Matrix Thread: actually it has very good politics and is good because the action sux

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Matrix Thread: actually it has very good politics and is good because the action sux

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The other point, the big one, concerns the form of the metaphor. Your assertion is that the matrix is specifically a metaphor for transphobic healthcare systems, while I argue that it�s more generally the symbolic order (from lacanian psychoanalysis). I can kinda see the �healthcare� reading because, yeah, the robots are providing a life-support system for humanity and some would prefer to opt out. But that doesn�t really work when we go into greater detail. Morpheus lays it out pretty clearly:

�The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us, even now in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work, when you go to church, when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.�

(Note yet another reference to taxation.)

Morpheus then goes on to explain that everyone is a prisoner. It�s very clear that he�s not referring to healthcare, or anything analogous to it. �It is all around us, even now in this very room.�

So the issue is that you�re not wrong: given that the matrix effectively �is� reality, this includes transphobic ideologies. It�s just not limited to that. It also includes racism and so-forth.

I'm going to be honest, the quote you're citing is what the gender binary feels like for me--a trans non-binary person. It does indeed feel like this overbearing force that you can't quite escape. You're weirdly focusing in on healthcare, but that is actually irrelevant to a lot of gender non-conforming people. The issue is a wider systems of beliefs and institutions that preserve the idea of a strict gender binary and how that defines individuals who fall into those identities.

Not to get into my personal life too much, but I work a lot with issues regarding queer youth. I was able to help bring my current school into compliance with current gender guidelines (Not saying boys and girls, having flexible bathroom options). One issue I ran into was that around lunch, there is supposed to be no gender segregation. I had someone push back against this because the 'horny' boys might be out of control with the girls. They tried to convince me we could still figure out a way to support non-binary and trans kids while having the segregation for CIS kids. The person who said this was seeing the issues of gender non-conforming people as this separate issue from that of CIS people.

The issue was that they were absolutely wrong. The little Black boys she was trying to instill these rules against may be mostly CIS, they may never have the experience I have of choosing a new name or having that first moment of stepping out in women's clothes. But just like me, someone is telling them, "THIS is your gender. And THIS is what that means." So, when someone fights for gender inclusivity and against the gender binary, it's not just for gender non-conforming or intersex people. It is indeed for everyone because everyone is trapped in the binary. An when you follow the rabbit hole, you end up fighting against white supremacy as well because that is also a massive system and by their very nature they end up intertwined.

That is all to say, I think your post implies that you are looking at the gender binary as a thing that only impacts a certain class of people. Morpheus saying 'everyone' excludes the possibility of the Matrix representing the binary, but that's not true. Just like if you were to read the Matrix as representing white supremacy it would not mean that it only traps People of Color.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Sep 27, 2021

# ¿ Sep 27, 2021 03:08

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 02:23

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

ImpAtom posted:

The problem with that reading is that the point isn't that they are wrong. It is that it is a shallow heartless reading of the film. Like "The Matrix is about trans rights" doesn't have to be incorrect for the shallow marketing person going "It's gotta be about, uh, trans stuff, right?" to not actually be saying anything of note or meaning because he doesn't care about Trans Rights, just "what are the marketing buzzwords for The Matrix." Like that is the entire point. They literally are looking at buzzwords to try to puzzle something together that "feels" the Matrix without actually being it.

Yeah, it's this. The point isn't that trans readings of The Matrix are bad. The point is that commodifying the trans politics into a brand is bad. But the video game developers aren't all being shown as equally bad. They're all working in a flawed system of commodification, but the guy who mentions trans politics seems earnest.

But also, the idea that hat trans-readings of The Matrix are being undermined by a movie in which the climax is the hero reclaiming her name and telling The Matrix to stop dead-naming her--just like Neo does in the original--seems off.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2021 06:29

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

MJeff posted:

Just outta curiosity, was it confirmed anywhere that Tiffany was her pre-awakening name or is that just the logical thing to assume from her going "Tiffany? Really?"

You mean like before she left the original Matrix? I assumed based on the exchange at the end of the movie that Tiffany was a new name in this iteration of The Matrix specifically meant to mock her true name.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2021 06:45

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I feel like making Trinity's false DSI identity male would have accomplished a lot of that.

The audience knows Trinity, Neo loves her, and then the machine are misgendering her as a means of control.

I think that's already in the movie. Neo and Trinity have always had an androgynous aspect to them that is empathized by how similar they look to each other. The analyst admits that calling her Tiffany in the end was an act of mockery. Trinity in the original film is often assumed to be a man anyway, an assumption she doesn't seem to care about. Making her a literal man is probably not as cruel as making her a soccer mom.

I think it's worth remembering that while The Matrix may not have much in terms of literal transgender characters, it has always played with femininity and masculinity which is different than gender. Neo and Trinity are not transgender characters, they do often oscillate between masculine and feminine identities. The We Hate Movies podcast did an episode yesterday on The Matrix where they made a good example of how a lot of the literary references in The Matrix cast Neo in feminine roles such as Alice, Dorothy, or Snow White being woken up my true love's kiss.

# ¿ Dec 29, 2021 16:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I think honestly the new Matrixes make a lot of sense to me. Neo is essentially put into a situation where we gets to have his cake and eat it too. He gets all the memories and adventure of The Matrix, gets to still be seen as a revolutionary figure in a way, but without giving up an ounce of privilege. Meanwhile, Trinity's cuts even deeper. The notion that the film is anti-family is ignoring that Trinity is actually someone who cares about family and loves the people around her. It's just her chosen family in the original. So, The Matrix casts her in a family she didn't choose, trapping her in her own sense of loyalty and responsibility to others.

# ¿ Jan 2, 2022 15:54

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I feel like Matrix Revelations is like a writer's workshop or a really good DM. There interesting ideas both literally and thematically, but it just doesn't feel cohesive. I actually think the idea of Neo being trapped in bullet time for example is pretty brilliant, but is also not that great in the movie.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2022 03:39

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

This is where various commentators will jump in to say that the (bad) matrix-machines represent [...] transphobia

Not too harp too much, but I think this is probably where the challenge of the gender readings of The Matrix breaks down for you. The Matrix is not transphobia and in the original film is not in of itself even necessarily bad through that lens. Through the gender lens, the illusionary world of The Matrix represents the notion of a gender binary. The Matrix offers a few key scenes that resonate for people as being similar to a trans or queer experience. One is the taking of the red pill which is comparative to the acceptance or realization of not being gender conforming. The other is Neo's ability to see and play with The Matrix itself. The thing about being gender non-confirming or even just accepting gender non-confirming people is that you begin to ask what that actually means. So, what was once just sex becomes sex, gender, gender expression, gender identity, sexuality, and then it spirals as it interacts with culture, race, etc.

Interestingly enough it is the unawakened humans in the original movie not the machines that are probably more comparable to the experience of transphobia. Understanding gender and its components does feel like seeing a secret code, and the knowledge that there are people who want to murder you because of the sanctity of girls have vaginas and boys have penises.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2022 17:08

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

Neo Rasa posted:

Yeah I can't believe some people think that like, she tricked WB somehow, those scenes are fun and obviously WB liked them.

In less than a year, WB has released two film reboots in which they are cast as quasi-Villains and the movie actively suggests that its own premise is a bad idea. I understand that supports your argument, but I also have no idea what the gently caress is going on with WB outside of misguided Disney envy.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 22:20 on Jan 5, 2022

# ¿ Jan 5, 2022 22:15

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I think both creators (considering the Witchowskis as a team for simplicity) resonate hard with their respective in-groups and just don't with out-groupers.

Is the producer of the video trans? I thought he implied that he is not, but of course who knows!

But also:
--The Wachoskies have clearly made films that resonate with people outside of being gender confirming themselves
--We are still having the issue of seeing The Matrix's trans politics as being strictly allegorical to the trans experience, which it is, but also challenging the ideas of gender binary which a system of a power that needs to be challenged.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Jan 8, 2022

# ¿ Jan 8, 2022 05:28

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I refuse to speculate on this.

Okay, well very noble. The point is that you are using a video that implies that trans people are jaded by their own share experiences to view quality in Resurrections that is not there. However the producer of the very video you're referencing says that his experiences are very different implying that he is CIS and he likes the movie honestly a lot more than I do. My question was clarifying in case I missed something about his public life and of course with the caveat that anyone can be trans regardless of their current expression or stated identity.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2022 06:14

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I'm not saying that trans people are perceiving some phantom quality. I'm saying that unless you're already privy to it the quality that a few people are seeing is really hard to notice over all the bad.

I think that's hard to take seriously when you're going to extremes to make the scene of Trinity being mocked for expressing her true self as ludicrous without the trans narratives by picking some extreme examples of cartoons characters and not the badass androgynous lady.

Also once again, the broader point is that the video you were referencing to begin with seems to demonstrating the opposite of your point.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2022 06:35

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I'm saying that from the husband's perspective it's pretty funny.

The film assumes an audience will automatically read it as an utterly insensitive cruelty. I'm using this as an example of how quality got missed. Not everyone was as primed as Lana Witchowski to read that scene as intended.

So instead, people focused on the parts they understood, and those parts were still kind of confusing and bad.

We know that from her husband's perspective it's pretty funny because that is literally what happened. He found it funny. You're creating these absurd analogies for why he is right to find it funny and why it's silly to be empathetic to Trinity. Because not only have we all had moments where we've seen people or characters who for a moment symbolize how we'd like to be, a lot of us-humanity, not trans people-have had moments when we've felt shotdown by someone in a moment of vulnerability when we've shared a dream or idle idea or thought about we view ourselves.

Like Teagone said, the scene doesn't really require any background or really a critical lens. Trinity saw herself in the character, expressed it to her husband, he laughed at her, and it's sad because he doesn't see her the way she sees herself, and worse she just buries that self-concept. I think a lot of folks have had some version of that and even if you somehow haven't, it's not hard to understand why it's sad.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2022 06:57

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

This thread feels really bizarre on a couple of levels right now...

Like I think Teagone is doing a good job of explaining the scene is really straightforward and the weird goal posts and analogies people have created to make this scene somehow bizarre is weird. It's just hard for me to imagine someone watching that scene on a surface level and have the issues you're implying are present.

The thing is I don't really disagree with Moths that Resurrections isn't very good. I found it very fun and liked watching it, but the action is a huge bummer and the film explores a lot of interesting ideas without a lot of cohesion.

I think that there is still this fundamental issue of rejecting gender or queer criticism in this thread though that is a bit more upsetting. The reason that you can apply a feminist, class based, and colonial critiques to any movie is because those lenses are centered on systems of power that are so prevalent in our society (Capital, the gender binary, the patriarchy, White Supremacy, etc) that its hard for any work of literature to not either challenge those systems or uphold those systems, intentionally or not.

I think that The Matrix as a queer allegory has been presented in a poor way by the internet. People think of it in terms of there being a secret code of what the movie is REALLY about. When it's more that when you apply a gender or queer lens to The Matrix as well as Resurrections, you actually start to engage in some interesting ideas and insights. As someone who came back to the movie after transitioning, it was actually a pretty helpful experience in naming my experience.

Yes, part of that is because the creators are actively working through some of those feelings, but you can also apply a queer or gender lens to anything just like a class based lens. I'm going through the old Disney animated movies, and it's not that Ariel or Belle are secretly trans or queer--they're literally not in the movie besides both being willing to gently caress people outside of their species. It's just that when you approach the films with that lens, the movie resonates with you in a different way.

But if you go to SMG's post, what is frustrating is that SMG's good posts actually do present good class based critiques of movies. But his last big post isn't criticism at all. It's the opposite. It's actively shutting down queer or gender based reads of the film by surfacing fringe internet culture and nitpicking the fact that Neo and Trinity are CIS--even though the films have always presented the pair purposefully in a way that demonstrates how the lines between gender can be blurred. And I don't even disagree with SMG talking about Otherkin poo poo and relating it to The Matrix. The issue is using it as a bludgeon to shut up other readings just like earlier in the thread when he was trying to argue gender based readings because he has a class based critique.

Instead of seeing discussions of queerness or trans politics in The Matrix as the application of a critical lens though, it's us trans folks applying our FEELINGS to things. We're not being critical thinkers, we're being emotional and bringing our own baggage in. And then on top of that, the moments in the story that we relate to cannot possibly be shared or experienced by people who are not in our small group.

It's just all pretty lovely.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2022 19:22

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

moths posted:

I really hope this isn't how I'm coming across.

It is a bit, but I don't think it's your intent. I don't think that we're really in that much disagreement with the movie. It really is not that good of a movie.

Also Shiroc really stop responding to SMG.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 9, 2022

# ¿ Jan 9, 2022 14:59

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

SMG being Ben Shapiro this whole time really took everyone by surprise.

V I know, but the condescending "Debate Me" stuff is obnoxious, especially when it was applied to the earlier conversations around the rejection of queer readings.V

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Jan 23, 2022

# ¿ Jan 23, 2022 00:01

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 13, 2024 02:23

Timeless Appeal: May 28, 2006

I honestly don't really like 2 and 3, and am fond of 4. But I recognize that 2 and 3 are more visually ambitious and technically better.

The Matrix is such a tight and perfect movie for me, I think it would be hard for 2 and 3 to be enjoyable for me at all unless they went in very, very different directions with a whole new set of characters. 4 embracing the absurdity of its existence works for me.

# ¿ Feb 26, 2022 21:13

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Matrix Thread: actually it has very good politics and is good because the action sux