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GoluboiOgon posted:bush got the same bump in approval ratings for invading iraq as putin did for invading crimea, and a much greater bump for the invasion of afganistan post 9/11. americans can be just as bloodthirsty as russians. Compare the 2 graphs. Note that Putin's approval rating has never fallen below 60%. And to this date, the majority of Russians largely support the invasion of Donbass: https://www.levada.ru/2019/06/11/donbass-vydacha-pasportov-i-budushhee/ (in Russian)  Green = Making Donbass "independent" Orange = Annexation by Russia. Dark solid line = Remain a vassal of Moscow. Note how support for invading Donbass (under 10% opposed with the exception of the most recent poll), even though Putin's approval rating has gone down in recent years. The numbers are even higher wrt Crimea (~85%). How is this not chauvinism? What anti-war movement in 2014? There has never been any kind opposition to foreign invasion in Russia. The fact that the consequences for protest (of any kind) are much more severe are product of Russian culture and society. I think it's a bit paternalistic to not let them take ownership for the state of their society and blame everything on the IMF and "neoliberals". And I don't remember any anti-war movement in 2008 when they invaded Georgia... Your timing on the invasion of Donbass is also off. The Russians started sending troops and weaponry in early 2014 shortly after invading Crimea. The big push happened in autumn 2014. So there was more than enough time for your hypothetical "war movement" (lol) to form. What exactly did Navalniy say wrt Donbass? Do you have the exact quote? Which source are you referring to? His debate with Girkin on Youtube? My impression from following him is that he is not really supportive of limiting Russian imperialism. The very idea of a second "referendum" just goes to show that even so called Russian liberals are chauvinistic and thuggish. They invaded and started an ethnic cleaning policy against Tartars and Ukrainians and Navalniy's proposal is to hold "referendum" with the Russian military making sure everyone votes "correctly." Why should there even be a referendum? Crimea is part of Ukraine. Will there be a second referendum in Chechnya too? What about South Ossetia? What about Abkhazia? What about Pridnestrovie? More referendums with Russian military manning the voting booths? Considering that Navalniy was previously directly involved in far-right Russian movements (something that's not well publicized in Western media), I think it's reasonable to be skeptical of him wrt Russian imperialism. And you're deluding yourself if you think anything is changing wrt protests in Russia. AFAIK the largest protest (not anti-war though) was on Bolotnaya in 2011-2013. I believe their peak numbers were 60k - that's nothing for compared to the population of Moscow. skeletors_condom has issued a correction as of 23:02 on Oct 13, 2019 |
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Oct 13, 2019 21:54
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skeletors_condom posted:Compare the 2 graphs. Note that Putin's approval rating has never fallen below 60%. Why would it? Putin isn't losing that conflict. Bush's approval dropped because by all metrics he was losing both wars. But anyway, keep going off on the perfidious asiatic ruskie.
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Oct 14, 2019 00:32
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this is a lot of words that could be covered by the sentence "there are the same type of lovely people in every country"
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Oct 14, 2019 02:21
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We're a couple pages away from skeletons condom bringing out the skull shape graphs
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Oct 14, 2019 02:29
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Give all of east Ukraine to Russia imo It's rightfully theirs and the polls show people like it!
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Oct 14, 2019 02:33
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I'm sorry but people in eastern Ukraine are only 56% chauvinist and do not meet the required levels to join Russia
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Oct 14, 2019 02:35
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drat, better luck next quarter!
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Oct 14, 2019 02:36
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i live somewhere with a lot of ukrainians. a lot of yuks and chuks. And let me tell you, they're the most vile reactionary force in the western world. they must be destroyed by all means necessary and available
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Oct 14, 2019 03:13
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ur in my world now posted:this is a lot of words that could be covered by the sentence "there are the same type of lovely people in every country" That's one way to look at it. And another one is to be critical and to look at facts and not just make up lovely excuses for dumb behaviour.
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Oct 14, 2019 03:46
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skeletors_condom posted:That's one way to look at it. And another one is to be critical and to look at facts and not just make up lovely excuses for dumb behaviour. Shut up nazi
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Oct 14, 2019 03:48
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Saying Russians have a chauvinistic culture or whatever dumb poo poo is making up lovely excuses for dumb behaviour.
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Oct 14, 2019 04:55
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im still staring in dumb shock that this guy thinks iraq is an argument against the idea that american culture is militarily chauvinist like how do you look at what this countrys done since then or our last election where donald trump was somehow the anti interventionist candidate and conclude that we are peaceniks at heart
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Oct 14, 2019 09:01
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Frijolero posted:Give all of east Ukraine to Russia imo nationalists are categorically incapable of writing off their losses and moving on. if they really want Ukraine to be an EU country where everyone has to speak Ukrainian, then they should just accept that they’re never getting Crimea or the Donbass back. recognize the breakaway republics and let them be Russia’s problem. just call their bluff. what made the Donbass valuable in the first place was the legacy industrial base from Soviet development, but the Russians already cannibalized it and sold it all off. why fight to keep a bunch of people in Ukraine that don’t want to be Ukrainian, and you can’t win anyway?
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Oct 14, 2019 09:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:nationalists are categorically incapable of writing off their losses and moving on. if they really want Ukraine to be an EU country where everyone has to speak Ukrainian, then they should just accept that they’re never getting Crimea or the Donbass back. recognize the breakaway republics and let them be Russia’s problem. just call their bluff. Btw a large percentage of the Ukrainian population still speaks Russian even outside of Crimea and Donbass,. A big deal with the language laws of the previous government is that they effectively discriminated against a large percentage of the public who were ethnically Ukrainian but spoke Russian.
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Oct 14, 2019 14:32
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Ardennes posted:Btw a large percentage of the Ukrainian population still speaks Russian even outside of Crimea and Donbass,. A big deal with the language laws of the previous government is that they effectively discriminated against a large percentage of the public who were ethnically Ukrainian but spoke Russian. Practically everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian. Even the people who want to make it illegal.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:02
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Frijolero posted:Give all of Ukraine to Russia imo ftfy
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Oct 14, 2019 15:03
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:nationalists are categorically incapable of writing off their losses and moving on. if they really want Ukraine to be an EU country where everyone has to speak Ukrainian, then they should just accept that they’re never getting Crimea or the Donbass back. recognize the breakaway republics and let them be Russia’s problem. just call their bluff. There is no real issue with speaking Russian in Donass or the rest of Ukraine. Suggesting otherwise is borlerline comical. The whole language issue is just Russian propaganda. The majority of Donbass wants to be part of Ukraine. Over a million people were forced to leave following the Russians invasion (including the people who speak Russian). They lost their homes, savings and pretty much everything specifically because Russian wanted to "help" Russian speakers. Ardennes posted:Btw a large percentage of the Ukrainian population still speaks Russian even outside of Crimea and Donbass,. A big deal with the language laws of the previous government is that they effectively discriminated against a large percentage of the public who were ethnically Ukrainian but spoke Russian. You're just making poo poo up. I say this because I only speak Russian in Ukraine and there is no discrimination.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:09
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skeletors_condom posted:There is no real issue with speaking Russian in Donass or the rest of Ukraine. Suggesting otherwise is borlerline comical. The whole language issue is just Russian propaganda. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langu...ate_language%22 quote:Hungarian Foreign Minister Péter Szijjártó said the law was "unacceptable" and part of an "anti-Hungarian policy" yeah "russian propaganda" lol
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Oct 14, 2019 15:13
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skeletors_condom posted:There is no real issue with speaking Russian in Donass or the rest of Ukraine. Suggesting otherwise is borlerline comical. The whole language issue is just Russian propaganda. this is absolutely wrong. not that long ago, i heard one ukrainian tell another that there was too much russian in her ukrainian. people were attacking zelensky during the election for speaking russian and not ukrainian in his comedy shows. most ukrainians don't care, especially in places like odessa or kyiv where russian speakers are plentiful, but the nationalists care very much about 'purifying' the ukrainian language.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:18
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is this like in Venezuela when they say there is no racism. like my dude if you are at war with someone there is going to be hate based on nationality, especially for long term conflicts
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Oct 14, 2019 15:19
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But you've never been to Ukraine. And you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian. How would you know? I don't speak Ukrainian and it's not an issue at all. As I said, it's comical to suggest otherwise. The language policy is necessary due to the fact that Ukraine at war with Russia. You'll note that Ukrainian is banned in Crimea and the occupied part of Donbass. Latvia doesn't provide full citizenship to people who can't pass the a Latvian language exam. That's smart because they understand the inherent danger associated with being a neighbor of hosed up country like Russia.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:20
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GoluboiOgon posted:this is absolutely wrong. not that long ago, i heard one ukrainian tell another that there was too much russian in her ukrainian. people were attacking zelensky during the election for speaking russian and not ukrainian in his comedy shows. most ukrainians don't care, especially in places like odessa or kyiv where russian speakers are plentiful, but the nationalists care very much about 'purifying' the ukrainian language. That hardly qualifies as discrimination. The reality of the matter is that it's not a big deal if you speak Russian as a regular person. I only speak Russian and it's never an issue even among "nationalists" (because they understand that I support Ukraine). The criticism of Zelenskyy are fair considering his political position. And how is criticism a form of discrimination? skeletors_condom has issued a correction as of 15:24 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 15:21
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thank you skeletors condom by bringing what dnd would call life into this thread
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Oct 14, 2019 15:23
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skeletors_condom posted:The language policy is necessary due to the fact that Ukraine at war with Russia. You'll note that Ukrainian is banned in Crimea and the occupied part of Donbass. yes, it is necessary to have a unified culture in order to drive back the russian hordes. only by removing those not like us can our sacred country be saved! also, i'm not a fascist.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:25
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oh so you are a straight up nationalist. i mean it was always there but you gonna come out that that openly.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:26
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skeletors_condom posted:But you've never been to Ukraine. And you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian. How would you know? It's racist to have an official language because the law should be equally accessible to anyone. If you pass a law that makes one language the official language, then anyone who doesn't understand it will be persecuted by the state. It doesn't matter how "smart" it is to pass language requirements for citizenship in the context of nation-states, because nation-states are loving stupid and racist. Inherently.
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Oct 14, 2019 15:28
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Practically everyone in Ukraine speaks Russian. Even the people who want to make it illegal. There are people in Western Ukraine who's first language is Ukrainian and they use it in daily life, but probably also understand Russian and plenty of people in between. Btw, I have been to Ukraine, Western Ukraine in fact. (I actually don't think Ukrainian and Russian culture are really that different (I wouldn't say they are the same either) and if anything there is plenty of overlap between the two. There are plenty of Ukrainians in Moscow as well.) Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's racist to have an official language because the law should be equally accessible to anyone. If you pass a law that makes one language the official language, then anyone who doesn't understand it will be persecuted by the state. It doesn't matter how "smart" it is to pass language requirements for citizenship in the context of nation-states, because nation-states are loving stupid and racist. Inherently. It is even more disastrous in a country like Ukraine, Latvia or Turkey since in all three, the "offical" language is far from universal. skeletors_condom posted:You're just making poo poo up. I say this because I only speak Russian in Ukraine and there is no discrimination. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/25/ukraine-passes-law-against-russian-language-official-settings/ quote:The law stipulates that people acting in most official capacities speak in Ukrainian, including employees the state and communications sectors, medical and educational institutions and public transport. This is just the latest in a trend (btw this is before Zelensky took office). Also, there has been previous restrictions of the use of Russian in the media and in educational settings. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 15:41 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 15:32
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But no one is "prosecuted" by the state. Can someone provide IRL examples of discrimination, not wikipedia pages? Criticism of a president (or a presidential candidate) is normal part of democratic governance. Ardennes posted:
And whats wrong with that? I don't speak Ukrainian (Russian/English are my "native" languages), I see no issues with this. If you explain your situation, you can get by in government institutions. It's almost as if no one here has ever been to a Ukrainian government office. A far bigger problem is corruption and inefficiency. Language is not an issue. Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's racist to have an official language because the law should be equally accessible to anyone. If you pass a law that makes one language the official language, then anyone who doesn't understand it will be persecuted by the state. It doesn't matter how "smart" it is to pass language requirements for citizenship in the context of nation-states, because nation-states are loving stupid and racist. Inherently. The overwhelming majority of Russian-speaking Ukrainians know Ukrainian (I am an exception in that sense). So how is the law not accessible to everyone? Nation states are a reality, whether you like it or not. Same with geopolitics. It's a bit naive to just ignore these concepts as if they don't exist. skeletors_condom has issued a correction as of 16:10 on Oct 14, 2019 |
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Oct 14, 2019 16:07
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CharlestheHammer posted:oh so you are a straight up nationalist. I am not a nationalist. I don't think "Ukraine is #1!" or whatever. It's a country/culture with it's strengths and weaknesses. However, I am also not naive and ignorant of Russia's history of imperialism. Dealing with the Russians requires a certain approach. Pipe dreams about "no nations" and how 99.9% of Russia hates Putin and thinking that they are totally not supportive of imperialism and killing foreigners (in a genuine and heartfelt way) is ridiculous. You guys pretend to care about "discrimination," and yet you're totally OK with the Russians invading their neighbours. Something does not compute.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:16
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Truly a weakness inherent in the thread culture
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Oct 14, 2019 16:22
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skeletors_condom posted:The overwhelming majority of Russian-speaking Ukrainians know Ukrainian (I am an exception in that sense). So how is the law not accessible to everyone? how is the law not accessible to everyone if it's only inaccessible to a minority of people 
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Oct 14, 2019 16:30
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:how is the law not accessible to everyone if it's only inaccessible to a minority of people As I said, the vast majority of Russian-speaking Ukrainians (we are talking above 95%, if not more) know Ukrainian. So there is no problem. Different countries have different rules on language. It's not "racist" to require government service to be conducted in the national language when practically everyone in the country speaks the language. This seems like a no brainier to me. Have you ever been outside of your home country?
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Oct 14, 2019 16:35
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skeletors_condom posted:As I said, the vast majority of Russian-speaking Ukrainians (we are talking above 95%, if not more) know Ukrainian. So there is no problem. COROLLARY: A MINORITY DOES NOT.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:37
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:COROLLARY: A MINORITY DOES NOT. But that's not the case. Everyone in Donbass (and Crimea for that matter) knows Ukrainian. Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:42
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Oh? So it's 100%, not 95%? It's whatever you need it to be, you mean, because really you don't count those people even if they do exist.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:44
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:Oh? So it's 100%, not 95%? It's whatever you need it to be, you mean, because really you don't count those people even if they do exist. I said above 95%, and I am being super conservative because I don't want to write 100%. The point is, this is a none issue. And I am telling you this as person who speaks Russian and whose Ukrainian isn't that great. You do understand that Ukrainian is/was taught in Russian-language schools, right?
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Oct 14, 2019 16:53
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skeletors_condom posted:The overwhelming majority of Russian-speaking Ukrainians know Ukrainian (I am an exception in that sense). So how is the law not accessible to everyone? If you can't read Ukrainian then you can't understand the law. It's very straightforward. Also, congrats on identifying the true core issue - which is that nation-states are real. You're very perceptive.
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Oct 14, 2019 16:56
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you can't read Ukrainian then you can't understand the law. It's very straightforward. And pretty much everyone can read Ukrainian. While my Ukrainian is not good enough to deal with legal documents, it's not a problem. Plus, my situation is unique. Everyone I know in Donbass (I have extensive connection with the region) can read Ukrainian legal documents. It's not an issue. How can you justify invasions, murder of 14K people, displacement of millions over something that is a none-issue? That's what when I say you're eating Putin's propaganda. It's not normal to ruin two regions and millions of lives over a lie. So why make up some pipe-dreams about how the world would be without nations and so on. This will not happen in our lifetime. What's you point about "nations states being racist?" What are you trying to say?
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Oct 14, 2019 17:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:If you can't read Ukrainian then you can't understand the law. It's very straightforward. I mean it seems like requiring the legal code of a country to be fully translated into every single language is bar that literally nowhere passes (even beyond legalese making the law into something you need specific training to comprehend even if you ostensibly speak the language)
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Oct 14, 2019 17:11
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This is a good thread and I am grateful for it
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Oct 14, 2019 20:08
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