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I think Dominion Sinister is an Essex, not a Sinister. It's going to be Adam, somehow. His original son. Like we did see Doctor Stasis seemed to have a son he was pining over, and it seems weird they brought that reference back. Or maybe it's Rebecca, his dead wife. I dunno. I'm still a bit shaky on how the Dominion stuff works - I wasn't aware there was like a slot you could fill that stopped others. But yeah. It just feels to me like it would be a fun comeuppance for it to be an Essex but not a Sinister.
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May 25, 2023 10:45
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the idea that one person becoming a dominion precludes other, but similar people from ever doing so is new. but the story said it was one of the essex clones who isn't sinister, so it's probably best to just take it at its word. maybe some subsequent writer will switch up how it works, maybe the plot thread will be dropped entirely. I don't recall the story saying it was an Essex clone for sure? Merely that Sinister assumed as much, which checks out with his character since of course the only person he'd accept that could beat him is him. All the dominion said was "not you." But yeah. The rules of how dominion 'slots' get filled seem real nebulous.
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May 26, 2023 05:49
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Air Skwirl posted:Literally of all the X-Men villains beyond even Apocalypse or Emplate, giving Sinister a seat at the table is probably the dumbest thing Xavier has ever done, and Xavier has done a lot of dumb things. But it's really good fiction. I know comics and stuff but yeah, like, "Magneto is willing to tolerate a literal Nazi that he personally knew of while at Auschwitz" has always stuck wrong with me.
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Oct 21, 2023 18:07
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site posted:i mean, they're all actively trying to be The Worst Sinister, so you just kill em all One that exclusively or primarily experimented on children and Magneto either met personally and/or knew of by name/reputation back when he was in Auschwitz. But I mean really, a Victorian geneticist obsessed with eugenics and with, even by the standards of his day, no moral compass. It would be frankly unbelievable and bad writing if Sinister WASN'T somehow involved with the Nazis. Frankly it's a shock Sinister and Stasis didn't bump into eachother in one of the camps. "Who is that shockingly good looking mad scientist?!"
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Oct 21, 2023 19:06
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Rochallor posted:Hmm, that's a good observation, it's been a long time since I've seen it but he is pretty much a mix of Shaw's extravagant lifestyle and Sinister's mutant experimentation. I think it was Apocalypse teased Sinister as a future villain, but when they got around to Logan the bad guy was just Richard Grant being Richard Grant. The New Mutants movie also had Essex namedrops. If I thought Fox was smart enough with their handling of the X-Men IP before Disney bought them I'd say they were maybe slowly building to him the way the MCU did Thanos, but realistically it was likely just little easter egg nods, like how even Raimi's plans for Spider-Man 4 still didn't have payoff for Doc Conner being in every movie.
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Oct 21, 2023 20:06
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I mean like basically every major X-Men future timeline we see is some flavor of Robot Fascism or Egyptian Fascism. Your pick of the future is whether Apocalypse or a Sentinel is stepping on your neck.
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Oct 29, 2023 14:10
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Chinston Wurchill posted:Speaking of this, I saw a cover of an X-Men "villains guide" today which featured some sort of cyborg Apocalypse who had robotic claws. I liked his design from, speaking of recent Sinister developments, the Cyclops and Jean Grey miniseries that got into Essex's origins. I always like when they play up the Egyptian motifs and give us basically biotech pharaoh Apocalypse.
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Jan 13, 2024 02:53
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I remember once on these very forums, when the Apocalypse movie was announced, someone in some thread asked "what are Apocalypse's powers, anyway?" and the answer some clever goon who's name I forget gave was to quote "he is the rocks of the eternal shore, crash against him and be broken!" But yeah, joking aside, that kind of is the answer. I think they've maybe gotten a bit better about it in recent years/decades, but for the 80s and 90s I'm pretty sure Apocalypse's power was emphatically just "shapeshifting + whatever the story needs" EDIT: Like, hell, how does Apocalypse's immortality work? Body hopping? Regeneration comas? Regeneration in special locations like Ra's al-Ghul and his Lazarus Pits? Just straight up immrtality? Yes. No. All of these!
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Jan 13, 2024 14:20
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BrianWilly posted:Because what's actually happening here isn't that we're replacing Krakoa with some better concept, or even that Krakoa is collapsing under the weight of its flawed ideals or corrupt leadership or anything like that. No, what's happening is simply that a bunch of bigots got together with bunch of big explodey machines and blew the place up so good that it won't return. That's it. That's my take, too. The problem is that the Krakoa story as it stands now is "the ethnostate would have worked if not for the killer robot from the future and the Victorian chatGPT. Like Krakoa always had a shelf life, of course, I think we all knew there's no way a status quo that divergent would ever last forever, especially with the knowledge that sooner or later Disney was going to incorporate the X-stuff into the MCU, but yeah. Krakoa was a terrible idea in-universe, and a great one out of universe, and its fall should have reflected that. Like as it stands, yeah. I don't know, maybe it's me, but I always thought Krakoa represented the ultimate surrender to bigotry. Xavier and others telling the world openly that they surrender and admit defeat, the bigots are right and co-existence is not possible. Like, hell, it's an ethnostate with a literal Nazi on its governing council - until recently - and where when it was founded Apocalypse was like "of course I'll behave because I've finally won and now after all these ages you realize what I have been trying to teach you." To be satisfying and thematically consistent with what the politics of the X-Men have always been, Krakoa would have to fall from within. There would have to be the come to Jesus moment where someone in charge realizes "holy gently caress what are we doing?" That's not what happened. I dunno. Just really, really, really rubs me the wrong way. My only hopes from day one of all this was "our heroes realize an ethnostate founded on the concession that peaceful and harmonious coexistance is impossible is a terrible and monstrous idea" and that's not what happened.
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Mar 17, 2024 08:00
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Sephyr posted:I can only agree. But pulling that off would have required a consistent vision and leadership across multiple titles for years, and I'm not sure that's doable given the musical chairs style of talent managing that's in vogue. I guess? I don't know, I just don't think like "maybe our story shouldn't endorse the allegory that the best strategy for minorities to succeed or thrive is self-isolation in an ethnostate and that this plan is good and would work if not for killer robots from the future" is a hard pull. Like Krakoa is so obviously politically/morally at odds with what the X-Men have always been about and with modern generic liberl values that, yeah, it's wild to me that anyone could think there is any way it should end that does not involve our heroes realizing they hosed up hard. I liked Krakoa. It was fun sci-fi stuff. There was a lot of incredible character moments. Sins of Sinister was a blast. But yeah, I can't help but get a bad taste in my mouth when in the end the entire sttus quo/'arc' is one that endorses an ethnostate and implies it would have worked had it not been for the external factors. I get writers come and go, and plans change, but yeah. "Don't have a franchise that has always been about the struggles of minorities trying to find acceptance in society" come out with "actually diversity is a fool's errand and only ethnostates are viable" as the answer. Krakoa was the single greatest and most humiliating defeat mutantkind ever suffered, and we're just not going to acknowledge that, it seems.
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Mar 17, 2024 17:58
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Angry Salami posted:I always saw Krakoa as more of a 'safe space' than an ethnostate - the Krakoan gates meant it was never isolated, everyone's family and friends visited regularly, and plenty of mutants still lived elsewhere. That's all true of every ethnostate I'm aware of that has ever existed IRL. Like not the gates thing, but that visitation is allowed and that many of the ethnostate's in-group also lived outside of the ethnostate. Hell, some ethnostates have even allowed immigration, albeit with immigrants living as second-class, or worse, citizens. If Krakoa was just, like, a resort island that catered to mutants and only mutants, that's a safe space. But when you're a sovereign nation, and one that's literally being sold as the one and only path that doesn't result in your race's extermination, I think that's an ethnostate. Like if Krakoa isn't an ethnostate, it's either because you don't consider "mutant" a valid ethnicity/ethnicity-analogue or else the word "ethnostate" simply is meaningless. I'm pretty sure "utopian mutant ethnostate" is probably word-for-word the elevator pitch Hickman might have used. OnimaruXLR posted:I think it's important to remember that Krakoa was always Moira's plan, from Day 1. Without her filling Chuck and Magneto's heads with grim visions from 9 out of an infinite number of potential outcomes, they likely wouldn't have been pushed into working together in such a drastic fashion. And she had always planned to screw them, too. It wasn't an ethnostate or a safe space, it was a trap. Yeah, you raise a good point that 9 out of infinity is also a sample size so small that it is literally meaningless in the most literal sense. Of course, though, there's also audience bias - and I suppose in-universe bias given that Chuck and Magneto know of most of these universes - but yeah. Pretty much every future timeline we see related to the X-Men is some sort of hell future dominated by either Apocalypse or the Sentinels. "Ancient Egyptian fascism or killer robot fascism: take your pick." Although, yeah, the mere existence of the Askani poo poo and other future Ages of Apocalypse is proof enough that Moira is wrong and Krakoa is unnecessary. There are absolutely known futures where mutant dominate the Earth. They suck hardcore, but they exist. EDIT: Like, to clarify, yeah. I always thought the idea behind Moira's past lives was in part playing the joke of all the X-Men futures being incredibly lovely straight and doing something in-canon with that. "Every single possible future the comics have ever shown for mutants has sucked hardcore. Let's explore what that might mean for characters who are aware of this fact."
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Mar 18, 2024 14:14
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BrianWilly posted:I think we have start being careful about making direct 1:1 comparisons between fictional societies and IRL situations. There are definitely some valid comparisons between the fictional ethnostate of Krakoa and some real life nations, and then there are some blunt differences as well. Krakoa didn't displace anyone, it's not out to colonize anyone, and its systemic objective was always to work for the betterment of all races...again, aside from the blatant bad actors within that system who were working as much against Krakoa as they were against anyone else. Is that an unrealistic fantasy portrayal of an isolationist ethnostate? Absolutely, but the X-Men have always been an unrealistic fantasy portrayal of bigotry in a lot of ways, even as they tell great stories about bigotry in other ways, because the concept of the X-Men works as a metaphor and not a case study. Also the betterment of all races is explicitly not their goal. Xavier tells the UN when he announces Krakoa that mutants are the true inheritors of the Earth, and likewise Magneto makes even more extreme statements in that meeting in Israel. Just as Krakoa is saying the bigots are right and coexitance is impossible, they are also literally justifying Orchis' existence by saying that Gregor's thesis is correct and unless the mutants are wiped out, they will displace and replace baseline humanity. By Krakoa's own implicit admission, Orchis is racial self-defense, not simply another in a long line of hate groups. Hell, you could argue that Orchis represents Krakoa's human equivalent - a group founded for racial survival due to a mistaken belief in the inevitability of racial conflict, that then becomes co-opted by an rear end in a top hat with their own agenda. BrianWilly posted:You could say that the metaphor of Krakoa is that the only way for minority groups to survive is through isolationism and supremacist views, and that's a reasonable interpretation. At the same time though, you can also suggest that that the metaphor is more that the only way for minority groups to survive is by banding together and finding common ground instead of being at each others' throats all the time, which is also a valid message to take away. The takeaways not being exclusively one or the other is kind of the point, because right from the start Krakoa was intended to be a compromise between Xavier's assimilationist vision, Magneto's supremacist vision, and all the other mutant factions out there who have honestly made just as much trouble for each other as humans ever did in some wild parables of leftist infighting. Like if this was not the X-Men I probably wouldn't consider the metaphor so deeply. But it is the X-Men, something that has always been a metaphor for this sort of stuff, and Hickman is also a generally fantastic and thoughtful writer. Like if Hickman didn't realize the problems of Krakoa and all the poo poo he set-up, and is a guy who literally wrote a scene of Apocalypse and Xavier shaking hands without intending that to be seen as a sign of something - heh - sinister, then yeah, he's much dumber than I thought he was. EDIT: Like to repeat and be clear both Krakoa and Orchis share the same initial starting premise: if nothing is done mutants will replace baseline humans as the dominant species on the planet, and mutants and baseline humans cannot coexist peacefully now or then. They differ only in their conclusion ("gently caress yeah!" vs "ready the killer robots!") RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Mar 18, 2024 |
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Mar 18, 2024 16:55
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BrianWilly posted:Ehhh I would hardline disagree that anything Orchis did was justified by anything Krakoa did...which, despite any of Magneto's tough talk, lest we forget, can be more or less summarized as "going to their own island and leaving everyone else alone" and "giving everyone a bunch of free life-extending medicine." The idea that humanity would have legitimate cause to "defend" itself against that is an utter projection of self-victimhood, and if humans think that mutants are taking something away from them just by thriving on their own...well, that's their own fears and insecurities talking, much like real life bigots will see minority success, visibility, and mere existence as a threat to their own well-being, because in practice Krakoa was definitely not threatening anyone with anything other than a good time. I mean, wasn't just Magneto. Xavier seems pretty clear here that Orchis' thesis is correct and mutants will inherit the Earth. 
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Mar 18, 2024 17:39
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BrianWilly posted:That's fair, but you still really can't claim self-defense against a bunch of people literally packing their bags and promising to leave you alone, no matter how mean they were about it. I mean if we accept the thesis they are both working from, then extinction is going to result for either baseline humanity or mutantkind. If you are a baseline human being, what are you going to do? I'm not saying Orchis aren't villains even without the external influence of Nimrod, they absolutely are, but I'm saying that so is ultimately Krakoa in it own way. They are both operating on the same exact starting principles and from that doing what they believe is necessary to make their faction come out on to in the racial cold war. And likewise both of them are subverted and co-opted from within by forces - Sinister/Nimrod - that don't give a gently caress about any of this. I'm not sure how much of all that Hickman had planned, but yeah. The parallels seem so obvious when you think about them and Hickman is such a talented writer that it feels really improbable to me that he did not intend Orchis and Krakoa be seen as two fruits of the same poison tree.
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Mar 18, 2024 17:49
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Soonmot posted:Going extinct because your babies are born mutants is a dumb thing to be upset about and not an excuse to forcibly exterminate mutants. If you accept the premise that mutants represent a different species from humanity - a premise both Krakoa and Orchis are predicated upon - I'm not sure I agree? Like again, the premises we are working with here are 1. Mutants and humans are different species/races/whatever. 2. Mutants and humans cannot coexist peacefully in the same society. 3. If actions are not taken, mutants will replace humanity in a relative short period of time. I reject all three of those premises but yeah. If you accept them, things get murkier. And, I mean, that's good writing, and that's I think the point Hickman had in mind? These are evil ideas, so naturally they bear wicked fruit. Orchis is worse than Krakoa, but they are both fruit of a poison tree is my point. Only the ending we got seems to fail to realize this. Also, yeah, we're talking about people, not flawless logic robots. "We are going to bury you." is the sort of talk that gets people thinking of self-defense pretty much no matter the context.
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Mar 18, 2024 18:40
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Woebin posted:I read this as "mutants are/will be the dominant species", not "humanity will be extinct in favor of mutants". Trying to exterminate mutants as a response to that isn't self-defense (and the term "racial self-defense" sounds dangerously close to some "great replacement" type thinking to me - which, to be clear, is not something I'm accusing you of). No, I get you entirely. Like I agree "racial self defense" is loving nonsense because the premises on which the idea rests are nonsense. The issue is - at least in my reading here - the baseline humans fear a great replacement, and the mutant response is "your fears are justified and correct." Like, again, I'm not saying Orchis isn't wrong, I'm saying both sides are playing into the same ideological poison that creates that wrongness. I shouldn't need to post this, but yeah, building killer robots to murder people for the crime of being is not, you know acceptable. I'd also like to point out that all my issues with Krakoa are about the ending and the morality of it overall and agree the status quo, while it lasted, was a lot of fun. I just get soured on it all because I think any allegory that - by design or accident, and in this case I am saying it's the latter, I'm not accusing the writers of being bigoted assholes - argues multiculturalism/diversity is impossible and the only way for a minority group to thrive is to be set apart and left to itself is gross as hell. I don't think the writers we got did this poo poo on purpose, but I also don't think this mistake is one Hickman would have made, and that it's really unfortunate such a great run had to go out with a gross accidental aesop and a generally kind of underwhelming finish. Especially after the madness of Sins of Sinister, having the finale of Krakoa be "so the robots showed up and killed everyone" just feels like an anticlimax if nothing else.
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Mar 18, 2024 20:06
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Rand Brittain posted:Professor X as he appears in House of X and Powers of X is a supervillain. Like, the art is clearly giving him villain coding. Yeah. Like, really, it's his scenes with Apocalypse - plus the villain speech I shared - that make it clear to me Hickman knew what he was doing. And, yeah, I'm not saying Orchis and Krakoa are equally bad. I'm saying they are both bad and both working from the same bad starting premises. But one is definitely worse. Although, I mean, really, if you want to get down to it, Krakoa's responsible for enabling Sinister so you can arguably lump all the poo poo he did in Sins of Sinister and whatnot into it. Because they decided to enable and pal around with a known Nazi. Which, mind, is one of the other things that stuck in my craw, and that much is on Hickman. Magneto canonically knows Sinister personally from when Sinister was doing human experiments at Nai. I'm pretty sure the moment they said "let's let a Nazi into Krakoa, and in fact put them into a place of power" he'd have noped out, let alone "a Nazi you knew personally and who you knew murdered children." But yeah. I agree not everything has to be about politics/morality and shouldn't have to be. I enjoyed the hell out of Sins of Sinister, as I said. And if you did Krakoa as story about Eternals or superheros in total or whatever, it would not carry the baggage it does. But it's a story about a mutants, and that carries certain baggage whether or not the authors like or realize it. About half a century's worth of metaphor, coding, and general baggage doesn't simply vanish into the ether because someone wanted to tell a cool sci-fi story about a transhuman utopia. EDIT: Like, yeah, look at all the times the X-Men get cosmic or are just fighting various villains, or Inferno and poo poo. There's plenty of stuff you can do that don't involve The Metaphor/Allegory. If you want to tell cool sci-fi stories with them, you can. Claremont did for decades. But you cannot take a group of characters that have been allegories and metaphors for marginalized groups for longer than the audience or even the writers have been alive, give them an ethnostate, have them do highly politically charged things, and then expect not to communicate a message. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 08:37 on Mar 19, 2024 |
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Mar 19, 2024 08:35
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Krakoa is an ethnostate. Its existence is inextricably tied to the belief that harmonious coexistence is not possible and self-segregation is the only way for a marginalized group to ever be truly safe. It is founded on a rejection of multiculturalism and a concession to every single bigot the X-Men have ever encountered that "actually, yeah, you were right, we are an alien other to humanity and we cannot live in peace alongside you." That is not something that is true of every IRL nation. Every IRL ethnostate, probably, but not every IRL nation. I can't speak for others in this thread, but that's my point. It's the ethnostate and what that ays about marginalized groups that is the problematic issue. As I said, if Krakoa had been established simply as a nation for superpowered beings, or perhaps even for some kind of mutant group (in the literal sense of the word) in a generic sci-fi setting things might be different. But that's not the case. You have an explicit ethnostate being established on behalf of a group that have for over half a century served as an allegory and metaphor for pretty much every single marginalized group in American history. Whether or not the writers intend to say things with Krakoa or not is irrelevant, because by its very nature it will say things. Hence why Krakoa is fundamentally not, like, "what if Attilan but on Earth?" In terms of many of its policies, yeah, Krakoa compares favorably to most IRL nations in history. My issue is, again, that I find the idea of an ethnostate fundamentally toxic and predicated upon surrender to bigotry. If multiculturalism/diversity is possible, then an ethnostate is unnecessary. If it is not possible, well, is that really the message the X-Men comic books want to send? That's certainly a position, sure, but I don't think "[insert marginalized group here] should just gently caress off to an island somewhere because they will never be safe as long as they live in America." is the message anyone involved intended to send.
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Mar 20, 2024 00:45
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glitchwraith posted:I was speaking specifically on Krakoa's use of economics as a soft power, not on it's status as an ethnostate. All I can say to that is that mutants have always been an imperfect metaphor. I agree, it seemed Hickman may have had more to say on that front before plans changed, and that it is a flaw of the era that the topic wasn't further explored. I diagree about them agreeing with the bigots that they are "alien" or unable to live with humanity. If anything, they are attempting to play human's game as a last ditch effort to prevent another genocide, with all the saber rattling that often involves. Agree to disagree. I think when you decide that an island ethnostate is the only way for your marginalized group to survive or thrive, then you are saying that yeah, coexistance is impossible. Plus, again, the explicit remarks they make. But yeah, just the mere fact Krakoa is presented as the necessary option, not "an" option or a nice idea. Krakoa is presented by/to Xavier and Magneto as the only hope for mutantkind. And like, yeah, you can take the cynical view that it's impossible for any society to be progressive enough to truly accept and embrace a minority group within it, but I mean that sort of view seems both at odds with the general liberal view of both Marvel Comics and mainstream Western society in general, and also is straight up what bigots believe. Like, again, I don't see how you can really look at what Hickman set up and not see the parallels. Orchis and Krakoa are both reacting to the same two flawed premises; that mutants and humans are other to each other and one will supplant the either or be destroyed, and that as a result coexistance in harmony is not possible. They both then go about trying to make sure their side comes out on top. Kraka knows it has time on its side and plans to outlast baseline humanity, Orchis knows they don't have time and plan to wipe out the mutants before they can win by default. Two fruits of the same poison tree. Also while they have always bounced around between whether or not mutants are a minority group of humanity or a genuine other species, I feel like the Krakoa arc has seen more mutants - and our heroic ones at that - openly identifying as non-human than before. Although that' obviously something the series has often struggled with and whatnot. But yeah, again, just my point that at every turn we are seeing that Moira's influence is effectively Xavier internalizing all the hatred and bigotry he has been fed over the years. Like she says, she has to kill his dream. What has Xavier's dream always been? Like I don't know how much clearer they could have made it that, yeah, Krakoa represents surrender to the idea of coexistence. Moira says she must kill Xavier's dream, Xavier tells the leaders of the world that mutants are the new masters of the Earth, and Magneto straight up says they are the new gods. Xavier shakes hands with Apocalypse who tells him that he has finally accepted and internalized Apocalypse's teachings. danbanana posted:When Scott asks “Did you honestly think we were going to sit around forever and just take it?” he's not talking about multiculturalism. Never said he was.
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Mar 20, 2024 02:58
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danbanana posted:Orchis is literally a pre-planned genocidal response to the growing global population mutantdom. They aren't reacting to a flawed premisis. They are a premisis: mutants do not deserve to live. From HoX #1.   Implicitly the belief that humans and mutant are two separate species locked in a zero sum evolutionary struggle, and explicitly the belief that if Orchis does not take action soon, humanity will lose that battle. Also it's worth noting that Orchis is mostly AIM and SHIELD, not Hydra. Orchis is explicitly presented in HoX as operating on effectively the same underlying reasoning as Krakoa. "If something radical is not done, our species will go extinct." Again; I am not saying Orchis are not the villains - they are. They are genocidal bigoted fucks. But I am saying that Krakoa is built upon the same flawed premises and Hickman goes out of his way to show it. Krakoa's foundations are the exact same hateful lies that Orchis uses to justify their evil. Like, again, people seem to keep saying I'm arguing for an equivalence when I'm not. Saying two groups of people are doing bad things for the same bad reasons are not saying they are equally bad. I've never once said Orchis was justified or that Krakoa was as bad. I'm saying that Krakoa is buying into Orchis' lies and the two are feeding into eachother. Again: two fruits off the same poisonous tree. One is worse than the other, but Krakoa was pretty clearly base on the same rotten foundation. Whether Moira was a fool or a villain is the question, but yeah. I don't know where Hickman wanted to go with that. But I think it's pretty clear that he understood what Krakoa represented and positioned Orchis as its nightmare reflection. EDIT: And just to further clarify my own personal stakes in this, yeah. I'm Jewish. I'm neurodivergant. I'm chronically ill. I know what it's like to live in a society where a sizable part of it wants you dead for the crime of existing. And that's part of why I find the idea of Krakoa so horrific. The surrender of the struggle. Maybe the Moiras of the world are right. Maybe there is no society on Earth that will ever tolerate a minority group within it. That's certainly possible. It's also horrifying. It's not the sort of thing I expect from a character I am supposed to consider a hero. Fascists and bigots should always be fought, both with fists and with words. I do not want to think that the fascists are right and, actually, the only way for me and people like me to ever live in safety is if we give up the fight, admit defeat, and gently caress off to our own private club. Xavier had a dream. Krakoa is a gilded nightmare. RoboChrist 9000 fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Mar 20, 2024 |
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Mar 20, 2024 03:35
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Cartridgeblowers posted:Shadow King being every demonic/cosmic monster the X-Men have ever faced puts him back in line with Claremont's original intent in a way. in retrospect, as you point that out, a little surprising they didn't tie Enigma in with it more. Hell, there's your plot hook/resolution. The only timeline that can avoid the creation of Enigma... is the Mutant Wars! Would that be the longest dangling plot thread resolution in comic book history? Feel like it would have to be close. I know the Twelve, the Third Summers Brother, and the Gwen Stacy clone that was supposed to be killed off in the Clone Saga were also at least a decade apiece, but yeah.
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Mar 23, 2024 01:15
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BrianWilly posted:Upon reflection, it certainly is kind of remarkable that so many people -- and I'm not just talking about here, I'm talking in a lot of spaces -- got so antsy at the idea of Magneto telling the political representatives of the U.S., China, Russia, and loving Israel to get in line or to go pound sand. I mean I'm team Magneto, kinda. By any means necessary. My issue is not, to clarify, the means of Krakoa - I don't think Xavier's methodology works either. Xavier's goal is laudable, but not his means. You don't ask politely or wait for human rights. My issue is, as I've said repeatedly, that Krakoa represents the idea that coexistence is simply not possible. I've just pointed out the Magneto bit as evidence that, yeah, Krakoa and Orchis are operating on the same exact set of founding principles: mutants and humans are locked in an existential evolutionary battle and only one species will come out at top, and only at the expense of the other.
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Mar 27, 2024 06:55
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Essex/Enigma IS a dominion, though? He wasn't pretending to be one.
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Apr 20, 2024 06:56
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Excalibur - at least under Claremont and Davis - was basically Doctor Who by way of the X-Men. Inferno was really more of the X-Men being super involved with magical nonsense.
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Apr 24, 2024 23:26
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Wanderer posted:I think it's more that magic is a big part of the Marvel Universe as a whole. There's some magic stuff in almost every character's history at this point. I strongly suspect part of what allowed Claremont and Simonson to turn X-Men from a cancelled book into the most profitable IP Marvel had was the fact they saw "superhero" as less of a genre and more of a trope. Each of their four X-books had something unique to offer; X-Men was more or less classic superhero stuff, X-Force was similar but also had the soap opera and nostalgia angles, New Mutants was teen drama and angst, and Excalibur was, yeah, Doctor Who. Plus frequent tangential digressions into space opera and/or sword and sorcery nonsense and other genre things. Assuming you were remotely into comic books in any capacity, I'm pretty sure there's at least one or two arcs from that era by those two that appeals to you.
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Apr 25, 2024 10:15
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Isn't Genosha still the single greatest atrocity against mutantkind in the comics in terms of raw numbers? Also hell, do we have any inkling for how long Genoshan slavery was going on before Cameron Hodge forced the issue to a head? Like I know sliding timeline and all, but are we talking about years or generations of mutant slavery? Genosha is loving cursed and I can't imagine why any mutant would come within like a million mils of that place.
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Apr 27, 2024 03:32
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To be fair to Claremont; he did in many ways - along with Simonson - create the greater X-Men. By and large nearly every single X-Men depiction since his run has been either using his version of the characters, or directly responding to them. On top of that he had an unprecedentedly long run on the books, and got forced out in favor of people who did do a bad job of handling the characters and then ended up bailing on the company, anyway. Like yeah, he's a grumpy old man a bit and it's been decades, but I can see where he's coming from for sure.
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May 2, 2024 13:04
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| # ¿ May 13, 2024 03:22 |
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In fairness the fact that Kitty is no longer ~15 is somewhat worth noting. Yeah it was decades ago but still, she is one of those characters who's been allowed to grow up, despite status quo being god.
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May 10, 2024 14:43
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