pisa ieri, vero? Mai stato a Pisa in vita, che ti ha dato a pensare che fossi io? Era messo così male quel povero cristo? Fair Bear Maiden posted:This government has already lasted more than I expected, to be honest. As a matter of fact the sole metric this government has positively excedeed is not tapping out (and let people cash in on their dead pool bets). I am positively surprised they lasted this long(I think they are going to aim for the half legislature mark to be able to ask their golden pensions) SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 18:35
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Tafferling posted:To he surprise of no one, Air France is not going to partecipate in the Alitalia refinancing anymore. I can't wait to nationalize that piece of poo poo AGAIN. Is this about the current feud
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Feb 8, 2019 21:00
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Italy and Framce, two bad governments
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Feb 8, 2019 21:00
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Kurtofan posted:Italy and France, two bad governments
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Feb 8, 2019 21:07
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bhutan's king seems nice
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Feb 8, 2019 21:34
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One thing I love about the Italian government today is how through their obtuse, contorted logical processes that lead them tot he most monstrous poo poo imaginable they also inexplicably run into good takes completely by accident (calling macron a piece of poo poo, holding off on helping the US do its foreign policy in venezuela etc). This poo poo literally never happened when the guys in power were your bog-standard political professionals in the neoliberal era, to the point that I actually think they tried to correct themselves before doing a good by accident.
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Feb 8, 2019 21:39
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Kurtofan posted:Is this about the current feud Are you implying that they would be refinancing Alitalia if it weren't for the current political slapfight? I find this hard to believe on account of Air France being perpetually on strike and also crashing their aircraft into the sea on the one day every ten years that they aren't.
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Feb 8, 2019 21:50
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I hate to bang the same drum ad nauseam but I've found a nice report about this year's foibe rememberance day http://www.triesteprima.it/cronaca/giorno-del-ricordo-dipiazza-10-febbraio-2019.html It's in Italian, run it on your web translator dujour cause i haven't found any hits in english(it got minimal exposure on most national newspapers too) and honestly it is short enough to warrant a complete read instead of snippets. It's not the usual populist rethoric from LN(Salvini talked a bit afterwards but it managed to keep a modicum of  given the occasion) or M5S about random foreigners so at least it's a change from the sad standards of today
SlowBloke fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Feb 10, 2019 |
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Feb 10, 2019 19:18
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Work is keeping me away from activity.SlowBloke posted:Mai stato a Pisa in vita, che ti ha dato a pensare che fossi io? Era messo così male quel povero cristo? Latest news! First of all, industrial production took a hit. As expected, the economic situation is not going to improve anytime soon. More or less, revenues went down 7.3% compared to Q4 2017. The government isn't spending a single word on this issue. But there's a major  event.The article on ANSA doesn't cover the juicy bits. Back in August, our government basically forced a coast guard ship to stand by (with all its passengers, which were mostly migrants) for a number of days, without the proper legal coverage for such an action. It was a publicity stunt, obviously: the problem is, it was a stunt made without making sure the laws were on the right side of the matter. So, Salvini, being the one who created the case and rode the media during the stunt, got a request for prosecution for alleged kidnapping. There were other charges as well, but law already said theese charges held no ground (as in: "ok, the prosecution request has been reviewed, it holds ground"). Fast forward to a month ago, the prosecution followed its iter, and Salvini says: "feel free to prosecute me, I'm in the right". A couple of days later: "don't prosecute me". Then, a couple of days later: "if you prosecute me, remember this is something that has been agreed upon the whole government, you'd have to prosecute them as well". Then, another couple of days later, the M5S side of the government: "we did this together, you'd have to prosecute us as well". The answer? "No big deal, we'll prosecute whoever is involved, assuming the Senate will allow us". Guess what happens? The answer is "ok, the Senate won't allow that" with a twist. Part of M5S rhetoric stands (or uset to stand) firmly on the excess of privileges the political caste has. Like, for instance, immunity for members of the parliament/government. So... what do we do now? Do we go against our rhetoric, creating a potential political crisis, or do we try sweeping this stuff under the rug? LET'S ASK OUR VOTER BASE! M5S has an online voting platform. It's a completely private-owned system, there is no way it could ever be a binding voting platform, but it has a role in the M5S narrative. "Every single citizen can vote on anything because DEMOCRACY". So, on Monday, the subscribed users of this platform voted on "Prosecuting Salvini: yes or no?". It ended 59% no to 41% yes. 52000 people voted. Salvini won't be prosecuted, because the people have cast their vote. Elections in three months, forecasts say that Lega will get to 34%, PD and M5S are fighting for the second place. Char fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 11:40
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Char posted:
Imagine attempting to control a nation with the SA userbase at the helm Tafferling fucked around with this message at 13:58 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 13:48
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Also the way the question was formulated was some convoluted confusing bullshit made deliberately so to ensure people either don't know what to vote or vote the 'right' way. Like, the only thing it was lacking was to have the 'good' checkbox be huge and the other one tiny like in that nazi germany referendum on giving or not power to the nsdap.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:11
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I'd like to add that the platform, apparently, was flooded with too many users at the same time (straight 502 error until 2-3PM), which is perfectly normal because 52k concurrent users are something not even our high techlords could handle, I mean, SA is having only 3k people online right now!
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Feb 20, 2019 14:13
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