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fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Does GMG activate on Steam or what?

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fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
The families almost feel closer to EU4's estates than anything in CK2 tbh.

And whoever said that the pops feel more like EU4's development than anything in Victoria made a good point.

Basically I'm seeing way more EU4 than anything else (no bad thing).

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
In theory I really like the idea of making a few high-level decisions about an army (leader, composition, positioning, tactics) and then picking a mission and letting them go off and do their thing. This is one of the developments I'm most excited about in Imperator.

There are still two army-related changes that I would love to see:
1) I think armies should always require a general
2) I think army creation should happen in one city rather than building 1k stacks in loads of cities

My ideal system to raise a new army would be: pick a general, pick a city, then let the army slowly muster its forces one cohort at a time. I think it would keep the map a lot neater without all the 1k leaderless stacks wandering around.

sauer kraut posted:

I cannot believe they're still doing the "armies walking in place until they warp to next region" thing in 2019. C'mon man :smith:

lol I didn't think of this but it is pretty weird. There must be some reason they have to do it this way?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Sekenr posted:

Huh? What would you have them do? Or what other strategy game handles it differently in 2019?

Couldn't they just move from point A to point B?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Jabor posted:

If you required every army to have a (named character) general, that would get annoying when you want to drop off a stack to siege a fort while the rest of the army pursues an enemy or reinforces a fight (or, more gamey, stands one province away to minimize attrition).

Ah yeah, good point.

(Honestly I wouldn't mind not being able to do those things, but I'm one of the weird people who doesn't really enjoy fighting wars in Paradox games, at least beyond the top-level decisions)

Jabor posted:

So your army is visually in province B, then teleports back to province A when an enemy shows up for a fight? That doesn't really seem any better.

Ah yeah, good point.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Spacebar works but sometimes you have to press it a couple of times.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
"Two cities sharing a sea zone count as adjacent for the purpose of colonization"

Why can't I colonize Ireland from the south-west tip of England (Devetiasteno)?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

KOGAHAZAN!! posted:

They don’t share a sea zone.

Only Ayr or Argyll are close enough on the British mainland. Conquering the Hibernian minor and going from there is probably the fastest way.

Oh, duh, I thought sea zone was just like "Mare Verginium". Thanks.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Did anyone post this yet

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwnJ_2uW7Zg

Makes some good points about how spending points and getting instant results doesn't lend itself to fun strategy.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

ilitarist posted:

that makes me think that this guy doesn't understand strategy at all.

uhhh did you miss the part where he quoted sun tzu :agesilaus:

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
I can't tell if I'm playing as the nation or the ruler. If I've got a powerful tribal elder with really good stats should I be trying to weaken him or trying to make him ruler?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Yeah he's the heir currently. I thought maybe I could provoke him into rebelling and then just let him win, but looks like you're not allowed to lose a civil war. It feels a bit unsatisfying that I have to wait for my lovely ruler to die, while spending resources keeping this guy loyal when I'd much rather he took over.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
sometimes I think it might just be that all paradox games are a little bit broken and nonsensical if you look too closely and that the way to enjoy them is to maintain a bit of distance and suspension of disbelief.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Azuren posted:

If you like Paradox games and classical antiquity, and want a map-painting empire builder rather than a super deep character-driven RPG, you'll probably have fun.

This is me but I just don't have fun. I've made a solid good faith attempt to get into it every few months since release, but it just never sticks. I dunno what it is.

fuf fucked around with this message at 11:25 on May 17, 2020

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Beamed posted:

It's a neat idea, but it just leads to micromanagement where army management is "solved", and just tedious and takes time to do right. Kind of like EU4, where there's just optimal army composition, and either you micro the way your armies reinforce, etc., or you're playing suboptimally, no in between. Never been a big fan of attention taxes like that.

Isn't there always gonna be an optimal solution to most things though? Especially army composition where there's a really obvious test of "will it win the battle?"

Like you could have lots of fun options to customise your army with different units and tactics, but eventually a nerd is gonna test all the combinations and make a spreadsheet that tells you which solution is statistically most likely to win. I dunno what the alternative would be.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

ilitarist posted:

The point is EU4 has an optimal army composition for the whole game with very few exceptions. As in if you are not a Horde or Poland you should have no more than 2 cavalry, infantry and artillery as much as width/supply allows. You don't really care what the enemy brings. In I:R you're supposed to care about enemy army composition and culture and tactics. You find the optimal solution for each war, not for the whole game.

ah yeah ok that is a big difference

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Red Bones posted:

I wonder how the AI is going to handle such a massive change to how warfare and economic management interact.

Unfortunately I think we can guess the answer to this :(

E: the changes look great though

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
I still had my usual Imperator experience where I start a new game and the first popup is "you have unused trade routes in your capital" and I click it and look at the list of trade goods and my eyes kinda glaze over and I wonder if I care

usually that's when I quit but I'm determined to push through it this time

Is it just because I'm more familiar with the others or is this the most complex paradox game? With the pops, character, and family stuff it just seems like there's so much going on. Or are the scales gonna fall from my eyes in a few hours?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

RabidWeasel posted:

Is there a game with both naval and land combat where the naval combat is interesting?

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1069650/Ultimate_Admiral_Age_of_Sail/

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
why does the game default to putting archers in the front rank and infantry behind? that doesn't match my image of what a battle should look like but maybe they're supposed to do a bit of damage and then flee?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
These posts about recommended nations are helpful, thank you.

I am planning a game at the weekend with two friends, and none of us really know how the game works yet. We'll probably restart a few times but any thoughts about a fun combination of nations to play?

(we always play cooperatively)

(one of us really wants to play Athens...)

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
are there any strategies for dealing with the desync MP issue? does it get worse with more players?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
ahhh the desync issue is so annoying. I should have listened to you guys.

We had fun for a few hours but in the end it got too frustrating. It sucks because we used to play loads of EU4 multiplayer and it was really stable.

I do think this is a really good game now though. The way the systems tie together can be very interesting.

I realised that you can build loads of one-ship fleets and put a character in command of each one and it's an easy way to get every family to "grateful" level. It's a bit gamey but it's also funny to imagine all these incompetent young nobles being given a ship to keep them distracted.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Dorkopotamis posted:

Can someone link a good/not annoying LP that will teach my dumbass how to play this game in it's modern state?

this guy is pretty good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBp3zPePRp4

playlist of his guides (all for the updated version):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBp3zPePRp4&list=PLBFHMnSg-2ypZbImgNqTb7s83E6bMAcqc

he's a bit long-winded but he actually knows the game. A lot of other videos I tried to watch would just rush through all the new features and go "wow cool!" (looking at you quil18)

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
I think I'm in a sweet spot at the moment where the game kind of makes sense but I haven't noticed its flaws yet because right now I am really liking the game a lot.

I think someone said it above but it feels the most simulation-y of the Paradox games and I'm impressed how often the mechanics feed into each other. There's something cool about setting various wheels in motion and then watching your pops / nation / characters slowly change.

I know people say the tribal stuff is not very padded out but I think the goal of turning a tribe into a monarchy is a pretty good way to introduce various parts of the game. It forces you to start manipulating centralisation, civilisation level, and leader popularity at the very least.

Star posted:

I haven't had the chance as they've been calling me into wars constantly but that seems to work as well. Now I only need to understand why the province of Dalmatia's loyalty is dropping fast and why my research efficiency is so bad. Is it generally better to try and integrate the major cultural groups in your nation?

If there's a culture that has roughly the same number of pops (or more) as your main culture then I think integrating them is a good idea? Because assimilating that many is gonna take a long time.

But I also think that integrating more pops can tank your research ratio because it's the ratio of research output to integrated pops (for some reason?)

I think province loyalty is a direct result of territory unrest which is a direct result of pop happiness. There is a province policy called "harsh treatment" which increases loyalty (while also decreasing pop happiness, so weirdly you add to the problem at the same time as solving it).

To be honest it sometimes feels like you can pretty much ignore internal economics / pop demographics and just keep conquering and watching the numbers go up. Like yeah most of your pops will be basically unhappy but it takes a lot for them to actually be disloyal.

As a tribal nation most of my internal meddling was just to try and bump up my research output, so concentrating citizens and nobles in cities and building buildings which increase research output (is there anything else?)

The second priority would be adding more trade routes in provinces because most of your income comes from commerce. There's a province action (the four little buttons on the province overview, not sure what they're called) that does this but it costs political influence which is usually your rarest resource. Trade routes can also appear organically if there are enough pops in a city (I think? or just the province?) but I have never seen this happen yet.

The third priority is I guess trying to get certain territories to produce two or more trade goods instead of just one. You can do this by moving loads of slaves there, but I've never managed this way. The easier way is to turn a settlement into a city.

I feel like governor province policies are an area that can have a big impact, but I tend to just put them on "optimise trade" (or whatever the commerce boost one is called). The AI governors always seem to pick "local autonomy"...

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Oh I always forget about colonies. In fact I don't think I've ever used any of those culture decisions on the culture screen... (except integrating)

Is there a way to decrease character corruption?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
is there ANY mechanism for reducing corruption beyond increasing wages on the economy tab?

my ruler had like 70 corruption and it totally wrecked my ability to generate political influence

alternatively, is there any way to orchestrate a replacement of your ruler?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

trapped mouse posted:

There's an Oratory idea that reduces corruption as well.

Aha! Thank you. I always forget to check those.

It's insane how many little buttons and slots this game has. And just resources and modifiers in general. I'm still really enjoying it (but I'm only playing a few hours a week with friends so that helps).

Like I just realised how powerful some of the military traditions are. I thought they were all just very army-specific "light infantry +10%" stuff, but some of them give you a big boost of pops, or permanent happiness bonuses etc. Very cool.

Jabarto posted:

Also it took me a while to realize that a lot of character traits impose a minimum corruption level on that character, so you can never fully eliminate it.

yeah my ruler has loads of lovely traits unfortunately

fuf fucked around with this message at 10:03 on Apr 12, 2021

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Bosporan kingdom is such a good starting nation for new players. You start small so it's not overwhelming but you're in a very strong position in a very manageable part of the world.

What's the deal with Holdings? I always just assumed that if a territory was someone's personal holding that it would give reduced income, but that doesn't actually seem to be true, unless I just can't see where the modifier is applied? How come some characters seem to magically gain holdings? Are they buying them? Is it a good idea to give my ruler extra holdings to increase his income for more bribes? I have been revoking holdings from other characters when I can, but is there any point?

What is the limit on "Move pops"? Is it just range based? Is it normal to be doing a lot of bunny hopping of pops from territory to territory to get them where you want them to go?

Am I right that unless a settlement has enough slaves for two trade goods, then it might as well just have one slave and the others would be better off in a city where they can contribute to building slots and convert / assimilate / promote much faster?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Nice, thank you

RabidWeasel posted:

a coastal territory if they're in a province with a port.

aha, this one is especially interesting as Bosporan kingdom because you naturally end up forming a ring around the Black sea, so sounds like it could be pretty easy to move pops around from coast to coast. Very cool.

RabidWeasel posted:

If you want to preserve your sanity I recommend not trying to optimise this too much.

haha yeah that makes sense, but it's at least nice to know what the optimal would be

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

RabidWeasel posted:

to a coastal territory if they're in a province with a port.


RabidWeasel posted:

You can also send people down major rivers which is cool, makes colonising into deep Scythia a lot easier. Though the pathing only goes along the river course itself so you can't just send all of your colonists directly from Taurica

Hmm I can't get either of these to work. I can only move pops from the same province or adjacent territory. Is it a tech or something?

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Yeah that would be cool but also the list would be a bit overwhelming

Part of me wishes that pops were just province-level and not territory-level

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

KOGAHAZAN!! posted:

That, uh, would break a whole bunch of stuff, for not much gain?

yeah I obviously mean in a "if the game had been designed differently" sense

the gain imo would be making pops a bit more manageable so that it's fun to engage with rather than being something people are warned away from to preserve their sanity

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
what causes the "Governor Wages: -25%" penalty to province commerce income? Sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not and I can't figure out the pattern.

e: uhh never mind I think it might just always be there. I'm sure I saw it disappear once or twice...

fuf fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Apr 27, 2021

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
That sucks! Imperator is honestly my favourite paradox game right now.

Yes it's full of problems but I dunno if I can go back to the other games after the pop system of imperator. They are gonna feel so empty.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha
Yeah Bosporan kingdom! It's the best. Honestly a little TOO much empty land to colonise so you forget to fight wars.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

StashAugustine posted:

Okay started over as Massilia and have close to unified my starting region. Assuming I don't get eaten by Rome, how should I be developing my territory? I've got a bunch of levies since I integrated the main barbarian culture but it doesn't seem like I'm making thst much more money

Your commerce income is usually way higher than tax income so one good strategy is to find a territory with a valuable trade good and build a city there because cities automatically produce two trade goods instead of one.

The other way to get two trade goods in a territory is to pack loads of slaves into it, but I've never really been successful with this. In fact there's usually no point in having more than one slave in a non-city territory, because you only need one to produce the trade good, so if you can be bothered to micromanage it's good to move as many as possible into your cities so they can promote to citizens and nobles etc. and make use of the bonuses from buildings.

Then pick all the bonuses you can that increase commerce income: there's an idea that does it, an omen, etc.

When it comes to developing cities I'm usually worried about research so I build libraries and the buildings that increase your ratio of nobles and citizens.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

KDdidit posted:

What's the mechanic that allows your land to get occupied in a war even without enemy troops stepping foot in it? A cursory google search says something about fort control, but I'm like 99% sure the enemy didn't have any occupied forts nearby. I thought it might have something to do with a port, but it doesn't seem to be that either.

It's the province capital. If you capture that then all the other territories in the province will flip over unless they have a fort or army in.

The province capital has an icon so it's pretty easy to spot.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

teokarp posted:

Yesterday continued my Carthago campaign... and the game just has too many personas (with all those inter-person-events also). In a very interruptive way too many.

It materializes in a wish that they should have had abstracted the family into single entity (something like Republic of Rome boardgame has).

Almost everything else is great (or great-close).

Yeah agreed. I would happily use a mod that disables all those events where you have to just pick which characters to piss off. Usually you can sort of pick at random but occasionally it will drop someone below 40 loyalty and cause loads of issues.

It's a shame because disloyal generals and governors could be one of the most interesting parts of the game (I do like how disloyal generals will just do their own thing), but there's just too many characters and not enough to distinguish them or engage with them in a fun way...

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fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

Red Bones posted:

If I am conquering a region that has a different religion and a different culture group to my own, what's the standard approach? Am I meant to integrate the culture, convert all the pops, un-integrate it then assimilate all of them? Or do I just sit there and let it take ages and deal with the very low province loyalty and rebellions? If I'm Rome and I've just conquered the Po valley, or if I'm Carthage and I've just conquered the rest of the megalithic berber states in North Africa, what am I meant to do?

I'm no expert but I usually go by the number of pops. If the number rivals my existing integrated pops then integrate them, if there aren't that many then just let them slowly assimilate.

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