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AEW needs a taped developmental territory where - and I cannot stress this enough - wrestlers are paid equally to the main roster Moreover, a developmental territory like that should only be for trainees, green folks (like Britt Baker) and folks who need to get their gimmick together (like The Dark Order), not folks who've been wrestling for ten years and completely have their poo poo together
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Dec 17, 2019 01:29
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Venomous posted:I feel like NJPW does it right by promoting few singles matches per year and mainly promoting multiman tag matches in house shows/undercard matches, but do we have any definitive data on that? I'd also point to the touring schedule. New Japan should finish the year having done 176 shows, by my counting they should have had 136 wrestlers appear on them (excluding the shows in America promoted with ROH because I don't want to have a list of people who worked for New Japan in 2019 to include Bully Ray) but 62 of them were on less than 8 shows, either the lucha crew who came over for Fantasticamania, or guys who were only on the New Japan events in Australia, the UK or USA. So if you take the example of Shingo Takagi, who worked the most shows of anyone on the roster by my counting (153 out 176), he managed 23 singles matches on the year & only 4 of those were outside of the Best of the Super Juniors or G1 Climax tournaments, 37 tag team matches & the rest of his matches coming in multiman tags. For comparison, Ricochet worked 151 matches for WWE this year, 68 were singles matches, another 20 were triple threats, fatal fours, etc, multiman singles matches, 42 tag team matches & the rest various multiman tags. Or Seth Rollins, 105 singles matches out of 143 matches across the year. I'd like to see New Japan give guys more down time, more tours off for example, but yeah, there's no way their schedule isn't less rough on the body than the WWE schedule. Especially when you consider travel into the mix, you're not finishing a show then having to jump into a car & drive to the next town, you just get on the bus and can switch off completely until it's time to get off. Seems much more tolerable to me.
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Dec 17, 2019 02:44
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the new japan tour bus is such a no brainer qol thing for the wrestlers.
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Dec 17, 2019 02:52
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I think a big part of the issues with wrestlers destroying their bodies is not due to big moves/matches. Although obviously getting thrown off a cage isn't nice, good, or fun. I think it is the daily grind of a WWE wrestler, or an indie worker doing the rounds. Insomuch as throwing yourself at the ground once won't hurt you if you know how to do it properly. But doing that same action of throwing yourself against the ground 4 times a week, 50 weeks a year has a cumulative effect. Much like, (and I may be very very wrong about this), I think there were studies proving that there were less concussions in bare knuckle boxing rings than in modern rings. Because in modern rings with gloves, people get punched with less force, but more often. Causing more brain injury/bruising than being punched less, but with more force.
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Dec 17, 2019 03:07
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wwe at incredibly little, little cost, could afford to make deals with local hotels, charter a bus from the airport to the hotels to the arenas then from city to city.
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Dec 17, 2019 03:09
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Low Desert Punk posted:the problem with limiting dates is that wrestlers need a TON of ring-time to even be passable at professional wrestling, unless you're a prodigy like Angle, and even then you need a couple years. so if your idea is to develop new talent instead of just harvesting husks of old wrestlers, you need them to work a lot, because otherwise you get a situation like Britt Baker where she's had a pitiful amount of matches in her career and it's extremely unlikely she'll get any better wrestling once every two weeks on Dark and Dynamite The solution is to change how people are trained: in Japan there are plenty of examples of people who've debuted pretty quickly after starting and immediately looking great - admittedly in most cases they aren't pushed immediately and there's lots of time spent working opening matches but there are examples of super rookie pushes. Utami Hayashishita started training in Stardom February 2018, past her pro test (the test that most Joshi companies have their trainees do to make sure they are ready to debut; tests physical fitness, ability to do basic bumps, rolls and other fundamental things and an amateur wrestling/grapping portion to test those skills) in July 2018, debuted in August and got to the final of Stardom's G1 equivalent the following month and while she's a very unique example of someone who debuted and just got it there are others who look great within months of their debuts in Japan. I don't think that its because Japanese people are naturally more skilled so its either that Japanese promotions are better at identifying and signing talent (but a lot of those great wrestlers are from small companies that are often getting people right out of high school and can't afford top level natural athletes), have better training methods and approaches or that they work more dates, which in some companies isn't true since there are weekend-only companies around. You'll also see than in a lot of the young lion tags on New Japan shows they'll either have a team of young lions or have teams of rookies+vets with the rookies working most of the match: that's because they want the rookie in there to learn, develop and improve while also meaning that the veterans on that time can do less and take less bumps which gets you the best of both worlds. That's quite common when you look through Japanese cards. Jerusalem posted:Kazuchika Okada gets people to lose their loving minds when he hits a dropkick. It's all about timing and presentation, but the wrestlers themselves need some latitude to be able to learn and develop these skills and build up a relationship with the audience. WWE's micro-management really severely curtails that. This is the key thing though: the reason why WWE crowds react to only entrances, catchphrases, big moves and finishers is that the WWE product has conditioned them that only those things matter. Meanwhile you look at Japan and you'll see crowds reacting big to a rookie going for a cradle to get a win on a big name only for it to be a near fall and the Okada dropkick spot or other very simple things because those crowds have a much deeper level of personal investment in those wrestlers. I'll give a live take from going to EVE the last few years: there's a wrestler in EVE called Jetta who started as a comedy heel that was over the top and egotistical but she naturally turned face and became this underdog figure that everyone wanted to win. In 2017 she entered their big annual round-robin tournament called the SHE-1 and gets drawn in a death block that has Meiko Satomura, Emi Sakura and Viper in it and predictably loses every match; the matches against Meiko and Emi were basically squashes but she fights on valiently against Viper getting close to the time limit before losing; and leaving the tournament with 0 points. In the 2018 SHE-1 she qualifies again and gets drawn in a block with Command Bolshoi, Toni Storm and Kasey: the first two matches are a similar story to last year but in that final match against Kasey, an opponent much closer to her level, she valiantly fights hard, holds on and manages to get a time limit draw to get a point in the tournament and the crowd roars, like she's won the World Title. In 2019 she qualifies again and this time is in another very tough block: against Jazz, Mei Suruga and EVE Champion Rhia O'Reilly, who's also top heel in the company and says that while she doesn't think she'll win the tournament her goal is simple; to improve on last year, to get a win. She falls to Jazz and Mei while Rhia manages to defeat both and because of that she's automatically through to the final no matter what happens. They face in the third night; and while I think everyone has a good idea what they'll do by the end everyone has forgotten that. The last five minutes of the match is basically Rhia putting Jetta in various submission holds with Jetta holding on, fighting her way to the ropes several times but being dragged back several other times. The crowd is red-hot this whole match: and at this point everyone is screaming for her to hold on, continually checking the time remaining on the big screen to see just how long there is left. And then with ten seconds to go; Jetta manages to reverse the crossface that she was in into a cradle and manages to pin the champion; and get her big win. The roof was almost blown off the Resistance Gallery: everyone was happy and cheering; some people were even crying. And they managed to get that reaction not with a load of big moves or with a load of weapon spots: it was a simple, long-term story that everyone was into with a logical finish that everyone expected, but then forgot that they expected mid-match so that when it happened everyone was ecstatic. There's one core rule with pro wrestling: if you can get people emotionally invested in your stories then it makes your life a lot easier and it helps to cover any flaws you might have since people want to like things and they'll overlook minor mistakes. And that's when you get little special moments in wrestling: like for example that moment in this years New Japan Cup where briefly, for just a few seconds, everyone in the crowd thought that Shota Umino genuinely had a chance to defeat Hiroshi Tanahashi and move on: people are only going to think that if you have them emotionally invested in him and in Tanahashi. And frankly if you can get people to care about your matches then you can do what Naito does: in the big matches he works he goes all out and puts his body on the line but in the random tags in between? He does gently caress all; usually wrestles with his shirt on, comes in to take maybe a couple of bumps at most and do some signature spots and maybe hit a destino to win the match if he's winning the fall. And yet the people in that building don't care because its Tetsuya Naito: they love him anyway and even doing barely that in an eight man tag is enough to make them go home happy. There's no one in WWE who could get away with that and that's the problem: in order to get people to react and to care they have to do a lot more and combined with the death schedule it kills their bodies quicker.
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Dec 17, 2019 03:27
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dude you’re cool and bring a lot of cool info to the table but holy god please condense
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Dec 17, 2019 03:28
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IceAgeComing posted:The solution is to change how people are trained: in Japan there are plenty of examples of people who've debuted pretty quickly after starting and immediately looking great - admittedly in most cases they aren't pushed immediately and there's lots of time spent working opening matches but there are examples of super rookie pushes. Utami Hayashishita started training in Stardom February 2018, past her pro test (the test that most Joshi companies have their trainees do to make sure they are ready to debut; tests physical fitness, ability to do basic bumps, rolls and other fundamental things and an amateur wrestling/grapping portion to test those skills) in July 2018, debuted in August and got to the final of Stardom's G1 equivalent the following month and while she's a very unique example of someone who debuted and just got it there are others who look great within months of their debuts in Japan. I don't think that its because Japanese people are naturally more skilled so its either that Japanese promotions are better at identifying and signing talent (but a lot of those great wrestlers are from small companies that are often getting people right out of high school and can't afford top level natural athletes), have better training methods and approaches or that they work more dates, which in some companies isn't true since there are weekend-only companies around. this does a real good job in explaining how wwe has managed to just grind to dust any semblance of their remaining fanbase and why the current fans are not going to be useful or enable any type of sustainence or growth
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Dec 17, 2019 03:48
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WatermelonGun posted:dude you’re cool and bring a lot of cool info to the table but holy god please condense It's a drat good read and we're not in danger of running out of page space so  away, IceAgeComing!
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Dec 17, 2019 04:36
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Jerusalem posted:It's a drat good read and we're not in danger of running out of page space so i did not mean to be rude the dude has spent the last two days freely giving away poo poo they should charge for, and is honestly a forums treasure to be caressed and held. i just think they should trim it up or insert some paragraph breaks because there’s like five promotions in that post and my new fav poster IceAgeComing deserves to have their posts read, digested, and discussed among the community. IceAgeComing, i love you.
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Dec 17, 2019 05:27
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Suplex Liberace posted:the new japan tour bus is such a no brainer qol thing for the wrestlers. It would never work with WWE... Too many dates. Karl Anderson and Gallows would drive the wrestlers mad. There would be at least on murder on the bus. They almost pushed Aj over the edge in japan.
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Dec 17, 2019 07:08
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In the vein of how people are being trained as wrestlers, how did the current WWE training style come about? Did that occur with FCW or OVW? I wanted to argue that the WWE should allow wrestlers to come into the company with the training that they've already acquired but NJPW has a dojo and they are doing well so that argument of having wrestlers learn a specific style of wrestling being bad doesn't work. In addition, they've had some really good coaches come through the PC like Quack, Storm and HBK to help their trainees so the argument of being improperly trained doesn't work. So does that leave us with the WWE style of wrestling(and the crazy road schedule of the WWE)? Does anyone have any clout to try to bring about change in how wrestling is done in the WWE?
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Dec 17, 2019 07:32
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Low Desert Punk posted:i think there's a good middle ground between wrestling only on TV and PPVs, and WWE's extreme schedule. allowing guys to book themselves on indies and running occasional "house shows" /fite.tv specials between PPVs would work pretty well i think Which is pretty much what AEW are doing, isn't it? I know Trent and Chuck still work select indie dates
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Dec 17, 2019 09:15
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BrigadierSensible posted:I think a big part of the issues with wrestlers destroying their bodies is not due to big moves/matches. Although obviously getting thrown off a cage isn't nice, good, or fun. You have it backwards: gloves let people hit harder without risking breaking their fingerbones and for the same reason incentivize head shots, 'cause you no longer have to worry about your hands.
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Dec 17, 2019 10:48
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LupusAter posted:You have it backwards: gloves let people hit harder without risking breaking their fingerbones and for the same reason incentivize head shots, 'cause you no longer have to worry about your hands. This and the primary purposes of gloves was to reduce instances of cuts so that bouts wouldn't be stopped for excessive bleeding or blood obscuring vision and to make the sport more "presentable" to a general audience.
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Dec 18, 2019 01:40
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