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It’s tough to do any playable version of the Sabbat in TYOOL 2021 that isn’t a black comedy like Dark Heresy or Paranoia because they’re functionally a reactionary death-cult. In V5, the Camarilla is functionally the powers of neoliberal global capitalism. The Anarchs and Sabbat are both opposed to it but for different reasons, just as socialists/anarchists and the alt-right are opposed to capitalism for different reasons. The Anarchs oppose the Cam because they represent millennia of generational wealth and power held by a tiny minority of elders who use it to alienate and oppress the working vampires at the bottom of the hierarchy, measurably making things worse for both mortals and vampires. To top that off, they dropped the ball at the one thing justifying their existence - the Masquerade - since they drew the attention of the Second Inquisition (Debatable). The Sabbat opposes the Cam because it believes in a global conspiracy of They made a great edgelord villain in the 90s, but I find it hard to justify using them as anything but antagonists now. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 00:28 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 00:16
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:The problem with using all those strikethroughs for metaphorical impact is that the Sabbat are factually and canonically correct about their priors. The Antes did and do that! Until the canon split between the end of VtM Rev and V5, the Ante endgame was proven to be happening! The Cam did and do that! It's only their conclusions that are wrong, which one could argue makes them prime for player characters as reform-Sabbat "I was with you right up to the baby eating." Except the WoD is still here, isn’t it? The Antes haven’t appeared beyond Ravnos waking up and wrecking his clan and the rest are unfounded rumor. The alt-right is an example of a group that is often right about the problems of neoliberal capitalism (alienation of young men, unemployment, wealth inequality) but wrong about the conclusions (feminism, illegal immigrants, Jewish conspiracies). It doesn’t make them any more sympathetic. If you want to rebel and break out from the Camarilla’s thumb and define your destiny as a vampire, you join the Anarchs. V5 even explicitly states that many Anarchs are ex-Sabbat who broke away from cycles of violence and indoctrination. There are no Good Sabbat for the same reasons there are no Good Nazis or Good Cops; the night you become “Good Sabbat” is when you leave the Sabbat (same goes for the Cam).
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May 27, 2021 01:13
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:And I'm saying it's a bad analogy, glibly appealing as it may be, because there actually is a global conspiracy of the ultra-powerful (vampires and their vampdads) controlling the world and making the world lovely, they're incorrect about what to do about it. That’s not what I said at all. “The alt-right are correct until the part about doing hate crimes” =/= “the reasons for those hate crimes are sound”. People who commit hate crimes don’t do it because they honestly think it will improve their economic status or fix actual problems, hate crimes don’t “solve” anything, they’re only justifications for lovely behavior. And now your also moving the goalposts by reframing “ancient vampire gods who want to eat the world” equal to “wealthy and powerful vampires who want to hold on to their wealth and power.” Acknowledging that the inequality of wealth and its problems exist doesn’t justify going into full on QAnon “baby-eating cabal” conspiracies. You also haven’t answered the question: “If the Sabbat is right, why is the WoD still here?” (Beyond the Doylist reason of “it’s a popular game and they want to keep selling books.”) Yeah, there was a Gehenna supplement back in the 2000s with variations of “what if Gehenna happened?” That’s irrelevant because V5’s ultimate answer is “it didn’t.” The Sabbat at this point has lost any ethos as the heralds of the end times, like those Millenialist cults who predict that Jesus is going to come back “any day now.” They’re chumps because their End Times are here, it’s just that they came not in the form of vampire gods, but in the form of black ops squads made of the same mortals they so underestimate. If you want to talk about weak arguments that’s the weakest one of all. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 02:21 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:14
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Dawgstar posted:Yeah. ‘Just because one Antediluvian exists doesn’t mean they all do’ is not a super strong argument. Yeah there’s nothing in that tweet thread that contradicts what I said, even to the point of “you’re probably better off with older editions of Vampire for a Sabbat game, and one can understand why the V5 team is reticent to make them playable.”
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May 27, 2021 02:27
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Mors Rattus posted:I think the issue is more “except doing hate crimes” includes the part where Jews still run the world being “true.” It’s going “okay, Jews run the world, but it’s bad to kill them.” Im saying “Ok, wealth disparity exists, but it’s bad to blame it on antisemetic conspiracies and use that as hate crime justification.” I said right-wingers look at things like wealth disparity and wrongly blame the Jews instead of capitalism (because of antisemitism and a lack of class consciousness). The root of the problem both sides agree on is “wealth disparity exists”, not “Jews control the world.” Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 02:48 on May 27, 2021 |
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May 27, 2021 02:34
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Speaking of V:tM, has there ever been a good premade module/adventure path that wasn’t just a metaplot railroad?
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May 28, 2021 16:44
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Seems like the Sabbat shot down a lot of their credibility too when the ones responsible for taking down the Ravnos ante were *checks notes* the same mortal humans they ultimately despise. Like if legit think the antes are an existential threat, I’d get on the good side of the 7+ Billion people with nukes.
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May 28, 2021 18:55
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Dawgstar posted:By nukes and mortal humans you mean the Technocracy's magical neutron bombs because that's actually what did it, or at least killed the ancient Keui-Jin Bodhisattva who were fighting Ravnos and had things under control until the bombs killed them and then the Technocracy's mirror satellites finished the antediluvian off because there was no more magical cloud cover to fight under. I’d say that qualifies, unless you want to debate if mages are human? (In which case it all goes back to magechat).
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May 28, 2021 19:41
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MonsieurChoc posted:Any stuff on the Ashirra in V5? Not that much beyond them being a sort of Camarilla analogue in the Middle East, but it would be cool if we see a source book. The biggest litmus test of V5 for me how well they present the “Kindred of the East”, if at all.
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May 28, 2021 19:44
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Arivia posted:Diablerie Mexico, obviously. Not a great adventure, but definitely a fun read! Is there an open-source program for V5 or Storyteller system in general? Because it seems like good modules for WoD in general are a niche to be filled and I’d like to try my hand.
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May 28, 2021 22:18
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joylessdivision posted:I think Storytellers Vault has stuff on how to create your own modules and such. I've never really poked around it too much beyond snagging art packs Thanks! Alas, V5 isn’t on the list of acceptable content. 
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May 28, 2021 22:44
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Time for some brand synergy!! Vampire scenario based off of Samson vs. The Vampire Women Changeling: the Lost scenario based off of Manos: the Hands of Fate Mage scenario based off of Merlin’s Shop of Mystical Wonders Werewolf scenario based off of…
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Oct 9, 2021 03:07
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You definitely have the makings of a goofball Hunter campaign in The Final Sacrifice.
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Oct 9, 2021 04:51
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I’d be down for a PbP Discord game of V5, and would enjoy getting a chance to play. In terms of preference, I’d prefer an Anarch-based game or one where we play elders, but I’m down for whatever.
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Oct 10, 2021 18:30
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Fuzz posted:This would be how I'd run it, yeah. Also would happily play. You said you were looking to do B5 with a modified lore setup, so I assumed you were running but I could be wrong? What sort of modified lore were you thinking? Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 21:00 on Oct 10, 2021 |
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Oct 10, 2021 19:59
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Fuzz posted:Was to Ritorix, who also wanted to run one. Ah, I see. Yeah, that’s cool with me.
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Oct 10, 2021 21:36
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Lol I thought they at least still owned CofD, I didn’t realize OP had fallen this far from grace.
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Oct 11, 2021 19:47
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Fuzz, I think your efforts to reposition the lore of Eastern vampires is awesome. I really like the idea of recontextualizing the vampires of V:tM in a context based on East Asian mythology and history, and wish you success on your project! This is a great interest of mine as well, so I would be happy to collaborate.MonsieurChoc posted:Good luck, because the whole thing with Demon Emperor and the Yama Kings.... The Yama Kings and their demon agents are everywhere, working to bring about the fall of the Wan Xian's inheritors and an Age of Darkness. Shifters and fae are demons, witches are demons and take their power from them, dead souls rise to the Earth as demons to haunt us, etc. (the label "demon" is something the Cainites of the East use as an excuse to oppress and commit violence upon other supernaturals, just as Western Cainites use labels like "Lupine" and "Infernalist") One thing I might integrate with East Asian Kindred are rituals that draw power from sacred sites, so that creates instant conflict with other supernaturals. And unlike shifters and mages, the relationship created with those sites is entirely parasitic. They wouldn't be too different from Tremere and Tzimisce koldun rituals that do the same thing. quote:and Saulot... Saulot (Zao La) came to the Middle Kingdom in ages past to explore the nature of his curse and find further insight into Golconda, and possibly even the secret to becoming human again. He and many elders in what is now modern China exchanged knowledge and insight, and he even managed to establish a brood of childer known in the modern day as the Wu Zao. But despite his studies and the advice of his teachers ("Let go of your daddy issues and accept your Hunger and immortal state"), he found his efforts stymied and left in disgust (possibly creating the Baali along the way back home). Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Nov 3, 2021 |
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Nov 2, 2021 21:14
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I’m still a bit annoyed that V5 and most of these games recommended XP allowances per session are “1 XP, maybe 2 if you want accelerated advancement”. So even under accelerated advancement I have to wait at least 7 sessions, depending on story awards, to raise an in-clan Discipline dot from 2 to 3 (15 XP)? Like how long do they assume your average V5 game is supposed to last?
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Nov 3, 2021 16:31
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Many of the Silver Ladder are definitely apparatchiks - those who believe that "all should be Awakened, but some must be more Awakened than others."
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Nov 10, 2021 05:26
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MonsieurChoc posted:I still think nWoD 2e is at best a sidegrade to 1e thanks to the bad xp and bad condition rules. I though the flat XP costs for nWoD 2e were overall considered an improvement? Like no more having to play 7 sessions to raise a Discipline from 2 to 3 dots. Or do you mean like the Beat system?
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Nov 17, 2021 00:38
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Nessus posted:We got Ruthven and we obviously have contended with Big Daddy Vladdy, but were there ever oWoD versions of Carmilla or Varney the Vampyre? Orlok inspired an entire drat clan so he's covered. Never official versions, AFAIK. Carmilla could work as a Malkavian, considering she would use dreams and visions to communicate to her lover, Laura, and she reflects defiance of Victorian society’s heteronormativity. Sir Francis Varney has unnatural strength and hypnosis, and has roots in English nobility and was apparently cursed with vampirism as punishment for betraying a royalist to Oliver Cromwell. Seems like he could work as either Brujah or Ventrue.
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Nov 21, 2021 00:14
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True Brujah clan bane seems a poor fit for Dio’s extremely poor impulse control. RE: count Von count, I always wondered if it was clever research or just pure coincidence that his counting habits match that of the obsessive habits of some vampires in actual folklore; the ones where you could ward off a vampire by leaving grains on the ground because they would stop to count all of them. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 02:20
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Blockhouse posted:okay this is the first I'm hearing of the True Brujah how does blood manipulation - which I think is how Discipliners work? Am I wrong? - let you control time How does it let you turn into a bat, or erase a person’s memories? It’s magic.
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Nov 21, 2021 03:05
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TBF, every Discipline will look lovely next to pre-Requeim/V5 Celerity, aka “I’m a just break the action economy over my knee.”Ghost Leviathan posted:I heard there's one otherwise terrible vampire movie where they try this on Dracula and he just counts them all in an instant Rain Man style. There’s a character in the lore called The Stone Man, an ancient Caitiff methuselah said to have invented multiple Disciplines, who might be a Pillar Men reference, but I’m not sure. (TBH, JoJo wasn’t known that well outside of Japan even in most weeb circles at the time most Vampire stuff was written, so I kind of doubt it.) Otherwise, probably Gangrel or Tzimisce, to reflect the shapeshifting. I’d like to see more “historical” vampires in the lore, people who weren’t in fiction but whose corpses were targeted as vampires during various vampire panics, like Arnold Paole or Mercy Brown. I once put Arnold Paole in a Requiem game I ran as a Gangrel elder. Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Nov 21, 2021 |
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Nov 21, 2021 09:30
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All I remember from Dracula 2000 is one of the hunters trying to drive away vampire Omar Epps with a crucifix and he’s all… “Sorry, Jack - I’m an atheist!” 
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Nov 22, 2021 00:53
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Dio really doesn’t fit as the influence for the Trujah because… A: As mentioned before, JoJo (at least SDC) wasn’t translated to English at the time the clan was introduced to V:tM, and JoJo in general wasn’t that well know outside of Japan even to foreign anime fans. (Phantom Blood Dio was closer to a Tzimisce, anyway)  B: The True Brujah clan flaw is the inverse of the Brujah hot temper. They’re so cold and detached that they take penalties to Humanity rolls because of their inability to feel emotions. Dio is many things but he’s not a Vulcan.
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Nov 22, 2021 03:39
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 I know Polanski sucks, but I really do need to see that film.
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Nov 22, 2021 03:45
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I’ve always played “frenzy vs. fire” by ruling that Kindred don’t generally have to make frenzy checks unless the fire is directly threatening them. So a burning torch that’s just sitting in a wall sconce won’t provoke frenzy in a vampire, but it will if someone picks up that torch and starts waving it at them. One thing I prefer is that, if Kindred are limited to the night, than all of them should be able to see in the dark. You shouldn’t need Auspex 1 or Protean 1. (Frankly, V:tR 2e is the only version of vampire where Protean 1 isn’t totally useless. I’d swap it out for the ability to spider-climb on walls Dracula-style)
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Oct 22, 2022 23:53
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Soonmot posted:/\/\/\Yeah most of the bad is gone. I'd still rec Requiem 2, but that's personal preference, there's nothing inherently bad about V5. Yeah, I dig R2e’s version of Protean a lot. I like Masquerade’s setting more, but there’s a lot of good about the Requiem clans that I wish V5 had kept (more versatile Protean, Nosferatu being “all creepy” instead of “all ugly”, detachment from Touchstones as Ventrue weakness instead of feeding restriction, etc.)
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Oct 23, 2022 16:17
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One thing I really do prefer V5 for is that it has a structured session zero where the GM and players are expected to outline the coterie’s common bonds, goals, code of Humanity, etc., and then the setting is adjusted around those expectations. (Unknown Armies 3e, a fav game of mine, has a similar system).
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Oct 23, 2022 17:03
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Don’t have much interest in Werewolf anymore due to it having even more problematic stuff in its roots than even Vampire, but unlike Vampire is based around a core gameplay loop and setting that doesn’t interest me. I’m glad W5 is attempting to polish it up, though. I dislike W:tA (and M:tA) enough that, even when I use werewolves or mages as Vampire NPCs, I do my best to highlight that these are *not* the versions of those creatures from their eponymous games. They’re not Garou or Awakened, they’re Lupines and witches. EDIT: Also, what’s the point of having the Hispo form? I can understand the changes in utility between human/wolf-like human/human-like wolf/wolf, but with those other forms is there any effective advantage to “XL wolf” vs “medium wolf”? Gatto Grigio fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Oct 25, 2022 |
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Oct 25, 2022 20:09
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Then again, novel Dracula could walk around in daylight without exploding, so… I think the thing with bladed weapons is that decapitation is a sure fire way to kill vamps in almost all media, so they try to reflect that (successfully or no).
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Oct 26, 2022 17:07
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There’s technically a third category of damage for vampires in V5: non-halved Superficial damage. This usually applies to supernatural attacks that don’t use fire or sunlight but are still dangerous, such as Feral Weapon or werewolf claws.
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Oct 26, 2022 20:22
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Steak goes in your stomach, Buffy, not your heart. Geez, frickin blondes, amirite?!?
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Oct 27, 2022 15:18
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That’s not how Clan Compulsions work at all. There is nothing forcing a player to take them, even if they fail a Hunger or Frenzy roll. Clan Compulsion is just another option a vamp from that clan is able to take if they don’t want to take the generic vampire options like “flip out and kill people” or “socially dominate those around them”
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Nov 1, 2022 20:35
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tatankatonk posted:It's just an artifact of nostalgia that people can't get rid of. It's good that it's optional, next step is just to let it go completely! “It’s not good enough that I have the option to ignore it personally, I must also be able to take away other player’s fun.”
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Nov 1, 2022 21:09
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Looking at a rule or an argument and creating the most bad-faith interpretation of it to prove a point is Ferrinus’ whole schtick. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 2, 2022 18:03
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One of the best WWDITS episodes is the one where the vampires summon their own ghosts
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Jan 11, 2023 05:09
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The Beckoning and the Second Inquisition are basically two dials you can turn to explain in-game why the influence of elder vampires is waning and there are more opportunities for neonates to push back. In my head canon, the Beckoning is a factor, but it’s also an excuse used to explain elder disappearance. It’s easier for prideful Kindred to say “our leaders hosed off to distant lands” than to admit “our leaders are getting their asses kicked by a bunch of “mere mortals.”
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Mar 3, 2023 19:19
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