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frenton posted:Whoa, man. That's really deep. frenton posted:It's the murder cult and the lady who joins the cult. They're the bad guys. Yeah, in real life, it's bad and wrong to burn a guy to death. But it's a movie, and it's a metaphor, and Danny is the sympathetic character and Christian is the rear end in a top hat who deserves to die (by horror logic rules). I think it's a mistake to just view these things as a surface level series of events. It's not really the agreed upon conventions of the genre? I don't know how to better explain this. Like everything is to be given a realistic moral judgment except the murder. The murder is a vehicle for the judgment and is not literal. This is starting to become an incoherent ramble but I feel like the general gist is clear. Extreme judgment for fairly mundane and innocuous offenses is like a staple of horror movies. You can deserve to die just for being horny.
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Oct 16, 2019 06:19
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charles. posted:It's not supposed to be deep. It's fairly obvious. But you still somehow insist on taking the movie only at surface value. I'm not arguing about whether or not he deserved it. Clearly, no one in the movie, including Dani, deserved their fate. I'm arguing that not sympathizing with Dani isn't because of OMG MISOGYNY or whatever. I don't sympathize with her she's just as culpable in their lovely relationship and she ends up burning a guy to death as queen of a murder cult.
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Oct 16, 2019 06:29
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frenton posted:I'm not arguing about whether or not he deserved it. Clearly, no one in the movie, including Dani, deserved their fate. I'm arguing that not sympathizing with Dani isn't because of OMG MISOGYNY or whatever. I don't sympathize with her she's just as culpable in their lovely relationship and she ends up burning a guy to death as queen of a murder cult. Victims are as culpable as those who harm them?
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Oct 16, 2019 09:08
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Samovar posted:Victims are as culpable as those who harm them? Victim? It's a two way street, as made abundantly clear in the scene where both of their friends independently try and get them to break off their relationship and neither one is emotionally equipped to do so.
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Oct 16, 2019 09:16
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frenton posted:I'm not arguing about whether or not he deserved it. Clearly, no one in the movie, including Dani, deserved their fate. I'm arguing that not sympathizing with Dani isn't because of OMG MISOGYNY or whatever. I don't sympathize with her she's just as culpable in their lovely relationship and she ends up burning a guy to death as queen of a murder cult. Right okay so now it's not because she killed him you don't sympathize, it's because she's "just as culpable in their lovely relationship" (forget the murder dude you're still focusing on the wrong things in a horror). Very cool take! Yeah that's not what's made 'abundantly clear'. Christians selfishness, manipulation and cowardice is though! Christian has been stringing Dani along for a while, and the movie constantly is giving you glimpses of his inner machinations, making everything about himself, always steering the conversation into why everything is Dani's fault, and how much he clearly does not care about her (forgetting her birthday, not wanting to spend time with her). Dani on the other hand is never shown to be as equally lovely as Christian. She DOES genuinely care about him, about doing the right thing, is selfless to a fault. She is the victim of this dude's emotional abuse. If you're really that invested into your take, you should watch the director's cut. It's a lot less subtle about Christian being the bad guy (not that I think it was even subtle to begin with).
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Oct 16, 2019 12:18
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charles. posted:Right okay so now it's not because she killed him you don't sympathize, it's because she's "just as culpable in their lovely relationship" (forget the murder dude you're still focusing on the wrong things in a horror). Very cool take! Way to ignore the part where I said "and she ends up burning a guy to death as queen of a murder cult." And yeah, I'm sure Aster included the scene where Dani's friends tell her to break up with him and she refuses as a slice of life and it's not plot relevant at all. Very cool take!
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Oct 16, 2019 12:52
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frenton posted:she's just as culpable in their lovely relationship poster with no female friends spotted
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Oct 16, 2019 13:08
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its probably in there as an example of how abuse victims often struggle to leave abusive relationships especially one-sided ones where they care for and love their abuser despite (or as a direct result) of their abuse that his abusive behaviour is mundane and common (gaslighting, manipulation, selfishness), while her "abusive behaviour" (lol) is fantastical and outlandish (becoming queen of a spooky murder cult in sweden and burning him alive symbolically in a bear costume) is probably also a thing to consider lmao
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Oct 16, 2019 13:08
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frenton posted:Way to ignore the part where I said "and she ends up burning a guy to death as queen of a murder cult." And yeah, I'm sure Aster included the scene where Dani's friends tell her to break up with him and she refuses as a slice of life and it's not plot relevant at all. Very cool take! What scene are you talking about? Dani talks to one friend on the phone, and the friend lightly says Christian is being a bad boyfriend. Then Dani's family dies. Christian is the first person to be there for her after that trauma. (There's a heavy implication that Christian is on his way to break up with Dani, after being hyped up by his friends at the bar to break up with her.) It's not exactly the best head-space to evaluate the toxic relationship that she is already co-dependent on before, you know, the whole trauma thing.
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Oct 16, 2019 13:12
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the ending is a lot weaker if you think it's a guy getting his comeuppance. what makes the endings of both hereditary and midsommar so horrific is they're awful endings treated as triumphant.
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Oct 16, 2019 13:49
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applying a tedious hyper literalism to this movie is just such a boring read of this movie. There's no huge debate in the john wick thread if john wick is actually the bad one for doing so many murders and the real victim is iosef because his offence while bad was much smaller than wick's ultimate death count. the movie explicitly invites a generous reading for wick's narrative and centers him as a protagonist because fictional movies create a space to explore big emotions you couldn't do in the real world. John Wick becomes a great story about grief and all that. Its one of the great things about movies. It's asinine to think Midsommar genuinely calls for emotionally abusive boyfriends to be murdered in a literal way. I think there's some value to exploring if Dani has a good ending or not and there's some depth to the conversation there. But the movie is primarily about the emotional catharsis of shedding a lovely boyfriend. Nemesis Of Moles posted:that his abusive behaviour is mundane and common (gaslighting, manipulation, selfishness), while her "abusive behaviour" (lol) is fantastical and outlandish (becoming queen of a spooky murder cult in sweden and burning him alive symbolically in a bear costume) is probably also a thing to consider lmao right? its not only a movie but a horror movie. it invites a different standard of interpretation. its a whole genre thats built around "punishing" the characters in them for various sins to the point where you can have a movie that explicitly parodies them like cabin in the woods.
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Oct 16, 2019 13:57
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The "Dani is a bear-burning bitch" crowd also seems to conveniently forget that on top of the troubled family history and emotionally abusive relationship that left her especially vulnerable to cult manipulation, Dani was on drugs during that whole ending. I've been trying not to assume that anyone's take on the movie is sexist, but when they look at a drugged-up victim of trauma and abuse and decide that she's the real problem here, then yeah, that makes me question their perspective.
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Oct 16, 2019 14:57
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charles. posted:Very cool take! frenton posted:Very cool take! Look, let's get this straight: there are no very cool takes on this movie
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Oct 16, 2019 16:21
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it doesn't have to be a binary choice between he bad/she bad. they can both be victims.
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Oct 16, 2019 16:23
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deety posted:The "Dani is a bear-burning bitch" crowd also seems to conveniently forget that on top of the troubled family history and emotionally abusive relationship that left her especially vulnerable to cult manipulation, Dani was on drugs during that whole ending. I've been trying not to assume that anyone's take on the movie is sexist, but when they look at a drugged-up victim of trauma and abuse and decide that she's the real problem here, then yeah, that makes me question their perspective. Yeah. Team Christian always bring up how he's drugged and conveniently leave out how Dani is drugged too. The intentions are pretty clear
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Oct 16, 2019 23:07
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do you guys think you could perform sexually with a crowd of naked singing chicks watching while on shrooms??
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Oct 16, 2019 23:51
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Gay Horney posted:do you guys think you could perform sexually with a crowd of naked singing chicks watching while on shrooms?? I’m pretty sure this movie taught a few people about a kink they didn’t know they had. Grandma helping out and all.
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Oct 17, 2019 01:17
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Gay Horney posted:do you guys think you could perform sexually with a crowd of naked singing chicks watching while on shrooms?? People DON'T perform sexually without a choir of naked ladies singing? For shame.
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Oct 17, 2019 10:17
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Samovar posted:People DON'T perform sexually without a choir of naked ladies singing? For shame. It sucks getting everyone's calendars to line up though, drat Thanks for being a no-show Sharon, guess I'll eat all this hummus somebody insisted be there myself
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Oct 17, 2019 12:28
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Dani doesn't end up "queen of a murder cult", she's a drugged-up, emotionally-vulnerable woman who's spent a few days having her defenses systematically broken down by a charismatic cult who's poured love and acceptance over her. She doesn't yell "BURN THE FUCKER! DRINK HIS BLOOD! CRUSH HIS BONES!", she seems barely cognizant of what's even happening at the end. For that matter, we're not shown if she even joins the cult beyond seeing her traumatized face of despair turn into a smile at the end. But it doesn't spell out whether that's just relief after all she's been through or she's fully indoctrinated. I mean yeah, we can assume she's going to join the cult but you can draw your own conclusions there.
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Oct 17, 2019 12:56
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Paragon8 posted:It's asinine to think Midsommar genuinely calls for emotionally abusive boyfriends to be murdered in a literal way. I think there's some value to exploring if Dani has a good ending or not and there's some depth to the conversation there. But the movie is primarily about the emotional catharsis of shedding a lovely boyfriend. Personally it felt to me like she traded one lovely, manipulative relationship with Christian for a different lovely, manipulative relationship with the cult. King Vidiot posted:Dani doesn't end up "queen of a murder cult", she's a drugged-up, emotionally-vulnerable woman who's spent a few days having her defenses systematically broken down by a charismatic cult who's poured love and acceptance over her. She doesn't yell "BURN THE FUCKER! DRINK HIS BLOOD! CRUSH HIS BONES!", she seems barely cognizant of what's even happening at the end. For that matter, we're not shown if she even joins the cult beyond seeing her traumatized face of despair turn into a smile at the end. But it doesn't spell out whether that's just relief after all she's been through or she's fully indoctrinated. I mean yeah, we can assume she's going to join the cult but you can draw your own conclusions there. Unless they keep her shroomed up long enough for her brain to turn to mush and she buys in completely to the cult and doesn't consider the ramifications of anything that transpired in the movie, I don't see things ending well for her. raditts fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Oct 17, 2019 |
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Oct 17, 2019 18:07
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dani looks like a swede and has literally nothing to come home to. her family is dead and it's established that Christian was really one of her only outlets. burning Christian was I think meant to clearly show she's halga now.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:13
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Given all that stuff about managing their bloodlines, I've been assuming her future would mostly be about having a bunch of Harga babies, whether she's okay with that or not.
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Oct 17, 2019 19:35
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I compared the ending of this movie to The VVitch's ending and I think both are a traumatized, isolated, main character doing a terrible thing for instant peace of mind without thinking about the long term ramifications of what they've entered into. It's a happy ending in that we see the character get what they want/need but any assumption about the future and what will likely happen is just fan fiction. Turns out movies can have have ambiguity and black and white morality! Wow films!!
weekly font fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Oct 17, 2019 |
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Oct 17, 2019 20:20
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So I just saw the directors cut in a small local theatre. It's hosed up, but in a way I think I'll think about for awhile. One question though: When Christian is in the sex ritual thing there's a shot of what initially seems like an old lady watching him from the corner, lying down. Her lips look really swollen and her eyes look a bit red, kind of like how the guy wearing Mark's face looked. (I also initially wasn't sure whether it was a skin mask or whether they just cut out his tongue given the weird moaning, but settled on skin mask by the end of the film.) Any idea who she was?
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Oct 19, 2019 03:56
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Ravenfood posted:So I just saw the directors cut in a small local theatre. It's hosed up, but in a way I think I'll think about for awhile. One question though: When Christian is in the sex ritual thing there's a shot of what initially seems like an old lady watching him from the corner, lying down. Her lips look really swollen and her eyes look a bit red, kind of like how the guy wearing Mark's face looked. (I also initially wasn't sure whether it was a skin mask or whether they just cut out his tongue given the weird moaning, but settled on skin mask by the end of the film.) Any idea who she was? If I remember correctly thats the inbred prophet who makes their scriptures.
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Oct 19, 2019 04:03
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someone told me i should do mushrooms and watch this movie and i did just that and it was a perfect
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Oct 19, 2019 09:31
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numberoneposter posted:someone told me i should do mushrooms and watch this movie and i did just that and it was a perfect Did it make the trip-out scenes seem normal?
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Oct 19, 2019 11:08
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numberoneposter posted:someone told me i should do mushrooms and watch this movie and i did just that and it was a perfect As someone who did shrooms for the first time in about 15 years a few weeks ago and also got a little too stoned watching this last night, this sounds like a goddamn terrible idea.
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Oct 19, 2019 17:23
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Tripping in a confusing and unsafe environment is a personal nightmare of mine that this film rendered perfectly. I definitely don’t want to actually be on mushrooms as I experience it, but I’m glad you had a good time. In general, though, I don’t get the appeal of watching “trippy” movies on a hallucinogen. They’re already built to reproduce an altered state, so it kind of feels like a hat on a hat.
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Oct 20, 2019 08:51
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I think assuming that you can determine anyone's political or social ideology solely based on how they interpret a single movie is pretty broke-brained and weaponizing their response to the text is probably just a low key attempt to shut down an analysis you don't like. It's a lovely, bad faith move with a text as dense as this movie, IMO.
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Oct 20, 2019 19:54
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It's missing a plot point where the shrooms barely effect a character because they take common psychiatric meds, though. The character would feel, like so much better about life, though.
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Oct 21, 2019 04:57
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Xealot posted:Tripping in a confusing and unsafe environment is a personal nightmare of mine that this film rendered perfectly. I definitely don’t want to actually be on mushrooms as I experience it, but I’m glad you had a good time.
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Oct 22, 2019 00:06
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numberoneposter posted:I don't have bad trips. And sometimes, gently caress it, I wanna wear two hats.
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Oct 22, 2019 02:15
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a new study bible! posted:I think assuming that you can determine anyone's political or social ideology solely based on how they interpret a single movie is pretty broke-brained and weaponizing their response to the text is probably just a low key attempt to shut down an analysis you don't like. It's a lovely, bad faith move with a text as dense as this movie, IMO. I identified with the main character. Anyone who has experienced grief in their life will immediately click. After that it's a journey, maybe not a good one, but the payoff is worth it.
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Oct 22, 2019 07:58
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a new study bible! fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Oct 22, 2019 |
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Oct 22, 2019 23:33
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Great movie! Pretty much a story about people in a weird cult/relationship camp. Here's how I read the events of the movie: - Pelle thinks that the cult can help Christian and Dani's relationship, and they need new members, so he gets her to come along - The group witnesses an end-of-life ritual that is harrowing but understandable - The stress of witnessing the ritual get Simon and Connie into a really bad argument, and he leaves without her - Christopher starts to (maybe with the help of Pelle and others) really dislike his friends and girlfriend, and becomes more interested in joining the cult - Josh gets REALLY pissed off that Christian wants to take his thesis subject, so he pulls a "gently caress you got mine" on everyone, convinces Mark (who has gotten scared of that one guy and is no longer in the mood) the place is total BS, steals the book for unique material and the two leave together - Pelle probably told the cult what Dani has been through, so they exploit her vulnerable mental state and the May Queen trick to recruit her - Christian sets himself up for a bad trip, ends up screwing the cultist girl, then freaks out and hallucinates Josh's leg sticking out of the ground, and mistakes the corpse of the meal pig as simon. The cultists find him, he freaks hard and passes out - The ending sequence is Christian's introspective salvia dream of a Dani who is much happier without him
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Oct 24, 2019 01:39
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I saw it in theaters first and re-watched it but I was obnoxiously drunk the first time so my ability to notice details was hazy that time around. It's a super re-watchable movie since the camera work still makes it unsettling and disorienting even if you don't have the uncertainty. There's a lot of great details and (mostly only in hindsight) obvious foreshadowing. I like movies that have a lot to explore and interpret but resist having any clear answer so it's fun to debate with friends. Everything is also basically a metaphor so it opens itself to interesting interpretations like ^ that it's all just viewed through the lenses of a bad trip though the various perspectives didn't quite give me that feeling.
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Oct 31, 2019 17:17
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End of Shoelace posted:Great movie! Pretty much a story about people in a weird cult/relationship camp. Here's how I read the events of the movie: Interesting take, but then what is the scream that they all hear that's implied to be Connie's death scream, and who is it that's imagining Mark getting used as a halloween costume and Josh getting his brain bashed in
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Oct 31, 2019 22:03
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End of Shoelace posted:Great movie! Pretty much a story about people in a weird cult/relationship camp. Here's how I read the events of the movie: This is a creative interpretation that makes the movie completely boring and dull.
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Oct 31, 2019 23:17
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