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Saw the movie yesterday. It was pretty good, I give it a solid B+. I don't think I ever have to watch it again though. I thought Phoenix's acting was superb, but frankly I found it unpleasant to watch 2 hours of an extremely mentally disturbed man transforming into the Joker. Couple of things that felt odd or kind of bothered me: People seemed too oblivious to his obvious mental illnesses. Maybe my general experiences are anecdotal, but most people in public tend to try to avoid or leave "crazy" people alone. Even Thomas Wayne, while understandably miffed from hearing about the Joker's visit to his home, seemed to lack any EQ to see the the son of his crazy former employee is also disturbed. I get that this was kind of the point of the movie, but it felt a bit hard to buy. What was Randall's deal? Did he set Joker up or did he actually give him the gun out of care? Just seemed unnecessary to lie and snitch on him to the boss to get him fired either way. Bruce already seemed a bit off when his big bro visited him. Who lets a stranger put his fingers in their mouth to force a smile? I kind of wish they didn't depict the Wayne murders. This version of them being out on the town while the city is blowing up in a riot actually makes Wayne seem a lot more irresponsible and lessens the traditional reasons for the Batman origin story. His parents getting killed via petty crime is a much richer motivation than his parents getting killed during a riot that's arguably of his father's own doing. I would've preferred if they mentioned their murder in a newspaper headline or radio background noise like that in the beginning. Anyway, these aren't major issues to me, just things that I thought about since watching the movie.
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Oct 9, 2019 21:53
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well why not posted:I'm not sure about this, he's pretty isolated from everyone outside of the main characters in the films. Anyone he spends time around distrusts him quickly - his coworkers do not like him and his boss thinks he's a weirdo. His neighbour doesn't even recognise him. That kinda tracks to me. How much time does it take before you realise someone is mentally ill? How long would you be OK with someone who's "weird" before you become concerned? In a vacuum, you're right, but he gives off a lot of obvious "stay away" and "try to be civil to not provoke or offend" tells that strangers tend to pick up on. Phoenix was not very subtle throughout the movie, or least that's how I saw it. For instance, the mom and kid on the bus, as soon as his crazy laughter started and never stopped, I wouldnt think they'd need a card to see that he's got a problem. Perhaps the tells aren't as obvious as I think. The distrust stuff, is fine, but it really goes along the lines of people assuming he's an average rear end in a top hat/creep and less of a mentally ill person. Anyway, I get that there's a theme of him trying to act normal in spite of his illness, but I guess for me the portrayal was a bit too strong for me to believe the reactions.
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Oct 10, 2019 13:41
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True that, I don't discredit the movie for it. It made me feel uncomfortable to watch. I do have some mental illness in my family which probably made it hit me harder.
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Oct 10, 2019 13:48
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Taear posted:Have you ever been on a bus when there's someone with a definite mental issue like Phoenix portrays in that scene? The reactions seemed very real to me and I've unfortunately seen the situation play out in real life loving loads and loads. Yes, more than a few times and people tend to try to give that person a lot of space out of respect, fear or discomfort. At least adults do. I'll admit teens and younger are a wild card. It could be in the areas I've frequented, perhaps it's rougher in larger cities like NYC.
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Oct 10, 2019 17:42
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I want to see this universe's Batman. Some twisted, alt-right, poor-minority hating vigilante on a crusade to avenge his rear end in a top hat, gaslighting daddy.
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Oct 11, 2019 23:57
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AFewBricksShy posted:Hey i haven’t seen this yet, so I need to ask here. My kid (12) wants to see this with his friends. The IMDb page doesn’t really give me a good idea of how bad it is. Honestly, while it's not the most violent movie, it deals with a lot of dark and somewhat disturbing subject matter, mainly mental illness. While I think a kid could be mature enough to appreciate it, I think you should definitely watch it as well in case you feel any discussion may be needed later.
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Oct 12, 2019 00:32
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Steve2911 posted:He already is that. I haven't watched the Affleck or Clooney Batman movies so I'll disregard those for this post. For the other movies I've seen, "he already is that" only when deconstructed, scrutinized and analyzed. Otherwise, he's still depicted as virtuous and justly righteous. His parents are victims of a random act of violence, not the climax of a class war-fare riot, whose powder keg was arguably lit by his father's own hubris and strong remarks against the poor.
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Oct 12, 2019 16:34
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Necrothatcher posted:I've been chatting about this film a lot with people, and it's really weird how they criticise the film for being heavy-handed while also completely understanding its message. It seems like some really weird intellectual snobbery to consider it a failing of a film that it communicates its message clearly. If Joker has something to say about austerity and class war it's a huge plus point in its favor that you're not likely to miss that. I agree with this as far as critique goes. However, it's reminded me that for as heavy handed it is about the class war stuff, it is not at all heavy handed about its stance on violence. At best, it's left to your own interpretation about the righteousness of the violence that Joker and the rioters inflict on their victims.
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Oct 12, 2019 17:29
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Coffee And Pie posted:I really didn't like De Niro as the talk show host. He really grated on me. Other than that I thought it was good. The political message seemed a little mixed but considering the protagonist it tracks thematically. I wouldn't be upset if it won something for photography. Do you mean you felt it was like a poorly executed role or that you just didn't like the host? I wasn't a fan of the character, but I thought he played it fairly believably and well. My only complaint was that I think he was a little too dismissive when Joker confessed to the murders. I mean dismissive of the gravity of the situation.
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Oct 13, 2019 01:49
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It's possible the mom was gaslighted on the past and acquired mental illness later, at least partially as a result of that trauma. Nothing's really in stone about her. Even your example could be more out of parental callous bluntness in a vacuum.
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Oct 13, 2019 17:20
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I don't know how consistently Joker is depicted throughout the comics and various shows, but I think the "apolitical" stance that Arthur takes is more in line with the Heath Ledger Joker being an agent of chaos who is only interested in his selfish, psychopathic testing of the human condition. More specifically (not that these are the same universes) I see this movie as a potential genesis of how a madman goes down that dark road. Some men just want to watch the world burn.
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Oct 15, 2019 19:40
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DrVenkman posted:Arthur can't just be mentally ill, he has to be the SNL version of it complete with a diary for his wacky writing. It's so completely overwrought in every aspect. Like it's not enough he runs into assholes on the train, it's that they have just come from a performance of A LITTLE NIGHT MUSIC. No matter how ambitious they were going be with the mental health and societal stuff, it's still a movie about a comic book character. I think this was both a benefit and a detriment to the movie and ultimately there's only so much poo poo you can have grounded in realism before it still needed to relate back to what he's to become, an outlandish, grandiose, psychopathic clown. Also, it's not that big of a stretch that Travis Bickle is some sort of proto-incel. It's no stain on the original film, but today's incels are not known for being mentally stable and grounded people.
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Oct 16, 2019 16:40
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"Dumb" is a weird way to put it. It's a film and people are going to get out of it what they want. I feel like this is more of a projection about the awfulness the word "incel" represents but at its core, incels are people who let their real life loneliness and isolation define themselves and be channeled and projected into resentment, anger, misanthropy, paranoia, racism, etc. To my knowledge, the internet doesn't define incels, but it's allowed them to virtually congregate and embolden each other with their hosed up feelings and views which is a big problem.
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Oct 16, 2019 17:43
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Ignis posted:I have never watched Taxi Driver or King of Comedy and the last DC movie I sort of liked was... Justice League I guess...? Loved the Nolan trilogy too. I'm not into comic books but I have watched all of MCU so far. Joaquin Phoenix is okay I guess. Should I see this or should I just wait for it to hit streaming? My honest feeling is that it's not a must see, but it's worth seeing in general. It's not a movie that strongly benefits from being seen in a theater vs. the privacy of your own home. I actually saw it in one of those restaurant/theaters and a server actually came across my row to clear some dishes during the climax of the movie. Anyway, there's a lot of delicate and emotionally weighty subject matter, so I do think it's a good streaming experience.
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Oct 17, 2019 04:57
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Coffee And Pie posted:Anyone else find his laugh terribly unconvincing? It sounded like a bad fake laugh instead of a genuine, uncontrollable laugh. Kind of. I thought it sounded like a dangerously deranged person, which led me to feel conflicted about in-movie reactions to him. If it was intended to sound like a real belly laugh that he couldn't control, that would explain a lot of the seeming confusion and annoyance at him. Otherwise I thought people were strangely oblivious to how mental he seemed.
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Oct 17, 2019 18:53
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H13 posted:
The change is that he's a mentally ill person who's still trying to conform to society, at least in part due to trying to care for and please his I'll mother, but as the events of the movie take a toll on him, he goes off his meds and gives in to his base impulses, killing his mom and coworker to complete his change and going on the talk show as his coming out party.
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Oct 20, 2019 18:06
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Yeah I don't think it was ever really about a good vs evil conflict, Arthur was at best, morally neutral at the beginning. I think by the end of the movie, he's let go on any sense of societal conforming, and is all about fulfilling his own hedonistic pleasures. After experiencing his first murders, he's likely acquired the taste for doing it more and more. I don't even think he's definitely evil by the end. He's a sociopath who doesn't seem to give a poo poo about what he's doing. I mean, he's evil by societal standards, but I don't think he's thinking in those terms.
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Oct 21, 2019 03:28
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I forget, did the fridge scene happen before or after he fridged his mom?
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Oct 22, 2019 17:18
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CROWS EVERYWHERE posted:Basically. It's a really good A+/S rank comic book movie, but a solid C "real" movie. I thoroughly enjoyed it and it's probably the best superhero movie I've seen but I wouldn't put it in my top 10 of all movies ever. I feel almost the opposite. It's like a C comic movie and a B film. I felt the comic stuff felt a bit tacked on, but it was an interesting portrayal of society's treatment of mental illness and even how people try to frame every person's actions into a bigger political mold. As for comic movies, I think of them as larger than life by nature, and something like the Avengers 1 or 3 is probably the pinnacle of Hollywood fully embracing comics in film IMO. I believe if you rename every single character in Joker and change his final costume up to not look like the Joker, and it wouldn't even be remotely a comic book movie anymore, but the movie itself would be almost the same except the audience would now lack their own emotional connections and bias towards those DC characters and the movie would make much less money. As it stands, it's ostensibly a comic movie because it references people in name.
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Oct 29, 2019 13:59
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McSpanky posted:Road To Perdition must've froze you up like a Star Trek computer being told a paradox. Never seen it, care to explain?
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Oct 30, 2019 13:35
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For all the "real" Joker vs. inspiration for the Joker, I find it's kind of an odd thing to focus on. It's not the same universe as other Jokers and who knows what the interpretation of Batman would even be like in this world. Maybe Batman will have some weird fetish for people sticking their fingers in his mouth. I don't know, but this was sold as an original origin story for the Joker and unless they decide to revisit this universe to expand upon Arthur's narrative, I personally think it's best to appreciate it for being a self contained story of the Joker.
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Nov 11, 2019 23:05
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ruddiger posted:How did Murray betray him? Did you watch the movie?
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Nov 15, 2019 04:08
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Jack B Nimble posted:I knew it was doing well but drat. Are we guaranteed a bad sequel now? If they do, hopefully it's just another villain's original origin story that's only nebulously connected to this movie. Riddler would be interesting.
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Nov 16, 2019 00:08
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I'm very curious about how the movie's dialogue was translated for various international audiences. Being that it was a huge success abroad, I mostly assume is based on the appeal of it's class warfare themes and revolutionary escapist fantasy.
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Jan 7, 2020 16:06
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