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we covered some good ground here https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3854887 but now that its Ukrainian Genocide Memorial day on twitter i think its worth dredging this Fun topic up again https://twitter.com/yevhenfedchenko/status/1198376296759398400 https://twitter.com/CanadaKaz/status/1198391100387536896 10 million holy moley is all this a form of holocaust denial/appropriation? I don't know, but many people are saying things such as this.
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Nov 24, 2019 02:23
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oh and is it Good, or Bad, that your canadian tax dollars pay for this 
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Nov 24, 2019 02:24
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the problems are bad but the causes, the causes are very good
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Nov 24, 2019 02:26
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if you like your grain, you can keep it - joseph stalin
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Nov 24, 2019 02:27
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Homeless Friend posted:if you like your grain, you can keep it - joseph stalin lol
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Nov 24, 2019 02:30
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we really need someone to do their homework and explain this for us
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Nov 24, 2019 02:31
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Poniard posted:we really need someone to do their homework and explain this for us the monkey paw curled a finger
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Nov 24, 2019 02:40
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Homeless Friend posted:if you like your grain, you can keep it - joseph stalin industrialization for all who want it
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Nov 24, 2019 02:43
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Poniard posted:we really need someone to do their homework and explain this for us Viktor Orbán is proof that the Soviet Union didn't crush dissent enough when they had the chance.
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Nov 24, 2019 02:45
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stalin paid his buddies at the haarp institute to make sure it didn't rain "no rain? no grain" -- joeseph "joestar" stalin
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Nov 24, 2019 02:51
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big structural kulaks
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Nov 24, 2019 02:52
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waiting patiently for the ongoing war on the poor to be recognized by the UN as genocide
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Nov 24, 2019 02:54
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the domor, the holodomor, and nothing but the domor
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Nov 24, 2019 03:04
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few times i been around that track so it's not gonna starve like that 'cause i ain't no holodomor i ain't no holodomor
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Nov 24, 2019 03:09
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Homeless Friend posted:if you like your grain, you can keep it - joseph stalin legit lold
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Nov 24, 2019 03:33
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jem and the holodomor
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Nov 24, 2019 04:24
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no one ever talks about the kazakh famine :borat:
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Nov 24, 2019 05:41
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it literally an anti-ukranian russian propoganda to push the narrative "oh lol just a tiny harsh time in the ukraine" which got co-opted in western academic circles, in a misunderstanding that to defend the legacy of socialism you have to rationalize everything bad that happened in the ussr hope that helps from Zhurzhenko, T. (2011). “Capital of Despair: Holodomor Memory and Political Conflicts in Kharkiv after the Orange Revolution.” East European Politics and Societies, 25(3), 597–639. doi:10.1177/0888325410387646 quote:Among the other parties traditionally enjoying support in Kharkiv, the Socialists should be briefly mentioned. While in November 2006 the Socialists in the Ukrainian parliament, together with the OU and BYUT, voted for the Law on the Holodomor as genocide, in Kharkiv they showed little interest in this issue. Instead, they focused on the memory of WWII and their traditional support of the Soviet veterans. The Communists openly opposed the interpretation of the Holodomor as genocide and its manmade character. While recognizing some tactical mistakes of the Bolshevik leadership, they explained the famine by natural causes. Thus, Alexei Perepelitsa, the second secretary of the Communist Party oblast’ committee, claimed that Sloboda Ukraine has always suffered from periodically bad harvests: for exam-ple, in 1902 two hundred thousand peasants starved in the region.78 Referring to Stalin’s article “Dizzy with Success,” the Kharkiv Communist leader argued that the party leadership at that time tried to correct the voluntarism of the local cadres. Interestingly, the Communists often reinterpret the discourse on the genocide for their own sake and accuse the Ukrainian leadership of a “new genocide,” pointing to the mass impoverishment, alcoholism, and diminishing life expectancy in Ukraine after 1991.
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Nov 24, 2019 05:52
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Zas posted:no one ever talks about the kazakh famine :borat: bad too people eat good starve bad
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Nov 24, 2019 05:52
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literal well-known cultural genocide/forced resettlement against the crimean tatars too but 
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Nov 24, 2019 05:56
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was it good or bad khruschev sent those tanks to hungary
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Nov 24, 2019 05:59
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genocide explainer rides again
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Nov 24, 2019 06:02
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Holodomor is that guy that only says 'Holodomor' all the time, right?
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Nov 24, 2019 06:35
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I'm sure the Tsar royalty never, ever, did anything wrong and caused a single famine in their hundreds of years of leadership
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Nov 24, 2019 06:39
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out of curiosity does anyone actually think there literally wasn't a famine or is just "whoops, our bad"
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Nov 24, 2019 06:57
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StashAugustine posted:out of curiosity does anyone actually think there literally wasn't a famine or is just "whoops, our bad" rt/sputnik have come pretty close to it ie that it wasn't particularly bad for ukraine vis a vis russia anyway it sucks that nazis have coopted it as a comparison to the holocaust but the left absolutely should not coopt genocide denial from them, it is a Bad Look ethos: am a jewish ruski
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Nov 24, 2019 07:09
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Nov 24, 2019 07:09
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The Ukrainian famine was neither intentionally started nor a genocide. Even biographers critical of Stalin, such as Kotkin, do not support the notion that he aimed to starve Ukraine. His agricultural collectivization and simultaneous need to feed the rapid expansion of urban industry played a role, as did climate and kulak intransigence.
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Nov 24, 2019 08:04
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Mantis42 posted:The Ukrainian famine was neither intentionally started nor a genocide. Even biographers critical of Stalin, such as Kotkin, do not support the notion that he aimed to starve Ukraine. His agricultural collectivization and simultaneous need to feed the rapid expansion of urban industry played a role, as did climate and kulak intransigence. Precisely. Also the whole, pre-Russian Revolution thing of life under, uh, the feudalistic royal family that treated Ra-Ra-Rasputin like a sex object. Maybe feudalism was wrong, who knows? Maybe the people transitioning from said awful feudalism with a lack of resources and historical references were figuring it out as they went along? You don't have to write it off as some amazing time, but hey, the "Victims of Communism" took all their money and erected some lovely billboards in the center of Times Square, New York City. The loving ugliest manufactured place in all of humanity. Maybe someone consider that perhaps these radical anti-anyone-to-the-left-of-Ronnie-Raygun might possibly be arguing in bad faith? Maybe this whole narrative is probably less relevant than the whole, concentration camps along the border reality that is actually happening right now, but liberals want to get their poo poo in like they think they're Low Ki dressed up as Agent 47 or some bullshit. If you asked a modern radical leftist, they'd tell you we are in a radically horrific neo-feudal shithole waiting for climate change to wipe us all off the map before anything else. Why do people feel these ways with such extremity? Maybe that's something worth interrogating before the next time you post.
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Nov 24, 2019 08:15
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It seems like a combination of poor organization and incredible incompetence at the government level. Unfortunately it has become a whataboutism whenever the topics of capitalist incompetence or straight up Nazis committing genocide comes up.
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Nov 24, 2019 08:16
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Taintrunner posted:the feudalistic royal family that treated Ra-Ra-Rasputin like a sex object
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Nov 24, 2019 08:28
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idk bout the holodomor but stalin did totally commit genocide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aardakh
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Nov 24, 2019 09:13
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regardless the real argument obviously isn't about "lol rain" but whether the failure in redistributing food was intentional to begin with, or whether they just scrambled to hide their mistakes anyway if anyone was actually curious as to why everybody keeps throwing out random numbers as death counts its because of the systematic destruction of death records following the famine from this, with the original russian memo  from Population Losses in the Holodomor and the Destruction of Related Archives: New Archival Evidence (2008) (which then goes on to point out the documented destruction of relevant records until 1962): quote:According to preliminary calculations, the probable number of books produced in 1932-33 could amount to 10,000 units. Respectively, the number of death records could amount to 1.5 million registrations. Taking into account the fact that the ZAGS records underestimated the deaths by at least one half, the true number of registered deaths could have amounted to 3 million persons if registered properly. not an endorsement has issued a correction as of 09:19 on Nov 24, 2019 |
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Nov 24, 2019 09:15
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Homeless Friend posted:if you like your grain, you can keep it - joseph stalin
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Nov 24, 2019 16:00
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holodorable and bengali blues.
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Nov 24, 2019 16:07
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we starved some folks -stalin
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Nov 24, 2019 16:08
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fun case of crisis plus guy at the top didn't care closest American analogue is probably Reagan with AIDS; saying he -caused- it is a bit of a stretch, but it's totally uncontroversial that because he and his administration didn't give a poo poo about the people dying a lot more people died than needed to.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:02
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well crisis plus the guy at the top actually had to take responsibility, unlike a free market full of Rational Actors that are incapable of morality and therefore can do nothing wrong; if people starved it is because those people failed to Act Rationally for their own interests.
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Nov 24, 2019 17:37
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That's bait
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Nov 24, 2019 23:12
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holodomor is my favorite pokemon
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Nov 24, 2019 23:14
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