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ninjewtsu posted:nah, killing samurai is cool and good. losing yourself over to revenge is bad Hmm...the only time this show has had any samurai being killed is in this act of revenge. Not sure it's exactly pro samurai murder, here!
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Feb 12, 2019 06:49
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The episode was good, or whatever, but it didn't address any of the fundamental flaws with the new adaptation. Hyakkimaru just fought another wild animal, again. The biggest issue is the way they've tied Hyakkimaru's journey of recovery to the decline of the land itself. Nothing that happened in this episode would have happened if Hyakkimaru hadn't killed any demons. That kind of blunts the emotional impact, to me. That kind of blunts any perceived anti-samurai sentiment, because the samurai wouldn't have moved, wouldn't have had a reason to move, if Hyakkimaru recovering himself hadn't directly caused the war that's happening. clears throat IN THE ORIGINAL the punchline was that even though Daigo sold his son to demons for control of all Japan, he didn't get that, he was just some backwater commander at war with some other backwater commander and the people he ruled over were screwed over for it. That's way more compelling to me, and way more reflective of the reality of why people go to war and what happens to the people caught in between in the modern era to me, than any of this forced tragic shonen arc crap.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:00
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All that aside, let's get real: Hyakkimaru growing his leg back, again, is really stupid.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:06
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So I'm not just making GBS threads on this and being a total downer, what this episode did with Taohmaru excites me. He's a good son driven by a need to impress parents who are only reminded of their secret other son when they see him. That's pretty compelling stuff! The way the show has handled the slow teasing out of Dororo's backstory makes me feel good that they're going to do a good job telling it, and more than anything with Hyakkimaru it was Dororo who sold me on the original which is why the new calm caretaker Dororo is somewhat of a disappointment to me.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:38
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So its dumb in a series about demons that steal a baby's body parts to basically have one swap pieces with Hyakkimaru? Also I think this Daigo would kill and make war whether or not his demons were getting murdered, its just another reason for him to do so. His grunts still just butchered a bunch of kids and a woman that slept around to survive because they suspected someone to be a spy. We're not only going to get samurai actively targeting Hyakkimaru now, but have a places and people go to poo poo because the false paradise Daigo's deal created is almost halfway undone by now. Daigo and his system are still going to gently caress people over. Its not original, never will be. But Dororo 2019 is looking to have some teeth to what its gonna do.
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Feb 12, 2019 07:41
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GorfZaplen posted:HOw's that even work. Did two demons both claim his leg? The demons can only claim one body part at a time, so the moment it took the leg it gave up what it had before, which was the voice
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Feb 12, 2019 08:36
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why do you keep posting 4-6 times in a row my man
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Feb 12, 2019 08:58
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GorfZaplen posted:Hmm...the only time this show has had any samurai being killed is in this act of revenge. Not sure it's exactly pro samurai murder, here! it didn't humanize those samurai, and didn't paint their deaths as a bad thing either. it was bad for hyakkimaru to lose himself in a revenge mindset, a theme which was already ongoing with his refusal to wait until his wounds recovered before going after the monster. it is pro samurai murder, every time the samurai show up (these last couple of episodes and the demon sword episode), they'd been painted in a strictly horrific light, they've only caused awful things to happen, and no characters have been admonished for slaughtering them. as an internal theme, hyakkimaru seems to be going through an arc related to how his bloodlust isn't healthy for him personally, and that's a theme totally separate from whether or not samurai deserve to be on the receiving end of it. GorfZaplen posted:The episode was good, or whatever, but it didn't address any of the fundamental flaws with the new adaptation. Hyakkimaru just fought another wild animal, again. The biggest issue is the way they've tied Hyakkimaru's journey of recovery to the decline of the land itself. Nothing that happened in this episode would have happened if Hyakkimaru hadn't killed any demons. That kind of blunts the emotional impact, to me. That kind of blunts any perceived anti-samurai sentiment, because the samurai wouldn't have moved, wouldn't have had a reason to move, if Hyakkimaru recovering himself hadn't directly caused the war that's happening. clears throat IN THE ORIGINAL the punchline was that even though Daigo sold his son to demons for control of all Japan, he didn't get that, he was just some backwater commander at war with some other backwater commander and the people he ruled over were screwed over for it. That's way more compelling to me, and way more reflective of the reality of why people go to war and what happens to the people caught in between in the modern era to me, than any of this forced tragic shonen arc crap. the theme of the land deteriorating is something that's been building in the background, hyakkimaru hasn't been directly confronted with the effects of his quest yet (i don't think he's aware at all that his demon killing is causing disaster to unfold again, certainly not that the current conflict he got wrapped up in happened because of him), so i'd say to wait and see how this plays out before already deciding you don't like it. personally, i think it's a pretty interesting angle to take! hyakkimaru has had a lot of sympathy built up for him by the narrative, and it's been a major theme that his father's act has removed his capacity to properly communicate with the people around him. i don't think the show is trying to pull some kind of "but should he just let the demons keep his organs?????" deal, but rather it's taking a closer look at the character of a person who had everything robbed from him at birth for his father's profit.
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Feb 12, 2019 09:11
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ninjewtsu posted:why do you keep posting 4-6 times in a row my man I can post more, if you want me to. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 12, 2019 16:06
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Crabtree posted:So its dumb in a series about demons that steal a baby's body parts to basically have one swap pieces with Hyakkimaru? ninjewtsu posted:the theme of the land deteriorating is something that's been building in the background, hyakkimaru hasn't been directly confronted with the effects of his quest yet (i don't think he's aware at all that his demon killing is causing disaster to unfold again, certainly not that the current conflict he got wrapped up in happened because of him), so i'd say to wait and see how this plays out before already deciding you don't like it. personally, i think it's a pretty interesting angle to take! hyakkimaru has had a lot of sympathy built up for him by the narrative, and it's been a major theme that his father's act has removed his capacity to properly communicate with the people around him. i don't think the show is trying to pull some kind of "but should he just let the demons keep his organs?????" deal, but rather it's taking a closer look at the character of a person who had everything robbed from him at birth for his father's profit. I think the reason I dislike the Daigo aspect in this because my conception of what Dororo is, is that although it is filled with misery and violence it isn't a tragic show. The original was a call for revolution which was a really bold and shocking thing for a 50 year old show to do. This adaptation is playing out like any other drama, in my eyes. I still wouldn't really say it has teeth. The way it expands stuff like Jukai and Miko and Tahomaru is good, but I wish they weren't truncating the stories that were already great to do it. To me, Dororo is righteous anger, hosed up monsters, and brooding atmosphere and this has fallen short on all of that. I hope you'll forgive me for being so cynical of this adaptation when from my point of view it's working at cross purposes with the source material.
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Feb 12, 2019 16:27
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The good news is that there's only one more story they're for sure going to adapt and then you won't have to see me post about The Original ever again, because I feel pretty certain this adaptation is going to do it's own thing from there.
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Feb 12, 2019 16:37
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I think a lot of your issues is that from the start its been doing its own thing and that just heavily embitters you against the show and whatever merit it might have. Like on one case you were complaining that the show went over explaining the spirit sight too much and how it cheapens the plot without looking at the potential that Hyaki regaining his senses would be actively detrimental to his mission. Which surprise surprise, is the direction the show took. And then the show doesn't really explain to you what happens with the leg and voice, but it can be easily inferred and you complain that it doesn't make sense. Having Hyaki's first use of his voice to scream out in pain was pretty good, having him be pretty quiet even after getting his voice because he's never depended on it and because it bothers him, till he screams out in blind anger at Mio's death is also good. Her not being able to hear his voice, his first words being her name is a tragedy. I haven't read/seen the original, but I'm having a hard time imagining they could have been done better from a story telling perspective given that Hyaki was supposed to telepathically beam his thoughts to people. Your other complain about the samurai and capitalism or whatever might hold more merit, but again this is a 24 episode series. Its laying the groundwork for both of these issues, just differently. Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Feb 12, 2019 |
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Feb 12, 2019 17:04
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I don’t have a lot to add to Cao Ni Ma’s post besides  and that I feel like the show is very adeptly laying the groundwork for some major tragedy just around the corner. I can’t remember a show in recent memory where I can basically tell where it’s going beat for beat, but I’m anticipating it with both eagerness and dread because I know just how gut wrenching it’s going to be. Show good.
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Feb 12, 2019 17:13
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I think a lot of your issues is that from the start its been doing its own thing and that just heavily embitters you against the show and whatever merit it might have. My complaint isn't that the show is doing it's own thing and that's bad, it's that it's own thing is boring. I still think the demon sight and the leg are still stupid? I don't think there's any gotcha there. If anything his leg returning this episode works against him regaining his body as a detriment, if it really wanted to go all in on that he would have lost his leg permanently this time. The fact he got it back means his losing the leg was just meant to be a wicked cliffhanger and nothing more. It walked back on a dramatic raising of the stakes that I was legitimately impressed by last week, which is pretty disappointing!
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Feb 12, 2019 17:13
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GorfZaplen posted:My complaint isn't that the show is doing it's own thing and that's bad, it's that it's own thing is boring. I dont agree, Hyaki is an interesting character and the way he's developing is good and novel even if its easy to predict the short term. For all the complaints of telling and not showing, a lot of the gut punches in the last episodes were all shown with no character pointing out what happened. Mio breaking down in tears as she laid dying trying to sing hits you a lot harder when you remember that she sings so that she wouldn't cry. Like you could tell she was going to die the moment she showed up but not that it would be this painful. Likewise Hyaki's reaction. And yeah I thought the leg coming back up might be a little cheap, except you know the entire point that Hyaki is a much stronger murder machine as a semi emotionless robot than as a human. It might also lull viewers into a false sense of security because while Hyaki has plot armor against demons, it doesn't necessarily apply to people.
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Feb 12, 2019 17:50
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I dont agree, Hyaki is an interesting character and the way he's developing is good and novel even if its easy to predict the short term. For all the complaints of telling and not showing, a lot of the gut punches in the last episodes were all shown with no character pointing out what happened. Mio breaking down in tears as she laid dying trying to sing hits you a lot harder when you remember that she sings so that she wouldn't cry. Like you could tell she was going to die the moment she showed up but not that it would be this painful. Likewise Hyaki's reaction. I think the Mio stuff was well executed, I'm not really arguing that. You're right that it's a lot more fleshed out than the original, where she's a character for all of 12 minutes. I also really enjoyed the twist of Hyakkimaru losing his leg because it let him display his resourcefulness and will to survive when he just sat down and silently began carving a new sword leg. That was really badass! I kind of feel like his recovering the limb muddles the theme of the emotionless robot man, there'd be a lot to explore in how easily he adapted to having a prosthetic again. A lot of people have pointed out how Hyakkimaru's character arc and especially the arc of these episodes was predictable, and part of that is that in the original everything that's happened so far was the status quo at the beginning of the story. I'm glad they did flesh it out because it was impactful, and so was the Jukai ep, but it's an area of focus that this story maybe wasn't meant to support. It must seem like I have it in for this show, but when it fleshes things out and does novel twists I really do like it, it's just that it's been doing it at the expense of the things that makes Dororo worth adapting to begin with. I can probably temper my criticism a bit so the thread doesn't become the weekly Hostile Gorf thread, so I'll try to cut down on the angry posting from now on.
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Feb 12, 2019 18:10
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GorfZaplen posted:I hope you'll forgive me for being so cynical of this adaptation when from my point of view it's working at cross purposes with the source material.
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Feb 12, 2019 18:18
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Gorf and Davincie both read the manga and watched the '69 anime? I think I remember it was last year, as an anticipation of sorts for this new hotness series.
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Feb 12, 2019 19:03
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Can Of Worms posted:It sounds like the majority of your complaints are stemming from the assumption that the source material for this anime is the older anime, but the source material is actually the manga. She's only in the manga for five pages. I was trying to be generous!
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Feb 12, 2019 19:09
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I like the show but stuff like the part where hyakkimaru's quest was explained twice in the spam of 3 minutes, when the viewer had already easily inferred hyakkimaru's motives long before the first explanation, is mostly only defensible from a "it's dumb but not really a big deal" angle imo. Similarly, I don't super care that dororo is completely superfluous 70% of the time, but it is correct that dororo has a really minor role in the show named after him, to the point of "why wasn't the kid just cut out entirely" could be a reasonable avenue of discussion. (It's because the show is named after him, but you know, besides that)
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Feb 12, 2019 20:43
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I don't really mind them toning down Dororo being a little poo poo obsessed with stealing swords and more obsessed about Hyakki possibly because Dororo's latched onto the weird doll man being family after talking about how Doro's mom and dad tragically died. Also I'm not sure how someone that's read the manga and seen past incarnations of this show expected any sort of surprise from a 50 year old franchise remake?
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Feb 13, 2019 05:35
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Crabtree posted:I don't really mind them toning down Dororo being a little poo poo obsessed with stealing swords and more obsessed about Hyakki possibly because Dororo's latched onto the weird doll man being family after talking about how Doro's mom and dad tragically died. Also I'm not sure how someone that's read the manga and seen past incarnations of this show expected any sort of surprise from a 50 year old franchise remake?
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Feb 13, 2019 06:25
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Is there a term for this? De-colonial? No, that's not the right word. There's a strong message in this show, how we should not lionize the heroes of the Sengoku era, how they were nothing but blood and misery, how the bushi were nothing more than brutes and warlords, but I don't know how best to describe this anime.
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Feb 13, 2019 12:49
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Its also kind of funny how this Hyakki has his own version of "Those who live outside of Society are either a beast or god." And its so easy for that beast in a cave to be a monster, especially when Samurai are shitheads.
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Feb 13, 2019 13:55
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Phobophilia posted:Is there a term for this? De-colonial? No, that's not the right word. There's a strong message in this show, how we should not lionize the heroes of the Sengoku era, how they were nothing but blood and misery, how the bushi were nothing more than brutes and warlords, but I don't know how best to describe this anime. You might be looking for deglorify/demythify.
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Feb 13, 2019 14:08
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i dont think its too healthy to be invested in a manga tezuka didnt care enough to finish, and an original anime that was super inconsistent in tone (from what ive heard)
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Feb 13, 2019 21:39
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Relin posted:i dont think its too healthy to be invested in a manga tezuka didnt care enough to finish, and an original anime that was super inconsistent in tone (from what ive heard) I mean, it's pretty obvious that people can get invested in Dororo, or else they wouldn't have bothered to remake it 50 years after it came out. It's a thematically dense creature feature that's about someone literally recovering themselves from an act of trauma they had no power to stop, about how men with power will victimize those weaker than them for no reason than they can, a work that demythologizes samurai and the Sengoku period and places the story in the hands of the civilians that suffered through it, so yeah, I'd say it's a work with a lot of resonance even if it tapers off halfway through the manga or a third through the show. I'll even go to bat for the original show: even though it reconfigures itself into a demon hunting black comedy, it's better at doing that then whatever the hell it was doing in the later stages of the 1:1 adaptation of the manga. I'd even say that some of those later episodes are even scarier and more brutal than any of the Tezuka stuff! I've said this before but one of the reasons I was excited for this show was that they could probably do a better job at some of those later manga stories than Tezuka managed, especially with the new show's preference for fast paced storytelling and expansions on the human element. We're already halfway through the manga content and only a fourth of the way through the show: they're obviously going to try to do something new, unless god forbid they decide to do a twelve part epic adaptation of the Fair Fudo arc.
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Feb 14, 2019 03:20
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You're right though, it's not healthy be invested in things, and extremely healthy to maintain a cynical detachment to everything you enjoy.
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Feb 14, 2019 03:22
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Relin posted:i dont think its too healthy to be invested in a manga tezuka didnt care enough to finish, and an original anime that was super inconsistent in tone (from what ive heard) Also a video game.
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Feb 14, 2019 07:38
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GorfZaplen posted:You're right though, it's not healthy be invested in things, and extremely healthy to maintain a cynical detachment to everything you enjoy.
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Feb 15, 2019 00:36
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GorfZaplen posted:The biggest issue is the way they've tied Hyakkimaru's journey of recovery to the decline of the land itself. Nothing that happened in this episode would have happened if Hyakkimaru hadn't killed any demons. Which is all to say I will be very disappointed if this series doesn't end with a Communist China scale killing of landholders.
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Feb 16, 2019 16:44
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Terrible Opinions posted:This right here is something I have to fundamentally disagree with. The story presented here is that making the quite explicit argument that any progress or prosperity that requires someone's exploitation does not have the right to exist and should be torn down. The supernatural story about a land being built by demons breaking a child's body is the same as how feudalism built a country by breaking the bodies of the peasants. Hence all of the peasants we run into who have literally broken bodies. This series is positing that any destruction caused by revolution or rebellion by the oppressed is fully justified because what is being destroyed has no reason to exist. That's fair. I hadn't thought about it like that.
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Feb 16, 2019 17:48
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Thinking about it, I'm a little hesitant to accept that read because so far the show has down played or outright cut those themes in the process of adaptation. Why neuter those themes on the small scale if you're going to elaborate on them in the long term? We'll have to see how it plays out in the end, perhaps it was an attempt to be more subtle in theming that went a little too far, but my read on the show is that it's less concerned with class themes than it is with giving a voice to the civilians of the era.
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Feb 16, 2019 18:40
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You dont need to start right out of the gate by saying gently caress THE SAMURAI, gently caress FEUDALISM, gently caress MACRO LEVEL FEUDALISM (IMPERIALISM), gently caress CAPITALISM TOO! There's really no point when Hyaki is in the state he was at the start of the series. Its building up to it, as Hyaki gains more of his senses he can see the plight around him instead of just his own. I'm sure that the intent is to follow through with the core of the message, specially when the story transitions to Dororo's and the inevitable confrontation with the lord. But its not even subtle, we have the lords wife, that the show has always portrayed as good and a victim as well, outright tell him that he, her and the entire domain could just crumble one day. That the sacrifices aren't worth it. That there is no point in war. I dont see how this could be interpreted as anything but anti feudal/imperialist.
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Feb 16, 2019 19:50
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Even if they go through with it they still made two or three monumentally boring episodes of anime in the attempt. We'll have to wait and see what happens.
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Feb 16, 2019 19:56
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Eh. The only episode I wasn't super into was the village run by a demon one
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Feb 16, 2019 21:04
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Terrible Opinions posted:This right here is something I have to fundamentally disagree with. The story presented here is that making the quite explicit argument that any progress or prosperity that requires someone's exploitation does not have the right to exist and should be torn down. The supernatural story about a land being built by demons breaking a child's body is the same as how feudalism built a country by breaking the bodies of the peasants. Hence all of the peasants we run into who have literally broken bodies. This series is positing that any destruction caused by revolution or rebellion by the oppressed is fully justified because what is being destroyed has no reason to exist. Pretty much my reading as well, considering the demons didn't just take a one-off payment in exchange for boons of prosperity, but constantly tax the peasants for blood and meat.
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Feb 16, 2019 21:53
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GorfZaplen posted:Even if they go through with it they still made two or three monumentally boring episodes of anime in the attempt. We'll have to wait and see what happens. However at this point it's being as blatant as it can with the fairly simple message "feudalism bad" it can be given the tone it has set out.
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Feb 16, 2019 23:34
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Wonder if Tahōmaru loses his eye to Hyakki before or after they know they're related. They're setting him up as someone that's never known defeat that Hyakki is gonna give it to him bad, but I'm curious how their relationship starts off. Do they fight before he's invited and possibly bribed by his father to stop? Is what triggers their hatred is Taho losing one of his buddies to Hyakki? Does he see mother just melt for Hyakkimaru that drives little bro into a blind rage?
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Feb 17, 2019 04:39
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That was a cute episode, I feel like it works better big picture than in the smaller narrative stuff, I think if you pick at the storytelling it would probably come apart. Demon is still based on an animal but it has a personality which I'm glad for
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Feb 18, 2019 17:30
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