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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:If there is a Messiah film incoming, how thats gonna work with Chani hating Paul's guts. And no creepy baby Alia yet. I think it's either a hiccup in the plot before business as usual, or Dennis is gonna shoot for the chaos option and make a third movie entirely of his own creation.
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Mar 25, 2024 03:47
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Upthread someone wrote an outline for Messiah that seemed to hone in on the themes Dennis has focused on. Mostly, they hypothesized that Chani will lead the fremen faction that opposes Paul and that they will be the ones that use the stone burner.
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Mar 25, 2024 04:01
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Oh yeah, does it ever get explained in the later books why Paul is the ubermensch one gen ahead of schedule? Or is the galactic eugenics program not completely infallible after all
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Mar 25, 2024 04:31
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Oh yeah, does it ever get explained in the later books why Paul is the ubermensch one gen ahead of schedule? Or is the galactic eugenics program not completely infallible after all Letos rizz was so strong that Jessica gave him a son against Bene Gesserit orders. A big theme in the books is that *no one*, not even Paul or his descendants, are infallible. Nor are their plans.
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Mar 25, 2024 04:44
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Oh yeah, does it ever get explained in the later books why Paul is the ubermensch one gen ahead of schedule? Or is the galactic eugenics program not completely infallible after all I think the idea was that it would be the mix of the Atreides and Harkonnen lines that would produce him, but Jessica being the Baron's daughter threw off their calculations.
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Mar 25, 2024 04:53
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It's less that the hypothetical Atreides/Harkonnen match's kid would definitely be The One and more that they'd be way more likely to be The One than an earlier generation is. There have been other men considered possible supermen along the way but they failed at various points in the testing. If Jessica had been born a boy then she would have been a potential one too, just one even less likely than Paul to succeed that toss of the dice.
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Mar 25, 2024 04:58
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Bugblatter posted:Upthread someone wrote an outline for Messiah that seemed to hone in on the themes Dennis has focused on. Mostly, they hypothesized that Chani will lead the fremen faction that opposes Paul and that they will be the ones that use the stone burner. If Chani doesn't make up with Paul, then does Paul just go celibate the entire time and still not have kids because reasons? Kvantum posted:I think the idea was that it would be the mix of the Atreides and Harkonnen lines that would produce him, but Jessica being the Baron's daughter threw off their calculations. disposablewords posted:It's less that the hypothetical Atreides/Harkonnen match's kid would definitely be The One and more that they'd be way more likely to be The One than an earlier generation is. There have been other men considered possible supermen along the way but they failed at various points in the testing. If Jessica had been born a boy then she would have been a potential one too, just one even less likely than Paul to succeed that toss of the dice. Ok, so its more of a probability thing than any actual assurance? That makes sense In the movies, it was implied the Atreides got whacked because of some secret plot the BG cooked up out of spite or something. In the books, I think it was just because Emps was paranoid folks liked Leto more than him? I'm not sure which version I like more, probably the emperor a paranoid fool?
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Mar 25, 2024 06:06
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Scags McDouglas posted:Austin Butler managed a lot of expressive acting with just his eyes on the second half. Yeah, he did a fantastic job. He's dangerously close to being an audience stand-in in the throne room scenes, as he is an obvious outsider who actually reacts to stuff. And the sincerity of "may THY knife chip and shatter" was a highlight. Anyway, having just got back from a second viewing, here's some Minor Stuff I Noticed This Time: In the first scene on Arrakis where Paul et al are hiding from the patrol, Jessica signals "enemy" and- quite coincidentally I'm sure!- points at Chani. The rectangle of projected light in the grand Hallway of Nukes is the same proportions as the cinema screen and it's kind of disorienting. Come to think of it, nukes are like the one point of commonality between Duneworld and reality, and they go and slap a floating mis-en-scene border over the whole thing. When Chani finds comatose Paul and shouts at everyone, they all do the clasp-hands-look-down maneuver we've only seen from Harkonnen peons til now. Various Harkonnens spend the whole movie murdering people while everyone looks on without intervening. And how does the Baron die...? The music when Paul arrives in the south is unreeeeeaaaal.
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Mar 25, 2024 06:29
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:If Chani doesn't make up with Paul, then does Paul just go celibate the entire time and still not have kids because reasons? In the movie, it’s because the BG use the emperors paranoia to exterminate house atriedes because they’ve become an uncontrollable variable in their plans.
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Mar 25, 2024 06:34
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Bugblatter posted:Upthread someone wrote an outline for Messiah that seemed to hone in on the themes Dennis has focused on. Mostly, they hypothesized that Chani will lead the fremen faction that opposes Paul and that they will be the ones that use the stone burner. This kinda jives with the visions of Chani with the burned face as well
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Mar 25, 2024 09:17
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Tree Bucket posted:Yeah, he did a fantastic job. He's dangerously close to being an audience stand-in in the throne room scenes, as he is an obvious outsider who actually reacts to stuff. And the sincerity of "may THY knife chip and shatter" was a highlight. Also, there's a real visual parallel between Paul inserting his hand to access the family atomics and the gom jabbar test. Both are thresholds he passes through and emerges more powerful from.
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Mar 25, 2024 13:30
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Rewatched Dune 2 in IMAX and it was so worth it. This time I paid special attention to a bunch of the (mostly plot) complaints brought up here in the thread but also from other people. Just a few things I noticed: - "it's jarring that in one scene Paul refuses to go South but then he does go South": his mom/sister tell him to do it so he can unlock perfect precognition, he refuses. Stilgar says kill me and go in my stead so you can speak in the council, Paul refuses (both killing and going obv). Gurney says go and take over the millions of Fremen and have your revenge, Paul refuses. Then Sietch Tabr gets attacked, Paul didn't see it coming, and obviously is wracked with guilt: if he'd gone with his mom, he could have drunk the water earlier, and foreseen it. So he invokes a vision of Jamis, who tells him "hey knowing about your enemies in advance is pretty useful". Then Chani comes and says "you know I'd be fine with you going, just try to remain yourself" and that, finally, makes him decide that it might be worth it after all. I think if it wasn't for that last thing, it might have been a bit abrupt, but literally every advisor he ever had (or might have had!) tells him to go, it makes sense that he'd crack under that pressure - therefore, also, it makes sense why he goes to drink the water immediately instead of prioritizing the council - it was brought up where the Fremen get all their supplies including e.g. Chani's ornithopter, my wife also brought that up: but we see that? They loot ammo, grenades, even armor off the Harkonnen after the first scene. They must have been doing that for decades. We also know from the first movie that Fremen are not an unusual sight in Arrakeen, it's easy to imagine that they'd do heavy industrial espionage. Also, Kynes was an inside source for quite a while. They use bazookas, lasers, they are obviously familiar with the highest level technology - it's very easy to conclude that they'd train their warriors in using captured vehicles as well, and therefore they can just jump into the spaceships in the end too - people were questioning why Rabban never used artillery on the Fremen before Feyd took over. But I noticed that the scene in which Feyd is designated new ruler of Dune takes place on Giedi Prime, not Arrakis - I mentally shortcutted to it being an arrival ceremony like in the first movie, but it's still grayscale. You see a huge amount of Harkonnen troops muster there, and the artilleries as well. Feyd brought them an a huge amount of personnel with him to Dune. I agree that it would have been a stretch to say that Rabban is just too stupid to use artillery that's just lying around, but I can buy him being too stupid/too arrogant/too embarrassed to phone home and go "hey can you bring some heavy equipment, we're having a rat problem here" - "why didn't Paul just tell Chani hey, I'm going to need to marry Irulan for political reasons but it's cool": Paul has a line after drinking the water where he says re: Chani "she'll come around". He has already seen (or thinks he has!) that Chani will be upset but change her mind, so why bother filling her in? Also, he's currently following his narrow path that's the only one he's seen that leads him to defeating his enemies, staying alive etc.: easy to assume that getting Chani upset is part of that path and telling her would change it. That's a bit of a weak justification but it's how the book does it all the time, so... I think that's most of the stuff I noticed as actually having a pretty good in-movie explanation without needing to go "but in the books". Other things: - the houses immediately deciding to not acknowledge Paul, I got nothing but I assume that will be expanded on in the next film - even on rewatch both me and my wife found the final duel a bit confusing to follow, especially where each knife was at which point. I did think "wait, where did the third knife come from?" the first time before piecing together what I think is the correct sequence involving only two, then my wife asked the exact same question and I told her how I think it went, but that scene is really hurt imo by not seeing the knives actually go into people and also by the twist of having Paul stab Feyd offscreen - "why does the Emperor go personally, exposing himself to danger" has been abundantly discussed in the thread and doesn't have a clear "oh that's why" in the movie, though imo it makes perfect sense so I won't adress it here Thus concludes my anti-cinema-sins post
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Mar 25, 2024 13:44
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e: ^^^^ a good postCognac McCarthy posted:Also, there's a real visual parallel between Paul inserting his hand to access the family atomics and the gom jabbar test. Both are thresholds he passes through and emerges more powerful from. Yeah I really liked this, and also that the cave where Jessica drinks the blue goo has a Gom Jabbar shaped entrance as well
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Mar 25, 2024 13:50
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Cognac McCarthy posted:Also, there's a real visual parallel between Paul inserting his hand to access the family atomics and the gom jabbar test. Both are thresholds he passes through and emerges more powerful from. I didn't realise that, but it's real fitting. Kinda funny that the family atomics iirc aren't given much focus in the book, but the Fallout-esque hidden bunker and the gene lock really feel like they fit perfectly into Dune aesthetically and thematically. Of course as long as there's a heir to an Imperial House out there, an occupier can never feel truly safe on the planet they hold.
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Mar 25, 2024 14:05
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Failed Imagineer posted:e: ^^^^ a good post 2) oh yeah something else I noticed: after Lady Fenring does her thing with Feyd, it cuts to a scene in a garden where she, Irulan and the Reverend Mother talk under some sort of gazebo. You only see that from the outside for a brief moment, but I'm pretty sure its roof tiles have the same color and texture as the pain box
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Mar 25, 2024 14:17
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Let's face it, Feyd probably found the Gom Jabbar to be the hottest foreplay he's had in his life
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Mar 25, 2024 14:26
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Let's face it, Feyd probably found the Gom Jabbar to be the hottest foreplay he's had in his life I mean so did I
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Mar 25, 2024 14:40
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Let's face it, Feyd probably found the Gom Jabbar to be the hottest foreplay he's had in his life Fenring keeps cranking the dial. Mooore! I want MOOOOORE!!
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Mar 25, 2024 14:42
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Let's face it, Feyd probably found the Gom Jabbar to be the hottest foreplay he's had in his life Jokes on you, im into this poo poo
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Mar 25, 2024 14:52
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Simply Simon posted:- people were questioning why Rabban never used artillery on the Fremen before Feyd took over. But I noticed that the scene in which Feyd is designated new ruler of Dune takes place on Giedi Prime, not Arrakis - I mentally shortcutted to it being an arrival ceremony like in the first movie, but it's still grayscale. You see a huge amount of Harkonnen troops muster there, and the artilleries as well. Feyd brought them an a huge amount of personnel with him to Dune. I agree that it would have been a stretch to say that Rabban is just too stupid to use artillery that's just lying around, but I can buy him being too stupid/too arrogant/too embarrassed to phone home and go "hey can you bring some heavy equipment, we're having a rat problem here" This stands out because it's a bit of a change from the book, in the book They use solid artillery/etc. and it gives them a bit of an edge over the Atreides during the assault, and Rabban is the "bring in heavy artillery" guy, even blowing up a worm with some, and bringing in heavy artillery was actually something the Baron was against and was Rabban's idea. And IN ADDITION to that, Rabban's intentionally set up to fail by the Baron, he tells Rabban to squeeze and push everyone as hard as possible with his plan being to then install Feyd, while will be pretty harsh, but will be "sold" as this heroic honorable noble savior in comparison to "The Beast" Rabban.. But for the purposes of the movie and fleshing out Feyd more as someone who could be an actual threat to Paul overall I think it was a good change and also fits with the much more compressed timeline the movies have compare to the book where years go by. Simply Simon posted:- the houses immediately deciding to not acknowledge Paul, I got nothing but I assume that will be expanded on in the next film Also from the compressed timeline, I have a feeling they ended it on this note because if the third movie happens it will pick up again exactly where this left off. Feyd in general, I was really happy with what they did with the character and the performance was great. Regarding the knife fight, I don't know, I'm not saying they had to have a The Raid 2 climax caliber knife fight (though that would have been amazing of course and fitting) but I think both it and especially the Jamis knife fight in part 1 could have been a little better. Was it just a matter of like if the movie was rated R they could hold the shots longer or something? It seemed like they did have some cool stuff in mind in both. We see on screen throat slittings and stuff though so I don't know.
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Mar 25, 2024 14:52
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I also saw the movie twice and I have no idea what happened with the knives at the end. The emperor's is clearly thicker and Paul's Crysknife is slender but iirc it looks like a knife goes into his left side but he pulls it out of his right side at the end. The knife Paul pulls out of Feyd is definitely a Crysknife though. Paul's vision in the first movie of him being stabbed coming true in the second is a pretty nice moment though. Also, about not telling Chani about marrying Irulan beforehand. I think you said it yourself, Paul is following an extremely narrow path through space and time. Her being at the duel probably has some significance. The book and both movies opted to keep a moment where Feyd taunts/threatens Chani which is interesting.
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Mar 25, 2024 15:00
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Neo Rasa posted:Regarding the knife fight, I don't know, I'm not saying they had to have a The Raid 2 climax caliber knife fight (though that would have been amazing of course and fitting) but I think both it and especially the Jamis knife fight in part 1 could have been a little better. Was it just a matter of like if the movie was rated R they could hold the shots longer or something? It seemed like they did have some cool stuff in mind in both. We see on screen throat slittings and stuff though so I don't know. What I think happens in the fight: - after the initial bout where they kick and headbutt a bunch, neither fighter is actually cut - Paul has a bloodied brow and Feyd has a nosebleed and/or a busted lip but the knives have not hit - then Feyd calls Chani a pet - Paul gets mad at that and overextends, and gets the knife in his side. And this is very hard to actually see but in order for the rest to make sense it must be his own knife, that Feyd catches and twists around - Feyd then gets close and tries to deliver the killing blow to Paul with his/the emperor's blade, but Paul catches that with his glove - Paul draws Feyd close, distracts him with the fight over the knife at eye level, pulls the knife out of his side and stabs Feyd in a more lethal place - Feyd actually finishes his stabbing motion at the same time (so it looks like Paul loses) but Paul shifts the knife far enough to the side/Feyd slips because of his shock when Paul's knife hits him that Paul only gets the emperor's blade in his shoulder - Feyd dies, Paul pulls his knife from him, pulls the emperor's blade from his shoulder and throws it to the ground The most realistic part: as they say, in a real knife fight, one fighter dies in the arena and one on the way to the hospital - Paul definitely looks like he could do the latter, we know he won't but he's still really banged up.
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Mar 25, 2024 15:27
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Simply Simon posted:stuff A more astute poster who's name escapes me pointed out that Paul won the fight in a slightly more evolved way that he lost while training with Gurney in the first movie. He capitalized on his competitor's focus on offense that left an opening on defense. In my head cannon this is acceptable since Gurney owns bones and anyone he trains is not to be hosed with.
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Mar 25, 2024 16:15
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Simply Simon posted:- the houses immediately deciding to not acknowledge Paul, I got nothing but I assume that will be expanded on in the next film My personal supposition is that the Houses just saw the Emperor dethroned by someone claiming to be Paul Atreides... and even if he actually is, he's not Leto who everyone liked but instead Leto's brat. And even if this indicates that "Paul" has a force that can defeat the Sardaukar, well, surely they can't defeat everyone else together! This was the Emperor's war to lose, not some desert rat's to win, so clearly this means the Sardaukar were a paper tiger all along. And if the throne's up for grabs by whichever person proves strongest, all the better! Band together against this upstart and then have it out among themselves later.
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Mar 25, 2024 16:40
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There would have to be some kind of succession war involving the houses. Some upstart Duke's son taking control of spice production and declaring himself emperor would never just be accepted with no war. All Paul did was trick the emperor to come to Arrakis, which I still think was poorly explained and wouldn't have happened, even if it happens that way in the book as well. I would also think that other houses would use their own nuclear stockpiles and would rather blow the whole society to nothing than listen to the "new emperor." On a side note, the house atomics is such a clear indication that Dune was written during the cold war. They have lasers, shields and spaceships but nuclear weapons are still the ultimate power.
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Mar 25, 2024 16:55
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Let's face it, Feyd probably found the Gom Jabbar to be the hottest foreplay he's had in his life Feyd instantly nuts during the Gom Jabbar before Fenring can spermjack him
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Mar 25, 2024 17:13
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disposablewords posted:My personal supposition is that the Houses just saw the Emperor dethroned by someone claiming to be Paul Atreides... and even if he actually is, he's not Leto who everyone liked but instead Leto's brat. And even if this indicates that "Paul" has a force that can defeat the Sardaukar, well, surely they can't defeat everyone else together! This was the Emperor's war to lose, not some desert rat's to win, so clearly this means the Sardaukar were a paper tiger all along. And if the throne's up for grabs by whichever person proves strongest, all the better! Band together against this upstart and then have it out among themselves later. I can definitely see the Great Houses taking this mindset, the Sardaukar and Harkonnen just got completely totally owned? Instead of thinking the it's because Paul/The Fremen are god-tier warriors they're thinking the Sarkaukar are nothing. You'll have some major houses wanting to move in now, and we learn ther eare other Atreides folks stull alive out there too. Basically Villeneuve somehow perfectly walked into making a setup for an adaptation of the Emperor: Battle for Dune video game lol (would unironically rule if they got Michael Dorn back though). Simply Simon posted:I do think it's a rating thing - many shots in the whole movie where the camera cuts just a bit too early to really feel the impact, or they obviously just pretend to cut somebody, everything is very bloodless - but also I feel like Villeneuve is just not interested in showing cool knife fight choreography. I do think it's a bit more realistic to just have swish swish dodge ooooh somebody connected, welp that's it than a five-minute long acrobatic twirlfest with lots of blade clashes and one-liners, you're just not used to the former from big action cinema (and it's not like this isn't and action movie too). Intent notwithstanding, it could be better imo! But it's not the focus so ultimately whatever. Oh I think the LENGTH of both knife fights was fine. Just to me it should be more dense with clear details about what they're doing. Like you say though Villeneuve just doesn't seem interested in it from how clearly bloodless a lot of the action feels. We shouldn't be having multiple posts about how we think it might have played out. I do think the reason it's so unclear also though, I think they switched things up a bit because of the line about Feyd having an honorable side to him on some level in the movie - In the book they have the whole thing with extra hidden poison pricks/etc. during the fight besides them having knives which makes me wonder if they were originally going to shoot with that in mind. Neo Rasa fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Mar 25, 2024 |
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Mar 25, 2024 17:45
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As for why marry Irulan at all if he's gonna have to fight all the great houses anyway, I figure it's supposed to make it easier to get people to surrender once he does in fact start winning wars thanks to the fremen.
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Mar 25, 2024 18:58
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reignonyourparade posted:As for why marry Irulan at all if he's gonna have to fight all the great houses anyway, I figure it's supposed to make it easier to get people to surrender once he does in fact start winning wars thanks to the fremen. Yeah I've never thought about it but it seems recursive to follow the rules necessary to obtain a position of power you've just stolen. First decree, nobody gives a poo poo about whether I marry anyone.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:16
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I'm guessing Denis changed the ending because he spent two movies worth of prophetic visions hyping up the big jihad so he better deliver!
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Mar 25, 2024 19:36
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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah I've never thought about it but it seems recursive to follow the rules necessary to obtain a position of power you've just stolen. First decree, nobody gives a poo poo about whether I marry anyone. That's just because you live in a society where those forms are a thing of the past. In periods where Feudalism was alive and well these forms were always observed, even in cases of military conquest. William the Conqueror had a legal basis for his claim on England and even the likes of Timur used his supposed maternal descent from Gengis Khan as a basis for his conquests. Paul is, in the end, an aristocrat and having grown up in a society where political allegiance is based upon familial relations and marriage pacts means he will reach for that as a means of legitimizing his rule. His technical legal claim to the throne will also make it an easier sell for the other Great Houses to surrender to him than if he was just purely a usurper.
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Mar 25, 2024 19:41
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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah I've never thought about it but it seems recursive to follow the rules necessary to obtain a position of power you've just stolen. First decree, nobody gives a poo poo about whether I marry anyone. Paul is concerned with building an army of fanatics who worship him, and not all of those people are Fremen. He still has to perform certain rites to unlock the fanaticism in his imperial subjects
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Mar 25, 2024 20:25
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Alright! Fine! I'm an idiot!
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Mar 25, 2024 20:34
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when putting together a one-on-one fight scene for a film, I think there's a certain level you have to reach, but once you reach it you get marginal returns on the quality of the scene by itself and it becomes more important to construct a good movie around it all of that is to preface my opinion that I found the knife fights in dune one and two more engaging than those in john wick. john wicks were miles better in choreography and possibly superior in presentation, but I care about the character of paul atreides and I care about the character of feyd-rautha harkonnen and I don't care about the character of john wick. if anyone wishes to unleash a jihad on me, I completely understand.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:01
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Scags McDouglas posted:Yeah I've never thought about it but it seems recursive to follow the rules necessary to obtain a position of power you've just stolen. First decree, nobody gives a poo poo about whether I marry anyone. It's not so much that he NEEDS to marry Irulan, but that there are very real costs to not doing so, even if he is capable of paying those costs.
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Mar 25, 2024 21:20
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kalel posted:when putting together a one-on-one fight scene for a film, I think there's a certain level you have to reach, but once you reach it you get marginal returns on the quality of the scene by itself and it becomes more important to construct a good movie around it you're absolutely correct
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Mar 25, 2024 22:11
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Simply Simon posted:- it was brought up where the Fremen get all their supplies including e.g. Chani's ornithopter, my wife also brought that up: but we see that? They loot ammo, grenades, even armor off the Harkonnen after the first scene. They must have been doing that for decades. We also know from the first movie that Fremen are not an unusual sight in Arrakeen, it's easy to imagine that they'd do heavy industrial espionage. Also, Kynes was an inside source for quite a while. They use bazookas, lasers, they are obviously familiar with the highest level technology - it's very easy to conclude that they'd train their warriors in using captured vehicles as well, and therefore they can just jump into the spaceships in the end too It's one thing to train some dudes/gals with captured bazookas, and even teach the chosen few to fly a copter, but how do you train a galaxy-conquering force in some caves which the rulers of the planet didn't even notice? Again, I like the movie, I just felt that the ending was rushed and silly. Yes, let's load a bunch of desert people with daggers into spaceships so that they can knife their way through the galaxy! All the while staying well hydrated in their desert suits in deep space. 
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Mar 25, 2024 22:46
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the knife fight was great because it felt like a real knife fight. no one escapes from serious injuries in a knife fight and there's no fancy tricks, just brutal stabbing. even caught some awesome grip switches mid fight from feyd which is a rare addition in the movies.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:50
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Doctor Malaver posted:It's one thing to train some dudes/gals with captured bazookas, and even teach the chosen few to fly a copter, but how do you train a galaxy-conquering force in some caves which the rulers of the planet didn't even notice? Again, I like the movie, I just felt that the ending was rushed and silly. Yes, let's load a bunch of desert people with daggers into spaceships so that they can knife their way through the galaxy! All the while staying well hydrated in their desert suits in deep space. I just feel like, if I'm Stilgar, I might at least want to pack a bag before embarking on a galaxy-wide jihad. Those other planets may not have the (sand-based) shampoo I'm used to! Maybe pick up a copy of Rick Steves's Giedi Prime...
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Mar 25, 2024 22:51
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Doctor Malaver posted:It's one thing to train some dudes/gals with captured bazookas, and even teach the chosen few to fly a copter, but how do you train a galaxy-conquering force in some caves which the rulers of the planet didn't even notice? Again, I like the movie, I just felt that the ending was rushed and silly. Yes, let's load a bunch of desert people with daggers into spaceships so that they can knife their way through the galaxy! All the while staying well hydrated in their desert suits in deep space. We did have Dune Part 1 explain about the Guild and space travel being expensive and spice being needed for space travel. But the monopoly of space travel by the Guild on the basis of Spice should have been repeated or driven home a bit more. And agreed with everyone that the knife fight was really awesome. I like that the trick by Paul to win is so hidden/sudden. If you know what to look for, you can see it. And yes, it calls back to the Paul vs Gurney training fight from Part 1.
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Mar 25, 2024 22:58
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