did the holodomor actuallyhappen - mk2 - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > did the holodomor actuallyhappen - mk2

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

it literally an anti-ukranian russian propoganda to push the narrative "oh lol just a tiny harsh time in the ukraine" which got co-opted in western academic circles, in a misunderstanding that to defend the legacy of socialism you have to rationalize everything bad that happened in the ussr

hope that helps

from
Zhurzhenko, T. (2011). �Capital of Despair: Holodomor Memory and Political Conflicts in Kharkiv after the Orange Revolution.� East European Politics and Societies, 25(3), 597�639. doi:10.1177/0888325410387646

quote:

Among the other parties traditionally enjoying support in Kharkiv, the Socialists should be briefly mentioned. While in November 2006 the Socialists in the Ukrainian parliament, together with the OU and BYUT, voted for the Law on the Holodomor as genocide, in Kharkiv they showed little interest in this issue. Instead, they focused on the memory of WWII and their traditional support of the Soviet veterans. The Communists openly opposed the interpretation of the Holodomor as genocide and its manmade character. While recognizing some tactical mistakes of the Bolshevik leadership, they explained the famine by natural causes. Thus, Alexei Perepelitsa, the second secretary of the Communist Party oblast� committee, claimed that Sloboda Ukraine has always suffered from periodically bad harvests: for exam-ple, in 1902 two hundred thousand peasants starved in the region.78 Referring to Stalin�s article �Dizzy with Success,� the Kharkiv Communist leader argued that the party leadership at that time tried to correct the voluntarism of the local cadres. Interestingly, the Communists often reinterpret the discourse on the genocide for their own sake and accuse the Ukrainian leadership of a �new genocide,� pointing to the mass impoverishment, alcoholism, and diminishing life expectancy in Ukraine after 1991.

Similar positions have been taken by Natalia Vitrenko�s Progressive Socialist Party and by pro-Russian organizations in Kharkiv, such as Russkii Blok, Russko-Ukrainskii Soiuz, Rus� Triedinaia, and �Za iazykovoie ravnopravie.� But if for the Communists the denial of the Holodomor serves to save the legitimacy of the Communist idea and the historical ancestry from Bolshevism, for the pro-Russian organizations it is about the delegitimization of Ukrainian nationalism and even Ukrainian independence. These organizations, which have been raising the issues of the Russian language and of a �common historical memory,� are increasingly supported from abroad, for exam-ple by the �Russkii Mir� Foundation and by the Russian consulate. Despite their marginal status in local politics, these pro-Russian organizations regularly create media events and draw public attention to these issues, often by rather provocative actions (e.g., the �Russian March� on 4 November, the Russian national holiday). Often cooperating with the Communists and the Soviet veterans� organizations, they also instrumentalize the genocide discourse. For example, by pointing to the falling number of ethnic Russians in Ukraine after 1991, the local leader of Russkii Blok Gennadii Makarov demagogically tries to turn the Holodomor discourse against its authors.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2019 05:52

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:33

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

Zas posted:

no one ever talks about the kazakh famine :borat:

bad too

people eat good starve bad

# ¿ Nov 24, 2019 05:52

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

literal well-known cultural genocide/forced resettlement against the crimean tatars too but :shrug:

# ¿ Nov 24, 2019 05:56

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

StashAugustine posted:

out of curiosity does anyone actually think there literally wasn't a famine or is just "whoops, our bad"

rt/sputnik have come pretty close to it ie that it wasn't particularly bad for ukraine vis a vis russia

anyway it sucks that nazis have coopted it as a comparison to the holocaust but the left absolutely should not coopt genocide denial from them, it is a Bad Look

ethos: am a jewish ruski

# ¿ Nov 24, 2019 07:09

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

regardless the real argument obviously isn't about "lol rain" but whether the failure in redistributing food was intentional to begin with, or whether they just scrambled to hide their mistakes

anyway if anyone was actually curious as to why everybody keeps throwing out random numbers as death counts its because of the systematic destruction of death records following the famine

from this, with the original russian memo

from Population Losses in the Holodomor and the Destruction of Related Archives: New Archival Evidence (2008) (which then goes on to point out the documented destruction of relevant records until 1962):

quote:

According to preliminary calculations, the probable number of books produced in 1932-33 could amount to 10,000 units. Respectively, the number of death records could amount to 1.5 million registrations. Taking into account the fact that the ZAGS records underestimated the deaths by at least one half, the true number of registered deaths could have amounted to 3 million persons if registered properly.

The "cause of death" vital statistics are truly unique data which, of course, require specific expertise to study. The general clinical presentation of deaths in Ukraine covers about two hundred diagnoses; their typology and frequency varies with region, season, age, sex, occupation, etc. Thus, direct indications of death because of starvation ("exhaustion," "avitaminosis," "dystrophy," "dropsy [edema]," "lack of protein," "unbalanced diet," "starvation," "malnutrition," "bread-free," "eating chaff," etc.) constitute 7-10 percent (for Khmelnytskyi oblast) to 20 percent (Luhansk oblast) and even up to 30 percent (Cherkasy oblast) of the total registered deaths, contrary to the 1.5-2 percent that was stated in an earlier paper.19

In most cases (30 to 50 percent of all vital statistics registers) the cause of death was indicated as "unknown," "not identified"; sometimes the identified "starvation" diagnosis was falsified and replaced by "unknown."10

The second most frequent category is "old age" and "old age dementia" diag- noses (10-20 percent), and the third, cardiovascular and pulmonary diseases (about 10 percent). Surprisingly, gastric diseases take the fourth and fifth places (7-8 percent). Presumably, the diagnoses of infectious diseases were far from accurate (despite epidemics, "camp fever" and "typhoid fever" diagnoses are rare, at 1-2 percent).

Obviously, such clinical presentations are not true. At the same time, it is possible to assume that further expertise in diagnosis, notwithstanding the falsifications and registration conditions, would allow for a better assessment of the ratio of natural mortality and mortality owing to starvation. In the given context it would be possible to explain certain regularities in identifying some euphemistic diagnoses ("heart dropsy," "intestinal tuberculosis," "swelling," "dysentery") as well as certain compound diagnoses ("pneumonia-emaciation," "myocarditis-emaciation"). To this end, an "extreme old age" death diagnosis (for a fifty- to fifty-five-year-old person) should fall within the same category.
...
Today it is clear that this instruction was not followed completely: approxi- mately one-third of the death registers survived, staying at local ZAGS offices. The rest of them, withdrawn and transferred to raion executive committees, were destroyed only later-most probably in the summer of 1941, before the retreat of Soviet troops.25 It is safe to conclude that the destruction of death registers for 1932-33 is additional evidence of their value and authenticity.

not an endorsement has issued a correction as of 09:19 on Nov 24, 2019

# ¿ Nov 24, 2019 09:15

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

hmm yes quite pleased about this genocide thread. continue, plebes

# ¿ Nov 25, 2019 03:07

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 14, 2024 18:33

not an endorsement: Mar 14, 2008; Personally, I think it's problematic that a sitting Senator has a racial slur for a last name.

the localized genocides of native american tribes and also the larger scope of native american genocide absolutely should be acknowledged by both the us government and the un and it is hosed as well, and the us is complicit in the perpetuation of other genocides across the world (currently, notably, the kurdish displacement from syria)

please put this thread out of its misery

e: also gently caress australia

not an endorsement has issued a correction as of 03:34 on Nov 25, 2019

# ¿ Nov 25, 2019 03:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > did the holodomor actuallyhappen - mk2