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Sugar Gliders I helldumped my gliders and was encouraged to start a sugar glider thread with stories and pictures. Sugar gliders are nocturnal arboreal marsupials that come from Australia, New Guinea, and Indonesia. Their behavior and attributes are similar to that of a flying squirrel but they are not related. They form colonies (usually up to about seven gliders) and engage in social grooming, sleep together to conserve heat and scent mark each other to establish who belongs. They are marsupials so baby joeys do go into their mother's pouch when first born. When they grow the entire colony takes care of the young and, unlike many species, the males assist in taking care of the young. In summer their main food source in the wild is insects and in the winter they primarily feed on tree saps and gums. There was a spike in popularity for them as pets several decades ago in the United States and breeding stock was acquired. There is concern about ill-treatment of gliders and their suitability as pets and I agree that most people should not have sugar gliders as pets. Their diet has to be more exact then most pets to keep them in good health, they require a lot of room, and generally gliders should not be kept alone and you should have at least two. They also need to bond with their owners and come to see them as a part of the colony and/or a friendly moving tree or they are hard to interact with. They are also skittish (in nature they are more often prey then predator) and nocturnal so it is hard for many people to spend much time with them. It took me several weeks to get them to play with me and then I had to almost start over when the girls arrived. They still bite occasionally when they are startled or when they hope my finger will yield sap and one of my girls just loves to chew things. All that being said, I now have four of them. If you are considering getting some gliders I would read up on them a lot. They live a long time (around 10 years in captivity) and their needs can be time consuming. It can be worth it but make sure you are ready for the commitment. Never impulse buy a glider! Generally you should not impulse buy any pet but I think gliders fall under this heading especially. Anyways, enough boring stuff. I will start with some baby pictures:  One of my original gliders, this is Dobby. He has a classic sugar glider coloring. He is much bigger now and is the most aloof of the gliders. The strong silent type. He is not unfriendly, he just prefers to do his own thing a lot of the time though he does sometimes crawl on me during play time with the others. I think he is currently dominant in the colony and has had some face offs over it but has not fought anyone since I integrated the colony together.  This is Elric. He is Dobby's brother from the same litter. He is a cremeino and he grew into those ears. He is the most playful of the gliders. He was the first I trained to jump to my arm and almost any time I hold my arm out he hops on and runs up to my shoulder. He is also the only glider that crawls under my shirt and explores. He has a bit of a daring streak but he is mellowing a little which is good because some of the jumps he was trying to make scared me. He is also the laziest at waking up and all three of the others usually get up before him. He also has the bad habit of barking in the middle of the night when the others are taking a nap because he is lonely. I made the mistake of giving him treats at 3 am and encouraged him. I am working on breaking that habit. My avatar is the first time I saw him when I brought him home.  This is Arwen, the first of my pair of sisters from a litter. Neither are related to the boys. She has mosaic coloring with a dark body and a spot on her head. She looked a little derpy as a baby but she has grown up to be the fiercest and the most daring. Part of me thinks I should have named her Artemis because she is the defender of the colony and is willing to hunt. She will climb to the top of their cage (about 6' high) and jump off to the floor and climb up and do it again. She likes to chew things and nine times out of ten when I get bit it is her. She especially likes trying to rip up the seams on jeans and sweats when we play. I am pretty sure she is not hostile to me and just likes to bite looking for sap. We are working on it.  Here is her sister Eilonwy (you have probably figured out my naming convention by now). She is a pure white glider. A disadvantage in the wild. She is also the most shy and most skittish. I worry it was because she had some trauma in the first week she was with me but she seems to be coming out of her shell more. Tonight was the first time she was the first one to come out for playtime and we had some bonding time. She is the favorite of most of the visitors I have let play with them because she tends to just climb on your shirt and sit there making her easy to pet. She is getting more and more active though which I am very glad to see. She is also the protector of their pouch and is the glider most likely to crab when she hears a strange noise or knows something is nearby but cannot see them. She is getting more tolerant of me at least and I always say something when I come into their room so she knows it is me. And here is the whole colony a few days ago when they were all in a sleeping pouch right before I put my hand in hoping they would snuggle up to my hand as one of the colony without biting. Arwen bit once but that was it. Then they curled up with my hand and made their contented clicking sound. It was so cute. I try to do it a couple of times a week now. Just get in my bed and read or sit at the computer and have one hand with them.  So my plan is to tell stories, share photos, and answer any questions anyone has about gliders. The stories will include my first few weeks, some mistakes, my attempts at introducing my two pairs (my failures and eventual success) and lots of  moments. If anyone else has gliders or pictures or thoughts on them feel free to chime in.I will start with a simple story of playtime tonight because it is fresh on my mind and I do not have a lot of time to Tent Time One of the best ways to bond with gliders is in a tent they can crawl around on the inside of. I have a mosquito net tent. When I want to do tent time I usually start just as the sun is going down. I grab their sleeping pouch or house and take it into the tent. Sometimes I bring in some toys. Tonight I did not because I figured they needed more exercise time. When I got home from work I gave the two gliders who stuck their head out to greet me yogurt drops. Then I shook out their cage lining and got their food and water bowls. I went downstairs and watched Netflix while I mixed a new batch of food, got some salad, cleaned and refreshed water bowls, and took them upstairs. Then I grabbed their house and put it in the middle of the tent and played on my phone until they started to get up. The glider room has red lights so I can see but they treat it as if it is dark. I am not sure if they cannot see red or if it just does not bother them. I tried blue light once and they seemed to hate it and went nuts. Anyways the first one to pop her head out was Eilonwy.  She is in their hanging house I sometimes use. They seem to like it. I put a pillow and a couple of blankets in it and they curl up in the back. This house could probably hold 8 gliders. It looks small in the photos but it is pretty big for them. I usually put this in the cage if I am not going to be able to put my hand in to snuggle with them for a few days because it is hard for me to do that with this house. I always make sure they have extra pouches as every so often they want privacy or to split up two and two but they usually all sleep together. They favor the house when they can get it. I am not putting it back in afterwards because it stinks and needs to be washed. I was happy Eilonwy came out first. She is usually in the middle of the pack and we rarely spend time alone. I feed her a yogurt drop and she poops and pees and then starts climbing on me. I was laying down and she snuggled up in my leg and started cleaning my clothing. It was sweet.  Then her sister Arwen and Dobby got interested.  I fed both a drop. Dobby took his back into the pouch and Arwen came out to play and that got Eilonwy running and climbing. Eilonwy stretched and you can see why they are confused with flying squirrels.  They don't use their "wings" very often unless they are jumping and their use is quick unless it is a long jump so it is hard to see. The best shots of them come when they are stretching while climbing. She is hanging on the side of the mosquito netting which you probably cannot see. Dobby and Elric eventually came out and they started running around the tent and climbing and jumping. All four now generally trust me so I often extend my arm to them while they are on the tent and they will often (but not always) climb onto my hand and run down my arm. Elric is the most eager to do this with Arwen next then Dobby and finally Eilonwy. Dobby tends to strut when he is running down my arm, Elric races, and Arwen often just jumps onto my neck or shoulder directly. Eilonwy usually just races to my back and parks for a while. They will also jump onto me and off of me to and from the netting. Elric does not do this so super often but tonight I was lucky  Once he does it once he tries to do it for the rest of the night and is always looking for an opening to climb in. Luckily his nails aren't too sharp. It can pinch a bit when they are. He climbed in one shirt sleeve and then crawled across my back and poked his head out the other. When I am done for the evening the hard part starts. Getting them back into the cage. I got three of them on me and tried to entice them back with the smell of their dinner. Only Dobby took the bait and I closed the cage door and got the last one crawling on me and went with my backup plan. I went into the closet and shut the door and turned on the light.  When the light is on they look for cover. I took a large pouch (one they used for delivery of the boys) and held it open. They were slow to get in tonight but once Arwen went in and showed it was safe the other two jumped in. Then I covered the gap so they could not get out and put the pouch on the floor of the cage and fortunately Dobby was up top eating salad or he might have tried to make a break for it. Then I shut off the closet light and they all crawled out and some started eating and some went for the exercise wheels. A good evening. Xenocides fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Apr 18, 2019 |
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Apr 18, 2019 04:23
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Hi yes I would like 1 pet flying bushbaby squirrel plz tia
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Apr 18, 2019 05:09
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I. M. Gei posted:Hi yes I would like 1 pet flying bushbaby squirrel plz tia I agonized forever over the thread name and hated what I came up with and then this shows up. Mods, if you could rename the thread Sugar Gliders: Pet Flying Bushbaby Squirrels I will chip in a donation for Lowtax’s spine.
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Apr 18, 2019 05:19
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I had a girlfriend that begged me for sugar gliders and I refused because I knew she wasn't responsible enough to care for them. Reading this thread reinforces that I made the right choice because man, she could barely care for a cat. All that to say I really admire your pet ownership skills because you clearly care a whole lot for these animals and I can't wait to see more.
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Apr 18, 2019 13:55
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Yeah, your gliders are gorgeous, and the love just shines through. I can't wait to see more of them!
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Apr 19, 2019 01:40
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Bonding My plan is to go over a bunch of topics related to gliders while sharing specific stories about mine. The first thing to understand about gliders is that they are NOT fully domesticated animals. They have not been kept by humans long enough. In their default wild state they rationally fear humans (and almost everything else). They are near the bottom of the food chain in their natural environment and are often scared and can react with violence, avoidance, or annoyance when startled and in the beginning they are very easy to startle. Even when they are bonded they sometimes react instinctively against people they have bonded with. I got bit today because I scared Elric. Once he knew it was me he stopped. I did a lot of research before my first two boys arrived and there is a lot of contradictory data out there about how to bond with a glider. I watched about 14 videos before I realized all the info I got was questionable at best from a shill for a breeding mill. I found a good forum with people I trusted to get good info from and read old and current threads there and probably read too much as I took firm stances on controversies that were over five years old. I had a bit of a free step up in bonding because I got mine from a good breeder. Both Dobby and Elric (my first two) were socialized to be around people before I got them. That helps immensely. Gliders that have gone more 'feral' from bad or inattentive owners or that have been kicked from home to home with no stability usually take a lot more time to form a bond with their owner because they have been in an environment with a lot of stress and sustained stress really messes with gliders behaviorally and even healthwise. I am told all gliders can be bonded but with hard cases it can take six months. I fortunately did not face that. Step One: Leave them Alone My gliders had an hour long flight to arrive. I had to go to four separate cargo depots at the airport before I found the one the gliders were actually at (the breeder gave me the wrong pickup address because it had recently changed, I passed that on to them so they would hopefully not make the mistake again). So there I was with a plastic case sealed with zip ties. A little nervous I took the gliders out to my car and made sure the case was secure and started driving home. I talked to them while I drove home but I think I was more trying to keep myself at ease then them. One of them (probably Dobby) started crabbing on the way home when he heard a horn honk. Crabbing is an intimidating sound gliders make to scare things off and it can be very frightening if you are not used to it. I don't have video of my guys crabbing but here is a generic video of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nP_hQWT8YY It is pretty loud and made me jump. I decided to stop talking to them and just took them home. I went upstairs and looked over the cage to make sure everything was right, put some food out (blueberries as a special welcome home treat and yogurt drops in little foraging treasure chests for them to try to get out), put a shirt I had worn while working out on top of the cage so they would get used to my scent, put blankets in the sleeping pouch I had for them, and got a knife and started cutting the zip ties. Inside was a big zipper pouch with newspapers as padding all around to cushion the pouch with documents about their age and heritage and a few toys and treats they threw in nestled inside. I carefully put the pouch in the cage and unzipped it and then shut the door and watched. Elric wandered to the zipper and peeked out and gave me the picture that I use as my avatar. Here is the bigger version:  It was sweet but he was very timid. I tried to sit perfectly still and he went over and ate a pair of blueberries and drank some water and then went back into his pouch. Dobby stayed in the pouch. I was actually pretty lucky. It is rare they come out during the day. Both stayed inside after that until it got dark. The instructions I got were to leave them alone for two or three days and I definitely endorse this advice. You can talk to them and be near the cage and even feed through the bars but do not take them out or put your hand in. This gives them time to acclimate without too much stress before you start working them into your life. So I left them alone. I also dealt with an irrational fear that Dobby had not survived the flight because I had not seen him yet. He was fine. When evening came I found them having fun with the foraging toys struggling to open them and fighting over who would get the yogurt drop.  Hard to see but they dropped it. I gave it back to them. That kind of wrestling over food is not hostile. Gliders will sometimes try to grab food out of each others paws and mouth and it does not start a conflict. They were nervous of me the first night. When I started talking they ignored me while they were eating but went and hid once they were no longer distracted. I just hung around and eventually they started playing on their wheel and exploring and marking the cage. After the first night I took out the pouch they came in and started adding more toys to the cage. I had a bit of a scare when I got the pouch out. I knew they put fruit and something they could lick for moisture in there in case the flight was delayed but I did not know they put meal worms in there. I put my hand in to get the stuff out and suddenly felt crawlies all over and dropped the pouch and lots of worms started crawling out. Fun. I cleaned out the pouch and still use it occasionally to help get gliders back into the cage when playtime is over. I did not see any mealworms they had tried to eat. I believe they were not old enough to want them yet but they did chew a bit on the orange inside. I went really video happy on day two so have some images and thumbnailed gifs which is probably what you most want anyways. It took Dobby and Elric both a while to figure out the kitchen. I use these enclosed kitchens for their solid staple foods because gliders are very messy eaters and this keeps some of the mess contained. For liquid and water they are fine just having it in the open. They look small but two gliders can fit inside. Sometimes they just duck in and grab something and carry it out (and make a mess) and sometimes they go in all the way and eat. Gliders are very clean themselves and groom themselves and each other all the time but they have terrible table manners.  Elric climbed all over before he could figure out how to get in.  He did figure it out:  Then there were the foraging cups with more yogurt drops. They struggled but eventually figured them out.  Step Two: Get them used to You After a few days I started working on getting them to trust me. I started with feeding through bars and then worked up to putting my hand in. Sometimes they would crab or retreat and I just slowed down and tried to go slower. I had to split this into two gifs but it was the first time Dobby did more then grab food from me that I pushed through the bars.   Step 3: A Lot of Scent while they Sleep I kept that up and started putting them in a bonding pouches (a zippered pouch with a mesh screen on one side) and carried them around while they were sleeping. You put the mesh side facing you so they can smell you through it thought I would sometimes turn it when they wanted to look around. I would do this when I got home from work or most of the day on a Saturday or Sunday. At first they were irritable and Dobby would crab over a lot of things like sounds or just generally. Elric would join in and I am still not sure if he was crabbing in solidarity or annoyed that Dobby kept waking him up. I could usually deal with crabbing by feeding them fruit or yogurt drops. Dobby would crab until I got it near his nose then he would grab it and was distracted and would stop. I tried taking them out of the house with me one day but they crabbed a lot more. I am more comfortable doing it now but then it was still too much of a shock. Step 4: Tent Time Then I started playing with them in a tent (badly constructed for them as I quickly found out) and having them start climbing on me. I used a tend I already had which was not well designed for gliders. They could not climb it except for the mesh windows and Elric had the bad habit of jumping to the mesh or grabbing some fabric in the corner in a jump and getting stuck so I watched him. Tent time put you 'in the cage' with them so they get used to you. They almost have to crawl on you and mine quickly started using me as a tree to climb on. Elric especially took to climbing on me and Dobby picked it up a little later and we expanded it to outside the tent:  Bonding never entirely ends and I still do all this stuff with the gliders. It was about at this point that I decided that I was ready to get the girls I wanted. I had my eyes on them and the sale I got the boys on was still on but would run out shortly so I had to act fast. This is also where I hit my lowest point in glider ownership because I made quite a few mistakes in introducing the girls to the boys. So next time I will start with the girls arriving and my attempts to introduce them to each other to form a colony. So, get ready for some failures but it does have a happy ending. _____________________________________________________________________________ Bonus And some bonus pics from today. I got home and wanted to read some of the Mueller report so I figured I would put my hand in the sleeping pouch while I did. I accidentally scared Elric when I put my hand in and he bit me (not hard luckily) but then realized it was me and went back to sleep. Arwen woke up too and she decided my hand was filthy and licked and nipped it clean before going back to sleep. Always good to feel like one of the colony. Dobby was adorably curled up and I nestled my fingers around him and he lightly grabbed on with his claws. Very cute.  And here is the whole colony:  I kept my hand in for about an hour. When gliders are content (especially when asleep) they make a little clicking sound. They made it a lot when I gave them belly rubs and pets which always feels good.
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Apr 19, 2019 03:57
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In jr high/high school I was on several sports teams with a kid whose mother had a large number of various animals, but was particularly fond of her sugar gliders. They were so well behaved that they were even able to come to a classroom and crawl around on the lady for a bit without spooking/crabbing as its apparently called. They are super adorable animals, but a hell of commitment. You are a good sugar momma. 
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Apr 19, 2019 05:59
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Oh man, these guys sound like a lot - and I mean a lot - of work, but worth it, if you have the temperament. I definitely don't, so I will continue to live vicariously through you and your adorable pictures. Did you ever get a better tent for them?
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Apr 19, 2019 11:19
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StrixNebulosa posted:Oh man, these guys sound like a lot - and I mean a lot - of work, but worth it, if you have the temperament. I definitely don't, so I will continue to live vicariously through you and your adorable pictures. Did you ever get a better tent for them? I don’t want to overstate the commitment. I probably spend 15 minutes a day on basic cleanup and food prep and another 30-60 playing with them. Sometimes play is while they are sleeping in the day. Sometimes I take them in the tent (I did get a good tent). Sometimes I just open the cage door and lay down on the floor and read or play on my tablet and they run around the room and I will feed them when they come to me and climb on me. Elmnt80 posted:In jr high/high school I was on several sports teams with a kid whose mother had a large number of various animals, but was particularly fond of her sugar gliders. They were so well behaved that they were even able to come to a classroom and crawl around on the lady for a bit without spooking/crabbing as its apparently called. They are super adorable animals, but a hell of commitment. You are a good sugar momma. Sugar daddy.  I almost got the shirt to that effect but even with the picture of a sugar glider on it I thought it might be a little creepy.I am working on getting my gliders to that point. My brother and niece, my parents, and my friend and his gf have all come over to play with them and they are pretty well behaved. I think I could trust Elric to stay on me and crawl around if the lights are on though he might just freeze or (more likely) crawl into my shirt. Some women have trained their gliders to sleep in or on their bra and carry them all day. It does not work as well for guys with no natural spot with support to sleep on and they would have to cling on through the day and I would not trust Arwen to sleep in my underwear with her penchant for random chewing.
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Apr 19, 2019 15:27
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I seem to remember the kid walking around with a sugar glider head poking out of his front hoodie pocket. Granted this was in like 2001-2002 so my memory might be a tad off. Either way, keep being awesome. Also, in a group that knew about it, the sugar daddy shirt would be awesome. I say get it anyways. 
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Apr 19, 2019 16:26
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At the time I was always super annoyed by nighttime barking and such, but this makes me really miss my gliders now  I only had two, rescued from a former friend who was not taking care of them at all. Just the change in diet from lovely pellets to proper balanced nutrition made a world of difference in their coat color and energy level. A big rear end flight cage helped too. I lost Sandor very suddenly and i knew these guys shouldn't be solo, so i adopted his brother Gregor (the mountain that glides) to someone in Orlando with a pretty big colony and he is so happy there. Maybe once we move and get a house and have the space I'd consider getting some more, but this time get them young and get lots of them!
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Apr 19, 2019 19:54
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BaronVonVaderham posted:At the time I was always super annoyed by nighttime barking and such, but this makes me really miss my gliders now You are a good sugar daddy.  I have seen gliders on the pellet diets and yeah, it is night and day. The barking is not too bad but I have them in one of the spare bedrooms so it only wakes me when it is extended barking and it is almost always Elric. I made the mistake of giving him treats when he barked to distract him and now he is learning that I am not going to keep rewarding bad behavior.
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Apr 19, 2019 20:38
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Apparently I still had some images of my two boys in imgur (I have more at home, I'm away for a work trip though). Side note: I think you might have the same cage I did!    This is what they looked like the day I got them   They were BROWN! And their home was a tiny travel cage. Such a difference just from a diet change. What do you feed your colony for their staple diet? I had them on a diet from Critter Love (used to be called HPW), which I called "glider soup", and mixed in a "glider salad" of various fruits and veggies selected to balance their calcium to phosphorus ratio. You can see how shiny and silvery they got once they were getting actual nutrition Their favorite treat: LIVE MEALWORMS! They loved the dried ones too, I used to hide them in little plastic treasure chests that I hid all over their cage for foraging. Obviously a sometimes food, since they're very high in fat, but they were little murder beasts whenever they got worms.  Gregor moved to his new home in Orlando and I picked the woman I did to adopt him because she knew what she was doing. She has multiple big flight cages, this one had a handy divider so he could be nearby for everyone to smell each other without being able to get at each other. He stayed in his penthouse suite for a couple weeks before making closer introductions.   But integration was very successful. Here's a group shot of his new colony:  He's the one riding OH LAWD HE GLIDIN' on the left.
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Apr 19, 2019 23:09
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Those poor gliders in the before shot. Mine will occasionally yellow a little if I have to skip a deep cage clean for a week but that is like pure brown. I think you did have the same Kongo Cage I do. I actually have two of them due to the initial failed introduction. I like the colorful lining and the ball pit. I had to take the one I had out to put in a second exercise wheel. With four of them one just was not enough. Those are some cute boys. Was one of them not neutered when you got him. Looks like he has a forehead scent gland. Either that or he was so miserable he was ripping out his own fur...... I feed them Critter Love Complete. Possibly what you used, Critter Love has Complete and Plus. Complete is a powder you mix 1 to 3 with water and then freeze and then salads and fruit. I do not feed them meal worms much. Tends to make them smell more but I do give them out occasionally. Mine really love chicken necks and I will feed them those. First time I held it in front of Elric so he would come and then started pulling it away to a good place to eat and he was was having none of that. He immediately jumped on my arm to make sure that chicken did not get away. He looks happy with the new colony. I am wondering how often he rides that tubby glider around.....
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Apr 20, 2019 07:33
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Yup, it was a Kongo Cage! I loved the door latches that locked so securely; Sandor was a little poo poo and figured out how to open the catches on the cheaper cages and they'd break out at night and come find me (or, one time my brother was visiting, jumping on him in the night and scaring the poo poo out of him). Not only messy, but very obviously unsafe for them to be out unsupervised. You're absolutely correct, Sandor wasn't fixed when I got him, well spotted. I did eventually take him in to get neutered because he started to develop some food aggression and that went away. Critter Love Complete! That was exactly what I used, and it's probably the best food out there in my experience. I didn't freeze mine, I actually made really small batches (just a week's worth) and left it in the fridge in a blender bottle. The boys very quickly paired the sound of the bottle being shaken (that metal whisk ball thing makes a very distinctive sound) with the arrival of breakfast, so it was their cue to wake up and climb to the top corner of the cage to see if I was going to grab some worms out of the worm farm for them. I only gave them maybe twice a week, way too much fat. There's no way I'd ever do gliders in an apartment again -- the barking wasn't BAD, but when it happened they were just so close to the bedroom and it woke us up -- but this is really making me miss these guys and want to get some more after we get a house later this year. I'd love a mosaic like Arwen, I just saw the other day that Critter Love recently adopted out a little girl like her
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Apr 20, 2019 18:01
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I think Arwen and Elric have my favorite colorations. Ironic since Eilonwy was the most expensive and I bought her mostly to get Arwen's color and get another girl she was already introduced to. Yeah, mine escape way too often. I have the bad habit of unlatching the door when I need to get something in or out and waiting for an opening when they are elsewhere and then getting distracted and then I leave with the door still unlatched. Happened last night when I was on my PC and suddenly Arwen climbed onto the desk and then wanted to play hide and seek with the speakers and monitors.
Xenocides fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Apr 21, 2019 |
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Apr 21, 2019 20:03
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Introductions Sugar gliders are territorial. While they are deeply social with gliders that are part of their colony they drive off or attack invading gliders. Sometimes gliders can find acceptance in a new colony but it is usually a tense meeting. In the wild gliders have colonies with one (or sometimes two) dominant males and usually a dominant female. They divide up tasks and it is not clear how much of that is genetic and how much is learned. Some will forage, some build nests, some watch the colony joeys (including ones that are not theirs), and some sleep lightly and function as alarms. They all usually do some of each job but they mostly focus on their "duty" if they can. Male young are usually integrated into the colony while females are driven out to join. Presumably this helps with the gene pool. Periodically a usually younger male will start a dominance challenge and the loser is either driven out or (occasionally) killed. Most wild colonies have a challenge about every two years though this varies a lot. In captivity the situation changes. Males are often neutered so their dominance drives are muted. Most breeders only keep a single breeding pair in each cage. A dominance challenge in a confined space is much more deadly because the loser has no real ability to retreat and seek out a new colony and is more likely to be killed. Introductions are therefore a little more dangerous. There are exceptions. Babies will bond with almost any other glider because they are scared and just want a friend. Solitary gliders are usually but not always more amenable to being introduced. Anyways, I was under the mistaken impression that my boys and my two girls were almost certain to get along because they were still young. Introduction Attempt 1 I picked up the girls from the airport and brought them home. Eilonwy (it was probably her) crabbed a little on the drive home but I considered myself a pro at this point. I took the boys out of the cage and put them in a bonding pouch and wore them. Then I cleaned the cage (but not well enough to get all the scent off) and put the girls in. They woke up at nightfall and I gave them some time to eat and mark the cage and then put the boy's bonding pouch in. Eilonwy was exploring and ran up to the pouch with Dobby getting out. Dobby attacked and they balled up but it was fast and EIlonwy ran. Dobby has always been the biggest and they were younger and the boys already had a size advantage. I quickly grabbed Dobby and pulled him out. I got his flight and fight reflexes going as I picked him up a way you generally want to avoid. I grabbed him from above like a predator would and he fought and bit to get out. I don't blame him. I got Dobby into the small carrier enclosure and zipped him in. He was very angry and turned around to find the cage door open and the other three had bolted. Elric and Arwen were facing off on the outside of the back of the cage and one charged the other (not sure which was which) and both fell to the floor. I got to Elric and he was a little terrified and was bonded enough he jumped onto me. I took him to the tent (still the not good one) and put him inside. The girls were understandably terrified of everything at this point and were wondering what kind of hell they had just arrived in. To try to avoid trauma I got a towel and tried to throw it over them. This usually makes a glider freeze and you can scrunch up the towel under them and carry them to the cage. Side benefit is they are unlikely to smell you and associate you with this method. I caught Arwen quickly and got her into the cage but Eilonwy was dodging and weaving and it took me almost fifteen minutes to catch her and get her back in the cage. This was probably my lowest glider owner point. I suffer from sporadic but serious depression and this was driving me into a state of self-hatred and doubt over my abilities to care for these guys. I was able to focus on their needs and I toyed with keeping the guys in the tent but knew that would probably not work well. It was getting late and I rushed out to a pet store to find another temporary cage. The store did not have a large cage suitable for gliders (all the large cages would let them squeeze through the bars with ease so I finally settled on a small cage built for a single rat and I would feel guilty keeping a rat in it but it was the best option. I brought it home and found Dobby stuck hanging from a side of the tent with no way to get down. Guy was terrified and I quickly held out my arm and he crawled down. Then I carried him towards the new small cage but he jumped for the big one thinking it was home and he and the two girls had an with claws going through the bars. I got him off and into the small cage and put Dobby in with him.  Then I went and wallowed a bit over how stupid I was to assume they would just get along and not even having a back up plan. I ordered another cage identical to the old one but knew it would be four or five days before it would arrive. I provided food to both groups and went to sleep hoping it would get better. FAILURE Interlude The girls seemed to do better without attacking gliders though I still worry Eilonwy is still shy and a bit paranoid and Arwen a bit aggressive due to this but cannot be helped. I played with the boys a lot in the next few days just to get them out of that cage. I got Elric pretty well trained at jumping to me. Dobby was willing to climb on me but not much else.  When the new cage arrived I quickly moved the boys into it and they seemed happy. They were stir crazy running around the small cage. Introduction Attempt 2 So I started working on my plans to introduce them again. I read up a lot and started doing things to help. I started swapping sleeping pouches so they would adapt to the scent along with blankets that had my scent. I kept playing with the two groups but had to do them two at a time which meant they were only coming out two or three times a week. I did upgrade my tent to a better mosquito net one so they could play more as well. I also started bonding with Arwen and Eilonwy with bonding pouch and tent time. Arwen started becoming my friend first.  At the recommendation of another glider owner I got a carwash mitt to clean the cage and found that the girls loved to play with it.  The boys took to it too.  Eventually I set a Saturday for intros. I had been swapping pouches and they seemed to be fine. I did it in the morning when they are most tired. I brought the boys into my shower (I have an enclosed one with a door). Then I brought the girls and they backed into different corners and stared. I waited until suddenly Eilonwy bolted over my foot startling me and I turned......and accidentally turned the shower on and Dobby got a lot of water and the others also got some. Glider do not like being wet. I quickly shut it off but everyone was stressed now. I offered a scentless sleeping pouch and everyone wanted in away from the wet and light. The girls went in first and Elric went in too and seemed okay. Dobby crawled in but then I heard noises and a lot of movement. I am not sure if they were upset because he was wet or because he was an invader but Dobby quickly fled. I gave Dobby a pouch to crawl into. Then I took Dobby out and dried him as best I could. I toyed with leaving the trio together. Getting three in one cage would be a start and Dobby being lonely for a while might help curb his aggression but he looked so miserable that I fished Elric out of the other pouch to go back with his brother and help groom him and comfort him. Then I had to dry off. FAILURE Introduction Attempt 3 I kept swapping pouches and started moving the cages closer together. They were wary of each other and the boys seemed almost frantic at times to get to the girls but they did not look hostile so I was unsure if it was a desire to be friends or an attempt at aggression. At one point all four had a facedown for a rumble with three of them crawling along the close sides and facing off. Eilonwy seemed less angry and just followed her sister from a distance a little behind. They were also talking a lot which mostly involves hissing. Dobby crabbed a few times. They were also reaching through the bars for each other. I made sure to put a little more distance so there was no chance of their hands meeting unless I was there. I decided to plan for an intro on March 9th of the girls and Elric and maybe add in Dobby if they seemed chill but otherwise just at least get the trio together. If I could only get the trio leave the cages close so Dobby could see his brother with the girls and hopefully mellow a bit. March 7: I let Arwen out to play and she bolted and jumped onto the boy's cage and ran to the back side. Dobby started crabbing but she and Elric started sniffing and chattering right across the bars. Seemed a good sigh. March 8: Boys had tent time. I put Dobby back in cage and brought Elric to the outside of girl's cage. He and Arwen still seemed friendly but Eilonwy refused to come close. Was hopeful March 9: Woke up on Saturday and took the girls into the bathtub in my guest bathroom and they lazily tried to avoid being evicted from the pouch but finally gave up. Then I went and enticed Dobby out of the pouch with a treat and took the pouch with Elric still in it and put him in.  Eilonwy and Elric met up first and seemed blase about the whole thing and seemed more interested in escaping the tub. Elric and Arwen sniffed each other but seemed fine and were willing to turn their back on each other. Perfection. I let this go on for about five minutes until I was convinced they were comfortable. I then figured I would see if Dobby would be okay joining them. If not I would pull him out and leave the three together. I got Dobby but when I got back Arwen had escaped the tub. I tried to get Dobby to jump off me and head into the tub but Elric took that opportunity to jump onto me (like he always does). With the two boys on me I got Dobby into the tub hoping he and Eilonwy would meet while I possibly scoured the house for Arwen (the door was open when she got out). I found Arwen hiding still in the room behind the towels hanging way off the floor looking like she could not get down. Not sure how she jumped that high. She was terrified hanging on and gladly let me take her. Dobby and Eilonwy made common cause and were friendly but worked together and escaped again. At least I now had the door closed and was sure all were in the bathroom. Made a note to myself: Either this tub is too shallow or my gliders are all the equivalent of pro athletes or the advice about using tubs for intros is useless. I am guessing the first one. With the bedlam I realized the only two who had not been introduced were Dobby and Arwen and they were the two I was most concerned about. Arwen had climbed on me so I put her down by Dobby and they faced off and Dobby crabbed a little but they started sniffing and seemed to get along. I broke out the large fresh sleeping pouch that had just arrived yesterday so it was beautifully scentless. Eilonwy was terrified of the mayhem so I just held it up to her and she gratefully dove in. I let Dobby in next and then Arwen and finally Elric. I carried it to the master bedroom with the small rat cage. Both Dobby and Elric climbed out and back onto me but I turned on the lights and they quickly went back into the cage while I secured the pouch. Dobby dove right into the pouch and there was some crabbing and hissing but no movement so I figured they were okay. Elric explored the cage and kept going in and out of the pouch and I was worried he was going to ruin it disturbing everyone but he finally settled down and joined the others in the pouch. There were a few hisses but it was the conversational kind and the "get your foot out of my face" kind that was not a prelude to a brawl. I watched them for a half hour until I was sure they were asleep together. I then went and thoroughly cleaned the cage I was going to put them all in and sprayed it down with a lemon scented pet safe cleaner to make sure I masked all scent markers. Everything in the cage I washed and I rearranged everything so neither would see it as "home ground". When they woke up I made sure the food was already out to prevent a rush for food aggression. They all started marking up the cage and eating. Elric and Arwen would ride on each other's back a bit and did some play fighting but nothing serious. I think they were figuring out who was dominant between them. I have no idea who won. Aftermath: A few days later Dobby and Arwen somehow freaked each other out. All four were in combat stance with raised tails when I showed up and Dobby and Arwen started circling each other while the other two sat together at the top watching warily. I took Arwen out and she kept it up but spent her time circling the cage. I finally put her back and they continued for a while. They did nothing but stare each other down for hours. I stayed up until 3 AM hoping it would solve itself and then realized I had to go to bed (work in morning). I toyed with separating them into different cages but I went digging and the general consensus on forums about this was to "let gliders be gliders" and work out their dominance issues without intervening unless it looked like someone was going to get hurt so I decided to leave it and hope everyone was okay. When I woke up the next morning they were all in the same pouch sleeping contentedly. I checked everyone over for injuries and everyone was fine. Still no idea if it was an accident or one of them provoked it or what but they have never had any conflict I have seen since. SUCCESS!!!! Bonus Last night was chicken neck night and you can see the previous combatants eating together happily. 
Xenocides fucked around with this message at 21:56 on Apr 21, 2019 |
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Apr 21, 2019 21:54
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The bathtub advice was clearly the best, because gosh look at that gif. A long, arduous journey and I'm so glad it worked out.
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Apr 21, 2019 23:13
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Oh, and if you are judging me for how filthy the bathtub is gliders urinate and defecate right after getting up. A lot of the rest came from dumping out the pouch I brought the girls in. The girls had a bad habit of storing stuff in their pouch. I put eucalyptus leaves and branches in their cages before I finished introductions. Then one day I cleaned it all up and the next day there was a bunch of it in the cage with the boys. I finally figured out the girls stored some of it in their pouch and then I switched up pouches and the boys dragged it all out before going to sleep. I think since the the colony has united they have agreed not to stash random junk in their sleeping pouch anymore. That being said I did give out those chicken necks and I only found two of the bones on the floor and one in the hammock. I am wondering if the other one is in the sleeping pouch just in case someone needed a snack.
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Apr 22, 2019 01:21
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Sugar Glider Gifs Just some fun stuff from tonight: Sugar gliders rub their hindquarters like a dog as the lovely Arwen will now demonstrate:  She also shows off a jump:  And finally Elric after he was done cleaning under my shirt: 
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Apr 24, 2019 03:10
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drat, you guys are really making me want to adopt some gliders, myself. Problem is though, I'm not sure how well they'd go with my greyhound, so I don't really want to risk it! (I mean, he doesn't try and hunt/kill rabbits or cats or anything, but well...anything unfamiliar that's rapidly moving away from him gets his attention, and makes him want to chase/play with it...which isn't good, seeing as he's a giant dog who isn't very careful in general) I'm also not sure about their availability here in Australia...I don't think I've ever seen anyone have them, before. So I think at this stage, I'll need to continue living through your posts/photos 
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Apr 24, 2019 05:52
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Major Isoor posted:I'm also not sure about their availability here in Australia...I don't think I've ever seen anyone have them, before. So I think at this stage, I'll need to continue living through your posts/photos I have absolutely no clue, but since they're from there originally, I'd think they'd be easier to find than here on the other side of the planet. I could be horribly wrong.
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Apr 24, 2019 16:02
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BaronVonVaderham posted:I have absolutely no clue, but since they're from there originally, I'd think they'd be easier to find than here on the other side of the planet. I could be horribly wrong. Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, you'd think so, but I've never seen any suger glider availability/adoption. I guess the breeders, etc. are more common in the eastern states, seeing as gliders don't reside in SA, where I live. (I looked it up though; interestingly it's legal to have gliders as pets in my state, but not certain otger states here) Oh well; I might have to keep an eye out I guess.
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Apr 25, 2019 13:51
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Major Isoor posted:Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, you'd think so, but I've never seen any suger glider availability/adoption. I guess the breeders, etc. are more common in the eastern states, seeing as gliders don't reside in SA, where I live. (I looked it up though; interestingly it's legal to have gliders as pets in my state, but not certain otger states here) Sugar glider legality is weird. It is legal in a few states in Australia. In the US several states have made them illegal and in those they are legal you need to dig down to county and city rules to make sure. In practice though in the US if it is legal in your state they do not enforce most local regulations but you should ask around.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:41
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I was planning on not playing with the gliders today. I had work to do in my office but I kept hearing crabbing and hissing and I was pretty sure it was Dobby. I came in and everyone was in the sleeping pouch except for Arwen who was playing loudly. I was worried she and Dobby were on the outs again and she seemed a little stressed so I let her out and she started climbing on me. Dobby immediately popped his head out to investigate:  The other three quickly followed. Eilonwy was oddly bitey tonight. Not sure why. She wanted to chew on everything including me. If it becomes a habit I will have to work on it. Here is Arwen jumping from the top of the cage to the floor. She is the only one who makes that jump. Elric comes close but he is still not that brave.  And here is a more modest jump to my arm but it shows off her "wings" better.  It was not graceful but she landed the jump. After about 40 minutes of watching and realizing everyone was getting alone okay and one joint escape attempt by Elric and Arwen to run down the hallway I got them back in the cage and went back to work Then the crabbing started again. Everyone was taking a nap in the pouch except Arwen and someone (probably Dobby) was crabbing and hissing again. I was unsure if Dobby was mad at her or if the noise was scaring him because he did not know exactly what it was. He crabbed whenever she crawled on the outside of the pouch or jumped near him. I stayed in the room working on my tablet and watched. Eventually Arwen got tired and climbed in. Dobby made angry noises as she approached but as soon as she got in he stopped. He is just being pouch protective. If he keeps it up I will have to try to train him out of it but it might be a one off and he is just grumpy or nervous for some reason.
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Apr 26, 2019 06:05
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Xenocides posted:Dobby immediately popped his head out to investigate: haha, what a cutie! How could anyone possibly stay annoyed at a face like that? I bet Dobby always gets his way
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Apr 26, 2019 07:30
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Major Isoor posted:haha, what a cutie! How could anyone possibly stay annoyed at a face like that? I bet Dobby always gets his way Yeah, I gave him a yogurt drop right after that.
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Apr 26, 2019 07:32
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Welp, they organized an escape today. It was cleverly planned. They took the plastic chains I give them to play with and draped it over the level right above the wheel so it made a noise whenever they ran on it. I was not planning on playing with them tonight so I waited until they all seemed busy and opened the upper door to pull it out but it was locked around bars in two locations and one of them was not visible. This gave Arwen a chance to dash up my arm and Eilonwy followed. I realized the door was open and went to close it. Arwen saw this and jumped off me and charged out the door while Eilonwy sat on my shoulder and watched. I decided she seemed calm so I took her with me to get Arwen. I was not sure where she went as the hall was dark. I found her in my office and turned on the light and she ran for the closet. I turned on the light in there and she froze. For the first time she let me pick her up without resisting which was kind of adorable and she darted up my arm and climbed onto my other shoulder. I decided to let the boys out but Dobby wasn't interested so Elric joined them and they chased each other all over me and then I put them back. Sadly I did not get a picture but here is Dobby half-asleep with a treat: 
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May 8, 2019 06:09
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Your life is filled with cute.
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May 8, 2019 07:19
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I love your little geniuses.
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May 8, 2019 12:08
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I went over to a friend's house for a retro gaming night so I knew I would not be able to play with them until later so I gave them their snacks early and got a rare photo of the faces of all four of them. The key when feeding is to get the treats out fast or they start trying to grab and bite off each others. Of course, when one finishes they often do the same thing. And Eilonwy is a reluctant jumper but shes is the fastest climber and will almost always bolt to me to climb up my leg and torso.  And then when she turned around her sister jumped from my shoulder to the ground.  Last night I went in to say hi and found Elric on top of EIlonwy getting a piggyback ride while vigorously thrusting. I was surprised. They are pretty young for that and both the boys are neutered. I was worried it was dominance and later Elric was holding on to the back of her neck with his teeth while mounting her and was worried it was dominance (glider will sometimes ride each other to show dominance by weight) but Eilonwy seemed calm and not upset. Dobby showed up and started trying to pull at Eilonwy too and I blew a puff of air at him as he seemed to be trying to pull her off the hammock they were on. I talked to a glider expert who is kind of my mentor and she told me that sometimes neutered gliders still have sex. Sounds good. Still a little weird. I always thought Elric would pair off with Arwen. She mentioned that it is unlikely she is actually in heat this young so they were just fooling around. After Elric was done I got Eilonwy out to give her a quick checkup and I could not find any wounds from the bite so I put her back and all seems good now.
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May 10, 2019 04:55
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Been a while so I thought I would make another post. My girls have been going into heat so have some sugar glider porn: Elric and Dobby are both neutered but while that makes them infertile it does not always kill the sex drive completely. It looks like he is biting her head but it is just light nips. I checked her over to make sure he was playing nice and there were no wounds. Looks like he is a gentleman. He mated with her at least three times Saturday night. Arwen moved around a bit but did not fight him. I was impressed when I later caught them mating while hanging upside down. I was impressed. Eilonwy first went into heat a few weeks ago and the boys were squabbling over her and caught Elric mating with her too. Dobby was also chasing her and at one point almost pulled her off their hammock to get her away from Elric. I took her out of the cage for a bit but she clearly wanted back and the boys missed her so I put her back and they were nicer. I have heard they get better at dealing with females in heat after the first time. So, a primer on Sugar Glider reproduction. In the wild the females generally go into heat only once or twice a year in the more plentiful food season and all females reach sexual maturity at about eight months which is how old both my girls are. Boys usually do not reach sexual maturity until they are a year old so Elric is either an early bloomer or is not mature as he thinks he is. In captivity females can go into heat year round due to the steady food supply. Births usually happen in twos (my two boys are from the same litter and the girls are from the same litter) but single births and three are not unheard of. When they are born they are about the size of a grain of rice with nubs instead of limbs. This is a newborn sugar glider:  They quickly crawl into mom's pouch and live there. Occasionally the joey is rejected and there is emergency advice available to try to save one. They climb into mom's pouch and live there for two to three months. Then they come out and nurse from mom for a while. Mothers tend to do a kind of singing when they are nursing and when the joeys first exit the pouch as seen here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXzDLxeYIi4 They are not sure if she makes that noise to soothe the joeys or if it is to tell the joeys to ease up due to nipple chafing. Marsupials have a long lactation period so mom has to eat well and rest a lot. The rest of the colony chips in in taking care of the joeys and keeping mom fed. In captivity there are special diets for pregnant and nursing gliders. Once they are weaned they can be safely separated. In captivity this is when they are usually adopted. If you want babies from a breeder this is the earliest age to get them. It is usually easiest to get the whole litter though if you work with a good breeder they can match two or three gliders up and get them used to each other before you show up. Baby joeys are usually agreeable to be friends with any other gliders because they are scared and lonely. Good breeders usually mate a pair for life and keep the two of them together. Switching mates is dangerous unless you go through a good intro process and having colonies have babies makes it harder to determine paternity. The Pet Glider is one of the biggest breeders (my gliders came from them) and keeps genetic records for most gliders born to breeders who track lineage (most of the good ones do). Breeders try to prevent inbreeding and breed for color, health, and how well the glider bonds with humans. If this continues in a few thousand years they may be more like dogs when dealing with people. The big problems with breeding in captivity is that the female gliders often have a lot of babies. Some female gliders will take breaks after several births by nesting separately. A friend of mine who has a breeding pair told me her female will set up camp in the exercise wheel after two or three litters and bat her mate away the next time she goes into heat. Some get haggard from continuous pregnancy. There is no easy solution. Some have experimented with changing food to try to give the female a break but it is hard to figure out how to feed enough to make her comfortable without also going into heat. Separating the two when she goes into heat can help but it is difficult to determine when that is and gliders get lonely if separated. The worst breeders just do not care. A lot of breeders will watch for signs of deteriorating health in the female and retire the couple by neutering the male and keeping them together. You can buy these gliders cheap. It is actually not a bad idea if it fits your needs. Their life is half over so it is probably a three to five year pet instead of an eight to ten. The two are introduced and like each other and breeding couples are very used to human interaction after a lifetime of it so they can make good pets. Some breeders are trash. I don't get it. You can make money breeding gliders but the margins are not that big once you factor in food and care. If you get a glider ask around on the internet to find out what the breeder's reputation is. If they do not have a lineage you should probably pass. Rescues Then there is the dark side of glider ownership. Gliders are often vanity pets. People often buy them because they are exotics and they make for lots of Instagram likes. Then they find out they are a lot of work and if you don't put in the work they do not like you. My friend who I mentioned above has taken in a few colonies from people who got them and then quit. Sometimes life messes with you and you have to get rid of your gliders. You fall in love and your SO is allergic or you have to move somewhere they are illegal or all kinds of other reasons. There are sugar glider rescues. Some are scams but many are authentic. I have talked to some rescue operators and heard some horrible stories. Gliders who do nothing but attack because they have been starved and neglected. The most heartbreaking story was about a two year old female glider. Whenever a human came near she just hunkered down expecting someone to hurt her. She was so resigned to abuse she would not even run or try to hide. Some gliders were kept alone for a long time and self-mutilate and tear out their own fur due to loneliness. Unfortunately some of them are so badly socialized that even if you try to give them a friend they chase them off. Some rescues have used controversial more extreme measures to introduce gliders to try to prevent this self-abuse. This caused a bit of a schism in the past. I support the measures if it means they are happier afterwards. To give an idea one method used is to get the gliders wet and knead the water into their fur. They generally hate being wet. Then you put both of them in a muggy humid area (shower usually) with very bright lights. Provide a pouch. The idea is they are so miserable even antisocially screwed up gliders will forget to fight because of how miserable they are. You keep the light on so they stay in the pouch and they will probably start grooming each other in the pouch. After this they are usually friends. Note: DO NOT DO THIS YOURSELF! This is for gliders who are hurting themselves because they are alone. Some owners have tried to use this as a way to "force" introductions just because they want all their gliders in one cage. I and almost everyone else consider this approach abusive as it is for your own convenience and not to help them. In any case rescues can be a good place to get gliders. I kind of wish I had gone this route. With a rescue though I would definitely go meet the gliders and make sure they are in decent health and are not aggressive towards humans. Some rescues are not that good. Ask around if you can. Tonight was freeze dried chicken neck night. Elric hauled his into the hammock.  Here is where I snapped a pic where I forgot to turn the flash off and he looks demon-possessed. I try not to do this. They do not like bright lights. You also do not want to know what happens if you feed him after midnight. 
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Jun 5, 2019 05:03
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So I had had problems with them biting my upper arm. If baffled me until I felt like an idiot when I realized it was my deodorant. No problem, I went looking for a scentless brand. Got it, and applied and let them out to play. Eilonwy jumped on to my shoulder, dangled upside down, and started biting me repeatedly and hard. Not sure if she thought it was the best food she had ever smelled or if she decided it was pure evil and needed to die. I managed to coax her off and while I was putting her back into the cage Elric jumped from the top of it onto my other choulder and started chewing down. I am glad they cannot break the skin but they sure know how squeeze. I let them stay out, left the room, threw the deodorant away, and took a shower before playing with them again. Guess I will try something else.
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Jun 13, 2019 20:27
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It would not surprise me at all if that deodorant was "scentless" to a human but not to animals that have a better sense of smell.
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Jun 15, 2019 16:55
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wdarkk posted:It would not surprise me at all if that deodorant was "scentless" to a human but not to animals that have a better sense of smell. Yeah, I am trying deodorant designed for hunting now.
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Jun 22, 2019 02:09
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While the shower method for helping broken gliders sounds cruel, I really like how it doesn't actually hurt them - makes them unhappy, yeah, but there's no damage and it gets them a friend. That's way better than, say, dogs - you get an antisocial dog and that's it for them.
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Jun 22, 2019 02:40
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