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MonsieurChoc posted:Some weirdo Jewish libertarian went on a rant about how the Palestinians are actually descended from the Samaritans and as such completely unrelated to the Jews who lived there in the first century. Which is ridiculous because there are still a few Samaritans. Who are basically Jewish in most ways but differ on aspects of worship, including the need for a temple and where the place of worship should be. Palestinians are mostly the descendants of converts to Christianity and Islam, who returned after the several Roman explusions and also some mixing with various other Semitic peoples like Nabateans who lived in the area, from my understanding. Ashkenazi and Sephardi appear to be the descendants of the people who never came back and Mizrahi are the descendants of the people who never converted.
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Aug 18, 2019 05:11
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Were almost ceetainly limited, we have no good evidnce that they existed anywhere else and positing trans-oceanic voyages with such limited evidence is a bit dicey. They didn't even exist in the Hohokam or Chaco cultures, which had extensive contact with chili using Mesoamerican civilizations. Even accounting for issues of preservation, the distribution of known cultivars and artistic representations prior to the Spanish invasions suggests they went no further than the Carribbean prior for the late 1490s and for some reason, never into North America. Direct contact between what is now the US Southwest and the Shaft Tomb/Purépecha cultures, and possibly the Maya and Teotihuacan as well is an interesting topic. It's not even argued against in non-quack circles anymore as the physical evidence is overwhelming. Copper bells chemically sourced to West México are found across the region, with major concentrations in Hohokam sites like Snaketown, AZ U:9:1 (ASM) and Gatlin, and at Chaco Regional System Great Houses, notably Pueblo Bonito. After CE 1250 they were heavily concentrated at Paquimé, the largest site and likely only city of the Casas Grandes culture of Chihuahua, Sonora and extreme Southwest New Mexico/Southeast Arizona. There are also the macaws, include scarlet and military macaws, which were bred at Paquimé, but prior to CE 1250 were not bred in the region. Wupatki, a village and trading center near modern Flagstaff, Arizona, had a large amount, more than even Chaco Canyon as a whole. In lesser amounts you find mosaic pyrite mirrors, pseudo-cloisonné and very rare import ceramics. Also cacao at Chaco Canyon, and seemingly no where else, drank from vessels produced near modern Zuni, imported to Chaco Canyon and identical in form to Maya cacao cups. Then there are the cultural imports, such as the ballcourts and ballgame practiced by the Hohokam, as well as Hohokam courtyard group and plaza site plans, and the Classic Period platform mounds (adopted from the pyramids and small platform shrines of Mesoamerica). Mesoamerican-style collonades are found at Chaco Canyon and Paquimé as well. And lots of shared iconography, including local Goggle-Eyed figures and Feathered and Horned Serpents. Hohokam people also make shell jewelry very similar to West Mexican examples. Even the adobe houses of the Classic Period Hohokam have some similarity to Mesoamerican examples. Ceramics may also have diffused north with beans, though not directly from Mesoamerica, and maize and squash did the same earlier. Moving north to south, you see less going to Mesoamerica, but there is a known Middle Sacaton 1 Red-on-Buff jar (CE 1030-1080) from near La Quemada on the northern edge of Mesoamerica (which has a deified ancestor and mortuary practice of charnel rooms that slowly creeps north with some alterations and is found at Paquimé in a modified form about 300 years later) and there are rare, rare finds of New Mexico turquoise in Mesoamerican sites. So clearly there was big, giant interaction sphere and cultural world that extended from what is now the area around the San Juan Mountains in Colorado on the north, all the way south to Yucatan, and from the Pacific Coast to the start of the Southern Plains. There has been tendencies in the past to put a driving emphasis on one culture or another, but it more seems to be interaction, not domination and sharing of ideas over a broad area.
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Aug 19, 2019 03:48
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Real hurthling! posted:speaking of macaws did you know the inca used to pluck them and rub their skin with frog toxins to stimulate the growth of unnaturally colored feathers? wild stuff Tawantinsuyu was a fascinating place, their economy is incredibly interesting. But I never knew they did that with macaws. What little I read of them focused on ceramic design styles and metallurgy, since those are two of my research interests. Macaws in the US Southwest are fascinating as well, they appear first in large numbers at Pueblo Bonito in Chaco Canyon, tied to the emergence of the chiefdom (I feel it's a religious specialist run state that is very weak, but a state none the less). Watson et al. (2015) found some good evidence that they show up right at the start of Pueblo II (CE 900-975) rather than the peak of the Chaco state in Late Pueblo II (the Classic Bonito Phase of the Chaco Regional System, around CE 1040/1050) and based on earlier developments in Pueblo I in the Mesa Verde region (I've worked at one of these sites, and they are many), it seems to be related to an emergent elite seeking symbols of power. This contrasts with the Mimbres, who seem to use them in more egalitarian rituals, and the Hohokam who never really have many macaws at all, despite being the closest to the sources. I could go on and on about what seems to be a populist revolt in Pueblo III, the emergence of modern Pueblo ideas, Chaco state terrorism and how it all led to the collapse of the state, but it doesn't really tie into the macaws. What is interesting about the early macaws is that recent genetic work by George et al. (2018) suggests that there was trade south, but also an early breeding center, earlier and further north than Paquimé. My guess would be somewhere in the Mimbres region. They depict what may be macaw husbandry and breeding on Mimbres Classic Style III bowls (CE 1000-1130) and also the Mimbres people have cultural and seeming genetic ties to the later occupants of Paquimé. So it makes some sense that Mimbres people may have been the early breeders. Another likely possibility is that it was actually south of Paquimé, in an incredibly poorly understood region between the edge of the "Southwestern" cultures and Mesoamerica. It is sometimes called the Gran Chichimeca and to this day has had almost no work done on it. References Watson et al. 2015 https://www.pnas.org/content/112/27/8238 George et al. 2018 https://www.pnas.org/content/115/35/8740
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Aug 19, 2019 06:47
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twoday posted:I’m not positing any trans-oceanic journey, I think it could have been growing in Eurasia or Africa too. It completely slipped my mind about birds until last night. Bird-dispersal spread wild examples, so it could have spread domestic ones to Africa easily. It's not chilis, but the nene of Hawaii is descended from a breeding pair of Canadian geese that got blown of course, and there is the possible seal based transmission of TB to the Americas as other examples. Though if I may be honest, I find the methodology of the examination of the specimen too lacking in rigor, and they did not appear to open up the possibility of mixed contexts at all, which to be honest would have to be considered at Lund. If the specimens could be dated directly they also should have tried that, though it seems thet weren't suitable. They do appear to have dated organic material from the context, but it in a case like this the conservative choice would be to assume disturbance if indicated, try to directly date and move from there, which isn't mentioned. They also should attempt to find residue of Capiscum spp. on ceramics and other wares, which has been done in Mesoamerica. Given the uncertain Classic Period writing (which could apply to plants outside Capiscum spp., they are incredibly vague) they should also look for Capiscum spp. residue in finds of that era, and while I know such tests have been done on residue, never once have I found a reference to a find of Capiscum spp., just what one would expect to find. I hate to be the stodgey academic, but giant claims require giant proof, and while you would think direct physical samples would be it, the context and methodology are simply too suspect for me to accept.
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Aug 19, 2019 21:07
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Torpor posted:I just checked out hano Arizona on google maps. that looks unique but I have never ever heard of it; a town perched on a tiny narrow Mesa. Hano exists where it does because of the Spanish. It was founded by Tewa refugees from the northern Rio Grande who fled there after the Pueblo Revolt and over time mingled with the Hopi population to become te Hopi-Tewa, a people with aspects of both Hopi and Tewa in their culture. The other villages of the Hopi Mesas vary in age, Oraibi is the oldest, founded around CE 1000 and inhabited ever since, the others are founded between then and CE 1300, save Hano and Kykotsmovi, the former founded in the late 1600s, the latter in 1906. You see mesa villages in defensible locations become a thing across the Pueblo world around CE 1150, because there is a marked increase in warfare and fear of warfare. The Chaco Regional System is reorganizing in the north, around Aztec, Salmon and other Great Houses in the Mesa Verde region, and they appear to be using violence to extract tribute to support the elite, rather than the old model of religious devotion and pilgrimage to the sacred Chaco Canyon. This is when you get most of the famous Mesa Verde and Kayenta cliff dwellings, large aggregated villages in Tusayan, Little Colorado, Cibola and Puerco River Valley peoples and also some early large villages such as Yucca House and Yellowjacket in the Montezuma Valley. To the west in canyon country of east Utah, and around Zuni and Hopi the mesa edge villages increase in number. There are some very, very, very large villages in the Mesa Verde region, that grow rapidly starting around CE 1240. This is a fascinating story. Prior to that the settlement pattern is small farmsteads of 3 to 12 rooms, spaced 2 to 7km apart and often clustered around Great Kivas or Great Houses. These were quite vulnerable to attack, and starting around CE 1150 you see attacks on these type of sites, sometimes with cannibalism and desecration of human remains in religious structures. At this same time, people aren't doing as much in Chaco Canyon anymore and the center is moving north. Now, Chaco Canyon seems to have had a small resident population of elites in the Great Houses, attached artisans in small sites, and some limited agriculture. But when maize remains from the area are tested, they have isotopes present suggesting they are grown in the Chuska Mountains, Mesa Verde or Zuni areas. Ceramics also fit this pattern, not just decorated examples, but everyday storage and cooking pots. In fact, turquoise jewelry seems to be the one big thing people in the canyon are doing. These objects come in during festivals and feasts, and then don't leave. They go into offerings in Great Houses or trash middens. But around CE 1150 drought hits, farmers cannot make the trips or support religious elites anymore, and why should they, the rituals are failing. So they stop as much devotion. My model is that a few people, willing to do violence, stay in the system, and the elite, after about 250 years of control, turn to using violence and their enforcers to strike fear and try to get buyback into the system. It works for a while, especially in the north. New Great Houses are founded like Aztec, and old ones like Mitchell Springs Pueblo A and Lowry see new growth and patterns similar to the canyon. People who seem not to want to engage this system move to cliff dwellings on Mesa Verde, or into large villages like Los Gigantes in the El Morro Valley. Other people engage with the new elite, the Aztec Regional System (no relation to the Nahua Aztecs of Mesoamerica). But by CE 1240 people seem tired of this setup and the raids. Mitchell Springs Pueblo A is the big piece of evidence for this hypothesis. Around that time the Great House, which has 30-odd rooms, but never more than 3 habitation rooms (the rest are storage rooms) is attacked. It is burnt, explodes from the heat and the remaining elite living in Pueblo A and adjacent Great Houses are found thrown into an old Great Kiva. They were burnt, cooked and eaten. They are men, women and children. This matches patterns at small house, non-elite sites. It appears someone, likely farmers, launched an uprising. Right after this, almost all the small house sites are abandoned. Yucca House and Yellowjacket both grow in size, and a TON of new, very large, canyon-side defensible villages are founded. These include Sand Canyon Pueblo, Goodman Point Pueblo and many others. For the next 40 years, these sites grow and persist, seeming to fear attack. Drought is gripping the area, violence not directed by an elite is increasing, and the likely allies of Mitchell Springs, living at Aztec West and East, and seemingly Salmon, are a few days march away and could attack. So people live in crowded sites, develop new kiva-based rituals and village-level integration. Some interesting D-shaped structures and Great Kivas, which formerly seem to have been associated with Chaco elites become democratized at sites like Sand Canyon. Eventually, warfare and social balkanization become too great, buffers to famine seem to collapse, the large sites are reduced to a few holdout people and massacres occur as the last residents not to leave the region are killed. This is a general model and needs to be tested further, but it fits the evidence in the Mesa Verde and Northern San Juan regions. After is the Great Migration, where not only those regions, but also the Kayenta and Chuska regions, where there is far less evidence for war and populist uprising (Kayenta people never buy into Chaco at any time), empty out. People go everywhere, into the Rio Grande where the Tewa Pueblos are founded, down to Acoma and Zuni, across to the edge of the Southern Plains in the Salinas District, into the bootheel of New Mexico around the Upper Gila, up to the Safford Basin in east Arizona, further west to the San Pedro River Valley, into the Tonto Basin where Hohokam people live, into the Sinagua communities of the Verde Valley, the White Mountains of Arizona, the Little Colorado River Valley and the Hopi Mesas. Out of this emerge the modern Katsina religions and also the Salado Horizon, which is an inclusive populist ideology that emerges in the White Mountains, marked by a distinct series of polychrome ceramics. Whatever the ideology represents it is able to exist alongside the Kiva-and-Plaza religious systems of the Pueblos, the Platform Mounds of the Hohokam, and the Ballcourt-Plaza-Platform Mound complex of Casas Grandes. It crosscuts clear ethnic and ideological differnences and seems to be organized at the household level. It also clearly relates to a Katsinam-related iconographic complex found on Jeddito Yellow Ware, Zuni Glaze Ware, Rio Grande Glaze Ware, White Mountain Red Ware and Rio Grande White Ware ceramics. But it also occurs at Hohokam, where they do their own thing involving platform mounds, plazas, slipped red wares without painted designs and other things that are more Mesoamerican. Eventually everyone ends up either at Hopi, Zuni, Acoma, along the Rio Grande, along the San Pedro, in the Tucson Basin, along the Middle Gila River or over on the Lower Colorado River near Yuma. And that is what the Spanish enter into and invade.
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Aug 20, 2019 00:48
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Torpor posted:wait the peasants attacked the ruling people’s fancy Pueblo-manor houses and threw them in the church-kivas and torched the place? this sounds like a very cspam story. It is one possibility. The other is as the environment declined, people just started engaging in greater warfare. That is the seeming pattern in other regions, the Mesa Verde data is just, different, in some ways. This model could be revised a lot if work at some other late Great Houses in the area, or even the other 5 Great Houses at Mitchell Springs finds something different. All we know for sure is there is a marked increase in violence in Pueblo III as the Chaco Regional System declines and reorganizes, it starts against small farmsteads, moves to Great Houses and ends at large villages. It could be Mitchell Springs Pueblo A was attacked by people from Aztec even, it's just that the patterns that come after the tree-ring and radiocarbon dated end of Pueblo A are well, interesting. It really does seem to mark a turning point in regional organization on the landscape and an even greater concern with defense than Early Pueblo III. The old "drought only" model has been called into question on the basis of there being an environment to sustain people past CE 1280, but everyone Pueblo is gone by then and it's not the Ute and Diné that pushed them to leave. Something social happened. What is still open.
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Aug 20, 2019 01:35
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The problem with that hypothesis is the short duration of occupation at L'Anse Aux Meadows (about 60 years), the low intensity of occupation at that village (50-200 people at most) and the total lack of non-fraudulent or certain Norse sites south of that site (all runestones are either known frauds or likely frauds, Ken Feder's book "Frauds, Myths and Mysteries" goes into it in detail). They did seem to have trade ties from Greenland to Inuit groups, but that is too far north for chili. And the Atlantic coast is too well known from decades of CRM archaeology work, there is a total lack of anything but Indigenous trade networks. Which are large, like, Florida to Quebec large, and those did move Spanish material north decades before anyone saw a European. None of those areas had the right species of chili either, save wild C. annum in Florida. Coastal Mesoamerica is also well known enough to rule out Pre-Cortez European contact. The stories of a White Bearded God only appear in Spanish records, decades after the invasion and no one resembling European shows up in the the many vivid art pieces of Mesoamerica. The eastern coast of South America is less well understood, but would have been a more difficult undertaking for Norse sailors than reaching the Mesoamerican Gulf Coast. If those chilis are not intrusive (a big if, I showed it to a Swedish-speaking friend who expressed concerns similar to mine and works in the region) I would argue for bird-aided dispersal as some migratory birds got blown across the ocean, a well documented phenomena. What the Roman sourcr describes also matches A. melegueta, native to West Africa is likely the "African pepper" of Pliny. So while the hypothesis you posit is intriguing, again it has next to no evidence. The standards for evidence in archaeology are huge, isolated occurrences are not taken as good evidence outside very special cases. As an example, I worked at a Pueblo I site. In the fill of a room we found pieces of Pueblo III ceramics, well dated by decades of thousands of examples coming from single component sites with good tree-ring and radiocarbon dates. Now, one answer is the styles are centuries older, based on only a few sherds. But looking at the site. it was occupied from CE 500-900 or so, and again from CE 1050-1240, and again in modern times. Ample admixture had occurred and the sherds are therefore most likely, almost certainly, intrusive. Similar problems are common in Hohokam archaeology, for example Historic horse bones mixed into ancient fill, or 1870s ceramics associated with CE 1000s ones. It could simply be as you say, that research isn't directed that way. Yet in the thousands of excavations across Eurasia, including very well preserved Viking Era and Classical sites, there is no other instance of Pre-Columbus Eurasian capiscum I am aware of. Either evidence is being covered up (unlikely), preservation is rare (possible) or it is admixture into an older context (most likely).
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Aug 20, 2019 03:11
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These aren't trade networks as you'd normally think. Indigenous trade networks in North America outside Mesoamerica are not formally organized, rather the long distance networks are more down-the-line, involving socially motivated movements of special objects. Think native copper or ceramic vessels. Even the Southwest-Mesoamerica network seems to work on these general principles. It's why the movement of foodstuffs, as best I can tell and outside the potlatch, over 60km at most. They're sometimes called interaction spheres, Hopewell being an example. It is durable objects of power or objects associated with status like cacao that move in them, not common spices. There also is a general ignorance of Capiscum and other more southern foods in the more northern societies at contact. As mentioned, even the groups in that Southwest that do seem to have directly interacted with Mesoamerica, like the Hohokam, do not appear to obtain peppers.
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Aug 20, 2019 05:46
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mastershakeman posted:What happened to the mississipian mound builders Moundbuilder culture declined as people moved on from Cahokia and Moundville, but a few vastly reduced villages continued until the Spanish. People also moved into new villages and they're still around. The Cherokee, Caddo, Creek and Choctaw peoples are all direct descendants, as are a lot of the smaller Indigenous nations along the river. Some people in the northeast corner of the culture probably also joined up with Eastern Woodlands confederacies and feudal kingdoms like the Haudenosaunee, Huron and Powhatan. If I recall no one claims them more due to arcane federal law around NAGPRA and the chaos of colonization making things more difficult than out west. The western states in general are fantastic about laws to protect ancestral remains. Another problem is how many mounds are on private land, and unless you pass laws protecting cultural patrimony items and human remains (Arizona, Colorado and New Mexico have great ones) then no federal law touches on that. KiteAuraan has issued a correction as of 20:01 on Aug 20, 2019 |
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Aug 20, 2019 19:56
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mycomancy posted:Anthropology is another field where this type of ascientific dogmatic thought dominates due to lovely presumptions and, frankly, racist-rear end motherfucking old white men from Ivy League schools. You know Christopher D. Pierce? (His doctoral dissertation was on the spread of labor-intensive corrugated ceramics in the US Southwest and similar conclusions)
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Aug 21, 2019 04:39
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cheetah7071 posted:The researchers' findings suggested that the split between South American and Australian happened before the split between Australian and New Guinean. In other words, it's pretty plausible that there was a population living in Asia that split--one group north and one group south. The northern ones followed Beringia whether by land or following the coast by sea). There's no need for the transpacific sea voyage you posit. Even if you're right that boats existed much earlier than previously thought, boats that can make a transpacific journey are much more advanced. We also have pretty good dates of colonization of Pacific islands, and none of the islands far enough away to suggest advanced boating technology were inhabited more than two or three thousand years ago. Yeah, that is what the actual paper says. It seems to be another case of university press offices and popular mass media hyping up things that the research doesn't actually say.
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Aug 21, 2019 22:49
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It says nothing of the sort. It implies a shared ancestral population in mainland SE Asia that split both north and south and arrived in Beringia or east Siberia at a time frame consistent with current models of human movement into East Beringia around 40 KYA. This group then moves south, probably raft hopping down the coast (contrary to what popular media says the Ice Free Corridor has fallen out of favor with archaeologists). Later groups do the same. This is a period from 40-16 KYA, ample time for such movements of small groups within the model as it stands, no genocide needed. The archaeological evidence is early sites of at least 30 KYA in west Alaska and earlier still in east Siberia. There are also likely sites beneath the ocean. The occurrence of early coastal sites (16 KYA, all the good ones, Cactus Hill and Meadowcroft still have dating issues) matches a movement by raft down the Pacific Coast from Beringia, not across the open Pacific. The Lapita Culture is the earliest we know of to attempt and succeed at that no earlier than 1600 BCE. You don't need genocides to explain it, just genetic drift and more isolated populations or, also likely given the small database for Indigenous North American DNA, a lack of needed genetic data to identify the population.
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Aug 21, 2019 23:08
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MizPiz posted:What are some good books on ancient international relations? I'd especially love anything with first hand accounts of people experiencing a culture for the first time (Like Chinese dignitaries/merchants visiting the Africa or Greece and vice versa) Any translation of the works of Ibn Battuta, a Moor who traveled across the entirety of the Islamic world, as well as to Beijing and up into then Islamic but distinct Iberia and the Balkans. In particular he traveled extensively in Sahel West Africa and down the east coast of Africa starting in Mogadishu and going as far as Zanzibar.
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Aug 22, 2019 01:39
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Dreylad posted:The Social Wars are crazy in how many people died and Rome just kept on going somehow. gently caress Rome, Samnites forever! Pompeii is Samnite, Romanae Eunt Dominae!
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Aug 26, 2019 13:11
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Nomnom Cookie posted:algorithm knows best. better than ancient contemporaries? yes ofc, if they knew anything they would've had algorithm too This is legitimately becoming a problem in archaeology but the big researchers and schools are on board computer models and failed processual theories come Hell so there is no pushback. Just giant cmputer models and simulations built on assumptions and then data (artifacts, sites, site and settlement patterns) and interpretations are tested against the models instead of the way it should be done, testing models againat the archaeological record.
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Oct 23, 2019 04:56
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That is exactly what I was describing. Most of it is very short scale, most stuff moves from one node, where it switches hands, to another. Hopewell spread that way mostly. Mostly. There is evidence for something called Power Questing, where a few members of society who ended up with some material advantage funded their own trips alone to far off places wherw they collected objects such as obsidian, brought them back and increased their social power through the display and strategic giving of objects of power. None of the exotics are prevelant enough, even in Hopewell sites, to suggest that this trade was what we would consider intensive. Even by Neolithic standards this isn't intensive, and it isn't really economically motivated. The 60km limit was for foodstuffs, and only most, for example cacao and Illex spp. were both dried and light and were transported over wider areas, even when water travel was unavailable.
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Oct 23, 2019 05:11
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twoday posted:also, It is not the same quinoa you may be thinking of (the Andean species), it is a species native to the East Coast as the article mentions and had to travel FAR less distance than capiscum would to Newfoundland. It also is mentioned that it was found far north in later contexts, so while the early date is notable, it is not entirely unexpected. It also ties into the same trade networks known in the Eastern Woodlands for other goods, including lithic raw material, so again, not really that out of place, despite the sensational reporting. It is more akin to the first early maize dates from Bat Cave and other US Southwest sites in that it pushes back practices known to exist in the same areas at a later time. Whereas no one in the mainland US/Canada north of the range of wild chiltipines is known archaeologically or ethnographically to use chili. Also, using the term quinoa for non-Andean domesticated cheno-ams and Goosefoot is just stupid. As for Power Questing, I'll have to get back to you on that, it has been a long time since the theory course.
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Oct 23, 2019 05:46
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Long distance trade is honestly expected early is the thing that so frequently is missed. Clovis Complex people were trading raw material over fairly large distances about 13,000 years ago, and even moving from Kentucky to Ontario isn't that odd in the Archaic. Archaic groups move A LOT as do a lot of Early Agricultural groups and since a lot of the material culture is so ephemeral the exact range of movements is poorly understood. A good example, again, is maize in the US Southwest. It appears around 4000 years ago, give or take, about 1500 or 2000 years after it is domesticated in central Mexico. But who it came from is still a big ???
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Oct 23, 2019 06:17
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He also believes Augustus Caesar ushered in an era of prosperity, good governence and stability in the empire, so he's kind of an idiot. And he looks like Nero.
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Oct 24, 2019 21:02
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Gringostar posted:missing the neckbeard imo Got him mixed up with his uncle, Caligula. There is a statue of him from Pompeii that is totally Zucc.
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Oct 24, 2019 22:08
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Dreylad posted:Scott's great. Thanks for the summary. If anything it is the Hohokam culture of the central Sonoran Desert that cast doubt on Scott's hypothesis. 1000 years of large scale irrigation canals in a marginal agricultural landscape with rock hard soils, 2000 years of smaller irrigation experiments prior, basically no evidence of states and even hierarchical leadership evidence is equivocal at best. Which may be because they knew about states. They interacted with West México from the earliest times of their culture (around CE 450, with sporadic contact for millenia prior) and by then states are well established in that region. By then people from that region are also living at Teotihuacan so it is possible the Hohokam had some knowledge of that massive city. And by CE 1050 their northern neighbors at Chaco Canyon had built a state out of what seems to be leveraged social and material debt embedded in ritual feasts and ritual services. So it may be an active rejection of what they saw elsewhere. Also Hawaii sort of casts doubt on the idea that storable surplus as embodied by grain was needed for state formation as none of the staple foods of Kānaka Maoli society stored very well and historical records don't really suggest control of surplus led to the formation of the numerous states of the archipelago. Some of the West African tropical societies (especially ancient Yoruba and Igbo) may be similar. Crops are all tubers that store poorly during the period of initial state formation. KiteAuraan has issued a correction as of 09:24 on Jul 14, 2020 |
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Jul 14, 2020 09:18
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