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The show absolutely needs more time, but I don't think that this would fix everything. It's pretty clear to me that the show runners have very little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories (or for that matter, Nynaeve's) and that while they're much more willing to tell Egwene's, they're only willing to do so in ways that erase the book character's flaws and vulnerabilities. As a result, I don't really think the show even holds up on its own merits; it doesn't really have its own merits because it's so wrapped up in its resentment of the (both perceived and real) flaws of its source. It would actually be far better almost entirely as a Pike vehicle or as an original fantasy story more focused on the parts of WoT that Rafe does like, but of course capitalism being what it is you can't possibly be allowed to make an original property nowadays so we get gestalt instead.
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Feb 28, 2024 05:00
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socialsecurity posted:Yeah the characters need more screentime but it feels like but people forget how little some of the characters did in the first book or two. Next season we're going to the Aiel Waste; these two seasons really are more about getting the characters in the right position for book four so they have to some degree covered more like two and a half books. We can see aspects of this in how Rand runs away from his friends (which he does in TDR, though under drastically different circumstances and motivations), how Mat goes on an adventure from Tar Valon to a southern city (again a TDR thing; if they'd been able to get Thom's actor he likely would have run into Mat in the show too), and how Aviendha has joined the party (introduced in TDR). The Stone of Tear is probably getting skipped until a later season altogether. Also, Ishamael is dead. Gwaihir posted:This is an insane take in a thread that has really seen Some poo poo, god drat. "Little interest in telling any of the ta'veren's stories" lol man cmon. Rand and Mat are entirely different characters in the two mediums; book Rand by the end of book three had trained for months under a master swordsman, gotten a basic channeling skill through training under duress, led an adventuring party, faked his way through a high level political event, and was consistently able to avoid being pulled into both the Aes Sedai's schemes for him and the Forsaken's. TV Rand trained with an old man and has no skill, happily embraced channeling and sought out a teacher, has never been in charge of anyone, has no experience in politics, and spent most of the second season deciding which scary lady he wanted to have in charge of his life. Even ignoring the Mat actor kerfluffle, since there's no reason to think that was the showrunner's fault, he's still a guy whose happy family was replaced for drama, quickly abandons his friends (book Mat would never run away from an upset Egwene; he'd find out why she was upset and make the cause pay all while bitching to himself about how he hates how much she whines about things), and proudly embraces being a Hero of the Horn even though his book counterpart would absolutely hate being bound to the Horn on principle and also he's done absolutely nothing to suggest he's worthy of the title. Perrin meanwhile spent season two almost completely out of focus, most of it catching up with his book one plot and the rest being an accessory to Aviendha's adventure. And then there's Nynaeve, who you didn't quote me on but I'm going to rant about anyway because you've got me started on it! Her Accepted test was absolutely loving butchered, rendered incoherent by turning her three tests from "Don't go, you've got the upper hand over your enemy, you're enjoying the power", "Don't go, you can't abandon your people, they need you," and "Don't go, you've got the man of your dreams, you can skip all the struggles of your life," to "Run through the doorway because old family is dead so there's no reason to stay here," "Run through the doorway because the Aes Sedai are through it and they can help so there's no reason to stay here" and "Run through the doorway because your fake new family is dead so there's no reason to stay here." Do they not understand why staying in the false world is supposed to be a temptation? And of course, the third doorway failing and reappearing goes from something Nynaeve specifically forces to happen after she fucks up to something that happens arbitrarily. Then there's the finale, where she's turned into an impotent failure who can neither force herself to feel angry at Elayne's suffering to fix it nor apply even basic first aid techniques, then proudly marches the princess with the injured leg to the top of a tower so that she can sit in the background, doing nothing as Elayne heals Rand. At least she saved Eg- *checks notes* At least they rewrote how channeling, linking, and the a'dam works so that Rafe Judkins' favorite character could escape an inescapable situation because she's just that special, meaning that Nynaeve can't even orchestrate her rescue because she doesn't need to be rescued.
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Feb 28, 2024 07:35
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Submarine Sandpaper posted:They could have actually made it moraine focused instead of the dumb mystery and following all the EFF. Who really needed to see that awful perin and egg white cloak scene? Him showing up with yellow eyes would have worked just as well, and plan for branching out after moraine gets fridged in the wastes. The return to EF is going to have to diverge from the books massively anyway in the show. Yes, definitely the show needs to be sidelining its main characters even more than it already has been. Every successful adaptation throws out as much of the original work as possible.
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Mar 23, 2024 17:48
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th3t00t posted:I said that WoT needs an adaption on the level of Denis Villenueve's Dune, not that it needs to be adapted in the exact same format. I can't believe you think that Timothée Chalamet would make a good Rand.
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Mar 23, 2024 21:41
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I think they should adapt all the sa'angreal out. Why ever try to be true to the books when you can piss all over them and still have half the so-called fans say that it was necessary because walking all the way to a toilet is just too challenging for the modern adapter?
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Mar 26, 2024 16:27
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Grundulum posted:The Callandor discussion feels a bit like the Ship of Theseus as applied to Wheel of Time. If that were the only change to the story, it would still be the Wheel of Time. But if you remove Callandor and the Stone of Tear; if you give Perrin a wife for the sole purpose of having him murder her in the first episode; if you take away the scene in Caemlyn where Elaida realizes what Rand is/will become; if you make Ingtar an honorable character who lives and dies by the Borderlands code; if Lan doesn’t spend months training Rand and giving him advice about how Being A Man means being Hard All The Time… How many changes can you make and still call it a Wheel of Time show? No no no, you see, books and TV are different and that completely justifies everything. You couldn't possibly make a TV version of this story without all of these specific changes; it simply cannot be.
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Mar 26, 2024 21:47
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Colonel Cool posted:I've never liked that explanation because it implies that more or less the same story gets retold every time, which is super boring. Yeah I'd always gotten the impression that that was supposed to be the case; some stuff Jordan said in interviews made it seem like each iteration of an Age would look very different while still having similar beats (each 3A having a noble kingdom collapsing due to betrayal in the midst of an apocalyptic war, a continent-sized empire collapsing into civil war, and ultimately a Last Battle but not necessarily "Manetheren", "Artur Hawkwing", or "Rand al'Thor of the Two Rivers"). I've wondered a bit if the fanon assumption that there's supposed to be a second Breaking or equivalent to reset the map back to the continents we know of for the 1A is actually true or if in fact the 2A/3A Breaking is the only one of its kind and it just makes an entirely different world map each Turning.
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Mar 26, 2024 22:07
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The best part of Callandor is how it's the only sa'angreal ever made that uses both the One Power and the True Power and it is therefore instrumental to resealing the Dark One, the central antagonist of the story. But yes, let's get rid of it. Instead of using metaphysics and tricking Ishmael, maybe Rand can just give a speech about the power of friendship while the other ta'veren and Elayne stand around in cool poses.
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Mar 27, 2024 17:28
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Data Graham posted:I mean I guess at some point you have to start asking questions like, is WoT about things like Callandor? Is it about "a specific array of props and magic items and spells and character catchphrases"? Or is it about more of a narrative arc where the trinkets and the minibosses and the cities and even the characters don't really matter as much as the central elevator-pitch, "men do magic like this, women do magic like this, here's what that looks like in practice" And so we're back to "It's completely unreasonable for a book's adaptation to try and hew closely to the books, it's completely fine to change anything and everything. Just be grateful it's still Rand and Egwene vs Ishamael and Lanfear instead of Billy Bob and Priscilla vs Jesus and Cindy, because even that would be okay as long as one part of the central premise (and not even the whole thing!) is being kept".
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Mar 27, 2024 18:06
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Mad Hamish posted:It is a TV show and you don't have to watch it. It's a forum about complaining about poo poo you don't like and I paid money to do that.
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Mar 27, 2024 18:15
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Future Me Hates Me posted:It makes no sense from a tv writing perspective to introduce a cool new sword that the audience wont get to see used for several years. For the record, the show doing this would get so complaint from me unless the specifics of how they introduced Callandor later on were particularly stupid. CainFortea posted:Yea, but what's the point in life if you can't fundamentally misunderstand what words mean in order to act superior to anyone who likes things? I mean at no point in this thread have I attacked anyone who liked the show (and note that quite a few people have dunked on me for voicing my opinion) except those who specifically trot out the "it's an adaptation and therefore any change is fair game" card. Last dude I quoted literally said the mini bosses (the Forsaken) and characters (our ta'veren) are unimportant compared to the premise.
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Mar 27, 2024 18:32
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CainFortea posted:It's a book thread that people who hate the show can't stop talking about the tv show in. This thread had been silent for a month until a show fan brought up show news. But hey, you're right. I'll talk about the books. I've been doing a reread and posting my thoughts on my Tumblr. I finished up TGH a bit ago and will be starting TDR soon. Is this an appropriate place to post those thoughts as well when I start up again?
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Mar 27, 2024 18:40
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Mat Cauthon posted:C'mon man. No one ITT wants a completely faithful adaptation of the books more than me but it is clear that we are not getting that for budgetary and/or showrunner preference reasons. I would love it if they kept Callandor and maybe they will, but have Rand find it in Rhuidean or somewhere else. It is a useful plot device and having it show up somewhere in the story closer to the Last Battle (read: in the last 1-2 seasons) could help them bring a bunch of threads together. Since the show has already confirmed Rand will be going to Tear (at least IIRC - I believe Min mentions the Stone in her debut episode), he'll almost certainly recover it in whatever that season that is, as speculated upthread (and which I noted would be an acceptable choice for the adaptation in my eyes). I'm not actually criticizing the show at this point since we have no evidence for any of this one way or the other. But if people in this thread (as noted, the book thread) are gonna bring up the possibility of it being cut entirely and go, "It would be a great choice, completely unnecessary cuts are the hallmark of great adaptations, anyone who says otherwise is a trolling hater, all that really matters in WoT is the gender roles," I am gonna argue against that. This series is way more than "you ever notice how men cast magic like this but women cast magic like this". The choices it makes have enough symbolic weight that they're worth defending. Rand outright wonders why the prophecies give a gently caress about Callandor when the Choedan Kal are everything he could want out of a sa'angreal and don't get a mention. Every time he (or Moridin) tries to use "the sword that isn't a sword" like a weapon, they pay dearly for having done so. Callandor is part of Jordan's anti-war story and tossing it away in favor of the bigger gun - and saying it's a negligible change - is genuinely saddening.
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Mar 27, 2024 22:29
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DTurtle posted:That wasn't their choice. The actor had a scheduling conflict. Considering the actor's scheduling conflicts preventing him from appearing in the initial episodes of season 1, I can't help but feel that this was one of the show's few miscasts. A decent actor who will actually show up to play the part is always better than one you think is amazing but never available.
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Mar 28, 2024 19:27
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Oasx posted:For some reason they decided that Rand needed to cut his hair, despite his hair color being a significant story element, it’s just as odd as giving Loial that awful wig. I think the actor cut his hair for some other reason. But I could be wrong.
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Mar 31, 2024 17:08
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Oh yeah I said I'd be posting thoughts on the book for my reread. Guess I should be doing that. I started this on my tumblr so you can find all my thoughts on books 1 and 2 there. As for the Prologue...quote:Pedron Niall’s aged gaze wandered about his private audience chamber, but dark eyes hazed with thought saw nothing. We start out this book with the Whitecloak icon because we're in Whitecloak town. And as is usual in Whitecloak town, every person in the place is looking around wildly and still completely blind to what's in front of them. quote:Still, he was suddenly aware of the tendon-ridged back of the hand holding the drawing, aware of the need for haste. Time was growing short. His time was growing short. It had to be enough. He had to make it enough. We do see evidence here and there that despite being a Whitecloak, Niall isn't a completely contemptible person but... He is of course still completely wrong. He's not going to make it to the Last Battl and it won't be old age that takes him. He's in audience with a guy who could be warning him about the threat that will destroy his country but is focused on something else entirely. quote:It is a worse madness than any false Dragon I’ve ever heard of. Thousands have declared for him already. Tarabon and Arad Doman are in civil war, as well as at war with each other. There is fighting all across Almoth Plain and Toman Head, Taraboner against Domani against Darkfriends crying for the Dragon—or there was fighting until winter chilled most of it. I’ve never seen it spread so quickly, my Lord Captain Commander. Like throwing a lantern into a hay barn. Considering how in-depth the series gets later on, it's a bit surprising we don't get much of a taste of this initial conflict. This all-consuming war, IIRC, continues to run on and off for pretty much the rest of the series, though the Seanchan do quiet it down and reframe it a great deal in the latter half. quote:“Lord Captain Bornhald said they called themselves Seanchan, my Lord Captain Commander,” Byar said stolidly. “He said they were Darkfriends. And his charge broke them, even if they killed him.” Even when Byar touches on the Seanchan it's only in ways that actually misinform Niall. No wonder the LCC is so frustrated with this conversation. quote:“By this one Darkfriend you spoke of, Child Byar?” He could not keep an edge out of his own voice. A year’s planning lay in ruins amid the corpses of a thousand of the Children, and Byar wanted to talk only of this one man. “This young blacksmith you’ve only seen twice, this Perrin from the Two Rivers?” Dude is so Perrin-obsessed that I feel that Perrin's ta'veren must be working against them both under these circumstances. Just like how Rand's causes both good and bad things to happen at random, so too does Perrin attract allies and enemies. quote:Perhaps these wars meant nothing in themselves—men fought wars—but they usually came one at a time. And aside from the false Dragon somewhere on Almoth Plain, another tore at Saldaea, and a third plagued Tear. Three at once. Consider how different from Europe the setting of this story is, that wars come "one at a time". They don't have the population to sustain Renaissance war rates, even if they do still have the technology. quote:The Atha’an Miere, the Sea Folk, were said to be ignoring trade to seek signs and portents—of what, exactly, they did not say—sailing with ships half full or even empty. I believe this is the first mention of them acting weird, so... that's an additional complication to look forward to. quote:But Tar Valon had apparently sent other Aes Sedai to support the other false Dragon at Falme. Nothing else fit the facts. Props to Niall here for coming to a somewhat correct conclusion from a variety of incorrect data. quote:Carridin was tall, well into his middle years, with a touch of gray in his hair, yet fit and hard. His dark, deep-set eyes had a knowing look about them, as always. And he did not blink under the silent study of the Lord Captain Commander. Few men had consciences so clear or nerves so steady. It's pretty easy to have a clear conscience when you don't have any conscience at all. Shame Niall's not a good enough judge of character to see that. quote:To serve the Light. Not to serve the Children of the Light. All the Children served the Light, but Pedron Niall often wondered if the Questioners really considered themselves part of the Children at all. Maybe instead of setting up plans to conquer the continent you could have dealt with the Questioners, Niall? No? Just gonna let that poo poo heap fester in the sun? Great choice. Absolutely no knives in the back are coming your way... His eyes really aren't seeing anything in this chapter. quote:The Shadow’s plots are murky, and often seem mad to those who walk in the Light. Sad thing is, Carridan is probably perfectly accurate in this particular sentence. The Dark spends a lot of its time acting in ways to maximize the paranoia of the common folk, to keep the Light too divided to properly purge it before the end of the Age. quote:Few ships have tried to cross the Aryth Ocean, and most never returned. Those that did, turned back before they ran out of food and water. Even the Sea Folk will not cross the Aryth, and they sail wherever there is trade, even to the lands beyond the Aiel Waste. My Lord Captain Commander, if there are any lands across the ocean, they are too far to reach, the ocean too wide. To carry an army across it would be as impossible as flying. 1. The Seanchan also do fly, naturally. 2. As Niall points out, this isn't a proof, it's only a (logical) guess. 3. The Sea Folk actually have made it across a few times, though they refer to the far end as the Isles of the Dead or something similar. Carridin probably isn't pointing this out either because he doesn't know or if he does because he doesn't want to make reaching the Seanchan continent seem plausible. quote:“Most people think Trollocs are only travelers’ tales and lies, and most of the rest think they were all killed in the Trolloc Wars. What other name would they put to a Trolloc but monster?” This... also isn't proof. Shame the Whitecloaks don't like logic as much as the White Aes Sedai do. quote:“Even a false Dragon,” Niall said dryly, “is not enough to make them forget four hundred years of squabbling over possession of Almoth Plain. As if either of them ever had the strength to hold it.” Even the real Dragon only manages to unite them through his second-order unification, as they lie across the Seanchan/West divide otherwise. quote:“At first they were only rumors, my Lord Captain Commander. Rumors so wild, no one could believe. By the time I learned the truth, Bornhald had joined battle. He was dead, and the Darkfriends scattered. Besides, my task was to bring the Light to Almoth Plain. I could not disobey my orders to chase after rumors.” Bro doesn't even have a good excuse. If Niall wasn't busy scheming for his own agenda, he could have ended Carridan here and now and saved everyone a lot of trouble. quote:He would never put forward one of his own, but I doubt he’d quibble if I named you. A few days under the question, and you would confess to anything. Name yourself Darkfriend, even. You would go under the headsman’s axe inside a week. Actually perhaps I'm overoptimistic here. Perhaps the High Inquisitor - or just the Darkfriends amid the Whitecloaks - would ferry Carridin away or arrange for an early demise before he could give away any information at all. Replace him with the next dude, same as the first. quote:Loose a lion—a rabid lion—in the streets. And when panic grips the people, once it has turned their bowels to water, calmly tell them you will deal with it. Then you kill it, and order them to hang the carcass up where everyone can see. Before they have time to think, you give another order, and it will be obeyed. And if you continue to give orders, they will continue to obey, for you will be the one who saved them, and who better to lead? Niall of course foreshadows Perrin's rise to power, though the boy does it kicking and screaming. quote:Niall rubbed his hands together. He felt cold. The dice were spinning, with no way of telling what pips would show when they stopped. In a way, Niall inadvertently views himself as a dark mirror to all three ta'veren. Perrin, by means of creating an enemy to unite people; Mat, as a Great General with a focus on gambling, and Rand... quote:But he, Pedron Niall, would unite humankind behind the banners of the Children of the Light. There would be new legends, to tell how Pedron Niall had fought Tarmon Gai’don, and won. Rand like this. quote:A month before, in the dead of winter, the gangly little man had arrived in Amadicia, ragged and half-frozen, and somehow managed to talk his way through all the layers of guards to Pedron Niall himself. He seemed to know things about events on Toman Head that were not in Carridin’s voluminous if obscure reports, or in Byar’s tale, or in any other report or rumor that had come to Niall. His name was a lie, of course. In the Old Tongue, Ordeith meant “wormwood.” "Wormwood" is a Book of Revelation reference: "The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many died from the water, because it was made bitter." But also, poor, poor Niall. He sees himself as a man of cold logic (steel, cuendillar, etc.) but with Ordeith around whatever virtues he had are assuredly doomed. quote:The Two Rivers,” Niall mused. “Someone else mentioned another Darkfriend from there, another youth. Strange to think of Darkfriends coming from a place like that. But truly they are everywhere.” Niall is almost, ALMOST clever enough to realize how stupid this claim is... But Ordeith's a fast talker. quote:Much of the drawing was only a smudge, and a rip ran across the young man’s breast, but miraculously the face was untouched. Fain can tear Rand up physically, as can most of the Shadow, but despite everything, the boy remains. quote:“Perhaps I must make plans for the Two Rivers. When the snows clear. Perhaps.” “As the Great Lord wishes,” Ordeith said blandly. And so we set up... next book's plot. Seems a little premature for this book's prologue but sure! Also note that Ordeith calls Niall the same thing all the Darkfriends call the Dark One. You'd think a real servant of the light would notice and object... quote:It was a man in form, no larger than most, but there the resemblance ended. Dead black clothes and cloak, hardly seeming to stir as it moved, made its maggot-white skin appear ever paler. And it had no eyes. That eyeless gaze filled Carridin with fear, as it had filled thousands before. Oddly, the wiki says that this is the first appearance of Shaidar Haran and that it was only described as a "very tall Myrddraal" at this stage but as you can see, this Myrddraal is actually... a little short for a storm trooper. I'm going to make the executive decision that no, this Fade is not even an early SH variant and that if Jordan wanted me to think so he should have put it in the text where it belonged instead of interviews after the fact. quote:The Halfman’s bloodless lips quirked in a smile. “Where there is shadow, there may I go.” There really must be some other limit to the Myrddraal's shadow-stepping technique because otherwise one of them should have just stepped in Rand's shadow and killed him if they wanted him dead so bad. quote:The Myrddraal grated, “Your Lord Captain Commander’s words are dung! You were commanded to find the human called Rand al’Thor and kill him. That before all else. Above all else! Why are you not obeying?” And so we see the trap that Carridin is in, an interesting trap indeed considering that in later books Rand will be off the kill list. It's a good thing Ba'alsy is mad enough for the inconsistency to just seem to be his illness and nothing more. Though perhaps this Fade works for one of the other Forsaken (Sammael? Rahvin?) It certainly isn't the DO deciding this (another thing that makes it hard to believe it's SH), because his orders are even clearer: let the Lord of Chaos rule. quote:“Hear me, human. You will find this youth and kill him as quickly as possible. Do not think you can dissemble. There are others of your children who will tell me if you turn aside in your purpose. But I will give you this to encourage you. If this Rand al’Thor is not dead in a month, I will take one of your blood. A son, a daughter, a sister, an uncle. You will not know who until the chosen has died screaming. If he lives another month, I will take another. And then another, and another. And when there is no one of your blood living except yourself, if he still lives, I will take you to Shayol Ghul itself.” Frankly Mr. not-Haran, I don't think that's a great threat for Carridin until you invoked his suffering. He doesn't seem like the kind of guy who cares about his family at all... quote:With his good hand Carridin struck the basket from Sharbon’s hands, sending withered winter apples rolling across the carpets, and backhanded the man across the face. The hierarchy of evil is so pathetic, isn't it? Ah well. So ends the third book's prologue. The first book's prologue was an Age before the main story and sets up the conflict of the book and the series clearly. The second book's prologue was at least a little before the chapters of the second book and set up the conflict of the book and the series clearly. This prologue doesn't bother with that and instead sets the tone for the vast majority of the prologues to come: checking in on the plot threads that aren't doing anything this book. Probably one of my least favorite structural choices in these books, but it's a minor quibble. Next time: Rampant abuse of innocent corvids.
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Apr 16, 2024 05:35
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RE: Elaida - yeah, it's definitely meant to show that the White Tower as an institution is a bit backwards and that Elaida in particular is not merely an antagonist in this book because of her profession but because of her personality. My thoughts on The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 1: This chapter begins with the ravens icon because it features gratuitous abuse of corvids. quote:The land seemed to be waiting. Waiting for something to burst. The land and Rand being one and all, presumably it's waiting for Rand himself to snap and go on a solo adventure. quote:He sniffed the wind without thinking. The smell of horse predominated, and of men and men’s sweat. A rabbit had gone through those trees not long since, fear powering its run, but the fox on its trail had not killed there. He realized what he was doing, and stopped it. I really "enjoy" how we jump from Perrin whining about Moiraine holding things up and having a tight grip to Perrin holding up his own character arc with a vice grip. I do feel like our boy will be making subtle progress this book, at least. quote:They were not as tall as he, nor as big—years as a blacksmith’s apprentice had given him arms and shoulders to make two of most men’s—but he had begun shaving every day to stop their jokes about his youth. Friendly jokes, but still jokes. He would not have them start again because he spoke of a feeling. I would think the best way to avoid accusations of youth would be to keep your facial hair but maybe Perrin's still in that patchy phase. You can really see just how tightly strung he is that even friendly jokes from dudes he's been traveling with for months get to him. quote:“It has to report. To a Halfman, usually.” In the Borderlands there was a bounty on ravens; no one there ever dared assume any raven was just a bird. “Light, if Heartsbane saw what the ravens saw, we would all have been dead before we reached the mountains.” Of course, if the Halfmen were at all clever about their shadow jumping then they'd be able to significantly narrow the delay in response times. That said, quote:“Too long for horseback,” Masema sneered. The triangular scar on his dark cheek twisted his contemptuous grin even more. “A good breastplate will stop even a pile arrow except at close range, and if your first shot fails, the man you’re shooting at will carve your guts out.” It's good to see that months of hanging out have done absolutely nothing to make Masema more likable. Fain's handiwork is alarming with how well it sticks. quote:The Shienarans knew how far he could see, but they seemed to take it as a matter of course, that and the color of his eyes, as well. They did not know everything, not by half, but they accepted him as he was. As they thought he was. They seemed to accept everything and anything. Their open acceptance of Perrin and his talents really only makes his reticence all the more frustrating. It's not like he's among the Aes Sedai who might try to gentle him or among the Whitecloaks who'd try to kill him. Dude has possibly the best support network in the world and he still tries to bury everything. quote:Ragan’s topknot waved as he shook his head. “A Tinker wouldn’t be mixed in this. Either she’s not a Tinker, or she is not the one we are supposed to meet.” Okay I guess the Shienarians aren't completely perfect, since even the nicer ones are a bit biased against the Traveling People. As Uno points out though, it's very impressive that she's come all this way. quote:The raven, Perrin thought. Stop looking at that bird and come on, woman. Maybe you’ve brought the word that finally takes us out of here. If Moiraine means to let us leave before spring. Burn her! For a moment he was not sure whether he meant the Aes Sedai, or the Tinker woman who seemed to be taking her own time. I can't help but feel that despite everything, Perrin might actually be the least patient and even-headed of the boys. He plays a good stoic on the outside - usually - but it's difficult to see early!Rand having this kind of thought process. quote:She was not young—gray showed thick in her hair where it was not hidden by her cowl—but her face had few lines, other than the disapproving frown she ran over their weapons. If she was alarmed at meeting armed men in the heart of mountain wilderness, though, she gave no sign. Her hands rested easily on the high pommel of her worn but well-kept saddle. And she did not smell afraid. She's not long for this book, but I do respect Leya quite a bit. This should be quite terrifying. quote:Leya shrugged and answered hesitantly. “I . . . knew that if I came this way, someone would find me and take me to her. I . . . just . . . knew. I have news for her.” One wonders what Moiraine is doing to pull off this effect. It might just be that her eyes-and-ears are entirely mundane and simply under instruction to play things up as magical influence; I certainly can't think of any magic in the series that Moiraine would have access to at present that could do this... but it's still early enough in the series that this might be the remnant of some idea of Jordan's that never came to fruition. quote:“It is possible to oppose evil without doing violence.” Her voice held the simplicity of someone stating an obvious truth. This feels like a lesson Perrin was meant to learn along the way but of course he never quite does, does he? Even at the end, when his dreamwalking could open him up to non-violent courses of action, he's still pretty much just locked in battle with Slayer and Lanfear. I can't even fully blame Sanderson for this because it's not like Jordan had any better ideas. quote:She gave him a penetrating look. “And yet you are not happy with your weapons.” For such a peaceful people, they sure do love annihilating their opponents with words. Perrin's got no argument... and again, he won't ever find that better way. quote:In the distance, the side of a mountain had been carved into the semblance of two towering forms. A man and a woman, Perrin thought they might be, though wind and rain had long since made that uncertain. Even Moiraine claimed to be unsure who they were supposed to be, or when the granite had been cut. Perhaps King Eawynd of Safer and his queen - or perhaps even him and Mabriam, to celebrate the Compact of the Ten Nations. Perhaps King Aedomon to celebrate his battles against Manetheren. Probably no one we've heard of though. quote:When he looked over his shoulder, she was casting worried glances up the steep slopes to either side. Scattered trees perched precariously above them. It appeared impossible they would not fall. The Shienarans rode easily, at last beginning to relax. Maybe it's just that I've been taking a break for a month, maybe it's changing the program I'm using for the ebooks, but I feel like this book has a bit more environmental description than the last one did. It makes it a bit harder to comment - Jordan's descriptions are all quite good so what is there to say - but it really builds up the isolation of this strange mountain camp. quote:A four-legged serpent scaled in gold and scarlet, golden maned like a lion, and its feet each tipped with five golden claws. A banner of legend. A banner most men would not know if they saw it, but would fear when they learned its name. The Pattern really made some interesting choices when it decided that the calling card of the Dragon shouldn't be immediately recognizable, didn't it?
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Apr 16, 2024 22:38
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Chapter 2: Saidin Thoughts This chapter starts with the dragon's fang symbol, probably because it's literally called "Saidin" and Rand will be loving things up with it. quote:All the women who came insisted on speaking to Moiraine immediately, and alone. The news that Moiraine chose to share with the rest of them did not always seem very important, but the women held the intensity of a hunter stalking the last rabbit in the world for his starving family. It's almost like they're working for an Aes Sedai, and not just any Aes Sedai but one of the few left who tries to live up to the old standard. I'd think that pretty important too unless I was literally dyingn of thirst. quote:Or ever, he added to himself. Moiraine had kept them there all winter. The Shienarans did not think she gave the orders, not here, but Perrin knew that Aes Sedai somehow always seemed to get their way. Especially Moiraine. I get that you're stir-crazy bro but do you really WANT to be wandering the wilderness in the middle of winter, fighting battles that you can avoid by staying still? What alternatives do you have other than "Don't do what Moiraine wants because she's Aes Sedai"? quote:“The Tinker woman is going to die,” she said softly, eyeing the others near the fires. None was close enough to hear. It's times like this you can remember why Min doesn't particularly want her powers. She's probably seen quite a few people who were going to die soon by this point, just because when you walk by so many people in a city it's bound to happen sooner or later. quote:“Is that her name? I wish I didn’t know. It always makes it worse, knowing and not being able to. . . . Perrin, I saw her own face floating over her shoulder, covered in blood, eyes staring. It’s never any clearer than that.” She shivered and rubbed her hands together briskly. I wonder if these omens she sees are realistic enough to be as traumatizing as seeing the actual thing. quote:He thought of the wolves. No! The scouts would find anyone or anything trying to approach the camp. Good job helping fulfill Min's prophecy, Perrin. Things might have been different if you'd used your resources to your fullest advantage. quote:She had told him; she had tried warning people about bad things when, at six or seven, she had first realized not everyone could see what she saw. She would not say more, but he had the impression that her warnings had only made matters worse, when they were believed at all. Poor Min. quote:It had made him cautious and careful, and regretful of his anger when he let it show. “I am sorry, Min. I shouldn’t have snapped at you. I did not mean to hurt you.” Really I think my problem with Perrin is that it's very obvious that he has completely over-corrected for problems in the past to the point where he's now too afraid to do much of anything on his own. quote:“Strange,” she said softly, “how you seem to care so much about the Tuatha’an. They are utterly peaceful, and I always see violence around—” He turned his head away, and she cut off abruptly. And again, it's other women tearing Perrin apart with words much more than him hurting them physically or emotionally. Perrin's problem is that at heart he absolutely agrees that violence is damaging even in self-defense but he exists in an Age where that self-defense is very necessary. quote:She rolled her eyes at Perrin, a wry twist to her mouth. “All I wanted was to live as I pleased, fall in love with a man I chose. . . .” Her cheeks reddened suddenly, and she cleared her throat. 1. Min, almost no one chooses who they fall in love with. 2. You're lucky you're blabbering in front of Perrin and Loial and not anyone with an understanding of love because for all your "don't like to talk about your visions" thing, you sure are signposting it for everyone. quote:The Ogier looked at them, suddenly shy, his ears twitching. “Promise you will not laugh? I think I might write a book about it. I have been taking notes.” Really, you could argue that Loial has hardly been swept up into the ta'veren stuff at all yet. If he'd met anyone so interesting as Rand and crew, he might have chosen to go traveling with them anyway. After all, his choosing to leave the groves had nothing to do with them. quote:Uno, who could hardly say a sentence without a curse, spoke now with the deepest respect. The others echoed him. “Honor to serve.” Masema, who saw ill in everything, and whose eyes now shone with utter devotion; Ragan; all of them, awaiting a command if it were Rand’s pleasure to give one. While Rand of course dislikes this treatment, I do think that having to deal with this for a few months is the start of his arrogance. You can't be treated like this by every normal person you spend time with without it starting to rub off on you. quote:And aside from Moiraine and Lan, there were only the three of them—Min, Loial, and him—who did not stare at Rand as if he stood above kings. And of the three only Perrin knew him from before. It's rather unfortunate that Perrin instinctively understands why Rand needs him here and tosses that aside much later on in the story. All three of the boys seem to backslide a bit as a result of what happens to them. quote:A man—a thing!—everyone was taught to loathe and fear from childhood. Only . . . it was hard to stop seeing the boy he had grown up with. How do you just stop being somebody’s friend? Prejudices - even really rational ones like "Don't trust the dudes who can and will melt you in their sleep" - tend to have a hard time sticking around in the face of empathy, which Perrin to his credit does have a lot of. It's why he's a little better at dealing with this stuff than Mat. quote:He began to laugh mirthlessly, his shoulders shaking. “I have the duty, because there isn’t anybody else, now is there?” Rand's not going mad from the taint here, but rather from the reality of his position finally setting in. The weight of the world is on his shoulders so it's understandable that he's cracking under the strain. And that more than anything is why Moiraine is right to have him wait - if he did go out onto the Plain in this state he'd probably snap in battle instead of thrive like he has before. quote:Perrin almost laughed himself, in confusion. “If you agree with her, why in the Light do you argue all the time?” “Because I have to do something. Or I’ll . . . I’ll—burst like a rotted melon!” Like Perrin, Rand's big problem in this sequence is that he doesn't have any viable alternatives and just whines a lot instead. There's a lot Rand could be doing (more training with Lan, trying to learn politics from Moiraine, studying with Loial, etc.) but instead of dedicating himself to his fate he just laments all the deaths that are happening in his name instead. This is naturally only going to lead to more problems down the line. quote:Rand shivered; despite the chill, there was sweat on his face. His eyes were still shut tight. “Oh, Light,” he groaned, “it pulls so.” Nope, this isn't taint madness either (I will be doing my best to demonstrate to you why NONE of his craziness in this book can be chalked up to that specifically). Remember: Rand is a wilder and he's still in that awkward "could easily draw enough power to burn himself out because he doesn't even know the proper exercises for starting out with the power" phase. quote:Rand stood with his head thrown back, his eyes still shut tight. He did not seem to feel the thrashing of the ground that had him now at one angle, now at another. His balance never shifted, no matter how he was tossed. Perrin could not be certain, being shaken as he was, but he thought Rand wore a sad smile. The trees flailed about, and the leatherleaf suddenly cracked in two, the greater part of its trunk crashing down not three paces from Rand. He noticed it no more than he noticed any of the rest. The land and Rand are one, so he externalizes his temper tantrum out onto the world to avoid having to acknowledge his actual feelings. quote:Rand looked around as if seeing things for the first time. The fallen leatherleaf, and the broken branches. There was, Perrin realized, surprisingly little damage. He had expected gaping rents in the earth. The wall of trees looked almost whole. And of course, Rand hasn't really addressed any of his internal issues so while he's a little disheveled, nothing has actually changed. quote:“They’re always there, dreams,” Rand said, so softly Perrin barely heard. “Maybe they tell us things. True things.” He fell silent, brooding. Rand is of course also snapping under the pressure of Ba'alsy's TAR campaign. The lack of good sleep is already catching up to him here and it's not going to be getting better anytime soon. Ah well. Next time: News!
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Apr 17, 2024 21:40
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Data Graham posted:Will be looking forward to this. It's what I've believed for quite a while, though lots of people blithely say he's "going mad" as an explanation of his actions all the time. Well, to be clear, I'm talking about Book 3. I do think taint madness affects him later on, I just think that the belief that Rand was very taint mad in book 3 and Jordan only backed off in the next book as a retcon to adapt to the expanded length of the story is incorrect and that Jordan is deliberately misleading the reader (which is why we spend so little time in Rand's head). I'll discuss his madness a lot over the course of the series though. And yeah, I will be pointing out the stuff the narrative glosses over and why.
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Apr 18, 2024 03:05
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Chapter 3: News from the Plain This chapter has a Wheel icon because... Moiraine talks about the weaving of the Wheel a lot, I guess. quote:Someday, perhaps, he could bring himself to ask her what she knew. An Aes Sedai must know more of it than he did. But this was not the time. There never seemed to be a time. Perrin, you've had like four months, plus the month you spent with her in Fal Dara. You are never going to ask her anything at this rate. quote:“An accident,” she said in a flat voice, then shook her head and vanished back inside the hut. The door banged shut a little loudly. I suspect Moiraine thinks that this was a deliberate act to try and gently caress up her meeting to punish her for not having a plan beyond "Wait". And since the temper tantrum is about that, she's not exactly wrong, just assigning more motivation to Rand than is fully there. quote:“If something goes wrong with it, it isn’t my fault. Rand spilled half of it on the fire with his. . . . What right does he have to bounce us around like sacks of grain?” Trust me Min, when Rand wants to be bouncing you around like a sack of grain, you will be enthusiastically consenting. quote:“Min, maybe you had better go. First thing in the morning. I have some silver I can let you have, and I’m sure Moiraine would give you enough to take passage with a merchant’s train out of Ghealdan. You could be back in Baerlon before you know it.” Perrin doesn't quite seem to understand that Min is going to inevitably see horrible poo poo no matter where she goes, short of becoming a hermit. It is a kind offer though. quote:“Just because fate has chosen something for you instead of you choosing it for yourself doesn’t mean it has to be bad. Even if it’s something you are sure you would never have chosen in a hundred years. ‘Better ten days of love than years of regretting,’” she quoted. It's a little funny that Min has a deep understanding of the existentialism necessary to function in her present times but has absolutely nothing to do with Rand coming to understand it himself. quote:He thought he had said that too softly for her to hear, but the look she gave him was full of sympathy. And agreement. Min probably knows that even when Perrin goes home it won't be home anymore. Perhaps she even sees his parents' grave at this point. Maybe even his sisters', though perhaps they haven't been retconned into existence by the Pattern yet. quote:Careless. He had grown so used to the Shienarans knowing how well he could see—in daylight at least; they did not know about the night—that he was beginning to slip about other things. Carelessness might kill me yet. Yeah, you definitely don't want to confide about your awful extrasensory perception to Min. She wouldn't know anything about that and hates anyone with magical talents they shouldn't have. She'd totally turn Perrin into the Whitecloaks if she knew he was a freak. quote:Min sounded so troubled that Perrin was surprised for a moment. Then he nodded to himself. She did not really like doing what she did, but it was a part of her; she thought she knew how it worked, or some of it, at least. If she was wrong, it would almost be like finding out she did not know how to use her own hands. See what I mean? They have absolutely nothing in common. I can only assume that there was a glitch in the Pattern this winter and that all the friendship that Perrin should be feeling towards Min got assigned to Mat accidentally instead (see book 14). quote:Perrin made an involuntary sound in his throat. Light, did I sound like that? I won’t let a death matter that little to me. As if he had spoken aloud, Moiraine looked at him. It's rather funny to see early!Perrin on the other side of the "I understand your emotions better than you're trying to let on to me" exchange. quote:Perrin shifted—the Horn was where no Hunter on Almoth Plain would find it; where he hoped no Hunter ever would find it—and she gave him a cool look before continuing. Seriously, Perrin apparently learned one hell of a lesson from Moiraine. And it's good to see the Hunters of the Horn aren't all total idiots. They should have arrived ages back. quote:“Or the first part of it. The Children have announced that their purpose is to bring peace, which is not unusual for them. What is unusual is that while they are trying to force the Taraboners and the Domani back across their respective borders, they have not moved in any force against those who have declared for the Dragon.” Lan suspects this is a Whitecloak plot, but it's probably Carridin trying to thread the needles of his orders. By always letting Dragonsworn get away, he can seem to both being trying to kill them and not. quote:“One died by poison, two by the knife. Each in circumstances where no one should have been able to come close unseen, but that is how it happened.” She peered into the flames. “All three young men were taller than most, and had light-colored eyes. Light eyes are uncommon on Almoth Plain, but I think it is very unlucky right now to be a tall young man with light eyes there.” These are the victims of Grey Men presumably deployed by the Forsaken who actively hate Rand, or perhaps Moghedien who is vaguely in the area. Striking unseen is very much her MO. Again though, the Dark One doesn't want Rand dead so it's not the official plan. quote:“So nothing has changed,” Perrin said glumly. “Not really. We cannot go down to the plain, and the Dark One wants us dead.” Moiraine, I've given Perrin a lot of poo poo so far this book so now it's your turn. He's accurately summarized the situation as it stands: your current plans aren't changing. You're just muttering a bunch of nonsense to seem mystical. quote:Since it is not possible to set two kinds of warding at once, I leave the scouts and the guards—and Lan—to defend us, and use the one warding that may do some good. I don't recall if this comes up again. If not, I bet that one of the things the bright new minds of the Fourth Age will come up with is creating new ward weaves that are effectively combos while still obeying the one weave rule. Though obviously they won't be worrying about Shadowspawn at that point. quote:He had a hut to himself, a small thing of logs barely tall enough to stand in, the chinks filled with dried mud. A rough bed, padded with pine boughs beneath a blanket, took up nearly half of it. Whoever had unsaddled his horse had also propped his bow just inside the door. Where Rand and Mat are equal parts panicked and embarrassed over being treated like nobility, Perrin is not really good enough with people to even find it worthy of comment that for some reason he gets his own hut. He probably just assumes he should for the same reason that Loial and Min probably do, even though there'd be different reasons for each. Ah well, we can only hope that at some point, perhaps ten to sixty years after Tarmon Gaidon, Perrin will be just a wee bit better at social cues. Next time: A dream sequence!
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Apr 18, 2024 22:32
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Data Graham posted:Don't we find out later that the Dragonsworn (or at least some of them) are a false flag by Niall to justify a Whitecloak takeover of various countries? We do, but Carridin isn't told about that false flag in the prologue and leaves almost immediately, so I don't know that HE knows that. And as you note, this only applies to SOME of the groups. It doesn't explain why he's not messing up any of them.
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Apr 18, 2024 23:29
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TDR Chapter 4: Shadows Sleeping Thoughts Or, "Will Ravenson ever standardize how he starts these forum posts?" Probably not. This chapter has a wolf icon because Perrin's diving straight into the wolf dream. quote:So you will give it up, then. It is the best thing for you. Come. Sit, and we will talk.” Ishamael has noticed that the boys never do what he says, so he figures it's time to tell them to do the things that would be best for them so that they won't do them. No, just kidding, that would be competent of him and he's still in crazy pants mode until he respawns. He's actually trying to cause Perrin to take up the Way of the Leaf in the hopes that in about fifteen minutes, when the Fades arrive, our boy will be too stupid to immediately reevaluate his philosophy and let the Shadow kill him. quote:Perrin had not realized the axe was there, had not felt the weight of it pulling at his belt. He ran a hand over the half-moon blade and the thick spike that balanced it. The steel felt—solid. More solid than anything else there. Maybe even more solid than he was himself. All of this is a dire warning sign since we're in T'A'R, but since Perrin doesn't know that yet, we can hardly blame him for not appreciating that symbolism. quote:“At least have a drink with me. To years past and years to come. Here, you will see things more clearly after.” The cup the man pushed across the table had not been there a moment before. It shone bright silver, and dark, blood-red wine filled it to the brim. While most of the Fair Folk stuff in WoT is of course covered by the Finn, I think that the stuff about eating and drinking may well be ancient memories of what dreamers can do in T'A'R. quote:A gilded helmet, worked like a lion’s head, sat on his head as if it belonged there. Gold leaf covered his ornately hammered breastplate, and gold-work embellished the plate and mail on his arms and legs. Only the axe at his side was plain. A voice—his own—whispered in his mind that he would take it over any other weapon, had carried it a thousand times, in a hundred battles. No! He wanted to take it off, throw it away. I can’t! Perrin's mistake is in thinking his situation is such that it's only a dream. I'm pretty sure it's Lanfear he's hearing, not himself, and that Lanfear has no more knowledge of Perrin's other lives than anyone else. quote:“Yes,” he whispered. Inside him, startlement fought with acceptance. He had no use for glory. But when she said it, he wanted nothing else. Let the record show: When Perrin laments that Rand is better at girls than he is, the fact that Rand doesn't immediately turn into a glory hound at Lanfear's demand proves Perrin right. The jury is still out on where Mat fits into the rankings. quote:“You don’t know the half of what you are. Of what you can be. Come, share a cup with me, to destiny and glory.” There was a shining silver cup in her hand, filled with blood-red wine. “Drink.” Pretty rare to see Ishamael and Lanfear on the same page. I'm not sure if she's only accidentally mimicking him or if they're working together for the same general purpose of pulling Perrin away from Rand (Mat, being further away and tainted besides, needs no special attention). Obviously even if they're working together Lanfear wants to screw over Ishamael as soon as possible, it's her nature. quote:Everywhere he looked, left and right, up or down, were more bridges, more spires, and railless ramps. There seemed no end to them, no pattern. Worse, some of those ramps climbed to spire tops that had to be directly above the ones they had left. Some suggest that this is either the Ways in T'A'R or a memory thereof, but I think it's just convergent evolution and that Lanfear's gone to a dream shard the Forsaken made, unaware that Perrin's got the skills to follow her through. quote:On a bridge slightly below him, and much closer than the ramp where the woman had been, a man suddenly appeared, tall and dark and slender, the silver in his black hair giving him a distinguished look, his dark green coat thickly embroidered with golden leaves. This is Rahvin, for the record. quote:Another man started across the bridge from the other side, his appearance as sudden as the first man’s. Black stripes ran down the puffy sleeves of his red coat, and pale lace hung thick at his collar and cuffs. And Be'lal. quote:The first two men stood side by side, now, made uncomfortable allies by the presence of the newcomer. He shouted at them and shook his fist, while they shifted uneasily, refusing to meet his glares. If the two hated each other, they feared him more. Considering Rahvin's raw strength and Be'lal's skills at subterfuge, their abject terror of Ishamael is pretty interesting. Are they only afraid of the modern him, stark raving mad from centuries of isolation, or was this how they would have responded to him in the Age of Legends as well? quote:A prickling in the hair on the back of his neck made him look up. On a ramp above him and to the right, a shaggy gray wolf stood looking at him. Naturally this freaks Perrin the gently caress out even though it's likely that the only reason he didn't die in the fireball Ishamael made was that the wolves "just a weave"-d it. (Also: Hi Hopper! Who's a good boy?) quote:A sword, hanging hilt down in the air, apparently without support, seemingly where anyone could reach out and take it. It revolved slowly, as if some breath of air caught it. Yet it was not really a sword. I beg you to remember that Callandor, no matter how many times Rand misuses it along the way, is not a weapon. It's not really a sword. It's a trap. quote:Callandor. Who wields me wields destiny. Take me, and begin the final journey. Is Callandor just calling to anyone who can find it in T'A'R? Is it programmed to respond to ta'veren who find it there enough times because no one foresaw Mat and Perrin's existence? Of course not. Perrin is now pushing his way into a dream meant for Rand, same way he pushed his way into that private conversation. No wonder our other boy is so impatient, putting up with months of manipulation by the shadow. quote:The thought was clear in his head, but the thought was not his own. And of course, the Shadow descends to cause chaos while it's trying to keep Rand busy, to maximize his despair, and immediately after trying to get Perrin to become a pacifist, to minimize his response against them. Unfortunately (or rather, fortunately), they have no idea how to talk to Third Agers so none of their schemes fully work out. Next time: The Twisted Ones!
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Apr 19, 2024 21:44
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its HIM posted:Interesting bit from Brandon’s C2E2 Q&A. When he proposed Perrin wound Master Luhhan as an alternative to the fridging, he actually wrote it out for them. He said Rafe fought hard for the change but it was the Amazon execs that refused to allow it. He implies Amazon’s meddling is an ongoing issue. That would explain quite a lot. I was quite baffled by Rafe adding a fridging sequence considering that many of the other changes to the show suggest he wouldn't be the type.
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Apr 27, 2024 20:19
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The Dragon Reborn Chapter 5: Nightmares Walking Thoughts This chapter has the Trolloc triptych because we're getting a Shadowspawn attack. quote:He opened his mouth to shout warning, and suddenly the door of Moiraine’s hut burst open and Lan dashed out, sword in hand and shouting, “Trollocs! Wake, for your lives! Trollocs!” Perrin, with the magical help of an entire pack of wolves, is only ALMOST as fast to respond to a crisis as Lan. That man's real loving badass, y'know? (But also: Perrin is fighting his powers every step of the way and Lan's got two decades of experience with his own supernatural aid. It's only a matter of time before Perrin makes Lan look like the chump.) quote:The Tuatha’an woman pressed her back against the log wall, a hand to her throat. The light from the burning trees showed him the pain and horror, the loathing on her face as she watched the carnage. I was just reading some stuff iliiuan had to say on the Tuatha'an before I got into this chapter so let me just note: Leya's priorities are all out of whack here if Perrin's reliably relating her emotions. She's not keeping herself safe, she's just being judgy about violence happening in her vicinity. And it kills her. quote:All that mattered was that he had to reach Leya, had to get her to safety, and the Trolloc was in the way. Perrin's desperation to do the right thing even though of course he could easily write Leya off as an inevitability (and an inconvenience until the inevitable happens to boot) is why he's a hero, you know? I'll be giving this boy the most poo poo out of anyone but he tries to save someone's life even though he knows he can't and that's something. quote:The stink of it filled his nostrils, goat-stench and sour man-sweat. It's good to know that Trollocs produce all the scents available to them instead of just limiting themselves to one or the other. And by good I obviously mean gross, but since I read it you have to too! quote:She was still there, huddled in front of the hut, not more than ten paces upslope. And watching him with such a look on her face that he could barely meet her eyes. Leya's zealotry may be a formative trauma for Perrin I think. quote:Suddenly Leya moved, throwing herself forward, attempting to wrap her arms around the Myrddraal’s legs. Well that's great and all Leya but isn't restraining someone so they can't move a very light form of violence? Like good... well good may be strong, but some kind of positive adjective... effort trying to protect Perrin and all but if you tripped the Fade isn't that causing it physical harm? Where is the line for the Tuatha'an? Did she in the last moment of her life betray her own beliefs for nothing? Concerning if so. quote:“Fade,” Perrin said roughly, but then a different name came to him, from the wolves. Trollocs, the Twisted Ones, made during the War of the Shadow from melding men and animals, were bad enough, but the Myrddraal—. “Neverborn!” Young Bull spat. Half the reason we don't get Rand POVs much in this book is that Perrin's stealing his TGH schtick of losing himself in his newfound powers. I think this is something of a leftover from the proto-Tam character who was going to be Jesus AND the luckiest SOB ever AND a werewolf AND probably a really good shot I guess or whatever that fourth kid was supposed to contribute. Being easily replaceable, maybe? quote:The urge to rush down the slope and join his brothers, join in killing the Twisted Ones, in hunting the remaining Neverborn, was strong, but a buried fragment that was still man remembered. Leya. Perrin will of course spend this book (and the next... ten?) afraid that he might turn into a werewolf forever because of an encounter, but we see right here that this isn't a risk for him because he's always got stuff to pull him back. Leya's barely in the list of ten most recent people he talked to but he won't abandon his humanity for her sake - how much less likely is he to abandon it once he's got Faile? quote:He no longer thought of the greater battle. There was only the Trolloc he and the wolves—the brothers—cut off from the rest and brought down. Then there would be another, and another, and another, until none were left. None here, none anywhere. Obviously this is a terrible viewpoint to adapt if you're trying to be the strategy guy, but since Perrin isn't that anyway and the battle isn't reliant on such things, it actually works for him here. He's also more aware of himself than he was with the Whitecloaks, showing he's developed a little with his powers even if he's afraid of them. quote:Young Bull threw back his head and howled with her, mourned with her. Note that while Min's obviously freaked out by Perrin embracing his inner furry, she's not exactly treating him like a freak show either. Like I said, she'd probably be very supportive if she knew the details. quote:Frantically he walled himself off from contact with the wolves. Images seeped through, emotions, as he tried to stop them. Finally, though, he could no longer feel them, feel their pain, or their anger, or the desire to hunt the Twisted Ones, or to run. . . . Again we can kind of see how the proto-Tam's various aspects would have tied into a central character arc, with rejecting the naturalistic wolf expression being just one more way he would have been hardening himself and just one more thing he'd need to embrace to be the full hero at the end. quote:The Shienarans still standing—so few—lifted their blades and joined him. “Tai’shar Manetheren! Tai’shar Andor!” Hell, even the Shienarans aren't that judgmental since they are already following Rand around. quote:But when he was with the wolves, it was all so different. He did not have to worry about strangers being afraid of him just because he was big, then. There was no one thinking he was slow-witted just because he tried to be careful. Wolves knew each other even if they had never met before, and with them he was just another wolf. Is it wrong that occasionally I think Perrin might be a little bit on the spectrum? quote:“A sign to confirm our faith. Even wolves came to fight for the Dragon Reborn. In the Last Battle, the Lord Dragon will summon even the beasts of the forest to fight at our sides. It is a sign for us to go forth. Only Darkfriends will fail to join us.” Masema is of course foreshadowing his delightful nonsense, showcasing how he was still corrupted by Fain, and letting Jordan make it subtly clear that the real Last Battle will be more complicated. It's not just Darkfriends who won't be on the side of the Light, even at the very end. quote:Do you know what I did during the fight?” Still staring into the distance, Rand addressed the night. “Nothing! Nothing useful. At first, when I reached out for the True Source, I couldn’t touch it, couldn’t grasp it. It kept sliding away. Then, when I finally had hold of it, I was going to burn them all, burn all the Trollocs and Fades. And all I could do was set fire to some trees.” Rand's an incredible channeler, but even he needs a teacher. quote:“We . . . dealt with them, Rand,” Perrin said. He shivered, thinking of all the wounded men down below. And the dead. Better that than the mountain down on top of us. “We didn’t need you.” And likewise, in the final conflict, no one will be needing Rand to deal with the individual Shadowspawn and even if he could deal with them to keep the people alive it would be a waste of everyone's time. quote:There had been a man, Elyas Machera, who also could talk to wolves. Elyas ran with the wolves all the time, yet seemed able to remember he was a man. But he had never told Perrin how he did it, and Perrin had not seen him in a long time. Sorry Perrin, but he doesn't really pull it off anywhere near well enough for your standards. quote:He gasped and almost dropped his axe. He could feel the skin on his back crawling, muscles writhing as they knit back together. His shoulder quivered uncontrollably, and everything blurred. Cold seared him to the bone, then deeper still. He had the impression of moving, falling, flying; he could not tell which, but he felt as if he were rushing—somewhere, somehow—at great speed, forever. Another reminder that the best modern Aes Sedai have for healing at this point is emergency care, which works but definitely isn't the good stuff. Moiraine even tells him to eat afterward. quote:“Most of the wolves who were hurt made their own way to the forest,” Moiraine said, knuckling her back and stretching, “but I Healed those I could find.” Perrin gave her a sharp look, yet she seemed to be just making conversation. “Perhaps they came for their own reasons, yet we would likely all be dead without them.” Moiraine is nice enough to try and thank Perrin subtly, but of course he's much too suspicious for any of that. quote:“If you could get me to Shayol Ghul now,” Rand said drowsily, “by Waygate or Portal Stone, there could be an end to it. No more dying. No more dreams. No more.” It would obviously have a terrible ending, but a fanfic of Moiraine somehow taking sleep-deprived Rand to Shayol Ghul and just kind of hoping for the best would be hysterical. This Rand might not be as traumatized as he's going to be, but I still think assuming he'd last five minutes before agreeing to let the Dark One unmake reality is overly generous. quote:“That’s right,” Rand said bitterly. “I’m not to be trusted. Lews Therin Kinslayer killed everyone close to him. Maybe I’ll do the same before I am done.” If Perrin or Mat had tried sassing Lan like this they would have learned what their pancreas looked like once chopped in half before finishing the second sentence, so while Lan's toxic masculinity is of course only adding to the Dragonmount of psychological issues Rand's going to need to deal with, let's also reflect that it's still him going easy on his favorite boy. Next time: Ingtar leads the crew out of Fal Dara, Rand finds out Moiraine hosed with his belongings again, and Lanf-- Wait no. Sorry. That was LAST book's chapter "The Hunt Begins". Next time we read THIS book's version, which probably has a lot less Ingtar due to his having a prior commitment. Also much less Rand on account of his running away.
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Apr 29, 2024 22:25
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The Dragon Reborn Chapter 6: The Hunt Begins Thoughts This chapter has a Wheel icon now that Rand's embraced his destiny and ditched the party - and because Perrin will be embracing his as well. quote:“Rand is gone,” was all Lan said before he left at a run, but it was more than enough. When Lan's hustling, you know hell is breaking loose. quote:“You’re from his village,” Masema said hoarsely. “You must know. Why did the Lord Dragon abandon us? What sin did we commit?” You didn't kill those Shadowspawn quickly enough, Masema. Rand only hangs out with people whose DPS is in the three digits. quote:Min sat cross-legged on the dirt floor beside the door that led to Moiraine’s room, while the Aes Sedai paced back and forth in thought. Dark thoughts, they must have been. Three paces each way was all she had, but she made vigorous use of the space, the calm on her face belied by the quickness of her step. Moiraine has got to be really tired of Rand going off her script, since she still has not learned that she does not get to direct the plot. quote:He made himself meet her look with one just as level and firm. It was not easy. He loomed over her, but she was Aes Sedai. “Is this of your making, Moiraine? Did you rein him in until he was so impatient he’d go anywhere, do anything, just to stop sitting still?” Perrin is being extra petty here considering he understands her state of mind at this state of affairs just fine. quote:What I do, I do because there is no other way. He is hunting me again, and this time one of us has to die, I think. There is no need for those around me to die, also. Too many have died for me already. I do not want to die either, and will not, if I can manage it. There are lies in dreams, and death, but dreams hold truth, too. Perrin is right though that Moiraine's holding Rand in place is why he's snapped so hard from the dream pressure, though in her defense she probably was not remotely aware of the level of influence that the Forsaken were wielding because the boys never tell her anything. Already we can see how the distrust among the light side is causing them problems. quote:“I’ll go easy when she answers me. Well, Moiraine?” You can't blame Perrin for not trusting Moiraine for refusing to communicate openly with him, and you can't blame Moiraine for being pissed that she's still being treated with outright hostility when she's shown she's firmly on their side. That said, it is Moiraine who needs to change more, because the Aes Sedai attitude contributes nothing to the proceedings. quote:The seals are weakening, Perrin. Some are broken, though the world does not know that. Must not know that. The Father of Lies is not free. Yet. But as the seals weaken, more and more, which of the Forsaken may be loosed already? Lanfear? Sammael? Asmodean, or Be’lal, or Ravhin? Ishamael himself, the Betrayer of Hope? They were thirteen altogether, Perrin, and bound in the sealing, not in the prison that holds the Dark One. Thirteen of the most powerful Aes Sedai of the Age of Legends, the weakest of them stronger than the ten strongest Aes Sedai living today, the most ignorant with all the knowledge of the Age of Legends. And every man and woman of them gave up the Light and dedicated their souls to the Shadow. What if they are free, and out there waiting for him? I will not let them have him.” And Perrin, for his part, needs to appreciate when Moiraine is being relatively open. It makes sense that she's frozen up a bit in fear of the Forsaken being loose, especially since she doesn't know that Rand's already been grappling with Ish or Lanfear. Sadly, Perrin's not really ready for the full understanding of what the Last Battle being upon them. quote:He looked at the others—they were all watching him fixedly, even Min—then hesitantly told of the one dream that seemed unusual to him, the dream that came every night. The dream of the sword he could not touch. He did not mention the wolf that had appeared in the last. Note as well that where Moiraine's open caginess causes problems with everyone because they know they can't trust her, she's constantly getting surprised by their quiet caginess. Some real hypocrisy by the boys. quote:“My dreams are always the same, Moiraine Sedai. The groves, and the Great Trees, and the stedding. We Ogier always dream of the stedding when we are away from them.” I wonder if they're true dreams in T'A'R and if perhaps humans who get too far away from the Earth have similar dreams. quote:What does it mean that he ‘shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf’? What does it meant that he ‘shall bind the nine moons to serve him’? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What ‘wounds of madness and cutting of hope’ has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? These are much more straightforward prophecies to intrepret than some, at least, referring as they do to the Aiel, binding the Seanchan to the peace, the cleansing of saidin, and the general societal upheavals he brings about. quote:Perrin grunted softly. The Stone would never fall till the Dragon Reborn held Callandor. How in the Light is he supposed to reach it—inside a bloody fortress!—before the fortress falls? It is madness! Even ignoring the "sneak in" approach that Rand ultimately takes, it's not like he couldn't just get hired as a guard or servant who works there and find his way to Callandor. The people in-universe treat this sequence of events like it's a lot more paradoxical than it really is. quote:Especially on those who are—susceptible. I do not believe Rand did it on purpose, but the dreams of those touching the True Source can be powerful. For one as strong as he, they could possibly seize an entire village, or perhaps even a city. He knows little of what he does, and even less of how to control it.” I guess this is a better explanation than wolf dream, considering that half the Shienarians have it. One wonders why Min was exempt though, besides the plot contrivance that she'd definitely have told Moiraine after the second night. quote:“There’s always something new from you,” Perrin growled. “Can’t you tell us what to expect once in a while, instead of explaining after it happens?” Uno looked as though he was trying to think of a reason to leave. Uno wishes he had a pipe to study. quote:Lan looked at Uno, and the one-eyed man shrugged in dismay. “I bloody forgot, with all this flaming talk about bloo—” He cleared his throat, shooting a glance at Moiraine. She looked back expectantly, and he went on. Uno should be allowed to swear more. quote:“Watch your tongue, blacksmith,” Lan growled, all ice and stone. I'm glad someone will call out Perrin on his bullshit a bit because he's being very annoying at this point. You'd think Min at least would speak up. quote:Few women seek audiences with the Amyrlin herself, but it does happen, and it should occasion no great comment. Moiraine, have you forgotten that folks already know who Min is? Ms. Unknown Power coming back after having disappeared with three runaways and making a request few women do will be all over the Tower within half an hour of her walking through the city gates AND SHE WON'T HAVE EVEN HAD TIME TO GET TO THE TOWER BY THAT POINT. quote:Once outside, Min hung back for a moment to address Lan with a too-sweet smile. “And is there any message you want carried? To Nynaeve, perhaps?” Min, I know you're pissed at Moiraine, but don't take it out on Lan. He's relatively innocent. quote:Loial shook his head. “I think she asked because she knew what we would answer, Min. Moiraine seems able to read Perrin and me; she knows what we’ll do. But you are a closed book to her.” Min getting constant supernatural intervention does make her harder to predict, it's true. quote:“Don’t be more thickheaded than you have to be, Perrin. Back there, right after you said you’d go. They were not there before. They must have to do with this journey. Or at least with you deciding to go.” The question is, does the Pattern allow him to not go (and thus... end up at Two Rivers early and have to deal with the Whitecloaks stuff solo), or does the Pattern only give him the chance to go willingly and it's still going to drag him along regardless, just in a much more humiliating fashion? quote:“An Aielman in a cage,” she said promptly. “A Tuatha’an with a sword. A falcon and a hawk, perching on your shoulders. Both female, I think. And all the rest, of course. What is always there. Darkness swirling ’round you, and—” The former, then. If Perrin hadn't gone with Moiraine, he'd either never meet Gaul, Aram, Faile or Berelain or at least wouldn't have them relevant in his life until later. Thank you Min, for having such easy visions for a change. quote:“One more thing,” she said slowly. “If you meet a woman—the most beautiful woman you’ve ever seen—run!” Perrin won't, of course. I wonder what encounter with Lanfear Jordan must have had in mind. quote:Perrin did not like jumping to conclusions—it was one of the reasons some people thought him slow-witted—but he totaled up a number of things Min had said in the last few days and came to a startling conclusion. His conclusion is that Min is in love with him. Perrin, to think you were slow-witted would imply you had wits at all. You take five days to come to the least plausible conclusion. quote:“I’m bound to him as surely as a stave is bound to the barrel. But I can’t see if he’ll ever love me in return. And I am not the only one.” Of course, Min doesn't seem to realize that Rand definitely has the hots for her, so Perrin still isn't the stupidest person in this conversation. Perrin Aybara for Two Rivers King! Most Competent Man in the West! (By Default) quote:“If there’s no safety in Tar Valon, there’s no safety anywhere.” Now you're getting it! Next time: We finally get this show on the road.
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Apr 30, 2024 22:34
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bio347 posted:I dunno about this one. The Heart is apparently not trivial to gain access to, and so while Rand getting into the Stone itself without shenanigans might have been pretty doable, actually getting the sword might not have been. On the other hand, Be'lal definitely would've just let Rand in had he walked up to the place because of his very incredibly stupid plan. I'm just highlighting the strangeness of the in universe perspective. There's two clear ways to get the sword (conquest or subterfuge) and people being told conquest is off the table don't seem to be able to understand that subterfuge isn't.
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May 1, 2024 22:24
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Gwaihir posted:I like your posts on these a lot, btw! Thank you! We'll see what you think in sixteen years when I get to book 10. The Dragon Reborn Chapter 7: The Way Out of the Mountains Thoughts This chapter starts with a Flame of Tar Valon icon because Moiraine goes fishing. quote:Lan spent most of his time scouting their path on his black warhorse, Mandarb, following Rand’s tracks as the rest of them followed the signs the Warder left for them. An arrow of stones laid out on the ground, or one lightly scratched in the rock wall of a forking pass. Lan and Mandarb get all the more impressive when you consider that in addition to leading the way, he's probably also doubling around them (unnoticed by Perrin) and clearing out the signs he leaves behind so no one else can follow. quote:Her reply was always very much the same. “If you cannot move any faster than this, perhaps I should send you off to Myrelle before you get any older. Well, perhaps that can wait, but you must move us faster.” Moiraine, I love you but what the gently caress? Lan is doing an incredible job and you're joking about sending him off to get raped because it's not good enough for you. quote:“No day soon,” Lan said, and surprisingly, there was open anger in his voice. “Never, if I can help it. You will outlive me long, Moiraine Aes Sedai!” She probably will, but how much longer, I wonder. Did the Finn steal her longevity when they stole her strength, or will she still age according to the power level she was born with? If the former, then she might not even have two centuries of lifespan in her. (Also note how touchy Lan is, to use such a formal address.) quote:“As difficult as that?” Moiraine murmured. Her hands slipped into the water—and a moment later came out with a splash, holding a fat trout that thrashed the surface. She laughed with delight as she tossed it up onto the bank. Perrin thinks it's luck because Perrin is very, very silly. Also he doesn't know that she's best friends with a former fisherwoman. quote:Perrin thought about reminding her that whoever took the fish was supposed to clean them, too, but just at that moment she caught his eye. There was no particular expression on her smooth face, but her dark eyes did not waver, and they appeared to know what he was going to say, and to have dismissed it out of hand already. Perrin, be grateful that the nice witch caught you a huge dinner. Another problem with not communicating is that of course Moiraine is probably doing useful magic tricks like this all the time with exactly as much fanfare and while effortlessly keeping her composure so Perrin has no idea that as far as the party dynamics are concerned, he and to a lesser degree Loial are the potential dead weight. quote:“I doubt she sees it that way. First she had to put up with Rand arguing with her all the time, and now you’re ready to take over for him. As a rule, Aes Sedai do not let anyone argue with them. I expect she means to have us back in the habit of doing what she says by the time we reach the first village.” Loial's probably got a point too about Moiraine's Aes Sedai pride influencing her behavior. She likely strongly feels that she hosed up by giving Rand too much independence (even though really the boy needs as much as he can get) and is aiming for damage control by being extra lovely about things to Lan and Perrin as well. quote:Loial gave in to it as inevitable, but not Perrin. He tried refusing, resisting, but it was hard to resist when she made a reasonable suggestion, and a small one at that. Only there was always another suggestion behind it, as reasonable and small as the first, and then another. The simple force of her presence, the strength of her gaze, made it difficult to protest. Perrin is getting worked over like he's saidar and it's a little funny. quote:He accused her of using the One Power on him, though he did not really think that was it, and she told him not to be a fool. It is indeed very unlikely that she's Compelling him when she's just so good at social engineering. quote:The wolves should not have been there. Wolves avoided places where men were, but Perrin could still sense them, an unseen screen and escort ringing the mounted party. The wolves are of course sticking around because Noam's also in the area. Short chapter, huh? Next time: Fourteen hundred weddings and no funerals!
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May 2, 2024 22:20
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I assume I'll be permabanned for doubleposting, so it was nice sharing my thoughts with you all! The Dragon Reborn Chapter 8: Jarra Thoughts This chapter begins with a wolf icon because Perrin is going to be meeting another Wolfbrother. quote:For an instant Perrin’s nose caught another odor, one he could not identify, a faint trail that raised the hair on the back of his neck with its vileness. Then it was gone. But he was sure something had passed that way, something—wrong. He scrubbed at his nose as if to rub away the memory of it. Perrin is smelling a Grey Man. This shows that Rand's fleeing the camp was absolutely the right call; the boy was perhaps a week away from being found in the camp by a Gray Man if he'd stayed after the battle. quote:“I beg your pardon, good mistress. You have come far? Have you word of the Great Hunt? The Hunt for the Horn of Valere? Or the false Dragon? It’s said there’s a false Dragon in Tarabon. Or maybe Arad Doman.” An unappreciated Aes Sedai oath loophole is found in how Lan answers for Moiraine, since he is able to lie freely and pretend that he doesn't know the Hunt is over and the Dragon is real. quote:Why, we’ve had a lifetime of weddings. A plague of them. All in the last two days. There isn’t a woman old enough to speak the betrothal remains unmarried, not in the whole village, not for a mile in any direction. Why, even Widow Jorath dragged old Banas through the arches, and they’d both sworn they’d never marry again. I'm really curious as to what all the Wheel is weaving that needs this village's entire future genealogy (and legal inheritance, since Jorath and a few of the other ladies married probably aren't ever going to have kids but now set things up for heirlooms to pass down in certain ways) fixed by Rand. Will little old Jarra become a new Two Rivers, filled with channelers in just a few years with a lot of latent genes lining up properly? Will they produce a bunch of Wolfbrothers instead (they are in Ghaeldan, part of the Kingdom of the West Perrin never got)? Something new? quote:“That’s very interesting,” Perrin said when Simion paused to yawn again, “but have you seen a young—” Perrin: I don't like to talk until I've had a second to think things over because I don't want people to think I'm stupid. I'm not stupid. Also Perrin: Hello random stranger! Want to hear the exact reason I'm in town? quote:Loial had to duck low under the lintel, and the ceiling inside only cleared his head by a foot. He kept rumbling to himself about not understanding why so few humans remembered the Ogier. It's because you all have a worse outreach program than the White Tower, which is saying a lot. quote:Master Harod got to his feet slowly, eyes fastened on Loial, smoothing his apron all the while. It's not clear if Harod is fat, but given that he doesn't cause any real grief we should assume he's at least pleasantly plump like all the other good innkeepers except... whoever it was I pointed out that was something of an exception. I really need to be better at remembering stuff. quote:Master Harod began explaining about Ogier, making it sound as if he were quite familiar with them. Most of what Perrin heard before they left the voices behind was wrong. Loial’s ears twitched without stop. I don't know about you guys, but I'm giving this place a five star review on Trip Advisor. quote:The man looked at her sharply before answering. Perrin did not think anyone else saw how sharply, in the dimness. I bet Moiraine and Lan have a pretty good idea, Perrin, though it is odd to have such a strong reaction to such a simple question. Despite his later statement, this is the point where Simion's convinced than Moiraine's an Aes Sedai pursuing Rand (due to her intense interest in the Children), but he doesn't understand why. quote:Good master, you carry that axe like you know how to use it, but it isn’t so easy to face up to men with swords and armor and all, when all you know how to use is a broom or a hoe. Perrin doesn't even reflect on this, unaware of how he's changed in this regard. He's way too focused on the supernatural parts of his journey to appreciate that he probably looks like a really scary dude at this point. quote:All these weddings and Whitecloaks are all very well, but I’d sooner know if Rand stopped here, and which way he went when he left. That smell couldn’t have been him. I can't even blame Perrin for not understanding that all of this commotion is proof enough because Moiraine has never properly infodumped on ta'veren, Loial-- No, Loial would have told Perrin everything if he'd cared to listen so I can fully blame Perrin. But I'm still not going to, to be nice. He's being a bit of a jerk lately but it's hard to know what you need to take notes on and what you don't when you're running around with two different magical artifacts, the Messiah, and a bunch of characters who match the archetypes of all the fairy tales you've ever known. quote:“No reason, good master. He was an odd fellow, that’s all. He talked to himself, sometimes, and sometimes he laughed when nobody had said anything. Slept in this very room, last night, or part of it. Woke us all in the middle of the night, yelling. It was just a nightmare, but he wouldn’t stay any longer. Master Harod didn’t make much effort to talk him into it, after all that noise.” Remember that Perrin and crew have been pursuing Rand for days at this point. Our boy's been in the woods, by himself, and dealing with Ishamael's latest campaign. All of this is clear sleep deprivation and the awkward position of knowing he's the chosen one and thus being able to find random asides much more meaningful than people think. quote:“I knew it,” Simion said, bouncing on his toes. “I knew she could help as soon as I saw you. Which way? East, good master. East, like the Dark One himself was on his heels. Do you think she’ll help me? Help my brother, that is? Noam’s bad sick, and Mother Roon says she can’t do anything.” It's gotta be real awkward discussing taint madness with friends and relatives of the victim. Simion's quite relieved by his interpretation of what Perrin said, that they're pursuing Rand to gentle him. quote:Stupid question! The right question is, what does he mean to do about it? There you go, Perrin. quote:“Of course,” the Ogier boomed. Simion gave a start when Loial’s hand swallowed his shoulder. “He will show me my room, and we will talk. Tell me, Simion, what do you know of trees?” I'd say "Poor Simion, thinking that Loial is about to unleash Ogier violence on him in the most arboreal way possible", but anyone who could look at Loial for more than two seconds and see anything more than the world's most literate teddy bear deserves what they get. quote:Perrin squared his feet to face the Warder. That was easier than facing Moiraine’s glare. “How could we find out whether he had been here without asking questions? Tell me that. He left last night, if you are interested, heading east. And he was carrying on about somebody following him, trying to kill him.” Perrin is zigzagging between somewhat wise (Lan is the lesser threat even though it's kinda like choosing between drinking cyanide or rubbing alcohol in practice), and then utterly stupid, not considering that an Aes Sedai would be perfectly skilled in getting the knowledge she wants without saying anything outright at all. quote:“Perhaps,” Moiraine said. “Perhaps not. No one knows anything about ta’veren as strong as Rand.” For just a moment she sounded vexed at not knowing. Sorry Moiraine, but Perrin's right to be worried. Rand is going to be easily tracked, not just because of his ta'veren but through other means, and even Ishamael couldn't use the other means, he and the Forsaken are old hands at dealing with Dragon-tier ta'veren because they fought the first one. quote:Lan caught Moiraine’s eye, and for a moment they stared at one another. The Warder had the air about him of a wolf about to leap. Finally, Moiraine shook her head. “No,” she said. Everyone needs a friend who is as willing to kill innocent bystanders for your convenience as Lan is for Moiraine. And also as willing to listen to vetoes. That part is crucial. quote:“He will not die by my actions,” Moiraine said. “But I cannot, and will not, promise that it will always be so. We must find Rand, and I will not fail in that. Is that spoken plainly enough for you?” How many times in this series does an Aes Sedai offer to speak plainly and in fact plainer still if their words are not sufficient? quote:Lan nodded reluctantly, then gave Perrin a hard look. “See that you do, blacksmith. If any harm befalls her. . . .” His cold blue eyes finished the promise. I really need to stop talking about how much I love Lan but I can't and you're all just going to have to live with that. Or stop reading, I guess that's an option too. quote:Behind those bars, a man lay sprawled on his stomach on the straw-covered floor. He was barefoot, his shirt and breeches ripped as if he had torn at them without knowing how to take them off. There was an odor of unwashed flesh that Perrin thought even Simion and Moiraine must smell. Frankly Perrin your phrasing makes me think that his odor is "borderline but not actually overpowering", so that's pretty good for Noam's current conditions. quote:Perrin jerked back as he would have from a fire, sealed himself off. They were not thoughts at all, really, just a chaotic jumble of desires and images, part memory, part yearning. But there was more wolf there than anything else. He put a hand to the wall to steady himself; his knees felt weak. Noam is... really not well. Even by Wolfbrother standards, I think. I wouldn't be surprised if in addition to his developing powers and the physical abuse we'll learn about in book 13 if he was also getting one of those late twenties mental health crises like schizophrenia. All of that mixed together plus the brief freedom and now imprisonment combines to make the dude we see here, who isn't coherent by either of the mental standards we could judge him by. quote:At her first step, Noam’s lips peeled back from his teeth, and he began to growl, a rumble that deepened till his whole body quivered. Moiraine ignored it. Still growling, Noam wriggled backwards in the straw as she came closer to him, until he had backed himself into a corner. Or she had backed him. Moiraine is likely Compelling Noam a little bit as a part of whatever mental delving she's up to. quote:“Healing is not a simple matter, Simion, and it comes from within as much as from the Healer. There is nothing here that remembers being Noam, nothing that remembers being a man. There are no maps remaining to show him the path back, and nothing left to take that path. Noam is gone, Simion.” With all the pressures Noam's under, it's no surprise at all that he happily jettisoned all the lovely memories. It is kind of impressive that they're entirely gone though, and again it makes me think that there's a lot more going on in Noam's head than we really get to see in this book or in the one ten books from now. quote:“He will die in here or out there, Simion. Out there, at least he’ll be free, and as happy as he can be. He is not your brother anymore, but you’re the one who has to decide. You can leave him in here for people to stare at, leave him to stare at the bars of his cage until he pines away. You cannot cage a wolf, Simion, not and expect it to be happy. Or live long.” Perrin's one of those people who should heed his own advice, as so much of his misery will come from his desperation to cage himself. quote:“A Darkfriend wouldn’t care if my brother died in a cage. I suppose she found you soon after it happened. In time to help. I wish she’d come to Jarra a few months ago.” I suppose this is as much as anything why the Wheel made everyone wait out the winter: it's not just making sure Rand only arrives at Tear at the same time as the Aiel do, but about making sure that Perrin frees Boundless so that he will someday pull his head out of his rear end. Not that this was Jordan's intention, sadly, but it's nice that Sanderson was able to tie this together. Next time: T'A'R!
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May 3, 2024 22:04
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Grundulum posted:Are you saving these somewhere else so that there will eventually be a seamless log of your thoughts? It was neat reading Nexue’s take on the series while it lasted, but she wasn’t bringing future knowledge to bear the way you have been. I continue to post everything to my Tumblr account here, which I linked in my initial post for this in this thread as well, so it's a seamless log less any follow up points I make here.
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May 4, 2024 00:26
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The Dragon Reborn Chapter 9: Wolf Dreams Thoughts This chapter has the Dragon's Fang symbol because of Rand's Darkhound solutions. quote:“I have been expecting you for some time,” she said. “I have not spoken about this before because it was obvious you did not want me to. After tonight, though. . . . What do you want to know?” Note that this is how she STARTS the conversation, before Perrin even gets a word in. Moiraine has been really trying to respect Perrin's boundaries here (in part because if she trampled over them it would only make him ignore what she has to say) and while of course implict statements from Aes Sedai should never be trusted, it is important that she closes with a statement that both affirms Perrin's agency and all but promises to be helpful. If only she were this good with dealing with Rand. quote:She said that some who talked to wolves lost themselves, that what was human was swallowed up by wolf. Some. Whether she meant one in ten, or five, or nine, I do not know. Moiraine is usually pretty good about remembering the whole memory fades spiel, so I think the fact that she's emphasizing the exact words of an unreliable source shows that she very much wants it to be a trustworthy document that shows that Perrin still has a shot. She likes the boy even if he's been annoying lately. quote:“From what I have read of Aes Sedai who had the Talent called Dreaming, Dreamers sometimes spoke of encountering wolves in their dreams, even wolves that acted as guides. I fear you must learn to be as careful sleeping as waking, if you intend to avoid wolves. If that is what you decide to do.” This of course must be where the idea of spirit animals and such comes from, more or less. Wolfbrothers, their equivalents if there are any, and the Dreamers who got a taste of the guidance and assumed they were getting the whole thing. quote:“If I can keep you whole, I will. I promise you that, Perrin. But I will not endanger the struggle against the Shadow. You must know that, too.” As cold as this is, it's actually a bit of a kindness too: she could obfuscate and let him think he's safe with her entirely, but she won't do that even though it would be better for their relationship on the whole. I suppose in a way, dealing with Perrin on this little stint is how Moiraine learns to deal with Rand better in the next couple books. quote:“It would not aid you, Perrin. The shielding is for dreams from the outside. The danger in your dreams is within you.” Are there shields that the One Power can wield to keep Dreamers and similar people from dreaming? I suppose Aran'gar did SOMETHING with the power to gently caress with Egwene later, but it's understandable that Moiraine wouldn't know of any equivalent ability when the Tower has no real use for it. quote:“Hopper?” he said wonderingly. He was sure he knew the wolf whose thoughts he heard. Hopper, who had envied the eagles. “Hopper is dead!” Speaking of spirit animals, it's time for Perrin to meet his! quote:A man stood there, blinking at him uncertainly, in strangely cut coat and breeches, the coat flaring over his hips as the bottoms of the breeches flared over his boots. Both were bright yellow, and his boots were only a little paler. Okay, so this is... Actually I have no idea who this is. Presumably he's an actual nobleman, but from where I couldn't possibly guess except "not Seanchan" since he speaks with a quick accent and "not Illian" since he doesn't be all "do be" about stuff. Does anyone know? quote:Frozen, Perrin stared at the bloody shape wearing the man’s clothes, screaming and thrashing on the floor. Unbidden, his eyes rose to the pale thing like an empty sack that dangled from the ceiling. Part of it was already absorbed by the black strip, but he had no trouble recognizing a human skin, apparently whole and unbroken. Well, either this dude was having one hell of a dream on his own (bad luck and not the kind that Perrin proximity causes), T'A'R has an ecosystem we never learn about (unlikely), or dude was just ganked by someone in the Shadow, so I guess that narrows it down a teensy bit. quote:Even as he recognized her, she lifted her head and looked straight at him. Her eyes widened, in shock, in anger. “You! What are you doing here? How did you—? You’ll ruin things you could not begin to imagine!” Frankly, even "well obviously Lanfear killed that dude" raises further questions about motive. Perhaps this guy was a Darkfriend somewhere on Rand's path, and by taking him out she's protecting Rand in a plausibly deniable way? quote:Perrin turned, and Hopper was there, a big gray wolf, grizzled and scarred. “You are dead. I saw you die. I felt you die!” Perrin buddy, you know you're sleeping. This is like the least remarkable part of your current dream. quote:The water turned pink as he washed his face. Pink with the blood of that strangely dressed man. T'A'R is actually really awful when you stop to think about it for a few seconds. quote:Rand huddled under the trees in the night, watching the heavy-shouldered black dog come nearer his hiding place. Rand being active at night speaks again to the sleep deprivation he's got to be suffering under. Even when he was on that hellish run with Mat he was able to claim downtime, but not here. quote:The Power filled him. Something leaped from his outstretched hands; he was not sure what it was. A bar of white light, solid as steel. Liquid fire. For an instant, in the middle of that something, the dog seemed to become transparent, and then it was gone. Hooray for balefire: cleaner and more effective than nukes! Note Jordan's skill by introducing Rand discovering it randomly in a battle that has no real narrative tension so it's not a cheap victory but still does set things up for Moiraine to use it at the climax of this book to great effect. quote:He wanted to lie down and die. He wanted Nynaeve to give him some of her medicines, or Moiraine to Heal him, or. . . . Something, anything, to stop the sick feeling that was suffocating him. When the chips are down, the two ladies Rand always misses most are Nynaeve and Moiraine. Foreshadowing! quote:Pushing himself away from the tree, he waded a shallow, icy stream, then settled into a steady trot eastward. Cold water filled his boots, and his side hurt, but he ignored both. So many of Rand's bad habits really start up in these early books, under circumstances where he doesn't have any choice but to embrace them. Next time: Egwene is ready to have PTSD episodes and chew bubblegum, but bubblegum hasn't been invented yet!
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May 6, 2024 22:32
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Flowing Thot posted:Balefire gets introduced to the wonder girls by name when Egwene meets with Verin in The Tower. We see it used again by Nynaeve when fighting the fade after they are captured (for the first time in this book). We get Moiraine using it against the Dark Hounds later on. Lots of build up in its use, so it doesn't seem like it came from nowhere when Moiraine smokes that dude. I didn't mean to imply we wouldn't see it again at all between now and Be'lal, just that Jordan made the right choice in demonstrating Rand discovering it randomly in a low stakes event instead of having him use it to save the day.
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May 7, 2024 05:01
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There's a post somewhere wherein Sanderson lays out pretty clearly what was his and what was Jordan's and it was mostly his. Jordan did all three prologues (as one prologue), he did Veins of Gold and most of the epilogue (except the Cadsuane part, since Sanderson killed Egwene not Jordan), he did Mat rescuing Moiraine, and maybe a couple of other big moments, but the vast, vast majority of the story was Sanderson. Once Jordan knew he was dying, he turned his efforts primarily to outlining what he could so that someone else would be able to finish the story for him. Egwene and Rand were the most complete, the only note for Perrin was "King of the West", which Sanderson promptly discarded as I will bring up in my reread every time anything that foreshadows Perrin's becoming King of Saldaea, the Two Rivers, Ghealdan, and Amadicia happens. The Dragon Reborn Chapter 10: Secrets Thoughts This chapter starts with a Whitecloak symbol because they're going to cause Egwene grief. quote:I will never be collared again! She pushed the thought away, but it came back turned end about. I will never lose my freedom again! So, as we can see, Egwene has not magically recovered from her months of trauma after months off freedom. Indeed, she will never fully recover and frankly I expect that even if she'd survived the book series she'd have issues for the rest of her life. quote:Anaiya would be there. And Galad, too, perhaps. She blushed in spite of herself, and banished him from her mind entirely. Jordan was probably still laying groundwork for the finale that didn't happen with her and Galad pairing off after Gawyn's death. I'm not quite sure when that ending plan would have gone away. quote:“I swear I will never wear gray again, Bela,” she told her shaggy mount, patting the mare’s neck. Not that I’ll have much choice once we’re back in the White Tower, she thought. In the Tower, all novices wore white. And of course she'll soon be wearing the seven-colored stole of the Amyrlin, which represents the Gray Ajah as much as the others. quote:“Do you wonder how Moiraine is treating Lan?” she asked sweetly, and had a moment of pleasure at the sharp jerk Nynaeve gave her braid. Egwene thinks that wounding remarks don't come naturally to her, but I don't believe that at all. She's quite sharp-tongued when she wants to be, which is often (she's a Jordan woman after all). That said, I think speaking back to Nynaeve is something newer to her; back in Emond's Field Nynaeve was a respected authority and Egwene's mentor. quote:Six people, Egwene thought, and how many secrets? They all shared more than one, secrets that would have to be kept, perhaps, even in the White Tower. Amusingly, one of the secrets in this party that Egwene doesn't know about will be revealed to her much, much later in the Tower. quote:Nynaeve had always been able to foretell the weather. Listening to the wind, it was called, and the Wisdom of every village was expected to do it, though many really could not. Yet since leaving Emond’s Field, Nynaeve’s ability had grown, or changed. The storms she felt sometimes had to do with men rather than wind, now. It's rather interesting to me how all the members of the EF5 have their styles of divination (Perrin and Egwene have T'A'R, Mat gets the dice, and Rand has a whole book of prophecies written just about him) and yet they're all very indirect when Elaida-style Foretelling exists. I suppose it's not very dramatic to get prophecies as straightforward as hers was on a regular basis. quote:She was of the Brown Ajah, and the Brown sisters usually cared more for seeking out knowledge than for anything in the world around them. Egwene was not so sure of Verin’s detachment, though. Verin had put herself hip-deep in the affairs of the world by being with them. Egwene's ability to see how people don't fit the stereotypes of their affiliation is one of the things that sets her up to be a good leader for the Aes Sedai. quote:Years of experience seemed to have given him some talent at sniffing out wrongdoers, especially those who had done violence. Poor Egwene is not actually in the loop about Hurin though. Kinda funny that we can see the truth distorting at a single degree of separation. quote:Egwene thought he might be uneasy at being alone, for all practical purposes, with an Aes Sedai and three women in training for sisterhood. Some men found facing a fight easier than facing Aes Sedai. She's not entirely wrong, though her ignorance of his talent means she's not quite understanding his motivation. quote:“The One Power won’t do you much good if somebody kills you before you can use it,” Hurin said, addressing the tall pommel of his saddle. drat Hurin, that's a pretty ballsy thing to say to a bunch of would-be Aes Sedai, even if you can't quite look them in the eyes to say it. quote:“I wish I had some idea how much she does know. Egwene, I don’t know if my mother could help me if the Amyrlin found out, much less help the pair of you. Or even whether she would try.” Naturally, Morgase does in fact try to help Elayne when she thinks the Tower is doing her wrong, though she is unable to do much. How much of that is Rahvin's fault I'm not sure. quote:“I will do what must be done,” Nynaeve said sharply, “if there is anything to be done, and you two will run, if need be. The White Tower may be all abuzz with your potential, but don’t think they will not still you both if the Amyrlin Seat or the Hall of the Tower decides it is necessary.” The benefit of Nynaeve being unable to be humble is that she treats the other girls as her responsibility and thus would destroy her life for their well-being. Of course, all three of them are being dramatic and would not be remotely in trouble for actual self-defense. quote:I was Healing before I ever thought of going to Tar Valon, even if I didn’t know I was. But it seems I need my medicines to make it work for me. Nynaeve has quite a few blocks, doesn't she? I don't quite remember when this one goes away. quote:“Let me do all the talking, children,” the Aes Sedai said placidly, pushing her cowl back to reveal gray in her hair. Egwene was not sure how old Verin was; she thought old enough to be a grandmother, but the gray streaks were the Aes Sedai’s only signs of age. At present, Verin is about 150 years old, meaning that she could have a 10 year old great-great-great-great-great-grandchild assuming 20 year generations. She has no children and boy did the White Tower screw themselves over implementing those policies. quote:“Two Tar Valon witches, unless I miss my guess, yes?” he said with a tight smile that pinched his narrow face. Dain Bornhald does in fact miss his guess, as he misses most everything. quote:Verin opened her mouth as if for idle conversation, but before she could speak, Elayne jumped in, voice ringing with command. “I am Elayne, Daughter-Heir of Andor. If you do not move aside at once, you will have Queen Morgase to answer to, Whitecloak!” This is possibly Elayne's biggest moment of stupidity derived from being a sheltered princess in the whole series. Other moments like the veil are more laughable and of course she makes some other big mistakes at points, but she just went from "unremarkable passerby who was going to be harrassed but unharmed" to "high-priority target" and all because she couldn't obey a simple instruction not to talk. quote:There’s no more time to wait, Egwene thought. I will not be chained again! And meanwhile Egwene's trauma is so ingrained that the possibility of violence (the Whitecloaks haven't *actually* done anything yet) immediately sets her off. Poor Egwene. quote:She fought to keep from being overwhelmed, and focused on the ground in front of the Whitecloak officer’s horse. A small patch of ground; she did not want to kill anyone. At least she isn't completely gone, because seriously after the Seanchan you'd hardly blame her for still being in "kill kill kill" mode at the moment. quote:Verin was wide-eyed with astonishment and anger. Her mouth worked furiously, but whatever she might be saying was lost in the thunder. Verin does not get paid enough for this crap. quote:“What you have done is an abomination. An abomination! An Aes Sedai does not use the Power as a weapon except against Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme to defend her life. The Three Oaths—” The Three Oaths don't apply to anyone having this conversation. But this still is slowly setting up the Oaths and the many attitudes that Egwene will have about them going forward. Here they're only an annoyance. quote:“It . . . it was not really using the Power as a weapon, Verin Sedai.” Elayne held her chin high, but her voice shook. “We did not hurt anyone, or even try to hurt anyone. Surely—” The scary thing is, this justification, if believed, would let many Aes Sedai sidestep that particular Oath. No wonder Verin tries to shut it down hard. quote:He was only trying to bully us, child. He knew very well he could not make us go where we did not want, not without more trouble than he was willing to accept. Not here, not in sight of Tar Valon. I could have talked us past him, with a little time and a little patience. Oh, he might well have tried to kill us if he could have done it from hiding, but no Whitecloak with the brains of a goat will try harming an Aes Sedai who knows he is there. And now, after two books of very straightforward good guys vs bad guys, we finally get some of the complications that will run through the rest of the books. Not in the straightforward shades of gray (the Whitecloaks might not be Darkfriends but they're still dangerous assholes), but through Verin pointing out that they're so utterly outmatched that using the Power against them is just hosed. quote:“We have come a long way,” Egwene went on, “all the way from Toman Head, and if I weren’t so tired, I would never have—” Egwene, never content to let someone else be number one, makes a bold play to be the person with the biggest mouth in the party. quote:“My name is Dain Bornhald! Remember it, Darkfriends! I will make you fear my name! Remember my name!” None of these people will ever see you again, Dain, let alone have any reason to fear you. Dude is like an angry dog barking at everyone outside the fence quote:“What did he mean about my mother?” Elayne said suddenly. “He must have been lying. She would never turn against Tar Valon.” That was before they lost her daughter for four months, Elayne, and also before Gaebril, though really I expect that a normal Morgase would still have had issues with Tar Valon over the incident. quote:“Now you must truly be on your guard,” Verin told them. “Now the real danger begins.” Verin's not wrong, since everyone in the White Tower is far more dangerous to the girls than most people outside it. And also the Black Ajah is headquartered here. Not that Verin, the world's least suspicious woman, would know anything about that. Next time: The chapter that contains our first map of Vagina Island!
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May 7, 2024 22:48
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Nihilarian posted:what? As early idea for Egwene's final fate was that she pair up with Gawyn and get pregnant by him, but he'd die in the Last Battle and Galad would step up and marry her to give his half nibling a dad (doing the right thing, I suppose). Jordan himself had definitely abandoned this plan by his later books, which I think was for the best. Ravenson fucked around with this message at 02:37 on May 8, 2024 |
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May 8, 2024 02:18
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