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have you ever read nude though |
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Jul 10, 2019 17:38
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| # ? May 15, 2024 09:58 |
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cda posted:should I read Dune? Did it have themes? i enjoyed it but mostly in spite of the themes rather than because of them. like the bad guy is a big gross fat man whos a homosexual pedophile. the noble savage desert people hevaily coded as arab get white saviored by the offworld genius boy. also they say they don't rape women but also... after a man dies in ritual combat his wife and kids are given like property as a prize to the victor (??). also men walk like this , whereas women walk like this https://i.imgur.com/xQxnooW.png |
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Jul 10, 2019 17:48
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| i think i will never read Dune, i will read a different book i might like better and i would not have been able to come to this conclusion unless you had read it | |
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Jul 10, 2019 17:56
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| If you haven't read Harriet the Spy, I highly recommend it | |
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Jul 10, 2019 17:56
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hm....
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Jul 10, 2019 17:57
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dune glorifies an aristocratic rule over the common masses. the concept of an elite section of society born to rule over their lessers is the entire basis for herbert's world building (leading ultimately up to god emperor having a literal immortal superhuman enslaving all of humanity as a positive step). the core moral aspects of the story is completely contained within the logic of stratified society; for example the tyranny of the harkonnens is only conceptualized in contrast to the atreides' enlightened despotic rule. the basic fact that both represents dynastic overlordism for literal millennia is completely absent from any judgement within the books. |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:20
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take, for instance, duncan idaho. he is essentially the most capable agent in the entire storyverse. and yet, his main "attribute" is maintained as his undying faith to the neo-feudal system. he remains a pampered, content slave through the entirety of the saga, literally being brought back from death to serve his glorious masters. he's a mere asset for the future ambitions of the atreides family. |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:26
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Nosfereefer posted:dune glorifies an aristocratic rule over the common masses. the concept of an elite section of society born to rule over their lessers is the entire basis for herbert's world building (leading ultimately up to god emperor having a literal immortal superhuman enslaving all of humanity as a positive step). the core moral aspects of the story is completely contained within the logic of stratified society; for example the tyranny of the harkonnens is only conceptualized in contrast to the atreides' enlightened despotic rule. the basic fact that both represents dynastic overlordism for literal millennia is completely absent from any judgement within the books. pretty much the lion king then, is what youre saying ---------------- |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:29
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and the fremen; the entire sum of their positive characteristics only serve as a tool for the enlightened despot to achieve his masterplan. their entire galactic jihad merely turns them into paul and leto II's personal authority enforcers indefinitely, while their own native culture is purposely dismantled |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:30
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cda posted:pretty much the lion king then, is what youre saying yup, with more space hallucinogens |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:30
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Nosfereefer posted:dune glorifies an aristocratic rule over the common masses. the concept of an elite section of society born to rule over their lessers is the entire basis for herbert's world building (leading ultimately up to god emperor having a literal immortal superhuman enslaving all of humanity as a positive step). the core moral aspects of the story is completely contained within the logic of stratified society; for example the tyranny of the harkonnens is only conceptualized in contrast to the atreides' enlightened despotic rule. the basic fact that both represents dynastic overlordism for literal millennia is completely absent from any judgement within the books. yeah from the start i was wondering why exactly i was supposed to like the atreides bettern than the harkonnens and through the book it tries made them out to be more caring and sympathetic but then towards the end makes a point of highlighting paul's ruthlessness so like am i supposed to think his becomming emporor is a good thing or not? is he supposed to be deserving of dictatorial power because he's undergone hardship? it all seems a little fashy to me https://i.imgur.com/xQxnooW.png |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:37
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not to mention the whole eugenics thing
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Jul 10, 2019 19:38
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imho the fremen should have seized the planet for themselves, becoming the holders of the means of the most vital production of the entire space civilization. from there they would be able to press the navigator guild, the bene gesserit, and all the great houses into conceding to the galactic proletarian cause |
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Jul 10, 2019 19:56
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i agree with beer pal, well put: i enjoyed it in spite of the themes like the aesthetics are cool as hell and it's a fun read but even as like an 8th grader i was like "uh i'm supposed to sympathize from the start with the imperial colonizer people  "
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Jul 10, 2019 19:59
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and while we are on the subject of putting old man herbert in his place - what's the deal with shields and lasguns?? both are clearly established old time technology by the first book, yet seemingly noone thought of weaponizing their destructive reaction before like book four? e: maybe it was tied into that weird space chivalry thing going on like wrt dumb old fission bombs, so that inbred nonces could stab each other w/ knives while peasants were blasted down by the dozens Nosfereefer fucked around with this message at 20:12 on Jul 10, 2019 |
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Jul 10, 2019 20:10
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it's so he could write sword fights into a futuristic zelazny's excuse worked better imo (gunpowder simply "doesn't work" in one particular world so you gotta use old school stuff there)
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Jul 10, 2019 20:19
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alnilam posted:it's so he could write sword fights into a futuristic Chronicles of Amber. Primo poo poo right there. ---------------- |
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Jul 10, 2019 20:21
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I don't usually read sci-fi or fantasy books through the lens of "this is how the author thinks the world should be", more "this is how the world they built is". The most recent book I read, most of the characters are all pretty much irredemable twats, hero and villain alike, but it was a good story that I enjoyed quite a bit. Like, should the hero be a paragon of contemporary virtue? Why? Sometimes (most times?) the 'good guys' aren't very good at all, and that makes them interesting. I don't think a story where the characters and setting are an idealized mirror of how I think a society should behave would be particularly interesting. With Dune, yeah it's a story of imperialist conquest between two hereditary monarchist empires, one being cast as the baddies and the other as the good guys. And sure it's fine to say 'well neither is particularly desirable in the real world', but that's not what the story is about. It's like saying of the criminal underworld of a cyberpunk dystopia, "these guys aren't very nice at all, and I wouldn't invite any of them over for tea and biscuits". Well no, you wouldn't. Not once did Huburtus Bigend express concern for the plight of the working poor. But why would he? Thank you for reading my book report on Dune, which I last read probably 25 years ago, once, and never read any of the sequels. |
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Jul 10, 2019 20:37
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Dune and Beetlejuice take place in the same universe. Frank Herbert wanted the book's pages to be an inch taller so that he could include a line on each page updating the reader on what Beetlejuice was doing at that point in the story. Some fans (myself included) were able to meet Frank and get him to pencil in a few lines that he wanted to include in the finished book. Here's a bit from my copy: quote:Paul awoke to feel himself in the warmth of his bed - thinking . . . thinking. This world of Castle Caladan, without play or companions his own age, perhaps did not deserve sadness in farewell. Dr. Yueh, his teacher, had hinted that the faufreluches class system was not rigidly guarded on Arrakis. The planet sheltered people who lived at the desert edge without caid or bashar to command them: will-o'-the-sand people called Fremen, marked down on no census of the Imperial Regate.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:24
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Frank Herbet doesn't seem very positive about any of the protagonists in Dune and basically constantly uses the systems in the books as uniformly hosed up institutions that are so vast and ingrained that any attempts to jostle it can have disastrous consequences hence the Jihad that kills countless people, hence the feudalistic societies that are all about exploitation and resource control, he doesn't paint that aspect very positively either. I think claiming he endorses the views of his protagonists or Fremen, or the tyranny of the God Emperor is pretty heavily missing the point since he pretty flagrantly paints them as extremely problematic individuals and cultures in no uncertain terms. Also the whole "white savior" criticism is pretty much negated by the fact that Paul realizes that what he set in motion is beyond him and that the Fremen essentially wrested his image and ideals from him to create a massive, bloody religious conflict he sees no possible way of escaping, which is why he bounced and became a hermit. Paul is no savior, he's a catalyst for unimaginable slaughter in the name of religion. It's an inversion of that concept. The novels actively criticize martyrdom, religious figures as ideals, and pointless expansionism. It also calls into question our own constant attempts to foresee and predict the course of our species as something that can conveniently be broken down into steps, assessed, and executed. The great plan doesn't work. Dune's universe is for all intents and purposes a dystopic one where humanity has multiplied and developed to the point where controlling it is a practically impossible proposition, even the God Emperor's plans end up hosed and terrible for human beings individually. Nearly every element of the main novels is negative and highly pessimistic. It doesn't really glorify much of anything, it actively poo poo talks everything and Herbert used the characters and concepts in his book to examine basically how hosed we'd be in a far, far, future where we have spread unchecked with little to no regard for anything but increasing numbers, increasing power, and exploiting more resources, which ties directly into the environmental themes of the books. |
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Jul 10, 2019 21:36
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hmm thanks for your perspective i haven't read it in like 20 years so I'm probably wrong |
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Jul 10, 2019 21:46
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i mean i just read it and its p. clear that pauls existence is a huge gently caress you to the emperor, the bene geserit, the guild, and probably the noble houses as well they all had their little plans within plans and thosand year conspiracies that unfortunately fell apart because jessica was horny on main for leto and the whole thing comes about because everyone undermines their own part for personal gain - leto sends duncan to the fremen, kynes is working with the fremen, the emperor sends the sardukar, the guild takes bribes to not monitor the fremen, even harkonnen is wotking hos own angle to have feyd rautha and his magnificent sex pants made emperor. i think the bene geserit are the only ones who do not gently caress up but jessica certainly fucks their prophecy up by having a son and then training him in both bene geserit and mentat ways you are absolutely not supposed to see paul and the fremens victory as a victory for the atreides, in fact the final 3rd act of paul trying to prevent the atreides jihad he can forsee is exactly that. the final breaking of tradition is when he refuses to challenge stilgar granted i have read none of the other books but i am afraid because everyone says they ruin it the real hero of dune is weaponised autism |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:04
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Lil Swamp Booger Baby posted:Frank Herbet doesn't seem very positive about any of the protagonists in Dune and basically constantly uses the systems in the books as uniformly hosed up institutions that are so vast and ingrained that any attempts to jostle it can have disastrous consequences hence the Jihad that kills countless people, hence the feudalistic societies that are all about exploitation and resource control, he doesn't paint that aspect very positively either. maybe ill read another book or 2 after all https://i.imgur.com/xQxnooW.png |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:32
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should i read dune 2
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Jul 10, 2019 22:33
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ive been curious, was dune always intended to be a series or was the first book gonna be the whole thing?
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Jul 10, 2019 22:34
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beer pal posted:should i read dune 2 Dune 2: Hell on Earth is great. More demons and this time they've brought the fight home. Fight all the way to hell and defeat the Icon of Sin.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:39
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Jolo posted:Dune 2: Hell on Earth is great. More demons and this time they've brought the fight home. Fight all the way to hell and defeat the Icon of Sin. |
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Jul 10, 2019 22:44
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Yeah, it's hard to say. Though I don't think Frank Herbert had any delusions that the Atreides dynasty was a utopia, there is still an underpinning theme, that I actually find similar to as Asimov's Foundation series, that leadership with sufficient insight can reduce, but not eliminate, general strife by flipping a few switches on a giant cosmic trolley problem, and is indeed obligated to do so. Of course, in both cases said insight is provided by a fictional means of seeing the future with near perfect accuracy, but the net positive impact isn't really presented as debatable; Leto II insists on a couple of occasions that humanity would be extinct were it not for his intervention, and theoretically he would know. |
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Jul 10, 2019 23:02
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Been a while since I read Foundation, it was neat but it had a lot of scenes where opposing leaders just repeat "Ah, but I knew you were going to do that so I had this ready ahead of time!" at each other until one of them runs out of preparedness and surrenders. |
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Jul 10, 2019 23:10
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tbh dune is basically just a report on desert ecology thinly disguised as fiction. p much like tolkien wrote thousands of pages about dwarves just to publish his fake elven language e: or moby dick wrt whale penises and so on Nosfereefer fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 18:29
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dune 2 was the original rts, no joke |
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Jul 11, 2019 18:51
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dune is meh and has really weird pacing
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Jul 11, 2019 20:57
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much like my posting
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Jul 11, 2019 21:39
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im watching dune
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Jul 13, 2019 02:37
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its incredible how bad this movie is . who knew you could make a movie this bad.
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Jul 13, 2019 02:39
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Jul 13, 2019 02:41
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dammit wheres the crysknives. im like an hour in and i havent seen even a single crysknife.
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Jul 13, 2019 03:03
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google THIS posted:Agree on the first three thing, after that it's basically a spin-off of itself and it fast-forwards by literally millennia and loses basically all the wild untamed desert and danger and mystery and intrigue that made the series appealing to begin with. I stubbornly pushed through to about halfway through the sixth book thinking I might as well finish what I started, then I got distracted and I honestly haven't felt the urge to pick it back up. Dune was really good, but the rest get progressively worse until you get to God Emperor of Dune, which is like 600 pages of boring minutiae that take place over like 3 days of his life. Brian Herbert doesn't have the talent his father did, either. But if you're 6 books deep you already know all this. |
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Jul 13, 2019 07:11
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Jul 13, 2019 18:01
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| # ? May 15, 2024 09:58 |
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Really late but God Emperor of Dune is awesome if you like Scifi books that make you think about f'd up possibilities for very VERY distant futures. I think of that book every time I see a computerized anything in the trash. Duncan? Is that you? Also gotta make my usual pitch for Frank Herbert's The Desaadi Experiment and Whipping Star because the Bureau of Sabotage is my favorite organization from any scifi ever and I still wish it existed IRL just as bad as I did when I was fifteen. I would work there the rest of my life if I could. Alright I said my peace, back to raggin' on Brian Herbert for objectively sucking at everything.
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Jul 16, 2019 00:53
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