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“Gli inglesi, gente che andava nuda a caccia di marmotte quando noi già s'accoltellava un Giulio Cesare.” Fascisti su Marte, 2006 (which traslates into: “the British, people hunting marmots naked, while we were already assassinating a guy named Julius Caesar”. It applies to most other nationalities!) Welcome to the long acclaimed Italian Politics Megathread! What, Germans and French are allowed to have their own thread, we want one too! There’s a lot of juicy stuff happening within our borders which ranges from the “interesting” to the “wait, what, is this a joke?” - European Elections are around the corner and there’s going to be a lot of content worth reposting. As I already explained in the post I wrote after our elections in 2018… we’ll let’s try to recap how this country works. Brief history Well, it’s hard to be brief, but I’ll try. Let’s skip the populations we had pre-Roman times: in 753 BC Rome is founded. It ends up inventing the term “republic” and then turns into an empire whose boundaries grew gradually until it circled the totality of the Mediterranean Sea. Like Greek philosophists laid the foundation of philosophy, Roman bureaucrats laid the foundation of how a country should be run, regarding expansion, cultural integration, military, urbanistic planning, social castes, the relationship between religion and state and so on. This left a huge legacy, because most of the wealth the Empire drew from its provinces ended up being spent mostly in the easily-reachable lands around Rome - basically, the whole Italian Peninsula (Alps and the sea were quite the obstacle, even if the Roman Empire reached Britain too). This legacy still lives in our culture today, because Rome is still standing and many of the symbols of progress Romans implemented are still visible today. But the Empire fell in 395 AD, ravaged by civil wars. The Empire was getting too hard to control and bad governance made it easy to barbarian tribes to destroy any sovereignty the Empire had over its citizens. From this point in history, until 1875, Italy was a collection of different states, ranging from “as big as a town” to “as big as half the country”. It starts as the smoldering remains of the Holy Roman Empire, States that were often in competition for maritime trading, manufacturing and art. What’s important is that despite not being a single country, Italy had already some kind of cultural and territorial identity. Comedy ensues when part of the population wants to stop being a colony of other empires, while other colonies are happy of their current situation. Well, it’s more complex than this, but after 60 years of political wrestling with all the empires owning some of our land, and political wrestling with the Italian population itself, we somehow become a monarchy. This is a key point in our modern history, because it was not a transformation that was equally desidered or equally received between all regions. Then we turn into a fascist state after WW1, we do our tried and true team-switch trick during WW2, and after the war, the temporary government indicts a referendum where the population is asked if they want to become a republic or go back to a monarchy. 54% of the population voted for “Republic”. It boggles my mind every time I think about this, there has been a voting where a country had to choose between becoming a republic or a monarchy. Now, my opinion is that if 46% of the population votes for a Monarchy, it means a huge minority of the population is happy in delegating totally the state affairs to a ruling class. What happens next is that we become a Parliamentary Republic, and from the 50s to the 90s the parliament is completely controlled by our de-facto aristocracy, Democrazia Cristiana. Scandal after scandal, the terrible governance of that ruling class is exposed in a series of highly debated trials, and the Mani Pulite investigation ends up destroying t. That’s when Berlusconi entered the scene. But that man had his 20 years of fame, now it’s time to discuss the new arrivals. Government, Parliament and Justice Italy is a Parliamentary Republic, sporting about 66 million people and only God knows how many of us are abroad. The main actors in our state system are… The President of the Italian Republic Hail to the President, baby. Unlike the US President, he’s just a scales-balancing figure, which makes this role way more important than it seems. Constitution states that any citizen who is fifty or older on election day and enjoys civil and political rights can be elected president, and there’s no term limit. He is elected, under secret ballot by the Parliament, and the negotiations preceding its nomination and election have often crippled unspoken alliances. It is a role intended to be for a reliable, balanced, wise and proven statesman.  Position currently held by Sergio Mattarella (77). This is the only time I won’t be dismissive or ironic, because the man sports an impressive pedigree and is considered, as usual for the role, one of the few competent and reasonable political figures in our state (I’d also add that it’s easier to be a wise and liked politician when you don’t have to answer to a political campaign). He entered politics after the assassination of his brother in 1980. His article on Wikipedia is worth a read to get a bearing on why I said before that the politicians under Democrazia Cristiana were the aristocrats of their time. The Government Now it’s time for the meme-worthy guys spearheading our venture into this brave new fascist world. Our government exercises the executive power. It offers the most important and exposed political position: the Prime Minister, which oversees the activities of the Council of Ministries. Each Minister is an office who proposes laws regarding its specific domain of activity. We have a Ministry of Internal Affairs, a Ministry of Economic Development, a Ministry of External Affairs, and so on.  Our current Prime Minister. Giuseppe Conte (54). The noteworthy thing about this man is that he...well… “fell” into the PM position. Not by complete chance, but by circumstances. You see, he’s a political nobody. He was a Professor of Private Law before entering office, but he has ZERO pedigree, previous involvements with politics or management. Problem is, after the 2018 general elections, it was clear there would have been no way to form a coalition. Political wrestling ensued, and the only way for a government to form was to have a nobody, unknown and unaffiliated, enter the office. This guy was in the right waiting list. Under him, we have, for the first time in our history, two Vice Prime Ministers.  Matteo Salvini (45), secretary of Lega, here shown in one of his latest tweets, eating nutella. Known for his successful renovation of the Lega Nord party, now simply called Lega, for his aggressively populistic public relationship strategy (he even tweeted after-sex photos), and for being the personification of current Italian xenophoby. Currently our Minister of Internal Affairs as well.  Luigi Di Maio (32), “political leader” of M5S. Known for being a drink seller at the San Paolo Stadium in Napoli. Currently our Minister of Economic Development and Minister of Social Politics and Employment. The Parliament  Where our law proposals are discussed and voted. It is split into two chambers, the “senators” and the “deputies”. When it works as intended, a law is discussed, is eventually rejected or accepted, modified, its modifications are modified, and so on. When it works as intended. And finally, the other important entities which have no know clowns at their forefront: The Judiciary of Italy, which exercises the judiciary power. The High Council of the Judiciary, Which governs the Judiciary The Costitutional Court, Which analyzes laws, both in proposed and accepted form, and has the power to make them null and void if they’re ruled as not compliant with the Constitution. -- Out of time, I've got to stop here: I wanted to be brief and I failed. Next up: election system, current critical situations and balance of power, more dramatis personae. Feel free to ask whatever you're curious about, even outside the political sphere. Here in Italy, noone accepts the fact that mostly everything is political, but it actually is. -- EDIT: I'll be adding links to insightful posts here. Government system, current political balance Statuto speciale regions What is ILVA? Char fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 2, 2019 22:20
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Second part. This is harder than I thought, I'm afraid it's a bit incoherent, but as I said before, feel free to ask. Onwards! How we choose our leaders Our government term is 5 years. We vote under a mixed system, where, for each of the two Chambers, we citizens are asked to express a preference. Roughly one third of the Chamber composition is decided on national vote counts, while the other two thirds are decided based on local voting. “Local voting” means each voting station is grouped with others, on territorial basis: each party is supposed to officially register a list of people related to these groups, and the more votes a party gets in a specific group, the more people from the associated list enter the Parliament. The voter is not allowed to cast a vote to a specific person in this list, nor is allowed to cast a vote that gives national preference to a party and local preference to another one. A couple of noteworthy facts: this is the fourth electoral system we’re seeing in the span of 25 years, three of which we’ve actually used, and the third one was arguably the downfall of the Renzi administration. It should be evident how the voting system reflects the territorial fragmentation of the country. It doesn’t look like we’re actually voting for a specific government because it’s supposed to be this way: after the elections, we know only how many seats each party has in both Chambers of the Parliament, but given the nature of the institution - the Parliament accepts or rejects law proposals - it would be impossible to form a government which is not in accordance with its majority. Once a new Parliament is formed, the President has to discuss with every party which entered its proposals for a new government, and eventually offers the Prime Minister position to whoever managed to propose a government whose political views and consequential law proposals won’t be shot down, hopefully, for its 5 years of term. It is therefore not unusual to see shifts in power during a single term, and a partial renovation of a government before going to new elections. This happened recently, for instance, with the Monti and Gentiloni administrations. Currently, this is how the Parliament is composed. Deputies  Majority (352)
Lega (125) Mixed (7) Opposition (277)
FI (105) FdI (32) Mixed (15) LeU (14)  Majority (167)
Lega (58) Mixed (6) Opposition (153)
PD (52) FdI (18) Mixed (7) Autonomies (8) (Remember, the Parliament votes laws, so the government needs to be able to secure a majority - look at the numbers again!) Main actors  Movimento 5 Stelle, the yellow dots. Network, 1976 posted:So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window. Open it, and stick your head out, and yell: I'M AS MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE THIS ANYMORE! In 2013, M5S enters the fray. Built on the growing malcontent of the financial crisis of 2008, the terrible Berlusconi administration, and the reparations applied by the Monti government, it finally got traction as the relationship of trust between the population and the two major parties of that time reached a breaking point. It was, supposedly, bottom-up democratic movement, turned out to be propaganda fuel for a private company. Along the way, it got increasingly clear there was no real vision behind the project - no POLITICAL vision, I mean - and it became truth as soon as some of their representatives managed to become mayor in major cities. Due to its nature, it has no clear political identity: it had to be a sponge for every single episode of malcontent to gain momentum, and it couldn’t let go anything to be where it is now. It is also embarrassingly clear how much of the hidden decision makers of the party hold contempt towards certain ideas they’ve used to campaign. In 2019, it is not clear what future has in store for M5S, because despite being this old, it still didn’t grow its own ruling class, nor has made any effort to fix in stone, in both an overt and covert manner, what is the core political vision of the party. As things are right now, it tries to show a socialist face but is looking more like a band of incompetent and ignorant people. Not one single proposal from their camp actually tackled any issue Italy has right now, and it is unknown how long the voters will accept this.  Lega, the green dots. Matteo Salvini, 2017 posted:Putin? I said it more than once, I have high regards for him, both as a man and as a political leader. Once known as Lega Nord, this party was born in 1989 as a consequence of the fusing of six different independentist movements. It started as a separatist/federalist party, acting with the sole regards of the northern regions of Italy. It usually had huge success within parts of said regions, because it clearly acted with a FYGM policy towards the rest of the country. Then Berlusconi turned it into his pet party, as they were natural allies - the party lost its separatist soul, then faded into nothingness until Matteo Salvini took its helm. Matteo Salvini, once a representative of the self defined communist section of Lega Nord (I’m not joking), managed to find the right rhetoric to conquer Italian hearts. Taking a page from the M5S propaganda machine, but actually using competent spin doctors and politicians from what actually used to be a real party, he appeared as the everyman who has clear and easy to understand views of the current problems, values of mutual support (of fellow Italians only), goals and will to solve them - slaughtering every sacred cow is in his way. This is a very neutral description of his poltical platform. Under the surface, he’s appealing to the latent ur-fascism our country still has, as he’s shown very often he appreciates casual/pseudo/literal fascists groups. Through a careful spinning of social rethorics - for instance, crime is an all time low in Italy, yet most Italians fear whatever’s outside their homes, because the winning rhetoric is that there’s too many migrants out there - he’s offered another convenient, albeit more radical, comfortable escape route for those who expressed the malcontent I’ve described in the M5S paragraph. In 2019, they can only go up.  Forza Italia, the blue dots. Silvio Berlusconi, 2011 posted:It doesn’t look like to me Italy is going through a crisis. It is a rich country, demand isn’t lower, planes are always overbooked and the restaurants are full. In 2019, Lega is going to finish its meal and cannibalize this dying party.  Partito Democratico, the orange dots. Matteo Renzi, multiple times between 2015 and 2016, referring to the 2016 Referendum (and "No" won). posted:If NO wins, I’ll abandon any political activity. Has been the home of many views, despite its clear initial mission, and never managed to make sure there’s a functional majority within itself. The only left “former” party which has really a ruling class and which tried to grow a new generation of statesmen, has managed to fail to meet the expectations of most of Italian population after a shocking 40% preference at the European Elections of 2014, by catering (or appearing to cater) too much towards the middle class, enterpreneurs and finance. Is currently undergoing a strong identity crisis because Matteo Renzi cannot accept Italy rejected him, and noone else has the guts or skill to exert any power to answer to the centreleft wing issues of contemporary times. In 2019, they’ll either split into different parties and try to keep momentum, wait for an opportunity to recover centre-left voters lost to M5S, or die into nothingness. You saw there's a "Mixed" group, there's a FdI (which stands for "Fratelli D'Italia") group and a LeU (which stands for "Liberi ed Uniti") group? I'll go into their detail later, becuase they're minor actors... but still an important part of our political landscape. I'll try to make a more memeworty "dramatis personae", as we've got plenty of silly material actually. Current balance of power Built upon a compromise between two different parties, the “Contratto di Governo”, in which both M5S and Lega specified which goals this government would have to reach, this government has the uncanny ability of looking both fragile and robust at the same time. Their bigger strength ir propaganda. Most of Italy didn’t have the cultural means to understand what globalization was in 2000, and still is struggling in accepting it in 2019. As a population, we have a very weak point in our inability to accept what’s not part of the narrative we’ve grown to live in, and this is the exact weak spot that M5S and Lega managed to target. The robustness this government shows is the promise of a scapegoat for all of our problems. At the same time, the fragility it shows is tied to this: lacking any shared political vision, the two parties at the command are trying to eat each other. Add the fact that M5S has, as I said before, no political culture or legacy in its ranks: the chance of making critical mistakes, for both the country and the party, is getting higher as both parties are forced to keep up with their promises. There is virtually no opposition: despite the many mistakes this government is making, there’s noone to capitalize on that, because noone else has yet understood how’s the best way to speak to Italians in these specific years. Our relationship with Europe is pretty weak, as we’re simply banking on being too big to fail, and our lack of political credibility makes it impossible to create any significant dialogue with the rest of the members. A mirror of this is our relationships with the rest of the world, where we have little negotiation whatsoever. Feel free to ask for examples. Currently, our negotiation power is so weak that we’ve got to accept any deal either finance or industry forces onto us. Critical issues looming We have the historic issues of public debt, corruption, inequality, stark difference in development between the north and the south of Italy, and a lack of common national values. Currently, we’re having to deal with the consequences of such historical issues: unemployment, inability to offer a single national political vision, and the degradation of culture and morals. European Elections are on the horizon, the propaganda machine is going to be in full force less than a month from now. Once again: if you have specific questions,  I'll try to maintain the thread as new , discussion-worthy stuff comes out. To the other Italians: ho cercato di mantenermi più neutro possibile. Se sono sembrato troppo o troppo poco generoso, è perché per dovere di divulgazione ho preferito presentare le cose a tal maniera. Char fucked around with this message at 17:19 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 13:09
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Wengy posted:Love Italy but am confused by it. Please post more about the batshit electoral system and my favorite region (Liguria) It's not THAT batshit, imho. The fact we had 3 (and a failed proposal) different systems in 25 years, on the other hand... Regarding Liguria, I don't know if other italgoons are from there, I'll let them answer first - I'm from Tuscany. I Love Annie May posted:It's actually 1861 the year when the Kingdom of Italy was founded, and 1870 when the capital was moved to Rome after the conquest of the Papal State, but other than those mistakes good op. Welp. It's one of the parts of our history I remember the worst. I don't know why I was remembering 1875, and I missed a lot of doublechecking. Sorry for the mistake! Vincent Van Goatse posted:So, uh, what the hell is going on in Italy and how bad is it likely to get? Like, just in general, I mean. I need a narrower definition of "what the hell". I mean, there's a lot of weird social phenomena going on right now: fascism has its roots, anti-immigration sentiments have a lot in common with fascism roots but shouldn't be mistaken for the exact sovrapposition of two different phenomena; the lack of goals to steer the country towards is another different issue. How bad is it likely to get: it is already pretty bad if you live in the unluckiest parts of the country, you'll probably be ok if you live around Milan. You see, as I said in the EU thread, something that is really hard to grasp regarding Italy is that, unlike most unifications in history, ours wasn't a wholly felt need. Even nowadays, Giuseppe Garibaldi, the mastermind behind the military campaign that made it possible to unify Italy, is less revered than Mussolini, for instance. Let me phrase it differently: if you ask a random Italian this specific question, "did the efforts of Garibaldi make Italy a better place", he'll probably have to think about the answer. And maybe he won't answer at all. After the fragmentation of the Roman Empire, 1400 years of competition, rivarly or mild warfare between neighbouring cities created strong boundaries in our culture: the result is that the average Italian mind has, in my opinion, a more stratified perception of ingroups and outgroups than the average western. After turning into a single country, no Italian government except for the fascist regime tried to give the whole population a foundation of values, ideals, minimum guaranteed services, and so on. Before globalization, the stratified vision of groups was easy to decipher: If you're from my street, you're a friend. If you're from a different part of town, you're a rival. If you're from the outskirts, you're an ignorant peasant who should pay the taxes to benefit my services. If you're from a nearby town, you're my economic competitor. If you're from another region, you're a foreigner, which means I'll have to refer to the notorious stereotypes regarding your region to communicate with you. If you're from another country, well, you're a foreigner as well, but you don't even speak my language and your stereotypes are even broader, and built on past history your country has with mine. (oh, and if you're from Pisa... well. You know. Everywhere in the world, some expat or tourist has written somewhere "Pisa Merda". It's one of our oldest proto-meme.) Then globalization hits and your stratified vision of outgroups is outdated, because there's this huge void: foreigners whose history you know nothing about that end up living in your street. Everything in your model is messed up, friends end up going abroad, the outskirts become the cradle of the new middle class, your economic competitors shut down and you start wondering if you're next on the chopping block, you name it. It's a bit roundabout way to say that the average Italian still has a mindset where the foreigner is everyone born outside your 20km radius of existance, and no government managed to alter, much less break, this way of thinking. Even worse, some governments even colluded with it: our role in the European economy until the early '90s was providing cheap manifacturing. Our most used short term monetary strategy was constantly de-valuing the Lira Italiana becuase if it got too strong we'd stop being cheap to other countries. Never try to become bigger and never try to unify with your allies. Anyone who has a different mindset is the byproduct of either the efforts of individuals who wanted to show their children the outside world, or the victim of globalization. I don't think I have answered your question, but I think I've outlined the frames of which "bad" could go "worse". Char fucked around with this message at 17:17 on Jan 3, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 14:12
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Wengy posted:This is very interesting and it actually kind of sort of clarifies something I’ve always found extremely baffling and troubling, namely the fact that the Italian football authorities seem to punish “regional discrimination” more harshly than actual racism. Apart from the FIGC probably being a bunch of racists themselves, this could also be viewed as a reaction to a perceived lack of homogeneity and social cohesion in a country that doesn’t really want to be a country, so a northerner chanting something offensive about dirty terroni can come to be viewed as a worse threat than a football fan who throws a banana peel at a black player. Supremely weird and interesting. 1. I think you're being too optimist. I think it's more of a pragmatic measure: throwing banana peel at black players will rile up a small minority which has no voice and no power. Letting regional discrimination run rampant leads to riots in the streets. 2. While every city has a Piazza/Via Garibaldi, it's hardly ever the most important site in the city, for the already mentioned reasons. Most cities were already well developed when unification happened. He's just a guy in recent Italian history. Cavour... well, I'd be surprised if most people knew the differences between the views between them. It's just parts of history that might or might not have any meaning in the cultural identity of the city. I can assure that the three Italians that answered so far (me, SlowBloke and mortons stork) can confirm that between FVG, Tuscany and Puglia, there's pretty much nothing in common regarding local identities. 3. We have standards to uphold, and what makes good food is one of the few things we Italians all agree on. Also, undying attachment to tradition: pizza was good a couple centuries ago, we skeptically tried to see how it goes when you change the recipe... and it's worse! Sorry progress, but we like our brick ovens. Ornedan posted:Global warming seems to be missing from that critical issues list? I'm not surprised that M5S/Lega would be ignoring it, but is an out of context problem for the entire Italian political system? Let me explain further what SlowBloke said. Italy's renewable energy target for 2020 was effectively met by 2014, and that's arguably because most of our heavy industry is dead. Anything else is is out of our hands, and it takes a good relationship with research and university to move to the forefront of innovations. Our blessing is having a renewable-friendly land, with our rivers, mountain profiles and sun exposition: no government ever has treated research as a priority, therefore we're not innovating in that sector, we're just using what the land provided us. On the other hand, the average Italian has some attachment to his environment, therefore on every single brochure you'll see during campaigning, there's always a footnote saying "pushing ecological policies". It rarely amounts to anything specific. One important note: most of our CO2 production comes from This would need, once again, a more specific analysis, the tl;dr version is that what's realistic, doable and environmentally friendly is "simply" moving towards railroad transportation and insulating our 60-200 years old houses. Something that requires too much planning finesse to be a hot discussion topic. Lord Stimperor posted:Joining on p1 Cat Mattress posted:Probably banging underage girls because what else can he do to pass the time until his ineligibility expires and he gets to reclaim the throne of Italy once more? He's going to be eligible in a couple months! But he lost his grasp on the public. He was the king of TV, but didn't manage to adapt to the existence of social medias (well, he's 83). I think it's very unlikely he'll have any strong presence in the coming years. Char fucked around with this message at 10:10 on Jan 4, 2019 |
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Jan 3, 2019 21:30
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Content. This week started with: -PD-supported mayors going against the new "Security Law" Lega pushed last fall. A group of mayors actually went out and said "I'll make sure this law is not applied". Reasons cited: it's anti-constitutional, it makes obtaining a permit for non-comunitarian non-students almost impossible, it's anti-humanitarian, it's Lega-made. Mind that it's only PD supported mayors. Despite the sorry state the party is right now, at a local level it's still one of the main political forces in certain regions of Italy. As Thoreau said, "Civil disobedience", but only against our political enemies. -Finally, the Reddito di Cittadinanza is explained. You might have hear M5S going all-in on a thing called "Reddito di Cittadinanza" - somwthing like a "citizenship income". It needs a meme, something like the "they said it would be - you thought it was - it actually is", because it started as a very socialistic measure against low wages/unemployment, to make sure every citizen is sent back into employment or training by having the welfare pay them a reasonable minimum quota. While it was clear it was something completely unfeasible, part of the voters still wanted to give M5S a chance and put this proposal in motion. Well, it turns out that you are eligible for this service if you're incredibly poor and own next to nothing. If you're simply poor and own anything, it's very likely you won't eligible. And if you opt in and are actually eligible, you'll have to accept one job offer out of the three the state will find you. The catch? The third one can be anywhere in the country. its_something.jpg Dommolus Magnus posted:This is perhaps a seed of an explanation, but I think it falls a bit short as Germany had a very similar history to Italy yet still ended up with a more or less unified identity. It was more than four.  And, no, they didn't have same population or economic power. Nonetheless, either there wasn't enough disparity of power, or enough cultural closeness to allow the Kingdom of Sardinia, despite spearheading the unification movement, to impose its own cultural identity onto the would-be Italians. Anyway, others might offer more insightful replies. I don't actually know how Germany didn't follow our same path, identity-speaking. what's your take? Gort posted:Yeah, I vote for this. I love learning foreign slang and idioms. Well well... Have you ever heard of the art of "bestemmia"? The art of swearing against God. mortons stork posted:I'm in favour of English only. We're trying to get out the message of how our incredibly depressing politics can be made understandable to a wider audience, if it's supposed to be the Bar Sport I can just go down the street for that with the added bonus that I can drink heavily there. Same. I like the spoilers in Italian. SlowBloke posted:[...] I was one of the lucky ones that got caught in the nets [...]
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Jan 7, 2019 16:09
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SlowBloke posted:Trieste sì ma ultima lettera del MIUR, di più non mi espongo visto che siamo letteralmente quattro gatti, se dico di più tanto vale che metto la carta d'identità Figurati, è l'ironia del confermare che almeno due dei quattro gatti "lavorino per il MIUR". A percezione il tuo contesto è analogo al mio e mi fermo qua perché anche per me bastano due informazioni chiave ed è come postare la carta di identità 
Char fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 7, 2019 |
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Jan 7, 2019 18:52
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Raspberry Jam It In Me posted:Oh hey, it's Hartz Quattro. Congratulations, child poverty is going up Up UP! If - and this is a big if - it works as intended, the benefit is the chance to get a job somewhere in Italy, and, if you're poor enough, up to 780 euro/month.
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Jan 7, 2019 18:53
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It's funny: in English, there's a word that cannot be directly translated : "accountability". We don't have a term that neatly explains this concept. "Bestemmia" works the other way around - there's not an English word that explains the concept. It's "swearing but inserting a religious character (mostly God, Jesus or Mary) in the swear sentence". The most similar thing that exists in English is "Goddamn", which doesn't convey the same heavyness of our bestemmia. Also, it's another regional thing: the people I've known from north-eastern Italy were really vehement while using this kind of swearing, while here in Tuscany it's more of a way to... fill dialogue. From my experience Venetians/Friulans sound really angry whenever they swears this way, while around here it's usually more relaxed. They're almost sayings, especially in rural areas. I don't have many acquatainces from FVG, though. It's pretty vulgar and ineducated, but it usually is a good indicator of how angry is the person speaking. There's some kind of stigma associated - you know you shoulnd't use that kind of swearing because it's against God in In catholicism, it's actually sinning - but it really depends on the region. I'm not lying, one of the priests around my city once said that there are situations where it's ok, because if you hurt yourself really badly, for instance, or you almost scored but something went wrong while playing post-catechism soccer, it's ok, because Jesus will forgive you. You still shoulnd't swear against God, but you'll be forgiven. One of the proto-memes I remembe from my teen years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH_2S6bmk2A Whenever you hear "Dio" or "Madonna" something, it's... that. Some of us find this stuff incredibly funny. This ... "way of saying" was much more frowned upon before the 2000s, nowadays I'm reading/hearing "porco dio" pretty much everywhere. Oh, right, I almost forgot: girls and women SHOULD NOT be doing this, it's considered a disgrace. Women aren't really allowed to be this vulgar. Double standards et al. edit: ah, catechism. We should talk about this sooner or later. Char fucked around with this message at 01:18 on Jan 8, 2019 |
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Jan 8, 2019 01:08
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Wengy posted:Leoluca Orlando gave an interview to my local Swiss paper today and that man is an absolute hero. What gave you this impression? Toplowtech posted:Buongiorno Italian thread, can we discuss the current French-Italian frontier ? See i come from the French thread and let's be honest it's our perspective that we are currently doing to Italy what England did to us in Calais for the last 10-20 years: blocking a migrant population that would otherwise just loving walk and swim to England anyway, all that with no concern for 1) the migrants' quality of life while stuck 2) the place they end up stuck at 3)the fact the local far right will grow like crazy because of the whole nonsensical situation. So how bad is the impact of the situation in Piedmont? In Piedmont? Mostly the same as other regions. This map shows the percentage of migrants compared to the regional population.  This map is from January 2017, so it's a bit old, but nothing so far suggests huge local shifts. I'm not from that area of Italy but there's nothing suggesting significant worsening of quality of life in Piedmont.
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Jan 15, 2019 10:34
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http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/mondo/europa/2019/01/21/ambasciatore-italia-convocato-a-parigi_2fcb028e-8c65-4478-a025-4aa053f80a1c.html Ma che cazzo gli salta in mente? O meglio: che razza di strategia politico-comunicativa ci vedete? Questi non hanno neanche un grande ovile cui farsi accettare in ambito elezioni europee. Non capisco proprio.
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Jan 21, 2019 21:09
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mortons stork posted:Well, it's not like anything he said about the French is untrue. It's just that it's probably useless blustering with 0 strategy, in an attempt to reinforce the idea that they aer speaking truth to power, and could you please please vote us again and not salvini???? No, I agree on that - but I'd use diplomacy instead of aggression, when discussing the predatory policies of a supposedly allied country.
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Jan 21, 2019 23:15
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It always boils down to this, either you want to concede sovereignty to Europe and have a common policy/plan of action/stance/rhetoric/whatever, or you don't want to, and it goes back to calling out each other on contrasting policies.
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Jan 22, 2019 11:39
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SlowBloke posted:What I find extremely weird is that after the UK goes on their merry way, france is going to be the sole military nuclear power in the EU and making GBS threads on the desk of a nuke equipped country would have been a rather quick way to get glassed in another era.... I don't think that M5S is really speaking their hearts but instead finding a strawman to rile electors towards them(Does anyone have recent polls? I think that their rates have been far from optimal in recent months)  https://www.termometropolitico.it/1381996_sondaggi-elettorali-tecne-40.html There's no way a NATO+EU+Euro country would attack another NATO+EU+Euro country. If France wants to attack us, they can keep doing what they've been doing so far: keep buying our vaguely profitable top companies.
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Jan 22, 2019 13:18
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SlowBloke posted:Surprised about the M5S gaining ground, everyone i chit chat with that voted them is unlikely to vote them again. Well, you saw what happened in Cagliari: core M5S voters simply stop voting when they're out of patience. queste mi sembrano proiezioni "fragili" - cioè, basate su un consenso che va ancora messo alla prova dei fatti. Anche dal mio punto di vista c'è del rimorso sensibile sul voto verso i 5s, ma finché le alternative non esistono... cioè, al momento cosa c'è di percettibile? Il listone Calenda, il congresso di +Europa? Altro? Char fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Jan 22, 2019 |
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Jan 22, 2019 17:00
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Another great display of statesmanship. TL;DR: Salvini gonna Salvini, "I need to show I want to prove Europe doesn't want to have an immigration policy but I have to do it while keeping my voters' belief they're right in being xenophobes - aha, here's the ship I need to block, this one has media coverage, who cares about the others". It's even more lovely than the usual because it exposes how there's no clear role or accountability in state authorities. Rules say one thing, the minister says something else, the local coastal guard says something else, and political opposition say something else. Who is right? No way to prove it. edit: more context: Salvini is a social media star and promoted, among the other hashtags, "#portichiusi" ("we won't allow migrants to dock in our ports"). Cue the government releasing a document stating ports are still open and migrants are still reaching us. Char fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Jan 28, 2019 |
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Jan 28, 2019 16:04
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Government is totally going to dissolve after the european elections. Industrial production took a huge hit in the last months, which is a huge disappointment for a large part of Lega voters; Lega and M5S cannot agree on what to do regarding the Torino-Lyon railway and their positions are pretty much opposite; once again another display of statesmanship in mantaining our relationships with our neighbouring countries - personal opinion, way to go guys, let's go all scorched earth with the countries with centuries of shared history and values. Government will dissolve because it's getting exponentially harder to hide all the huge structural issues we're dealing with. There's also the matter of the last BTP sale - this will be a VERY rough year. Off topic. SlowBloke, non è che per puro caso eri a Pisa ieri, vero? Char fucked around with this message at 15:26 on Feb 8, 2019 |
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Feb 8, 2019 11:56
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If you're not caught in the sunken cost fallacy of having to justify your vote for either of these parties, it is pretty evident they're scrambling to keep their consensus. They're salting the earth in order to keep four million votes. The most likely situation, IMHO, is a Monti-II situation.
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Feb 8, 2019 12:05
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Work is keeping me away from activity.SlowBloke posted:Mai stato a Pisa in vita, che ti ha dato a pensare che fossi io? Era messo così male quel povero cristo? Latest news! First of all, industrial production took a hit. As expected, the economic situation is not going to improve anytime soon. More or less, revenues went down 7.3% compared to Q4 2017. The government isn't spending a single word on this issue. But there's a major  event.The article on ANSA doesn't cover the juicy bits. Back in August, our government basically forced a coast guard ship to stand by (with all its passengers, which were mostly migrants) for a number of days, without the proper legal coverage for such an action. It was a publicity stunt, obviously: the problem is, it was a stunt made without making sure the laws were on the right side of the matter. So, Salvini, being the one who created the case and rode the media during the stunt, got a request for prosecution for alleged kidnapping. There were other charges as well, but law already said theese charges held no ground (as in: "ok, the prosecution request has been reviewed, it holds ground"). Fast forward to a month ago, the prosecution followed its iter, and Salvini says: "feel free to prosecute me, I'm in the right". A couple of days later: "don't prosecute me". Then, a couple of days later: "if you prosecute me, remember this is something that has been agreed upon the whole government, you'd have to prosecute them as well". Then, another couple of days later, the M5S side of the government: "we did this together, you'd have to prosecute us as well". The answer? "No big deal, we'll prosecute whoever is involved, assuming the Senate will allow us". Guess what happens? The answer is "ok, the Senate won't allow that" with a twist. Part of M5S rhetoric stands (or uset to stand) firmly on the excess of privileges the political caste has. Like, for instance, immunity for members of the parliament/government. So... what do we do now? Do we go against our rhetoric, creating a potential political crisis, or do we try sweeping this stuff under the rug? LET'S ASK OUR VOTER BASE! M5S has an online voting platform. It's a completely private-owned system, there is no way it could ever be a binding voting platform, but it has a role in the M5S narrative. "Every single citizen can vote on anything because DEMOCRACY". So, on Monday, the subscribed users of this platform voted on "Prosecuting Salvini: yes or no?". It ended 59% no to 41% yes. 52000 people voted. Salvini won't be prosecuted, because the people have cast their vote. Elections in three months, forecasts say that Lega will get to 34%, PD and M5S are fighting for the second place. Char fucked around with this message at 11:42 on Feb 20, 2019 |
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Feb 20, 2019 11:40
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I'd like to add that the platform, apparently, was flooded with too many users at the same time (straight 502 error until 2-3PM), which is perfectly normal because 52k concurrent users are something not even our high techlords could handle, I mean, SA is having only 3k people online right now!
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Feb 20, 2019 14:13
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It's just a propaganda tool to give grounds to a specific rhethoric. It's privately-owned, the outcome of any question asked there could be easily manipulated. I'd like to remind everyone that it has been hacked more than once, a lot of personal information regarding M5S financers and executives has been on pastebin for a short while.
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Feb 20, 2019 14:41
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That's not the only problem. -It's asking the unwashed masses to speak their mind about a delicate matter; -It's a non-binding vote; -It's on a privately owned platform; -Its owner has already proven how incompetent they are regarding IT practices; and, finally, it goes against most of what M5S stood for: this is the least thing.GBS would control a nation way better than these charlatans.
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Feb 20, 2019 19:42
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Heyyy what's up? RL kept me busy. So, we're here, ready to witness our government blow up in, more or less, seven days. As predicted months ago, consensus for every major party has long peaked and everyone's looking for an exit strategy to establish a "committee government", which will take the blame of our forecasted-and-budgeted-for tax increases.
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May 21, 2019 12:45
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To sum up whatever's been going on in our news in the last 15 days: 05/06: Armando Siri, a Lega politician and Ministry of Transports executive, is under investigation for corruption. 05/07: It is revealed that Regione Lombardia, the political entity in charge of managing the Lombardia region (that's where Milano is), is under investigation for corruption. 05/08: A self-proclaimed fascist book publisher, Altaforte, makes the rounds in our news as the organizators of the annual Italian Biggest Book Fair allow them to take part. Many other famous authors annouce they'll boycott the event, Altaforte is eventually kicked out. 05/09: Light cannabis shops are under the spotlight. They promove a degenerate lifestyle, let's close them all. Maybe. 05/10: PM Conte and VPM Di Maio say generic bad things about VPM Salvini; M5S is against allowing Nunzia De Girolamo as a RAI (national broadcast radio-tv network) broadcaster: she was a parliament member under Berlusconi; M5S and Salvini are booed at rallies; a migrant boat sinks while a NGO ship is blockaded. 05/11: VPM Di Maio criticizes Salvini's new public order law v2, still waiting for v3; PM Conte writes a letter where he states Italy isn't taking any position WRT what's happening in Venezuela. 05/12: VPM Salvini states these elections aren't about Europe, it's a Lega referendum; VPM Di Maio stats 1 BLN€ was the overall cashflow for our Mothers Day; VPM Salvini is booed again at another rally. 05/13: VPM Di Maio speaks against VPM Salvini, again; a Vatican high ranking priest turns back on the power distribution of a poor housing complex (that's houses built for poor families, basically), hijinks ensue as the power distribution was off due to a 330K€ unpaid bill; at a rally, firefighters remove homemade anti-Salvini banners on onlooking terraces and windows; a state prosecutor asks for a 1y detention sentence for Giuseppe Sala, mayor of Milan and EXPO 2015 executive, for, let's say, corruption. 05/14: For a change, VPM Salvini speaks against VPM Di Maio; a big reveal for the new "growth law", diaper bonuses for families; EU Court states that you cannot revoke refugee status and send back home people whose life is at risk. 05/15: BTP-Bund spread, an index that basically tells us how much debt Italy is accruing through government bonds: its increase creates rifts between the two VPMs one euro-deuptee is involved in an investigation; Sea Watch saves 65 migrants and Salvini proclaims it won't dock in any Italian dock. 05/16: BTP-Bund spread increases; Casa Pound, a neofascist party, is under the spotlights again as it annonunces they'll have a rally in a week; Lega is found being part of bribery; Gran Sasso under-mountain pass risks being closed, but won't be. 05/17: M5S speaks against VPM Salvini; a high school teacher is suspended as some of her students present an essay where parallels between the latest security law (those Salvini is so proud of) and notorious racial laws (those we had under the fascist govnerment) are drawn; as a huge amout of Italians doesn't know what to vote for, newspapers start providing hacked together tests to find one's affiliation. 05/18: ONU states it disagrees strongly with VPM Salvini's actions; on the other hand, he kisses a rosary during a mass in Milan... 05/19: ...and promptly, the Vatican says he's doing spiritual appropriation: the clergy won't stand for this, his actions aren't those of a True Catholic; VPM Salvini is fuming as Guardia di Finanza, our law enforcement agency under the Ministry of Economics, forces Sea Watch to dock to identify the passengers. 05/20: It is revealed that one article of the new security law includes punishment for those who help migrants; Giancarlo Giorgetti, PM secretary, Lega-affiliated, speaks against PM Conte's work so far: Conte tells him to eat his shorts; PM Conte pays a visit to the 2016 earthquake victims, forgetting that his own government isn't really doing much for them. 05/21: somehow, the security law v2 is ready but not ready to be voted on; under this law, dog housing is allowed more financing than migrants housing; Economy Minister Tria is getting exasperated by the situation, speaks against M5S: they answer back by telling him that he has to shut his trap and do his job. 05/22: Giancarlo Giorgetti states that this government cannot keep going on anymore; VPM Salvini says the government is fine; Berlusconi wants new elections; former Regione Lombaria governor Roberto Formigoni is being charged for graft upwards to 60M. As usual, I invite other Italian posters to add their ideas to what's going on, and non-Italian to feel free to ask for more specific information regarding anything I wrote. I just bought a new house, maybe it was not a good idea after all? edit: typos/syntax/others. Char fucked around with this message at 10:14 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 02:02
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Fair Bear Maiden posted:In all this darkness, I'm just glad I can see Formigoni going down for all his corruption. Homophobic fucker. Ironic he's homosexual, isn't it? Vincent Van Goatse posted:I kinda want to hear more about this absolute clusterfuck. Who hadn't paid their bills and why was dude from the Vatican able to turn the lights back on? Is the priest even the good guy in this situation? It's going to be a roundabout explaination. 1- What happened some days before. This building, https://imgur.com/a/Zf4NA8O , the project it houses is called "Spin Time" and is, in more general terms, a housing/social project. There's an auditorium, there's offices for social services there's trade workshops, there's housing for poor families. Newspapers say about 450 people live there. Legal hijinks make it so the residents cannot pay for their own energy consumption, and this makes paying bills kinda difficult for the project's legal front. ACEA, the energy supplier they're in agreement with, got fed of the multiple instances of delayed paying, and chose to turn off the lights. This was, IIRC, May 6th: "turn off the lights" means everything power-related, pumps for running water and sewage as well, is not working anymore. 2- Who is the priest? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Krajewski , a Cardinal of the Catholic Church. He's currently holding the seat of Almoner of His Holiness, so, everything checks out! Word got to him of this situation, and he said (or at least he said he said), "I'm the almoner, I will do something about this as this is simply common sense". 3- What happened? The newspapers say the cardinal simply asked where the power distribution system was, then he opened a hatch, he climbed down a well, then forced open the locks to the power switches, turned everything on, and finally left a calling card. I think it was a business card, but this is not clear. In further interviews, the cardinal basically gave the middle finger to Salvini and forced his hand in telling the Municipality that this situation has to be solved - the legal hijinks mentioned at point 1. 4- The aftermath: the cardinal can't be prosecuted because of he's more or less legally immune through the Lateran Treaty. So, police was only able to file an allegation toward unknown people. ACEA, the Municipality of Rome and the Vatican are trying to fix the situation. Doesn't this little bit of news have a really strong Old World feel? 
Char fucked around with this message at 09:53 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 09:46
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Dommolus Magnus posted:Is there no proper lock on these things or did he use the super strength I assume all cardinals have? The most likely scenario is there wasn't a proper lock, only a long stair. And, reasonably enough, noone there wanted to risk going to jail for the whole complex.
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May 23, 2019 13:43
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mortons stork posted:That's why they can't pay the bills, the utility company is legally not allowed to accept money from the occupiers as the occupation is illegitimate. The owner of the building would very much like it to be emptied to redevelop it as a hotel, but nobody's gonna throw out some 400 people (I guess, if they were migrants then they would), most of them families with children, on the streets. So the stalemate continues. Ah, I missed this. Thanks for clarifying! Anyway, we're way past the "shots fired" phase, M5S and Lega are firing volleys on each other. Come the 27th, we're going to see an even more split society. The VAT god demands a blood tribute.
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May 23, 2019 16:21
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SlowBloke posted:You are missing the best part about the euro elections quote:Scrivo malavoglia visto l'ultimo post dell'altro thread che mi è pure costata un bel probe mortacci sua... Non me ne sono andato e sto leggendo, giusto non voglio interagire troppo su D&D per evitare di poggiare un altro deca causa qualche altro genio del male. Char fucked around with this message at 17:51 on May 23, 2019 |
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May 23, 2019 17:48
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 What a beautiful photo.
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May 27, 2019 01:15
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He was thanking Blessed Mary for the election results.
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May 27, 2019 12:50
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Asking for a friend*. Guys, what do you know about Sea Watch 3 and cpt. Carola Rackete? Has there been any media coverage on the matter?
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Jul 2, 2019 12:25
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SlowBloke posted:Plenty of coverage, it has been a slow week mediawise for national news so journos have digged in. If you are worried about the captain, don’t. She’s a white young German woman who wanted to help the poor(but at least without going to some war torn country and getting ransomed, financing the terrorists) so if the sham court that the fashs are demanding is going to deliver anything against her, it’s going to be a slap on the wrist at best. Pissing off the krauts while the eu is still deciding how hard to gently caress us for balance issues is folly. Within our territorial boundaries, we had a lot of coverage, yeah. I'd like to know what's the media coverage elsewhere, in Germany for instance. No malice intended, I'm just trying to understand which narratives are being spun from this fact.
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Jul 4, 2019 11:37
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Tesseraction posted:Well that's a shame. Time for a Third Republic imo. Either we return to city states or... we coast along waiting for desertification.
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Jul 9, 2019 16:03
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SlowBloke posted:Visto che mi pare siamo sulla stessa barca qual’è la tua opinione di questo decreto concretezza? A me sinceramente frega nulla delle mie impronte, tanto ormai tra cie e spid che mi mi han schedato manco fossi riina e Facebook/Google/Apple a fare data mining sanno più loro di me che non me medesimo. phoneposting, quindi, scusa per la risposta arida. personalmente sono al corrente solo di due cose, il minor peso del titolo di studio nei concorsi e le impronte digitali. la prima: penso un bene complessivamente perché il bias che ti porta avere una strutturra composta perlopiù da laureati in giurisprudenza, economia e scienze politiche è percepibile... per contro rende i concorsi non meno arbitrari di quanto siano ora. la seconda: neanche un palliativo, un placebo costoso. il problema sta nel fatto che non ci sono controlli perché alla fine non conviene a nessuno essere così ligi alle regole in questi contesti. i dirigenti per primi falsano il numero di ore per cui lavorano per i propri enti... quindi? che cambia, prendere le impronte, se nessuno ha accountability diretta per una situazione di dolo?
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Jul 10, 2019 10:44
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Tesseraction posted:What is this concrete decree? Still phoneposting, but it is a quickly hacked measure to lower absence rates of public employees. Setting up biometric verification + cameras to make sure people aren't faking their clock in. There's currently some disagreements between our privacy guarantor (I don't know how to translate properly its name, it's basically the institution that makes sure every state policy complies with the respect of individual privacy) and the government, as it's perceived as a bit too invasive. Also, there's something regarding recruitment prerequisites, it seems we're slightly devaluing degrees, as currently they're pretty much obligatory and the right type of degree allows you to earn a better placement in our recruitment lists, even surpassing the importance of written/oral tests. @SlowBloke: ironia, lato tecnico ho lo stesso problema. L'ironia è che facciamo analogo lavoro! Io comunqie parlavo dando per scontato che le telecamere non le avremo mai. Poi la cosa che mi urta è che si tratta di una misura da applicare tout court quando il problema, almeno secondo me, richiede un po' più di nuance. Also: let me spread around that transcript. Our media mentioned absolutely nothing.
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Jul 10, 2019 11:28
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After a whole afternoon of discussion, the governement is officially disbanded. What happens now: our Republic President will speak with every parliament group, with the intention of finding any possible government, before calling for new elections. Highlight of the day: remember when I was saying Conte was a figurehead, without any real meaning or substance? Well, he openly said something along the line of "Salvini you're a coward, unlike me. Witness me resigning". Very cathartic! Too bad he's been the head of this terrible government, but his character has surely evolved in these last 14 months. Char fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 20:28
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Yeah, Salvini got roasted by someone who oversaw him and didn't do anything to oppose his policies, hell, his tones, his rhetoric, in 14 months. I'd argue that he was a complete outsider to the Italian politics game, but 14 months are quite a long time.
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Aug 20, 2019 22:34
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It's hard to tell right now. There's a huge demand of new looms to spin and weave all the new cloth everyone suddenly received. Paraphrasing, Salvini had huge consensus until last week, but yesterday's hearings exposed many weak points - despite being there since day 0, noone managed to expose them so far. This doesn't mean he won or he lost, there's simply the opportunity to spin a counter-narrative to his. We still have to see which narrative will emerge first.
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Aug 21, 2019 09:34
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SlowBloke posted:Piazza Affari seems to have reacted positively, all indexes are going slightly up right now. Non saprei che dire, Mentana ha fatto la solita maratona, ma a sei giorni da ferragosto mi aspetto che ancora le macchine mediatiche abbiano da rimettersi in moto. Comunque, finché non son finite le consultazioni, c'è poco di cui parlare, se non scenari ipotetici.
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Aug 21, 2019 09:58
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Well perhaps the government should make it illegal to have less than 10k euros on your bank account! Heya thread, sorry about my negligence. How are you all holding up?
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Mar 30, 2020 23:08
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SlowBloke posted:si tira avanti anche se sto tossendo il mondo, grazie anche al dover andare in ufficio a far portatili per gente inutile. Poi se non fossimo invasi qua nella discussione da marxisti passanti a farci la predica ci guadagneremmo tutti in salute in parte ti capisco perché anche io sto ancora andando in ufficio. no self doxxing ma penso facciamo analogo lavoro in analoghe strutture. ma hai sintomi preoccupanti oltre a tosse? com'è la situazione nelle tue immediate vicinanze? Today, we got some leaks regarding the new "don't even think anything will go back to normal until" date. It's under discussion, but expect no changes until May 4th.
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Mar 31, 2020 13:28
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