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I watch a pretty heavy amount of action movies so was really disappointed in the hand to hand combat in the first Dune and thought this was a step up in quality, partially helped by the lack of shields (since they had no idea what to do with them). I do think Villenevue's greatest failure in these movies is that he can't tell a story with action choreography, and the larger scale fights are a huge disappointment and reduce the Fremen to only being able to win via ambushes/surprise tactics, outside of a very few glamour fight scenes like Chani at the end. And that's in opposition to Duncan/Gurney hyping them up in dialogue. I actually thought the finale was the best fight in either movie, just because I could fill in the blanks on what was happening even though it wasn't visually clear. That being said, Villenevue's visuals are across the board outstanding, especially his takes on anything novel/unique to the setting. So it's a trade I'd take every day of the week since I can go see knife fighting in a lot of other movies but zero sandworm riding, unique brutalist spaceships, or excellent costume design.
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Mar 25, 2024 23:27
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Answered before, but was the official coverup for the purge of Atreides? Read the book when I still had hope in my eyes, and the first movie back on release.
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Mar 25, 2024 23:30
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Answered before, but was the official coverup for the purge of Atreides? Read the book when I still had hope in my eyes, and the first movie back on release.
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Mar 25, 2024 23:33
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everyone knows the Harkonnen did it, what would cause an uproar is the revelation of the Emperor's own troops participating.
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Mar 26, 2024 00:20
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Is there a public display of censuring on the empires part, or is it supposed to be an open secret to everybody?
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Mar 26, 2024 00:44
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Inspector Gesicht posted:Is there a public display of censuring on the empires part, or is it supposed to be an open secret to everybody? In the book, Leto was pretty open about challenging them. As in, if Harkonnens said he started it, the landsraad would go, yeah, he did.
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Mar 26, 2024 00:58
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trevorreznik posted:I watch a pretty heavy amount of action movies so was really disappointed in the hand to hand combat in the first Dune and thought this was a step up in quality, partially helped by the lack of shields (since they had no idea what to do with them). I do think Villenevue's greatest failure in these movies is that he can't tell a story with action choreography, and the larger scale fights are a huge disappointment and reduce the Fremen to only being able to win via ambushes/surprise tactics, outside of a very few glamour fight scenes like Chani at the end. And that's in opposition to Duncan/Gurney hyping them up in dialogue. I think you want a style of action that wouldn't really be congruent with these films. Villeneuve has done more brutal and clearly choreographed fights before, the final fight between K and Love in 2049 being extremely memorable. It just wouldn't have fit. And also he needs to keep that PG-13 rating.
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Mar 26, 2024 00:59
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Other noble houses are probably angry, but technically the Harkonnens followed the proper forms as far as anyone else knows and they can't wholly object. The Atreides had their part in pursuing vendetta, so legally it was "earned" because they clearly weren't ready to stand up to it. The only thing that got covered up was the Emperor's involvement, as him taking sides in a house war is the broader nobility's worst fears coming true: using someone like the Harkonnens as his hatchetmen to start picking apart the rest of the nobility. DTurtle posted:All of that comes back to Dune Part 2 not including anything from the Guild. IMO that is the most significant part that is missing in the movie from a story telling/world building perspective. The Guild really is the missing secret sauce to help the final details come together.
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Mar 26, 2024 01:07
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Famethrowa posted:the knife fight was great because it felt like a real knife fight. no one escapes from serious injuries in a knife fight and there's no fancy tricks, just brutal stabbing. The knife fight in the movie was a vast improvement over the one in the book so I'm fine with Dennis taking some creative license. It probably wouldn't have worked as well for a general audience that wants suspense but I also would have accepted a complete, owning domination by Paul while Feyd is battered around like a little girl. But we all probably have our own takes on how we'd direct a high-budget Dune adaptation.
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Mar 26, 2024 02:28
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The combat in general was better done in this one. It was pretty anemic in the first, the best scene I recall was when the Sardaukar turn up and the massacre is shown by the Atreides soldiers' shields flashing blue and red in the dark. Actual normally lit combat, ehhh something just never connected with it. I guess Denis just isn't really an action director, which is fair enough
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Mar 26, 2024 02:53
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I think the shields add a visual novelty to the fight scenes that is pretty cool. I was really impressed with gurney versus paul in part 1. I liked the moment when duncan gets hit with a maula dart and the camera cuts in close to him deflecting it with his blade. and I think the battle with atreides troops versus harks + sardaukar on the stairs looks great. obviously the fremen don't use them and paul doesn't have access to one so part 2 features much less shield combat, but its absence is felt
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Mar 26, 2024 03:11
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2house2fly posted:The combat in general was better done in this one. It was pretty anemic in the first, the best scene I recall was when the Sardaukar turn up and the massacre is shown by the Atreides soldiers' shields flashing blue and red in the dark. Actual normally lit combat, ehhh something just never connected with it. I guess Denis just isn't really an action director, which is fair enough welllll it was kind of a plot point that the Atreides were going to die in the dark. The emperor's involvement was meant to be covert, so the action was engineered to happen in the shadows. I hate using the term Power Scaling but it was designed to show that Harkonnen troops (outnumbering) < Atreides (well trained) < Sardaukar (secretly best trained). Then in the second film it's revealed that the Fremen are even better trained still, and have more numbers.
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Mar 26, 2024 03:13
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Now I can't stop thinking about how the final duel in The Good, The Band, and The Ugly would have been so much better if, instead of cutting to a wide shot to show who shot who, it just kept flipping between extreme close-ups for another 30 seconds over the sound of gunshots and a body hitting the ground. Missed opportunity, Sergio.
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Mar 26, 2024 03:19
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Does the book ever explain why the Fremen are such good fighters anyway? Paul says they've been fighting the Harkonnens for decades, and while I can buy them being very, very good at ambushes / hit and run stuff, the "effortlessly rinsing Sardaukar in hand-to-hand combat" part always felt weird. Like why even bother with asymmetrical warfare if there's millions of you and you could easily just get close to Arakeen and massacre anyone who isn't a Fremen with virtually no resistance? Does the spice exposure give them some very limited precognition or something? I haven't read the books in drat near two decades so I've forgotten most of it, but I do seem to remember the books eventually backtrack on it and make the Sardaukar decent shock troops with good PR rather than unstoppable elite soldiers.
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Mar 26, 2024 04:32
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disposablewords posted:Other noble houses are probably angry, but technically the Harkonnens followed the proper forms as far as anyone else knows and they can't wholly object. The Atreides had their part in pursuing vendetta, so legally it was "earned" because they clearly weren't ready to stand up to it. The only thing that got covered up was the Emperor's involvement, as him taking sides in a house war is the broader nobility's worst fears coming true: using someone like the Harkonnens as his hatchetmen to start picking apart the rest of the nobility. These guys? https://youtu.be/wRy18Euw6W4?si=pEcukGF6AVMx6CGr
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Mar 26, 2024 04:35
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Does the book ever explain why the Fremen are such good fighters anyway? Paul says they've been fighting the Harkonnens for decades, and while I can buy them being very, very good at ambushes / hit and run stuff, the "effortlessly rinsing Sardaukar in hand-to-hand combat" part always felt weird. Like why even bother with asymmetrical warfare if there's millions of you and you could easily just get close to Arakeen and massacre anyone who isn't a Fremen with virtually no resistance? Does the spice exposure give them some very limited precognition or something? I haven't read the books in drat near two decades so I've forgotten most of it, but I do seem to remember the books eventually backtrack on it and make the Sardaukar decent shock troops with good PR rather than unstoppable elite soldiers. Sardaukar are fanatics who have been told they are the best and are treated like same. Fremen are fanatics who have nothing to lose except their life for a cause. Sardaukar are champions who know it. Fremen are hungry.
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Mar 26, 2024 04:44
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Oh yeah a bit in the movie i really liked towards the end: the door to the Emperor's throne room blows open and there's a big cloud of smoke and dust billowing in. The Emperor sends his sardaukar warriors into the cloud. Dead silence. Then Paul and the Fremen walk out of the cloud totally unscathed. Badass!
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Mar 26, 2024 04:51
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Unti today I never made the connection that the nose plugs look like a Hitler mustache.
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Mar 26, 2024 05:28
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Does the book ever explain why the Fremen are such good fighters anyway? Paul says they've been fighting the Harkonnens for decades, and while I can buy them being very, very good at ambushes / hit and run stuff, the "effortlessly rinsing Sardaukar in hand-to-hand combat" part always felt weird. Like why even bother with asymmetrical warfare if there's millions of you and you could easily just get close to Arakeen and massacre anyone who isn't a Fremen with virtually no resistance? Does the spice exposure give them some very limited precognition or something? I haven't read the books in drat near two decades so I've forgotten most of it, but I do seem to remember the books eventually backtrack on it and make the Sardaukar decent shock troops with good PR rather than unstoppable elite soldiers. It's the difference between "I'm tough because I was trained to live up to a certain reputation" versus "I'm tough because the alternative is individual suffering plus oppression and death for an entire culture". The environmental and political context of Dune means the Fremen have zero latitude for errors or mistakes, which leads to an entire society of pragmatic survivalist insurgents who are maybe also mildly precognitive due to lifelong spice exposure. Training only goes so far.
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Mar 26, 2024 05:33
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Also Fremen consume so much spice that even as normies they have some low-level ninja magic I mean I can't remember how explicit that part is. But if they're already training as death commandos and everything, the slightest hint of prescience would definitely turn the tide
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Mar 26, 2024 05:36
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you know the roman statue retvrn guy meme about "hard times make strong men, strong men make good times, good times make soft men, soft men make hard times" or whatever? in the dune universe this is literally a metaphysical fundamental rule of the universe, the fremen are tough because arrakis is tough.
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Mar 26, 2024 05:37
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Does the book ever explain why the Fremen are such good fighters anyway? Paul says they've been fighting the Harkonnens for decades, and while I can buy them being very, very good at ambushes / hit and run stuff, the "effortlessly rinsing Sardaukar in hand-to-hand combat" part always felt weird. Like why even bother with asymmetrical warfare if there's millions of you and you could easily just get close to Arakeen and massacre anyone who isn't a Fremen with virtually no resistance? Does the spice exposure give them some very limited precognition or something? I haven't read the books in drat near two decades so I've forgotten most of it, but I do seem to remember the books eventually backtrack on it and make the Sardaukar decent shock troops with good PR rather than unstoppable elite soldiers. Arrakis is such a dump the Fremen have to be such good fighters in order to survive. Plus, greater galactic fighting styles are based on deflector shields which dont really work on Arrakis unless the user is ok becoming worm food. So the Fremen have a massive advantage there as well
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Mar 26, 2024 05:41
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hailthefish posted:you know the roman statue retvrn guy meme about "hard times make strong men, strong men make good times, good times make soft men, soft men make hard times" or whatever? in the dune universe this is literally a metaphysical fundamental rule of the universe, the fremen are tough because arrakis is tough. *you know, as opposed to malnourished, constantly dehydrated, and tripping balls from the raw superdrug in the air
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Mar 26, 2024 08:15
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Just had a thought. The 'battle sign' sign language in the movies we see used by Jessica and also the Emperor's Reverend Mother. Am I remembering correctly that in the books it was specifically an Atreides thing? Because it seems like the movies are treating like it's a Bene Gesserit thing instead.
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Mar 26, 2024 09:44
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Does the book ever explain why the Fremen are such good fighters anyway? Paul says they've been fighting the Harkonnens for decades, and while I can buy them being very, very good at ambushes / hit and run stuff, the "effortlessly rinsing Sardaukar in hand-to-hand combat" part always felt weird. Like why even bother with asymmetrical warfare if there's millions of you and you could easily just get close to Arakeen and massacre anyone who isn't a Fremen with virtually no resistance? Does the spice exposure give them some very limited precognition or something? I haven't read the books in drat near two decades so I've forgotten most of it, but I do seem to remember the books eventually backtrack on it and make the Sardaukar decent shock troops with good PR rather than unstoppable elite soldiers. herbert was basically just a "hard times create strong men" guy. the sardaukar are strong because salusa secundus is a hosed up prison planet, but the fremen are stronger because arrakis is even worse. they could take arakeen, but then all the great houses would team up and exterminate them (because the houses and the guild couldn't tolerate spice falling outside of choam's control). unlike paul, the fremen wouldn't threaten to destroy the spice because shai-hulud is sacred etc.
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Mar 26, 2024 10:19
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kalel posted:I think the shields add a visual novelty to the fight scenes that is pretty cool. I was really impressed with gurney versus paul in part 1. I liked the moment when duncan gets hit with a maula dart and the camera cuts in close to him deflecting it with his blade. and I think the battle with atreides troops versus harks + sardaukar on the stairs looks great. obviously the fremen don't use them and paul doesn't have access to one so part 2 features much less shield combat, but its absence is felt Stairs fight was great (wide perspective helped it), as someone said the non-fight in the dust cloud of the throne room doors was amazing, one thing that really irked me however was the one fight in 2 that actually featured lots of shielded enemies: when Gurney raids Arrakeen and he and his Fremen cut through the chanceless Harkonnen. Gurney doesn't pull his strikes at all. There's at least one moment where he stabs a Harkonnen full force, the shield just goes from blue to red and the guy dies. Seems weird that they'd just ignore it entirely like that, it's a minor detail but it irked me both times I watched the movie. victorious posted:Just had a thought. The 'battle sign' sign language in the movies we see used by Jessica and also the Emperor's Reverend Mother. Am I remembering correctly that in the books it was specifically an Atreides thing? Because it seems like the movies are treating like it's a Bene Gesserit thing instead.
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Mar 26, 2024 10:21
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Simply Simon posted:It obviously didn't hurt the rating to have Paul stab the Baron slowly, he had two knives in him, so I don't quite get it. Ratings are some complex calculation of (intensity )* (number of intense bits), so this seems like judicious use of what you can get away with
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Mar 26, 2024 10:29
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Only if performed the same way lmao
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Mar 26, 2024 10:30
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exmarx posted:herbert was basically just a "hard times create strong men" guy. the sardaukar are strong because salusa secundus is a hosed up prison planet, but the fremen are stronger because arrakis is even worse. they could take arakeen, but then all the great houses would team up and exterminate them (because the houses and the guild couldn't tolerate spice falling outside of choam's control). unlike paul, the fremen wouldn't threaten to destroy the spice because shai-hulud is sacred etc. The Fremen also weren't unified at all until Paul showed up, so they weren't ever taking anything regardless of their hypothetical strength. And Herbert had Dune make the Fremen tougher...but also traumatized and hosed up en masse. And it all turned to poo poo the second Paul kicked off the war that showed off how tough they were.
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Mar 26, 2024 10:44
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The doubt about Villeneuve being “not an action director” is unfounded. BR2049 has incredible action scenes, they’re just really short outside of the finale. Think about K getting pulled out of the spinner, or when he smashes through the wall. Iconic stuff. Sicario is also packed with action, it’s just approached through the Villeneuve lens of “violence is terrifying”. The border crossing is the perfect example.
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Mar 26, 2024 14:09
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stumbled on some right wing people talking about the movie and saying because it has a fetus in it who gets dosed with worm juice and becomes psychic that it's a pro-life movie. lmao
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Mar 26, 2024 14:14
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well why not posted:The doubt about Villeneuve being “not an action director” is unfounded. BR2049 has incredible action scenes, they’re just really short outside of the finale. Think about K getting pulled out of the spinner, or when he smashes through the wall. Iconic stuff. Sicario is his best imo, that border crossing scene and the bit in the tunnel where it's just the Americans unloading into rooms you can't see, horrifying stuff. Makes me think a bit of the raid at the end of Zero Dark Thirty where the special ops people look like weird alien things from a horror movie, just lights bobbing in the darkness.
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Mar 26, 2024 14:23
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Simply Simon posted:Yeah it's mostly this. It's repeatedly stated in the books that if you survive on Arrakis you are already a base level insane badass* due to the force of will and discipline required, add training, fanaticism and precognition and you're a supersoldier, then multiply that by a million. There are actually points made that the Fremen specifically make sure to take care of their health. Stillsuits being designed to keep you hydrated and all. They grow fruit in sietch greenhouses, and we see aviaries in the movie. 2house2fly posted:stumbled on some right wing people talking about the movie and saying because it has a fetus in it who gets dosed with worm juice and becomes psychic that it's a pro-life movie. lmao I gotta admit I was thinking that lol
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Mar 26, 2024 14:58
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2house2fly posted:stumbled on some right wing people talking about the movie and saying because it has a fetus in it who gets dosed with worm juice and becomes psychic that it's a pro-life movie. lmao It reminded me a bit of the talking fetus in Blonde, lol. Although I don't think that director is pro-life either, just a "provocateur" (read:edgelord)
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Mar 26, 2024 15:24
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well why not posted:The doubt about Villeneuve being “not an action director” is unfounded. BR2049 has incredible action scenes, they’re just really short outside of the finale. Think about K getting pulled out of the spinner, or when he smashes through the wall. Iconic stuff. He's a fantastic action director when it isn't about choreography. Both dune movies have incredible battle scenes. It's just the actual knife fighting stuff is just notably less good than everything else across the board. If it weren't for the books talking so much about the details I'd probably never have noticed or cared.
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Mar 26, 2024 15:30
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:If there is a Messiah film incoming, how thats gonna work with Chani hating Paul's guts. And no creepy baby Alia yet. Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Oh yeah, does it ever get explained in the later books why Paul is the ubermensch one gen ahead of schedule? Or is the galactic eugenics program not completely infallible after all Scags McDouglas posted:I have an aging SmoothBrain but I don't recall that being different than the books. Harah was classically feminine I guess but Chani took over Paul's challengers to save time, women were straight up football throwing their babies in battle for distractions and Alia (toddler) was commanding a division when she was captured. StashAugustine posted:Yeah Herbert's gender politics are weird and outdated at best, but the Fremen are characterized as pretty egalitarian through sheer pragmatic ruthlessness. Edit: I just remembered that when Paul defeats Jamis, he essentially wins Harah as property, and decides to keep her as a servant and not a wife. She protests "But I'm young!" It's pretty obvious that she doesn't get a say in the matter and any plans she had for a relationship with her husband and children have now evaporated. Edit: I think the whole "women throwing their babies as a distraction" thing is in the context of the Harkonnen cracking down on the Fremen who live in the villages. I think it's also something we only hear from the Harkonnen. I can't find a source, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's just echoing something that e.g. British imperial troops claimed about resistance fighters, and might be metaphorical or total bullshit. In any case, I don't think some lady Fedaykin in a sietch is saying "Hey Yasmin, hand me my crysknife and a baby, I'm off to fight the Harks." Honestly, my memory of that particular line is Ian McNeice saying it. Doctor Malaver posted:While I didn't particularly dislike her, I was reminded of the quip Sergio Leone made about Clint Eastwood: "He only had two facial expressions: one with the hat and one without it". Zendaya has one with the scowl and one without it. Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Mar 27, 2024 |
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Mar 26, 2024 16:15
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Halloween Jack posted:I think it's a real stretch to interpret Fremen society as anything but patriarchal. Chani's a fighter, but her father being Liet Kynes probably has something to do with that. Do we see any female Fedaykin or naibs in the books? Fremen practice polygamy, but are there any cases of polyandry? Men own the water rings and women wear them. It's not like living under the Taliban, but I think it's safe to assume that women are doing most of the domestic labor in the sietches, serving the coffee, weaving the rugs, probably working in the machine shops too. It's a fair point. In the book, Paul is left to decide if Harah will be his wife or his servant after killing Jamis. There are some light references to a mercantile workshop that mostly seem to be a burden for the women. That said when it's fighting time it's all hands on deck for both genders.
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Mar 26, 2024 16:42
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I like the little fart noises that the shields make
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Mar 26, 2024 16:58
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Uncle Boogeyman posted:I like the little fart noises that the shields make If you were sitting next to me in the theater I was just timing those and I'm sorry.
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Mar 26, 2024 17:49
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I do think this movie needed a bit more blood. I was really hoping gedi prime would allow for some stylish blood splatters to really make the harrkonans mroe brutal but alas. You can have pg-13 blood spraying. Or at least have some impact. I really thought that one freman lady’s death in part one where she gets stabbed through her suit and the water squirts out was really cool and stylish.
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Mar 26, 2024 17:55
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