|
Main Paineframe posted:I don't know much about remote shitholes no one cares about, but Wikipedia tells me that Vancouver is the most populated city in the entire province and the highest population density in the country. I'd guess that an "alright wage" "anywhere else in Canada" might not be very attractive in this particular place. And indeed, the internet also tells me that Vancouver's extremely high "shelter-cost-to-income ratio" (Vancouver's housing costs are the highest of any Canadian city, while its median income is among the lowest of any Canadian city) makes it one of the most unaffordable places to live in the entire world, let alone in Canada. It's also consistently ranked one of the top handful of cities in the world to live in. That's how living in big cities works. The cost of living goes up because of the demand, and people pay it because they want to have easy access to the nightlife, food, and events that happen there. There's always people who will accept marginally higher wages and a significantly higher cost of living to live in a place like that, and the number of immigrants coming to Vancouver is a testament to that. Canada's issue is rooted more in its demographics. It's got a very old workforce, to the point that immigration is only a band-aid.
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 13:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 09:47 |
|
|
Mineaiki posted:Recruiters and much of HR have to be some of the biggest grifters in the private sector. Literally do nothing but pretend to know how to hire The Best People all day long and still get normal-rear end employees. They serve an important function as a brick wall between the unwashed wage filth and actual decision makers.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 14:35
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's also consistently ranked one of the top handful of cities in the world to live in. That's how living in big cities works. The cost of living goes up because of the demand, and people pay it because they want to have easy access to the nightlife, food, and events that happen there. There's always people who will accept marginally higher wages and a significantly higher cost of living to live in a place like that, and the number of immigrants coming to Vancouver is a testament to that. Canada's issue is rooted more in its demographics. It's got a very old workforce, to the point that immigration is only a band-aid. Counterpoint: people need to eat, and consistently those population hubs are where more of the jobs are. So while there are certainly people who flock to the city for all of the cool perks of metropolitan life, I'd argue there's a bigger chunk of people playing triage. Since they need to eat, and a company can work at 'reduced efficiency' or just squeeze more out of current workers longer than prospective hires can go without food or shelter, negotiations are skewed in the employer's and landlord's favor. That's why people accept a marginal pay bump for significant cost of living increases.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 15:09
|
|
|
Coolness Averted posted:Counterpoint: people need to eat, and consistently those population hubs are where more of the jobs are. So while there are certainly people who flock to the city for all of the cool perks of metropolitan life, I'd argue there's a bigger chunk of people playing triage. That's a common reason why people would move to some of the other big regional cities in Canada, but not Vancouver. Like no retail worker is moving to or living in San Francisco because it makes the most sense financially.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 15:28
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's also consistently ranked one of the top handful of cities in the world to live in. That's how living in big cities works. The cost of living goes up because of the demand, and people pay it because they want to have easy access to the nightlife, food, and events that happen there. There's always people who will accept marginally higher wages and a significantly higher cost of living to live in a place like that, and the number of immigrants coming to Vancouver is a testament to that. Canada's issue is rooted more in its demographics. It's got a very old workforce, to the point that immigration is only a band-aid. I'm just pointing to why so many applicants might be having sudden second thoughts about a job that pays an "alright wage anywhere else" in a city with a worse imbalance between housing costs and wages than even San Francisco or New York.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's also consistently ranked one of the top handful of cities in the world to live in. That's how living in big cities works. The cost of living goes up because of the demand, and people pay it because they want to have easy access to the nightlife, food, and events that happen there. There's always people who will accept marginally higher wages and a significantly higher cost of living to live in a place like that, and the number of immigrants coming to Vancouver is a testament to that. Canada's issue is rooted more in its demographics. It's got a very old workforce, to the point that immigration is only a band-aid. That might be how things work in your world, but the vast majority of people do not go beep boop I have decided to make a rational trade and will move to this city to sacrifice some income for these benefits. People just deal with the life they have and loving struggle doing it.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:That's a common reason why people would move to some of the other big regional cities in Canada, but not Vancouver. Like no retail worker is moving to or living in San Francisco because it makes the most sense financially. But there are retail and 'entry level' workers in those areas generally making negative money, but eating. I just don't buy they're all doing it for the glamour of living in the big city. Or commuting 2-4 hours a day for the prestige of that workplace.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 16:26
|
|
|
Volkerball posted:It's also consistently ranked one of the top handful of cities in the world to live in. That's how living in big cities works. The cost of living goes up because of the demand, and people pay it because they want to have easy access to the nightlife, food, and events that happen there. There's always people who will accept marginally higher wages and a significantly higher cost of living to live in a place like that, and the number of immigrants coming to Vancouver is a testament to that. Canada's issue is rooted more in its demographics. It's got a very old workforce, to the point that immigration is only a band-aid. Except the immigration problem with Vancouver isn't immigrants coming to work it is quite wealthy high net worth individuals mostly from China stashing money in Vancouver real estate. Comparatively Vancouver is more expensive than Seattle about 150 miles south, but with fewer jobs and lower wages across the board. Like any big city there are large companies with offices and high paying jobs, but comparatively less than other booming coastal cities. I don't live in Vancouver, but from talking to people from there that seems to be the issue.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 16:43
|
|
|
Googling indicates that rent is lower in Vancouver than Seattle, actually, at least nominally.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 17:08
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Googling indicates that rent is lower in Vancouver than Seattle, actually, at least nominally. It might have changed more recently, I think I remember reading it was higher a year ago, but as with everything rent is fluctuating. It looks like there may have been some major double digit price decreases in the last year, looking for a better source. Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 17:34 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 17:30
|
|
|
Cicero posted:Googling indicates that rent is lower in Vancouver than Seattle, actually, at least nominally. The impression I came away with was that Vancouver housing prices aren't as high as housing costs in major American cities...but living in those major American cities usually comes with a wage premium, which isn't the case for Vancouver. For example, Seattle's median household income is over $20k above the general US median income, while Vancouver's median income is about the same as Canada's general median income. So although the basic home prices may not give the impression of sticker shock for those used to US housing prices, Vancouver pairs those urban housing prices with being one of the poorest major cities in Canada.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 17:38
|
|
|
People do move to the city because they think their life will be better there, whether that’s because they want to go clubbing, because their desired work industry is there, or because they are discriminated against in their home community. Also because, even if they don’t have a specific career in mind, there is generally more opportunity for work in cities. These are all acceptable reasons to move to a city and we should not discourage people. What is not acceptable is disgustingly wealthy people, foreign or domestic, buying up tons of real estate that they’ll never use and squeezing everyone else out. Or NIMBYs camping out in neighborhoods and slowly strangling everyone else to death by refusing to allow any changes that would do anything other than increase their property value. Or landlords squatting on acres of vacant property seeking fantastical rents. So let’s not blame the actual residents of cities before we blame the people who use the cities for everything except living and working in.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 18:15
|
|
|
I never no-showed for an interview, but several years ago when I was looking to switch into data science / analytics from engineering, I did go on a place that was completely industrial. Turns out it was for inventory management, not actual data analytics, so I looked completely out of place in a suit. Upon driving up, I considered just turning around and not wasting my time, but went in for an interview and in about 5 minutes it was done and we pretty much agreed it wasn't a fit for me. One other thing, here in the US, a lot of jobs are posted online and often by recruiting agencies. It takes an application before the actual company you'll be applying to through the recruiting firm is revealed. One of the ones I applied to seemed like a solid position, but when I found out it was with Comcast, and was in a group where a bunch of people had been forced out and replaced, I would have refused the interview if not for the recruiters also had another position for me at a different company. That being said, just not showing up to a scheduled interview does seem unprofessional when at least a quick phone call could clear up the matter. This works both ways, as you mentioned, sometimes I've gone to interviews and been told enthusiastically that they'll get back to me shortly and then nothing, not even answers to followup emails or calls.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 03:08
|
|
|
Jolly Jumbuck posted:One other thing, here in the US, a lot of jobs are posted online and often by recruiting agencies. This happens everywhere - I've gotten recruiters pitching a job in my own team more times than I can remember, they don't even look at your loving LinkedIn
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 07:51
|
|
|
My small sample of this is usually the person has a bunch of other interviews and jobs and they get something better first or something more important comes up in their life and since all the employers have been ghosting them when the reverse situation happens they just think that's what's expected in return now.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 08:15
|
|
|
what pisses me off is when a recruiter contacts me by email, i take the time to respond to them, and they never bother responding back
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 08:26
|
|
|
The worst interview I ever had is a tie between the one where the interviewer blew a huge fart and the one where the interviewer casually lit a cigarette and started chain smoking.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 09:40
|
|
|
Prokhor Zakharov posted:The worst interview I ever had is a tie between the one where the interviewer blew a huge fart and the one where the interviewer casually lit a cigarette and started chain smoking. I would have taken the job with the no fucks given smoker. That was a test.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 09:51
|
|
|
Always carry a couple of cigars to the interview for that situation.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 10:36
|
|
|
It reminds me one day I answered a barely intelligible phone call from someone asking if I agreed to an interview tomorrow. I didnt get which company it was for but assumed I'd get the info in a confirmation email. The email shows up but it's from a third party recruiter and doesn't have extra info except the date and address. I didn't think much about it because I felt mildly feverish and was about to go out for drinks. The next day I dial the address in my gps and leave. It's a short drive but it quickly dawns on me that I shouldn't be at the wheel because alcohol and fever compounded into a pleasant daze and my reactions times are busted. I get there, the building doesn't have signage or anything. Someone greets me and eventually I'm led through a series of underground corridors to a room where people start a casual interview conversation; ask whether I've preliminary questions about the position. I still don't know who they are and what I'm here for so I brush it off politely. After a few minutes i get very tired and unable to converse normally so I just ramble with my head tilted back for a while. Haven't heard back 
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 11:28
|
|
|
Flannelette posted:My small sample of this is usually the person has a bunch of other interviews and jobs and they get something better first or something more important comes up in their life and since all the employers have been ghosting them when the reverse situation happens they just think that's what's expected in return now. Yeah, hell I've even had property managers no show/stop answering phone calls while I was literally standing outside the building after I made an appointment to view a place because they had found someone to rent it while I was driving over. The lack of common courtesy shown by businesses when they have the slightest whiff of imbalanced power is what leads to people greeting them in kind.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 15:01
|
|
|
Jolly Jumbuck posted:I never no-showed for an interview, but several years ago when I was looking to switch into data science / analytics from engineering, I did go on a place that was completely industrial. Turns out it was for inventory management, not actual data analytics, so I looked completely out of place in a suit. Upon driving up, I considered just turning around and not wasting my time, but went in for an interview and in about 5 minutes it was done and we pretty much agreed it wasn't a fit for me. There's a lot of discourtesy on the hiring side that I think is often compeltely unnecessary. In 2019 an HR department should at least be able to process a polite mass rejection email to candidates who weren't selected. Often I think delays are caused by the team a person's being hired for not having their poo poo together or having other things to do and being professionals about thier jobs but not about that, so it's probably a hard problem to solve. A couple of people upthread talked about employment being a transactional relationship and no side having particular obligations to the other, and...yeah, from a certain point of view, that's true. If you reduce it down to its most basic "law of the jungle, everything is an exploitative power dynamic" kind of interpretation, that's true. Sort of. The thing is, though, holy poo poo do you not want to be working with or working for, for the most part, people who only look at it that way. That kind of cynicism is poisonous in a work environment and if I get a whiff that a potential hire thinks that way then they cease being a potential hire. And I would hope that if people perceive an employer thinks that way they run far, far away. Re: Not wanting to negotiate. I don't know if that's mostly an American thing but I feel like it is? Americans never seem to want to bargain and view it as a huge pain in the rear end. As a consequence they often take too much as it's presented and either pay too much or ask too little. IMO, at least. Nobody hiring you has infinite money so if they can save a little on paying you because you're not willing to negotiate...well...they're doing their jobs and you're not.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:27
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:There's a lot of discourtesy on the hiring side that I think is often compeltely unnecessary. In 2019 an HR department should at least be able to process a polite mass rejection email to candidates who weren't selected. Often I think delays are caused by the team a person's being hired for not having their poo poo together or having other things to do and being professionals about thier jobs but not about that, so it's probably a hard problem to solve. Lol your last two paragraphs  e: You literally say that viewing the relationship as transactional is lame and bad and you'd definitely not hire someone like that, but then are all in on the idea of an employer exploiting a potential worker because welp that's the way the world works guy! How are u fucked around with this message at 16:41 on May 14, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:33
|
|
|
How are u posted:Lol your last two paragraphs Negotiating to come to an agreement isn't exploiting anyone, on either side. It's just looking out for your interests.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:42
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Negotiating to come to an agreement isn't exploiting anyone, on either side. It's just looking out for your interests. It sure as poo poo is when the power dynamics are skewed as all gently caress, and you fully understand it.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:43
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Negotiating to come to an agreement isn't exploiting anyone, on either side. It's just looking out for your interests. I mean, it's literally deciding how much someone gets paid based on one random irrelevant skill. L
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:48
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:I mean, it's literally deciding how much someone gets paid based on one random irrelevant skill. L Skill at negotiating salary - an irrelevant skill when it comes to getting a salary. How are u posted:It sure as poo poo is when the power dynamics are skewed as all gently caress, and you fully understand it. Again...that is some toxic attitude, IMO. Not just for an employer but for YOU. If you don't like an offer you can find a better one and tell the employer to gently caress off, or negotiate. People do both all the time, and people who are willing to do those things will make more than people who don't.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:52
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Skill at negotiating salary - an irrelevant skill when it comes to getting a salary. Other than a salesman what merit is there at paying someone who is better at negotiating more than someone who isn't? Especially when the vastly uneven distribution of who gets good at negotiating in our society?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:54
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:Skill at negotiating salary - an irrelevant skill when it comes to getting a salary. This is not at all how life works for like at least half of the population. Your privilege is shining like the sun.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 16:59
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:Other than a salesman what merit is there at paying someone who is better at negotiating more than someone who isn't? Especially when the vastly uneven distribution of who gets good at negotiating in our society? You save money on your hiring budget for some of your hires, one. Two, those skills translate usefully into other areas. An employee who can navigate their choices and negotiate you without coming off as too much of an rear end in a top hat to hire has social skills that are going to help you as an employer.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:00
|
|
|
How are u posted:This is not at all how life works for like at least half of the population. Your privilege is shining like the sun. It works like that for everyone whether the outcomes seem just or not. A lot of people potentially have only lovely options and that sucks, but is not really my fault, either.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:01
|
|
|
please rename the thread to "Why does no one want to work for a giant rear end in a top hat?"
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:01
|
|
|
imo negotiating a wage is tedious nonsense that's why i'm in a union, so some freak who likes it can do it on my behalf
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:03
|
|
|
When you think about it it's really your own fault for being so powerless that I"m forced to exploit you.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:04
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:You save money on your hiring budget for some of your hires, one. Two, those skills translate usefully into other areas. An employee who can navigate their choices and negotiate you without coming off as too much of an rear end in a top hat to hire has social skills that are going to help you as an employer. It's very transparently a way to pay certain types of people less than others with the cover that some people earned it by using an unmeasurable vague factor where pay isn't equal and someone just gets to use some vague agreeability factor to set pay then just declare it's just coincidence all the black women are just so darn bad at negotiating vs the white men but that negotiating is a useful skill in their job that has literally nothing to do with negotiation so it's fair.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:04
|
|
|
How are u posted:When you think about it it's really your own fault for being so powerless that I"m forced to exploit you. first time reading wateroverfire?
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:There's a lot of discourtesy on the hiring side that I think is often compeltely unnecessary. In 2019 an HR department should at least be able to process a polite mass rejection email to candidates who weren't selected. Often I think delays are caused by the team a person's being hired for not having their poo poo together or having other things to do and being professionals about thier jobs but not about that, so it's probably a hard problem to solve. I’ve actually found my most “transactional” bosses to be some of my best, due to their respecting me as a human being who needs to work in order to make money. On the other hand, the other bosses, who I will call “lifestyle bosses”, tend to be some of the worst. They want you to hurl your heart and soul into the job because of course you love it. So you do that, and you stake a great deal of your self-worth on it, but the boss of course can just hide behind “the budget”/“corporate”/his/her boss when they inevitably deny your devoted rear end a raise. So it’s personal for you, transactional for them. On a related note, these also tend to be the bosses with shelves full of airheaded books on management.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:22
|
|
|
wateroverfire posted:A couple of people upthread talked about employment being a transactional relationship and no side having particular obligations to the other, and...yeah, from a certain point of view, that's true. If you reduce it down to its most basic "law of the jungle, everything is an exploitative power dynamic" kind of interpretation, that's true. Sort of. The thing is, though, holy poo poo do you not want to be working with or working for, for the most part, people who only look at it that way. That kind of cynicism is poisonous in a work environment and if I get a whiff that a potential hire thinks that way then they cease being a potential hire. And I would hope that if people perceive an employer thinks that way they run far, far away. It's always transactional at the low end. If you're convinced that an applicant is not viewing the hiring process as transactional, then you're just being duped by someone who is better at the game than you. It doesn't become more than this until you're well into the salary range where applicants stop treating jobs as paychecks.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:25
|
|
|
How are u posted:When you think about it it's really your own fault for being so powerless that I"m forced to exploit you. Look I think it's incredibly ~toxic~ when you point out in plain language just how raw of a deal you're getting and that this isn't a negotiation in good faith. Couldn't you just smile a bit more and take it? It would make this far more pleasant for both of us. I like to think of Company Inc as more as a family than a business. This isn't transactional, we're building something together -Daddy's vast horde of wealth. In this family analogy, I am the good son and it's my duty to ensure Daddy is treated well, and I get certain benefits for that. It's your job as the family mule to do whatever I want, otherwise you get the rod. Also when you get too old or costly to keep around, we'll put you out of your misery. Daddy would never do that to me.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:29
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 29, 2024 09:47 |
|
|
Alternatively, we may be hiring a second good boy, in which case it is your job to make sure the mules work and Daddy is happy with us. Once again I want to remind you Daddy would never treat us like the family's mules.
|
|
#
?
May 14, 2019 17:32
|
|