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I feel like this is an important topic that is going off the rails in the wwe thread right now. At its core this is a super hosed hobby where people get tossed on their heads largely for pleasure as most wrestlers dont make any money, but we all love it anyway. There is of course a huge chance to get injured in a match and no wrestler will ever say too stop the match. So what is to be done about it, i think its relatively complicated and there is no answer but the biggest hurdle would be the fans. Possibly more power for the refs to stop things, a more willing production crew to call the match off, an end to finish the match at all costs? Kinda hope AEW will change something as its wrestler run but you would have to change that wrestler mindset first.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:01
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thing is, in most places nowadays matches will be stopped for things like that. you're still gonna get a lot of people "playing through the pain" but for the most part wrestlers are a lot smarter about those kind of injuries (if they haven't gotten completely scrambled and go on auto-pilot). it just doesn't happen as often in wwe because everything is micromanaged down to the smallest details. as jesus WEP pointed out in the discussion thread, there's several people watching in the back and around the ring not saying anything, because they don't want to piss off vince.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:11
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A couple pro sports leagues (the NHL and NFL, if not more) are implementing concussion spotters which seems like a good start, although their efficacy is still a bit questionable. Idea being that if they see a likely concussion happen, the player is taken off the field/ice and evaluated, potentially preventing them from going back out there. When you have something shorter like a wrestling match that might only go 5-10 minutes at most, that's probably not as easy to do. I don't know if they have independent doctors evaluating the talent when they come back through the curtain, and what kind of power they have if they're there at all. First people would likely be training up the referees to recognize when something's gone wrong and give them the power to end a match prematurely if something looks really bad. I can't imagine Vince being wild about the idea though.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:16
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"fight through the pain" is definitely not just a wrestling thing but a sports thing in general and it needs to stop. participant safety should be paramount and what happened with kairi last night was awful.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:22
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like in "real" combat sports, the ref should be the one that makes the determination if its safe for a wrestler to continue. If the ref is asking wrestler if they're ok and all they get is "mdhfushfs" its time to take the match home. Either kayfaybe it and do a flukey rollup or just kill the match.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:32
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The part where I'm hoping AEW make the biggest difference is simply in reducing the amount of matches someone has to wrestle in order to make a living. Each match is a chance for something to go wrong and someone to get hurt, and the longer wrestlers spend on the road the longer it takes for them to heal (travel sucks and wrecks the body even for entirely healthy people). Yes, house shows are fun for those attending, but the sort of loops that talent go on for companies like WWE and New Japan put on have severe physical consequences.
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Dec 16, 2019 17:57
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Lamuella posted:The part where I'm hoping AEW make the biggest difference is simply in reducing the amount of matches someone has to wrestle in order to make a living. so far many viewers have not taken kindly to this. But they have tried to make it better like having darby allin show up just to help someone to their feet, or cody rhodes show up just to take up all the time on the show sitting in a car
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Dec 16, 2019 18:29
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i think that is already happening according to Proud and Powerful. Reduced work seems like the most basic step. Maybe there can be a jump in ring technology?
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Dec 16, 2019 18:54
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you can still break your neck in a bouncehouse.
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Dec 16, 2019 18:58
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Cavauro posted:so far many viewers have not taken kindly to this. But they have tried to make it better like having darby allin show up just to help someone to their feet, or cody rhodes show up just to take up all the time on the show sitting in a car I'm not saying use the wrestlers on the show less as much as I'm saying put wrestlers on the road less. Even a wrestler who appears at every AEW show is wrestling once a week plus pay per views, because they don't run house shows etc. In order to not look like I'm WWE bashing, the NXT schedule is also a much healthier schedule for talent.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:00
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erect some ringposts on sonny kiss's bottom folks. Funny word
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Dec 16, 2019 19:00
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Lamuella posted:I'm not saying use the wrestlers on the show less as much as I'm saying put wrestlers on the road less. Even a wrestler who appears at every AEW show is wrestling once a week plus pay per views, because they don't run house shows etc. NXT runs out an injury report each week, how is that safer?
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Dec 16, 2019 19:05
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coconono posted:NXT runs out an injury report each week, how is that safer? They wrestle less shows. Like, if we assume that the risk of being injured in an individual NXT match is identical to the risk of being injured in an individual RAW match, the average NXT worker is less likely to be injured than the average RAW worker because they wrestle less often.
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Dec 16, 2019 19:10
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the risk isn't identical because they go harder because there are less opportunities. that reminds me. back in the early days of the nfl they didn't have a lot of pads or hard helmets. they feared for their bodies back then, but don't anymore. people on the main roster know they have to pace themselves. but people in NXT just lift weights and make their arms weigh 50 pounds each and snap their legs off trying to do planchas. They're all dying. it's hell on ice
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Dec 16, 2019 19:12
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I feel like NJPW does it right by promoting few singles matches per year and mainly promoting multiman tag matches in house shows/undercard matches, but do we have any definitive data on that?
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Dec 16, 2019 19:17
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the safest wrestlers have masks because they are padded
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Dec 16, 2019 19:18
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WatermelonGun posted:the safest wrestlers have masks because they are padded Jushin Liger is covered from head to toe, so this definitely checks out
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Dec 16, 2019 19:38
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WatermelonGun posted:the safest wrestlers have masks because they are padded Counterpoint: Hayabusa
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Dec 16, 2019 19:50
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Dell_Zincht posted:Counterpoint: Hyabusa it wasn’t a spine mask
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Dec 16, 2019 19:50
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I've made a big post on the obvious failure in WWE concussion protocol last night in the WWE thread and I can't be bothered to copy and paste it in here: basically last night was a massive failure for them and they need to really examine their processes to figure out what exactly failed but they won't since The Safe Company don't care about safety. WWE is the company that you can talk about the most here since they have the bigger issues. A lot of long-term injuries aren't through doing certain dangerous moves but through just repetition of bumps and unless everyone just does grapplefuck forever you can't really eliminate the back bump from wrestling so you have to look at things like the schedule and the sort of matches people are working. WWE have the biggest schedule (four days a week for main roster people; with three days for travelling and resting) which isn't enough for people to heal up properly; and they do a lot of singles matches and even gimmick matches on their house shows which means that you have people working some pretty drat serious matches for four days a week all year and then not really getting prolonged rest which is what causes injuries and is why a lot of WWE wrestlers require things like knee surgery earlier than wrestlers from outside. Considering that house shows don't draw anyway it might genuinely be worth shifting them up to mostly be tags and trios matches like most Puro house shows in Japan in order to spread the load significantly, which allows your top talent to rest up and not need to slowly injure themselves working a hardcore singles world title match that will only be seen by 2,000 is some random show in Alabama or wherever. People will point to New Japan or other Puro main events as being hard hitting and while there are examples of major injuries there (Shibata obviously, Kenta being rung in London this year as well) outside of the big singles tournaments they do tours where you'll at most have one singles match on the tour; lots of six, eight or ten man tags where you go in to do signature spots and take two bumps and gaps between tours to rest up which is significantly kinder to the body and which allows them to work a stiffer, stronger style. What's happened in WWE is that really in the last few years a fusion of that style and US indie style has merged with the old WWE house style to become their new style and so you have people working the equivalent of just below a major NJPW main event three days a week plus whatever they are doing on TV and the body can't handle it - there's a reason why the tours before and after both the G1 and BOSJ are minor tours where outside the Dontaku Junior Title match people not in the title scene will do nothing: because they want to save their bodies for the punishment and then recover afterwards. The danger isn't in individual moves but its in the amount of ring time you work and that's significantly higher in WWE than elsewhere. I also think they need to really cut down on the number of gimmick matches. We've reached the point where people have basically seen everything they ever will in a Ladder or TLC match so in order to get big reactions they need to go higher and higher and bigger and bigger and we must be near the limit where you can't do anymore: especially on the WWE schedule where you may well be working a TV match the next day with 0 time to rest. In an ideal world you'd only do gimmick matches in stories and feuds that naturally build to them and then if two people are killing each other you want them to remember it: the impact of the Moxley/Omega match is an example where they took a match format that in reality was probably safer than a lot of WWE gimmick matches but made it look brutal to create that reaction. Most TLC matches in WWE now are forgotten since they weren't really built to and they can't top what came before so you have people doing these massive stunt shows killing themselves, for... what? This is especially the case when they do the things on House Shows: does anyone buy a ticket to a WWE house show because they announce a CAGE MATCH as the main event; especially with their history of changing lineups last minute. Not only would doing that make the wrestlers safer but also it'd make the thing more interesting when you actually do them: a special treat rather than "oh wait its TLC we have to have two TLC matches". Its telling to me that people generally react more to normal matches and the stuff you do in those now over the gimmick matches as well: which is another reason to ditch them.
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Dec 16, 2019 22:41
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In 2007 roh had a big weekend for final battle. Night 1 was a special ppv taping with Austin Aries vs Nigel McGuinness for the title with babyface Nigel defending the next night in a four way match to headline Final Battle. During the Aries match, Nigel took a bad bump into the guardrail and was concussed. ROH did the logical thing the next night and announced that Nigel had to pull out of his title defense because of concussions to which the crowd absolutely poo poo all over and gave Nigel grief for the next few months. Does ROH use this opportunity to try and educate the fans that hey, this poo poo happens, and the wrestlers safety is important? What they do instead is kind of pivot into it angle wise. For the anniversary show, the advertised main event is Nigel McGuinness, returning after a concussion, facing Bryan Danielson, who himself is still recovering from detached retina surgery. The psychology of the match is Danielson wants to beat Nigel, but not hurt him, so he tries to avoid hitting any moves that would affect Nigel's head. Nigel, eventually getting frustrated, starts going after Danielsons eye, and starts hitting elbows into it, turning heel and winning the match through a ref stoppage, his heel turn being blamed on the crowd's lack of empathy after he sat at home for over a month suffering through his concussion
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Dec 16, 2019 22:57
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The point about WWE needing to cut down on gimmick matches (and possibly the industry as a whole, although if AEW does it, I'm not sure how they can justify keeping Jimmy Havoc around) is 1000% fair, not only does it rob those matches of any meaning, but by forcing the matches to happen because 'oh poo poo it's May/December/February' there's nothing except trying to innovate and top whatever has been done before. SOMEtimes that can lead to cool poo poo that might even be safer than previous stuff, like the New Day/Usos HIAC match, but normally it leads to crazier spots that often don't LOOK as dangerous as they really are. Plus the more you do them at random, the less they work to pop a rating. Just like having the top stars wrestling on Raw USED to be a tactic to pop a rating against Nitro and now is a recipe for failure, doing multiple ladder matches on a random Wednesday show is just gonna explode Mia Yim's face for minimal gain.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:04
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I'd like to think in 2019 that the mentality of "The show must go on!" would have died, but sadly I don't think this not being the case is even particularly unique to wrestling/WWE. The mythologizing of past incidents of wrestlers finishing matches despite terrible injuries hasn't helped. Angle coming back out to that triple threat clearly completely loving out of it, Daniel Bryan destroying the Wyatt Family but having zero memory of it, Austin rolling up Owen to win his match despite having a broken neck etc, all these things still get brought up today by wrestlers, fans and often WWE themselves as signs of how tough and resilient and dedicated the wrestlers are, when they've actually just potentially put themselves and sometimes others at the risk of paralysis or death.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:16
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we need to go back to the good old days of wrestling when backlund could finger manipulation a dude for 7 hours to rapturous applause
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Dec 16, 2019 23:16
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A wrestler literally died in the ring due to WWE negligence and the show continued.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:19
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but for real setting the precedent of all this insane tlc flippy poo poo was awful for the people in the industry. im sure desensitization to violence would have escalated stuff anyway, plus people getting 'smart' to it, but it used to be that if a dude went above the second rope the entire crowd got up on their feet in amazement but now you need to do a triple moonsault off a ladder onto another ladder to get 17 likes on a gif of it on twitter
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Dec 16, 2019 23:22
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Endorph posted:but for real setting the precedent of all this insane tlc flippy poo poo was awful for the people in the industry. im sure desensitization to violence would have escalated stuff anyway, plus people getting 'smart' to it, but it used to be that if a dude went above the second rope the entire crowd got up on their feet in amazement but now you need to do a triple moonsault off a ladder onto another ladder to get 17 likes on a gif of it on twitter Not really, you just have to do a flip landing on your feet and sell it really well. Like, seriously, the last one I recall being SUPER viral was the Ospreay/Ibushi NANI?!? moment from last December.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:24
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Remember when Neville got injured a couple years ago and Chris Jericho had to physically stop the ref from dragging him around by the neck or whatever and he actually decided to do that? Don't be a Charlotte. Be a Jericho.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:29
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Kazuchika Okada gets people to lose their loving minds when he hits a dropkick. It's all about timing and presentation, but the wrestlers themselves need some latitude to be able to learn and develop these skills and build up a relationship with the audience. WWE's micro-management really severely curtails that.
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Dec 16, 2019 23:29
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Thank you for capitalizing the words in the title of the OP
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Dec 16, 2019 23:41
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Cavauro posted:Thank you for capitalizing the words in the title of the OP he forgot the and
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Dec 16, 2019 23:46
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conjunctions and articles aren't capitalized in titles unless they're the first word
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Dec 16, 2019 23:52
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STONE COLD 64 posted:he forgot the and 
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Dec 16, 2019 23:53
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There have iirc only been five gimmick matches in the history of the IWGP Heavyweight Championshop, hence why it feels pretty special when gimmick matches like Okada/Omega IV happen
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Dec 17, 2019 00:13
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Smoking Crow posted:conjunctions and articles aren't capitalized in titles unless they're the first word its still a word
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Dec 17, 2019 00:14
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Not interested
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Dec 17, 2019 00:16
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I am not mistakenly pointing out a mistake. it didn't used to be capitalized.
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Dec 17, 2019 00:17
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Suplex Liberace posted:Kinda hope AEW will change something as its wrestler run but you would have to change that wrestler mindset first. it just came out that the Khans are the worst football owners in terms of union grievances 32 teams and the Khans are responsible for a full 25% of complaints league wide
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Dec 17, 2019 00:18
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the problem with limiting dates is that wrestlers need a TON of ring-time to even be passable at professional wrestling, unless you're a prodigy like Angle, and even then you need a couple years. so if your idea is to develop new talent instead of just harvesting husks of old wrestlers, you need them to work a lot, because otherwise you get a situation like Britt Baker where she's had a pitiful amount of matches in her career and it's extremely unlikely she'll get any better wrestling once every two weeks on Dark and Dynamite i think there's a good middle ground between wrestling only on TV and PPVs, and WWE's extreme schedule. allowing guys to book themselves on indies and running occasional "house shows" /fite.tv specials between PPVs would work pretty well i think
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Dec 17, 2019 00:23
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STONE COLD 64 posted:he forgot the and Can I get a sixer on this fool for trying to step to my grammar J-ru?
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Dec 17, 2019 01:17
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