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TGG posted:I like that you can still occasionally see random Praetorian Hamidon tendrils pop up around the bounds of Praetoria, rare spawns but you'll hear a roar and they'll pop up in the distance out of bounds. It shows that despite all of its problems they did put some lore love in to at least some parts of Going Rogue. There's actually secret, hidden zone events in the 3 Praetorian zones that track kills on PPD, and once it hits a threshold the visual triggers. There's something buggy with the timers on them though and they wind up breaking a lot, and the only fix is a server reset.
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Mar 22, 2024 08:55
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Even aside from the impressive graphical upgrade, the environments in GR were truly incredible and showed a lot of thought and care toward environmental worldbuilding. I'm still salty that they ignored the results of the poll (where "outer space" won and I was looking forward to it), but drat if they didn't validate the choice to go with Praetoria right out of the gate. Maybe they just weren't confident that they could pull off an equally rich and varied set of space zones, but I can't stop imagining what could have been if they had taken a more Cosmic (not necessarily Incarnate) turn with the talent they had working on Going Rogue/1-20 Praetoria.
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Mar 22, 2024 13:57
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Odder still they had plans to do space poo poo all the way back around I8 with the Faultline dam fracture being caused by "gravitational disturbances on the moon" and the space ship launch pad construction. Though it never really sounded like they had a strong idea of what they wanted to actually DO up there. It was basically just "moon nazis" and "even more Rikti" written on a cocktail napkin from what I remember. And then of course they pushed Praetoria so hard and so unilaterally and had it so shackled to their obnoxious raid system that everyone got sick of it so they decided to completely 180 pivot away from it in the messiest and least satisfying way possible.  Nothing like building up to Praetorian Hamidon for a solid 2-3 years and then going "nah we're done with that now".
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Mar 22, 2024 15:35
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I think it's the whole "pivot away from it just as it was about to hit the big payoff" bit that sticks the most. Speaking of Praetoria, I just got another Praetorian out of there, and was reminded of the myriad reasons they tell you not to start there. It's not just things like "the big Arachnos reveal won't land if you've never heard of them before," it's also previously mentioned things like "the mission maps are loving enormous," "the enemies hit really god drat hard for their level," and "I heard you like ambushes, so we put an ambush in your ambush so you can get jumped while you're being sneak attacked." I did it as an Arsenal/Arsenal Dominator, so my stealth cloak helped me avoid most of the fights on the giant slog maps, but on the stuff where I had an NPC "helper," for these last few I just went ahead and called in a buddy with a heal because if you don't have a way to heal your helpers, they'll eventually get worn down by attrition.
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Mar 23, 2024 05:50
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MechaCrash posted:I think it's the whole "pivot away from it just as it was about to hit the big payoff" bit that sticks the most. Yeah the big issue for me with Praetoria and why I don't tend to replay it unless I really want to run with a Praetorian character concept is that the enemies are ridiculously overtuned. The main problem I think is that they overloaded them with attacks; low level enemies in normal blue/redside tend to have like one, maybe two moves they can use, so they just hit you and then wait for a while until it comes off cooldown. It seems like all the Praetorian enemies have enough attacks for a full rotation, so even if they don't hit any harder per-hit than other enemies at the same level, their DPS is much higher.
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Mar 23, 2024 06:17
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MechaCrash posted:I think it's the whole "pivot away from it just as it was about to hit the big payoff" bit that sticks the most. frankly you can and should just run past most of those maps on any AT. there are a couple of missions here and there where you have to hold a spot while waves of stuff come at you and those kind of suck unless you have some useful damage and/or some tools to keep you from dying but nowadays you can just load up on P2W/T4V temp attacks and have a couple of pretty decent AOEs, fill your tray with purples whenever you happen to die.
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Mar 23, 2024 11:01
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah the big issue for me with Praetoria and why I don't tend to replay it unless I really want to run with a Praetorian character concept is that the enemies are ridiculously overtuned. The main problem I think is that they overloaded them with attacks; low level enemies in normal blue/redside tend to have like one, maybe two moves they can use, so they just hit you and then wait for a while until it comes off cooldown. It seems like all the Praetorian enemies have enough attacks for a full rotation, so even if they don't hit any harder per-hit than other enemies at the same level, their DPS is much higher. And they used to be worse. The Syndicate, anyway. I don't think any other group even got tweaked. They outright admitted they forgot how to design entry level enemies and boy does it show.
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Mar 23, 2024 13:24
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John Murdoch posted:Odder still they had plans to do space poo poo all the way back around I8 with the Faultline dam fracture being caused by "gravitational disturbances on the moon" and the space ship launch pad construction. Though it never really sounded like they had a strong idea of what they wanted to actually DO up there. It was basically just "moon nazis" and "even more Rikti" written on a cocktail napkin from what I remember. To be fair I have some faith that they'd have been able to swing something. Hell, the Imperious TF could translate pretty easily into a moon-Nazi setting, and might actually have integrated better with the overall setting than all the extended Greco-Roman stuff they tried to do later and didn't really work. quote:And then of course they pushed Praetoria so hard and so unilaterally and had it so shackled to their obnoxious raid system that everyone got sick of it so they decided to completely 180 pivot away from it in the messiest and least satisfying way possible. To be honest, the ultimate encounter with Praetorian Hamidon was actually more or less what I was hoping to see. The bigger problem, at least for me, was the convoluted and non-contiguous mix of arcs/TFs/optional content required to put it in context, as well as that fact that it wasn't resolved before shutdown. Problems with execution, too, I guess; the devs had previously made an extremely strong case that Hamidon could be the key to turning back the Battalion, rather than an unconvincing face turn by Evil Statesman.
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Mar 24, 2024 04:21
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In context of the ITF and pretty much only the ITF, Cimerora works because nazis have a fetish for Roman poo poo and the Path of the Dark was already established there. It's also sort of supposed to be the culmination of the Ouroboros drama from Issue 11 as Requiem was supposed to be the one jumping around in time sabotaging stuff, though naturally this information can be found nowhere in game, afaik. But basically everything else is complete nonsense, yeah. Which ultimate Hamidon encounter do you mean? The one where you fight off a bunch of avatars? That arc is satisfying but if you place a gigantic tentacle monster on the mantlepiece in act one, you drat well better fire it in act three.  Also while I credit that arc for being one of the only times they acknowledged one of their own dropped plots, it seemed primed to itself just become a dropped plot point; it's screamingly obvious the main story would continue to treat Praetoria as dead.But I also agree about the non-contiguous stuff. Nothing like getting shotgun blasted with "this mission takes place before x but after y" because they had no better way of handling it. Makes me think the raid design team was full steam ahead and the story team had to follow behind trying to glue all the pieces together. The Belladonna arc I mentioned before is ostensibly centered on tracking down Chimera, but it ends up being far and away more about loving Pendragon/Nega-loving-Pendragron with removing Chimera from the board being a strictly mechanical act rather than producing a good story. (Not helped by Chimera being painfully uncompelling and feeling like a leftover from the original Praetorian stuff.)
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Mar 24, 2024 15:13
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John Murdoch posted:In context of the ITF and pretty much only the ITF, Cimerora works because nazis have a fetish for Roman poo poo and the Path of the Dark was already established there. It's also sort of supposed to be the culmination of the Ouroboros drama from Issue 11 as Requiem was supposed to be the one jumping around in time sabotaging stuff, though naturally this information can be found nowhere in game, afaik. But basically everything else is complete nonsense, yeah. Absolutely nowhere, yeah. If it really was intended to cap off the Ouroboros letter-writer stuff, it answers exactly none of the many questions about how Requiem was aware of Ouroboros, what his greater intentions were, etc. Nor does it really do much to advance the game's recurring theme of mythological archetypes, other than to observe "hey check it out, ancient Roman Statesman and Sister Psyche, neat". The more interesting questions where that is concerned either just devolved into Mcguffin quests for ancient artifacts (like the Death of Statesman and Signature Story arcs) or "I'll tell you later" handwaving by Prometheus, that loving bastard. quote:Which ultimate Hamidon encounter do you mean? The one where you fight off a bunch of avatars? That arc is satisfying but if you place a gigantic tentacle monster on the mantlepiece in act one, you drat well better fire it in act three. I just liked the idea of meeting an ultrapowerful Hamidon who chose to return to (or at least occasionally manifest) in a human state and have a reasonable conversation to explain his perspective. It would just have felt like a better fit for Praetoria being the "gray area" world, but of course they'd already wrecked that anyway by just deciding that Praetoria was straight-up mustache-evil again. Hamidon "winning" wouldn't even necessarily mean the end of the world; the lore had already deeply hinted that humanity adopting a "hive-mind" kind of merger (like the Rikti and DE) was the only known defense against Battalion, it could have been Hamidon, not Tyrant, who ultimately sacrificed himself to cap off that plotline. (Though ultimately I didn't like either solution and would have preferred one that put that agency directly in the players' hands.)
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Mar 24, 2024 18:20
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usenet celeb 1992 posted:Absolutely nowhere, yeah. If it really was intended to cap off the Ouroboros letter-writer stuff, it answers exactly none of the many questions about how Requiem was aware of Ouroboros, what his greater intentions were, etc. Nor does it really do much to advance the game's recurring theme of mythological archetypes, other than to observe "hey check it out, ancient Roman Statesman and Sister Psyche, neat". The more interesting questions where that is concerned either just devolved into Mcguffin quests for ancient artifacts (like the Death of Statesman and Signature Story arcs) or "I'll tell you later" handwaving by Prometheus, that loving bastard. Oh, it's even more convoluted than that. The Letter Writer was always the Dream Doctor, which was loosely foreshadowed by some tidbits in the Midnight Club stuff, before finally being fully revealed all the way down the line in Dark Astoria. He hates Ourboros or more specifically Mender Silos because Silos went back in time to somehow change the metaphysical properties of a magical artifact, the Dagger of Jocas, thereby preventing DD from killing Rularuu outright and instead trapping him in the Shadow Shard. (This on its own is a complete and total retcon - the original Shadow Shard stuff, thin as it was, was pretty clear that the Midnight Squad intentionally created the Shadow Shard.) All of this bullshit was so that, ultimately, we could shoot Rularuu at the Battalion to blow them up.  Requiem meanwhile was foreshadowed as being the one loving up the timeline by the I11 trailer where Mender Silos literally says "the malevolence that causes the unraveling of the cosmos starts HERE" and then it it literally just zooms in on Requiem's face, lol. The only motivation they ever explained was that he was the one who went back to sabotage your character's origins with the Outbreak/Breakout mission. So I guess maybe he's not the singular cause of all the other crazy poo poo going on, but then who is?? Uhhhh...  Also whether or not the fact that he previously wrote letters to your character was meant as a red herring or is just a complete coincidence I have no idea.The 1:1 analogues of existing characters bug me so much. If it was just Imperious then hey, okay, similar leader dude with similar abilities drawing from the same general thing. Fine. Sister Psyche but she's the Oracle, ehhhh I'll let it slide because Sister Psyche has a lot of weird poo poo going on anyway. But when you get to Daedalus being literally Positron, radiation powers and all, I'm done. quote:I just liked the idea of meeting an ultrapowerful Hamidon who chose to return to (or at least occasionally manifest) in a human state and have a reasonable conversation to explain his perspective. It would just have felt like a better fit for Praetoria being the "gray area" world, but of course they'd already wrecked that anyway by just deciding that Praetoria was straight-up mustache-evil again. I dunno, that moment is kind of neat, but part of the problem has always been that Hamidon is eco-fascism taken to the absolute furthest extreme. He has no reasonable perspective to give. Though that also makes me think of how the overall premise of Praetoria kinda backslid over time. The implication at the start of Going Rogue was that Praetoria genuinely was the last bastion for humanity, take it or leave it. It gave the extreme measures of Cole's regime an explanation if not necessarily an excuse. But then over time that entire conceit was dismantled. Turns out people can survive outside of Praetoria, maybe not in absolute safety and luxury, but enough to get by. They were even playing with the idea of a Syndicate-controlled Neo Tokyo and that does sound cool, but does it really make sense in the setting? I still don't really understand the whole concept of First Ward being Praetoria Mk. 1 only to get self-destructed five seconds later and then they just started over with Praetoria. Like the whole thing was that according to propaganda the heroic Emperor Cole defeated the Hamidon and carved out Praetoria to protect humanity, then it turns out in actuality Hamidon let Cole go and they made some kind of bargain for Cole to prove humanity's worth, like it was an episode of Star Trek? But how that squares with First Ward, or Neo Tokyo, or, y'know, the entire Praetorian Regime being insane, psychotic, rotten to the core evil bastards I have no loving idea. And of course then turning around and trying to redeem any of said evil bastards pisses me off to no end. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 21:53
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Though I guess I'll also drop the caveat that my knowledge of the late-era stuff starts to blur pretty fast (I never did any iTrials past Keyes until Homecoming, forex) and they dropped all sorts of random stuff across years of lore AMAs so it's always possible I've missed something or I turned off my reading comprehension halfway through something that seemed too stupid to focus on. For instance, I don't remember Cole being on the chopping block to sacrifice himself. I remember Dream Doctor/Rularuu being assigned that role. I remember Lady Grey was going to declare that the world needs a Statesman to rally behind (  ) and stick Cole in the costume. But then of course Lady Grey was also going to turn out to be a Battalion agent, if not for the fact that even the other writers told Matt Miller that no, that was just too dumb to pull.Meanwhile the hive-mind thing rings zero bells. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 22:28
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the ultimate planned fate of Marcus Cole is at least easy to look up https://masterxmaster.fandom.com/wiki/Statesman
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Mar 24, 2024 22:58
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LordSaturn posted:the ultimate planned fate of Marcus Cole is at least easy to look up https://masterxmaster.fandom.com/wiki/Statesman Planned nothing. That was written by a CoH fan working at NCSoft during the development of MxM, as I understand it. (Though clearly informed by stuff they had already been spitballing.) That said, I actually by and large like that take on his story. If that's the direction the devs were going to take it, then cool, but I don't remember them ever clarifying that. It just sounded more like an open-ended redemption for somebody who should not loving get it, imo. Well, either that or it was supposed to be a scheme by Lady Grey, possibly reflecting how Vanguard was always supposed to be a little shady/ends justify the means-y. But to me it's vital that as per the MxM version of events, Cole fucks off at the end and is not actually truly redeemed, he just has one last heroic stand and then goes to be alone with his thoughts. Like a lot of this stuff there was foreshadowing - whatserface who gives uhhh Pandora's Box Part 1? in Atlas Park has a whole aside about how everyone's making GBS threads themselves because now that Statesman's dead, we're screwed! ...Completely ignoring the army of super gods running around that are just as good as Statesman. Because apparently they learned nothing from the years and years of people despising the character because they felt like Jack Emmert was lording him over them. Which never actually happened, but still, maybe don't make the story act like he's the single most important character, because especially at that point he wasn't even remotely a key player. Especially since they revealed that due to his method of gaining Incarnate powers he was permanently bound to the Well of the Furies and it could mind control him or some poo poo? God, that was ridiculous too. John Murdoch fucked around with this message at 23:44 on Mar 24, 2024 |
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Mar 24, 2024 23:31
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John Murdoch posted:And of course then turning around and trying to redeem any of said evil bastards pisses me off to no end. There was no way Matt would let a villain version of himself exist, so of course he'd get redeemed.
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Mar 25, 2024 00:03
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My primary concern is Cole, but yeah Anti-Matter was also pretty lame the whole way through only to go out heroically at the last possible minute. At least they weren't daft enough to try and redeem Mother Mayhem. I'll also give them props for making her iTrial reasonably effective at selling just how loving twisted she is in particular. Though it also reminds me of their amazing plan for Calvin Scott: He was actually just crazy all along. Then he becomes even more crazy. Then he gets tricked by space nazis and dies. 
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Mar 25, 2024 01:03
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Anti-Matter didn’t even really go out “heroically”. Just…spitefully, in a way that happened to be directed at a worse rear end in a top hat than him. Which was very entertaining mind you.
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Mar 25, 2024 06:52
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still wonder if the writers realised they wrote anti-matter as a huge incel or if they actually genuinely thought dominatrix was a master manipulator he was a victim to instead of falling for the world's most half-assed turncoat
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Mar 25, 2024 08:39
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I think Praetoria is pretty clear that Dominatrix is the furthest thing possible from a master manipulator, and is just kinda failing upwards and laterally.
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Mar 25, 2024 09:18
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I'm not sure the writers realized they wrote Lt. Harris as a weird incel, much less Anti-Matter.
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Mar 28, 2024 02:19
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There was always a huge disconnect between the sort of villainous content players wanted to see versus what the devs wanted to write. Players wanted to be building death rays or conquering Baltimore. The devs heard "more evil content" and decided that meant working for incels and poisoning orphans.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:14
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Ultimately part of the problem with trying to write content for villains is that in your typical story structure, the villain acts and the hero reacts. For blueside content this fits great with the general MMO structure of "getting jobs from random NPCs" but villains need to be able to pursue their own plans, which the game isn't really set up to support. The newspaper was meant to kind of represent this, where rather than doing the bidding of someone else you're out there doing things on your own initiative, but the paper jobs were all one-offs so they never built up to anything.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:24
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They could have just made villain contacts your minions who find opportunities for you. Instead they were dead set on making villain characters basically mercenaries doing jobs for more important people.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:29
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Ultimately part of the problem with trying to write content for villains is that in your typical story structure, the villain acts and the hero reacts. For blueside content this fits great with the general MMO structure of "getting jobs from random NPCs" but villains need to be able to pursue their own plans, which the game isn't really set up to support. The newspaper was meant to kind of represent this, where rather than doing the bidding of someone else you're out there doing things on your own initiative, but the paper jobs were all one-offs so they never built up to anything. This and also they were heavily constrained by the game engine itself. It would have been a lot of work to graft an entire Evil Genius base and minion management game onto the backbone of a running MMO like the players wanted. I mean, like I wanted. I wanted that.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:39
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Spanish Matlock posted:This and also they were heavily constrained by the game engine itself. It would have been a lot of work to graft an entire Evil Genius base and minion management game onto the backbone of a running MMO like the players wanted. I mean, like I wanted. I wanted that. Like I posted several years ago, this seems to have been the original design goal, but I guess they couldn't make it work: SimonChris posted:When CoV was first announced, the marketing material made it sound like the game would be all about building your secret lair and growing your organisation, while pursuing your evil plots. A lot of people were disappointed when it turned out that the lairs/bases were just guild halls, with no real effect on the game play.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:42
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Ultimately part of the problem with trying to write content for villains is that in your typical story structure, the villain acts and the hero reacts. For blueside content this fits great with the general MMO structure of "getting jobs from random NPCs" but villains need to be able to pursue their own plans, which the game isn't really set up to support. The newspaper was meant to kind of represent this, where rather than doing the bidding of someone else you're out there doing things on your own initiative, but the paper jobs were all one-offs so they never built up to anything. There's also the problem that Mr. Incredible brings up at the start of the Incredibles: no matter how many times he saves the world, it finds itself in peril again. This is great for the heroes side, but villians can't do that. If Cobra Commander beats GI Joe and conquers the world... that's it. Story over. The need for the story to return to the status quo kinda makes villians unable to make any real progress or achive any real success.
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Mar 28, 2024 21:42
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SimonChris posted:Like I posted several years ago, this seems to have been the original design goal, but I guess they couldn't make it work: Yeah for sure. It was a much dumber time for videogames though, especially MMOs. So many MMOs promised absolutely ridiculous things they could never possibly deliver on. Like realistically how would you even graft something like that onto City of Heroes in the first place?
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Mar 28, 2024 21:46
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Waffle Shake posted:There was always a huge disconnect between the sort of villainous content players wanted to see versus what the devs wanted to write. Players wanted to be building death rays or conquering Baltimore. The devs heard "more evil content" and decided that meant working for incels and poisoning orphans. This seems relevant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0NgUhEs1R4
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Mar 28, 2024 21:53
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The worst part about newspaper missions is that over half of them are literally copy cat crimes: "The Hellions stole a famous painting, go steal it from them"; "The Skulls kidnapped a scientist, go kidnap him from them". I would have loved to pick a work of art I wanted and steal it myself instead of waiting for the Freakshow to steal it first.
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Mar 28, 2024 22:15
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When are the devs going to develop a system that allows you dodge lasers as a villain in a provocative way???? You know, like the player base wants
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Mar 28, 2024 23:17
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The frustrating thing is that over time they started to chip away at figuring out techniques to make villain content more proactive but then it's like they refused to ever use them more than once. Even as early as I7 you had the Crey guy who tells you to go do something else and your character instantly goes "nah gently caress that, something went down in this Crey lab and I'm gonna go check it out". By the time you get to the Going Rogue era it should've been a lot easier to construct fun stories because you've got branching choices, phasing, all the stuff they did with Tips, and other dynamic scripting but by that point they were fully in the revolving door of world ending apocalypses phase so villains got gently caress all to work with.
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Mar 29, 2024 00:03
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Villain content was always a vicious cycle. Even WoW, that actually fully committed to a 50/50 split on content with their factions, still developed a bias over time. Villains got introduced a year and a half after people had their mains, were behind an expansion paywall, and had dramatically less content to do. So then you're stuck in that loop of less people want to play villains, so we can't justify making content for them, so less people play them-- At least now making alignment swaps painless means there's no excuses anymore.
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Mar 29, 2024 07:57
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I honestly would’ve been satisfied if, instead of a whole villain side, they just implemented the ability to customize your own rogue’s gallery that would show up in random missions and story arcs.
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Mar 29, 2024 09:06
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absolutely not, i wouldnt give half as much of a gently caress about the game if there were no playable villains. i think i might settle for just being able to do newspaper missions in paragon or police scanners in the rogue isles.
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Mar 29, 2024 11:21
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The Awesomesaurus posted:I honestly would’ve been satisfied if, instead of a whole villain side, they just implemented the ability to customize your own rogue’s gallery that would show up in random missions and story arcs. Champions Online has this and it was pretty fun. The rest of the game wasn't as good as CoH though.
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Mar 29, 2024 11:38
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Mayhem missions are what sold me on being a die hard villain on Live. Going to the Elemental Plane of Cops are just demolishing them by the hundreds is an incredible feat that was unrivaled until Payday 2 hit its stride.
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Mar 29, 2024 15:59
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SimonChris posted:Like I posted several years ago, this seems to have been the original design goal, but I guess they couldn't make it work: Way back during the development of the main game, there was a vague plan to have special missions for supergroups which build 'fame', which would unlock other missions and such.
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Mar 29, 2024 16:15
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I'd also bet the "your own minions" thing (as well as maybe some other plans for the villain system) was eventually turned into the Architect system once they worked out the initial kinks. Like, you could design/recruit your own minions and run them through missions of your own choice (from a set of choices, perhaps) in a more proactive manner. Ultimately I loved the more free-form Architect system but I could see how that could be a part of the core CoV system.
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Mar 29, 2024 16:30
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video game marketing in that era was always trying to describe very basic genre-standard gameplay in expansive, open-ended terms, to get you to imagine promises that are not being made, because that's what marketing does. they know nothing they said is legally actionable, every sentence is based on some feature that was actually delivered, and they're calibrated around that standard of truth. the only thing that seems to have tamped that down more recently is that gamers now send you death threats if they think you promised something and didn't deliver pretending there was some secret plan to build evil genius into CoV is just bonkers. stop that. check your carbon monoxide monitor. EDIT: man having different villain orgs would have been so sick tho. imagine if this game allowed origin to actually mean anything LordSaturn fucked around with this message at 18:18 on Mar 29, 2024 |
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Mar 29, 2024 17:18
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Early CoV development was a game very similar to what we got, it's just that Arachnos was originally one of several villain groups you would have potentially been working for instead of the only one. You were going to pick from a few different options at character creation like Arachnos, Crey, etc, and work your way up the ranks through whatever mission storylines they had. But that was a lot of additional work for little benefit so they just cut the rest and focused in on Arachnos exclusively. They were never doing anything fancier than what was done in the end with CoV, just different flavors of the same thing.
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Mar 29, 2024 17:44
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