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So, looking at Fantastic Four versus X-Men, it's kind of hard to avoid the conclusion that Reed had to dip into being a dick (not that he needs the excuse) because otherwise he'd be obviously in the right?
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Feb 27, 2020 01:45
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Skwirl posted:Ehh, anytime you have a conflict between super teams that have both saved the world on the regular you might have some characters acting a little out of character in order to fuel the conflict. Yeah, I'm not really disagreeing that he's being a dick about it, I just feel like him being a dick is necessary for the story because as far as the arguments being thrown around go he's basically 100% right.
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Feb 27, 2020 02:02
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Synthbuttrange posted:its small potatos compared to the time he built an extradimensional prison to hold people without trial. Which, when you get right down to it, was another case of "he's got to be an extra-big dick about this because otherwise he's obviously correct."
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Feb 27, 2020 02:41
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Or if you think they're a weirdo cult who can't be trusted not to brainwash your child. Not having powers won't kill him even if you accept that only the X-Men can help, which honestly Reed probably doesn't have to do.
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Feb 27, 2020 03:32
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I agree that there's a lot of great stuff here. I guess what I'm wondering is, wouldn't this go a lot better with Xavier as a well-intentioned cult leader rather than have him be obviously evil and creepy?
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Feb 27, 2020 16:12
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Krakoa would probably be a lot more popular if their manager would just keep his drat mouth shut.
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Feb 28, 2020 00:12
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I suppose you could compare it to the way that Steven Universe absolutely never has characters ask questions like "so, are we planning to leave Bismuth in the basement forever?" if that would take 20 seconds out of their 11-minute episode that's about something else. Eventually you find out that yes, Bismuth has been on Steven's mind, but it does bug people that it's never mentioned in between, and it requires a certain amount of faith in the medium that maybe modern comics publishers haven't earned lately.
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Feb 28, 2020 02:25
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galagazombie posted:I never liked the whole "Superheroes don't care about mutants" thing because it's just way to meta. Like of course characters don't show up in other peoples books outside the occasional crossover. You never say Spider-Man doesn't care about Californians because he never shows up to help in West Coast Avengers. And in fact their are tons of crossovers where non-mutant heroes help out the X-Men and vice-versa. Or stories where Captain America or whoever defends a mutant and punches a Sentinel or something. It seems a wholly invented animus. Yeah, it's not fair to blame the Fantastic Four for not doing things that, from the perspective of their books, they are doing. Or at least you can't build any heat off of it.
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Feb 28, 2020 02:28
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I think the main issue with that metaphor is that most Fantastic Four books that are not crossovers with the X-Men are not really written with the idea that there's a huge amount of anti-mutant supervillainy that the Fantastic Four are ignoring.
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Feb 29, 2020 03:08
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To some degree I think that's just the bugaboo of Moira's ideology? Making things better for mutants isn't good enough; mutants have to survive literally forever, which means futures where the gap between human and mutant becomes irrelevant are unacceptable.
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Oct 28, 2020 14:32
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It feels like the whole "Krakoa initiative" has three elements, as a story thing: 1) things that are obviously good and an improvement on the status quo, like mutants having a safe space and the ability to oppose their oppressors 2) things that are possibly bad and kind of worrisome in a good way (as a story element), like the thread of mutant supremacy that runs through it all and the fact that they've absolutely bought into the idea that mutants aren't humans 3) Professor X being a loving supervillain and the island being run mostly by people who are obviously evil I'm not really sure why (3) is there, since it makes it really hard to appreciate (1) or approach (2) in the proper spirit.
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Nov 19, 2020 18:36
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Are we thinking of the same Xavier here? I mostly remember the Xavier who spends most of his time swanning around the island emoting "I am a supervillain now". I feel like the Krakoa era of X-Men is squandering is potential by leavening 75% of "this is a well-meant and inspiring endeavor that's going to blow up in mutantkind's faces because they've embraced everything bad about the people who hate them" with 25% of "oh, let's just be blatantly evil and not notice."
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Dec 5, 2020 04:14
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mind the walrus posted:Xavier has always had good intentions and the take that he's a villain always boils down to "the ends don't justify the means" and Deadly Genesis where he was objectively a poo poo monster. That's not a bad take either, but it's a bit stolid after roughly a quarter of a century beating that drum. See, when I see a comic book using this visual language to depict someone, the message I receive is "this person is super-evil." He has villain coding. Adder Moray posted:The best outcome, IMO, is Krakoa being permanent, but the governance thereof being fluid and thus, sometimes, Xavier et al aren't as welcome as others. Mutants retain their homeland and maintain a strong outward face while having the occasional internal struggle. I think the main issue with Krakoa being permanent is the persistent subtext of "we will conquer the world and make non-mutants a permanent underclass as soon as we can get around to it." Well, that and, like with the Superhuman Registration Act, I feel like "mutants will not be subject to human law" is one of those things that's going to mean whatever a given writer wants it to mean. Some of those things are basically justifiable and some are pants-on-head ridiculous.
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Dec 5, 2020 05:17
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BrianWilly posted:The problem is that mutants are by and large not a racial lineage. Anyone, from any background, could become a mutant. It's more like someone finding out that they're gay in their teens, instead of any racial or cultural heritage (for the most part). Imagine someone making Gay Island and telling everyone, alright pack your bags and get with our program, and then every gay person just...does it? Like it doesn't sound completely mental? Yeah, the thing is that a lot of important details have been left unspecified, and until they do people are forced to fill them in with their own answers, and those answers are not going to be the same in all cases and thus people will take away a very different picture of what's going on.
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Dec 5, 2020 06:12
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Adder Moray posted:Subtext that exists in your head and not the actual books. No, I think they've been pretty clear about being "the new gods" of this world who are not subject to human law. Magneto's speech while eating steak lays it out pretty clearly, wherever that was.
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Dec 5, 2020 19:03
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It would probably come across differently if the X-Men weren't setting themselves up as future gods of Planet Earth with a strong vibe of "we look forward of doing to you what you did to us."
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Jan 7, 2021 23:30
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glitchwraith posted:I think it's important to note that Xavier isn't buying fully into the anti-human sentiments. He's just realized that the only way mutants will get a level playing field is to control the field themselves. He's just not preaching coexistence as much because after four or five genocides, it becomes politically disadvantageous to keep giving the perpetrators further chances to reform themselves. That seems like a pretty good definition of "anti-human sentiments" to me.
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Feb 11, 2021 02:40
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They're really getting into it with Krakoa now, and I'd love to talk about it, but talking about it means dealing with the internet's love of ironic fascism, which I hate.
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Apr 21, 2021 18:53
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:Way of X noooooo what are you doing don’t even say that loving word ....is it Kitty again?
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May 19, 2021 21:54
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I would assume that there's no theoretical limit to how much magnetism Magneto can harness, but there are practical limits, such as his ability to perceive the things he's trying to manipulate. So, an Omega-level can move the Sun, but may not have a good way of determining a good place to move the Sun to (and so they leave it alone).
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Jun 17, 2021 03:42
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I feel like it's legitimate to say that "twenty major crossover ago" is "a very long time" in comics terms. I also feel like it's legitimate to say "maybe bringing back a version of Wanda without all the character development that made her much less of a ticking time bomb is a very bad idea", which I didn't see anybody bringing up in the previews, but then again, giving that there seems to be some consensus that having her be Female and Hysterical back then was a bad move, possibly a version of her-from-then-as-it-is-today would be completely different from how she was portrayed then-when-it-was-then.
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Aug 19, 2021 00:40
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danbanana posted:Another major contributor for the Krakoans not resurrecting humans is, y'know, they always trying to genocide them. Are they, though? I don't feel like "humans" are trying to genocide mutants in the same way that "Americans" didn't do the various things their government does. Most humans have literally zero input into what ORCHIS is doing or the creation of Sentinel robots. Honestly, I feel like a major weak point of this era is that everybody in it is allowed to say "mutants are not human" and there's no pushback.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:22
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danbanana posted:I mean... "we" elected the people that, say, invaded Afghanistan and Iraq so while not directly "my" fault, I don't think an Afghani would be too concerned about the subtleties of that argument, and with reason. "I" was a child when that happened and in the twenty years since I don't recall having a meaningful chance to elect someone who would have reversed that decision. Most humans, even in a democracy, have distressingly small ability to choose their leadership! This is where the whole shared universe starts to make everything fall down, though, because most non-mutant titles are not written under the assumption that mutant genocides are going on and Captain America is ignoring them.
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Aug 19, 2021 22:56
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Gaz-L posted:I think the part that gets uncomfortable is the idea that, say, Galactus is having one of his bad days, rocks up to Earth for dindins... the X-Men just jump in their magic flower portals to Mars and gently caress off to let the humans all die? I mean, the part that gets uncomfortable is that everybody who is actually in charge of Krakoa is giving off a fairly clear, if subtextual, vibe of "we are going to establish mutant supremacy and make non-mutants into a subjugated class; we look forward to doing to you as you did unto us". In that context, regarding humanity as a single entity that can bear communal guilt for the creation of Sentinel robots becomes extremely sinister.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:36
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Adder Moray posted:I mean, not really. They literally tell us what they're planning on doing and it's not that. I mean, Magneto's speech while eating steak spells it out pretty clearly. quote:And you can claim "secret ulterior motive", but it's just not there on the page and the fact that a good chunk of people immediately decided that was the plan and still haven't considered that maybe, no, the story the writers are telling isn't about how the allegorical fictional minority is just waiting for the first opportunity to enslave the Really? I feel like "this figure's ideology is so obviously correct that we need to make sure we through some serious evil in there so nobody starts thinking this stuff is good" is a commonly-remarked-on failure mode of modern Marvel media.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:47
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danbanana posted:Magneto telling the representatives of the powers actively trying to genocide him AGAIN "You have new gods now" isn't a proclamation of mutant supremacy. It's a statement of power to the current power brokers. The whole Davos issue is about how Krakoa is beating the powers at their own game. No one is advocating subjugation of humanity (*insert Beast joke) . Prideful comments about being the evolutionary future isn't supremacy, especially when that's literally a plot point! Wakanda generally isn't portrayed as actively working towards world domination. And when they do do lovely things like "we have a cure for cancer and you can't have it", they get called out on it, in-story and out-of-story. Honestly, people are reminding me again that a lot of the takes people have on Krakoa depend on how they choose to interpret the subtext behind the enigmatic or deceptive remarks made by characters like Xavier and Magneto, which is a very annoying mode of storytelling and a comparison to World of Warcraft that I didn't expect to be making.
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Aug 20, 2021 02:59
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I have to admit I'm deeply amused by a character who exists in a broader cultural context openly laughing at the idea that "human" and "mutant" are meaningfully separate groups, given how frequently the X-books take it completely seriously.
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Dec 24, 2021 06:16
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Michelle Trachtenburg recently came out and said that when she worked on Buffy, Whedon was specifically not allowed to be alone with her, which is about three layers of nonspecific "yikes".
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Jan 17, 2022 19:18
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I feel like the issue with Krakoa, aside from the large number of readers who are eager to jump on the "death to humans" train, is that they've incorporated so many Comics Bad Ideas that it's hard to separate them from the normal bad ideas. Like, when Krakoa eventually explodes, are people going to remember it as happening because they decided to judge people based on whether they have an X-gene rather than the content of their characters, or because they decided to make Mr. Sinister and Apocalypse (let alone the villains who aren't officially villains like Professor X and Beast) part of the government?
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Jun 28, 2022 19:18
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danbanana posted:The what train? It's been there from the very beginning, when they announced that mutants would no longer be subject to human laws and Magneto gleefully declared themselves the new gods of the planet. It's kind of hard to discuss, since as far as I can see there's a Civil War situation going on where there's no real agreement on what "not subject to human laws" means, especially since it's hard to believe that any government would ever have agreed to most interpretations even to get life-extension drugs.
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Jun 28, 2022 19:57
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danbanana posted:Please explain what "human laws" would mean and how "mutants running an independent nation and do so with some loving bluster" violates them? And how that translates to "actually we're going to kill all humans?" Frankly, it's not my job to explain that? It's Marvel's job and as far as I can tell while not reading anything like every X-book they're not doing a great job at it. But it is extremely explicit, as in, this is like the very first thing that happened in House of X, that mutants have declared themselves not subject to human laws as part of an "amnesty" that somehow applies infinitely forward in time.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:38
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Skwirl posted:We (USA) currently have a standing plan to invade the Hague in case any American get's brought up on war crimes charges by them. It's that kinda thing. But this is the opposite of that, in that it apparently involves the USA agreeing that it has no power over crimes being committed in its own sovereign territory by people who are quite possibly also US citizens.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:45
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danbanana posted:Something Cool and Good! Using economic and political leverage to help protect your people from those that have repeatedly genocided them seems perfectly fine to me! I feel like the fact that you're able to take this reading from what was actually said is a pretty excellent example of the kind of reaction I was talking about.
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Jun 28, 2022 20:54
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Well, what of it? They're still planning to take over the world. The sin at the root of Krakoa is that its founders allowed themselves to be taken over ideologically, even as they seized material advantage. They've conceded that the bigots trying to kill them were right all along: "human" and "mutant" are distinct categories and will always be at odds. They've accepted that merciless race war is a natural part of evolution, whatever that is, and built their society around being the ones who win.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:13
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Abroham Lincoln posted:As has been repeatedly rebuffed, this isn't the "death to humans" train, it's a factually and textually oppressed group who many people allegorically identify with standing up for themselves against people who want them in camps and/or dead. No, I've definitely seen people online who are extremely on the "death to humans" train.
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Jun 28, 2022 21:16
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Arguably it could be interesting if the judgment forces Beast to recognize the fact that he has no standards whatsoever.
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Sep 8, 2022 07:52
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That and the way Krakoa is monolithically focused on the X-gene as what makes you a mutant, to the point of excluding non-X-gene mutants like Franklin Richards.
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Feb 27, 2023 03:06
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If Dominions transcend alternate timelines, it seems sort of necessary to avoid them being infinite in number.
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May 25, 2023 20:19
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Nessus posted:Probably, yeah. I imagine a lot of aliens are aware of there being two subtypes of human, one of which is rarer, has innate powers like the Imperial Guard, and has a lot of drama, but are basically nice people. The other ones are laden with cynical realpolitik and seek out "hard decisions" to make at all times! I feel like Brand was very specific about finding the human/mutant drama extremely comical because literally nobody else in the universe recognizes or cares about the difference between the two "races".
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Aug 29, 2023 02:10
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site posted:well when your entire island society is built on x-gene ethnonationalism there's a difference! Yeah, and there was honestly a lot to be done with "a prominent 'mutant' who has lived as a mutant and thought they were a mutant is not technically a mutant; what do we do?" but apparently they didn't want to do that.
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Nov 28, 2023 22:35
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