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goddamnedtwisto posted:and if we don't have a cogent plan to reverse that trend then we will basically become the SNP with an Oyster Card. The snp are way, way more successful than labour tho
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Feb 1, 2020 13:27
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i reckon starmer is worse than nandy, all the ghouls will be lining up behing him. he'll be my last choice i think
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Feb 8, 2020 04:18
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Jedit posted:IIRC Nandy said that there should be a second Scottish Indyref, but the whole of the UK should vote on it. lol all the candidates have terrible stances on scotland now that brexit is "done" we can move onto scotland as our labour killing intractable issue
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Feb 8, 2020 14:04
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Jose posted:The other candidates are dismal I really hope she wins. Not sure why ignoring everything else about starmer people think he's a good option when brexit got the party ruined at the election all the candidates are total shite is the issue
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Feb 9, 2020 14:30
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OwlFancier posted:You could also argue that all the brexit voters going tory might have been a problem too... Yeah sure, it's not 2016 now tho, it's a very different time. In 2016 we were all super hype for this jam guy who was gonna win it for us and there was some glimmer of a hopeful future on the horizon. She doesn't seem even as convincing as Corbyn and he just got savagely disembowelled. I will probably vote for her to prevent the rollback of all the momentum stuff but I don't see any path to victory for her (or the others really) e: i'd also say that kier is clearly the most "credible" candidate, which is why he's the front runner. whether thats just due to sexism or what, but he has actually been in the news doing stuff (whether that stuff hosed us or not...) whereas i'd only heard of RLB before this contest as the third most viable hypothetical corbyn successor. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Feb 9, 2020 |
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Feb 9, 2020 14:46
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WhatEvil posted:This loving sucks from RLB. thats really poo poo... e otoh free movement is definitely gonna end lol no need to go europhobic though Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Feb 10, 2020 |
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Feb 10, 2020 03:50
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Bundy posted:Not sure I took away that we were definitely going to win as the general thread rhetoric tbh. There was a lot of optimism, sure and who could have predicted that Boris seeming inhuman and dropping every bollock he could in the media would make him seem "likeable"? there was deffo an atmosphere of insane optimism, i think intentionally embraced by some of us as a mental defence and then other people picking up on genuinely and being cruelly convinced by before we lost incredibly hard to a moron clown (at least hillary won the popular vote, christ!) since i was in from the start i dont begrudge the optimism (at least one of my friends blames me for getting his hopes up tho) but I do now think i'm looking for some introspection and changed attitudes that isn't really reflected by the people who have stayed posting here. Some of whom seem to have pivotted right from the corbyn suicide charge into an RLB suicide charge without taking a breath. Pistol_Pete posted:I'm thinking more of Labour's media appearances in recent years, where they've appeared perpetually over-wordy and defensive. Like Ronald Reagan once said: "If you're explaining, you're losing". I want to see them treating the media as the rigged game it is: a good dollop of Tory cynicism would actually do them the world of good here. yeah agreed if you could grow someone in a vat to lose to boris just on body language and facial expression it'd be kier starmer. dude has the tucker carlson face except instead of puzzlement its apologetic. he constantly looks like hes been photo'd saying "look, yes i'm very sorry but that is what happened." a sorry looking man who is well known for doing his homework and losing the brexit argument vs bojo... very inspiring. otoh a close second runner up would be RLB who looks like she's always got her lips pursed in disapproval or uncertainty. tbh none of these candidates seem like they'd give bojo any trouble apart from, as said, a pissed up thornberry
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Feb 12, 2020 14:32
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Pilchenstein posted:Either tell us what your great wisdom has to offer on the matter or shut the gently caress up. Everyone who's gonna spend the next five years whining about electability and "learning lessons" should just skip ahead to the part where they join blue labour and throw minorities under the bus and save us all some time tbh. yeah this is more or less what i'm talking about lol a critique of RLB is somehow spun into being racist or anti immigrant??? then a bunch of posters basically accusing you of giving up hope or being a tory if you say that RLB isn't a good leadership candidate (neither are any of them) nobody on the left is worried about looking like a dick for losing, its a much more worrying problem then that: that the corbyn approach didn't work. which, y'know, it really didn't. it did at some things but not at winning elections, we got a swing and a miss against Maybot and then a massive loss against Bojo. i will still likely vote RLB, but after the run up to the election and all the corbyny hype that I was a part of too, yeah I'm not that into displays of false optimism atm i just dont think its super helpful outside of a GE e: fwiw a lot of reponders are intepreting this as "give up hope, face to despair" but like, no, just talk realistically about our chances. Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Feb 12, 2020 |
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Feb 12, 2020 15:09
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OwlFancier posted:
yeah a hundo percent agreed there
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Feb 12, 2020 15:27
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if starmer wins i'll stick around and see what happens. part of what I'm trying to take away from 2019 is to not only try not to let my sympathies towards the candidate i like blind me, but to also try to extend a little more sympathy to the candidates i don't like, at least on a provisional basis, on the idea that they're not actually blood drinking psychopaths (well, only about half of them are). a lot of things people were telling us or warning us under corbyn that i disregarded because they were stupid melt shitheads was actually true. i don't have to accept their conclusions but i'm trying to stop myself just going "oh that blairite said corbyn is unpopular with the electorate? that can't possibly be true thats just media manipulation" i'm not gonna vote for him because personally i don't like him as a leadership candidate but if he wins I'll give him a modicum of benefit of the doubt i dunno i'm just rambling while i wait for an email back
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Feb 12, 2020 17:35
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Trin Tragula posted:OK, difficult question time. One of the things Ashcroft's focus groups got out of former Labour voters who switched for 2019 was this sort of thing: i think the trans issue you have to come down on the side of the trans community just because its the only right and human thing to do. i do think its probably more unpopular than popular with the electorate though just cause britain is terfy as gently caress. hopefully not enough to actually lose any proper votes though. i would however be perfectly happy with labour shutting the gently caress up about israel and palestine forever, even though its one of my pet issues. its not our country and has gently caress all to do with our party and only hurts us and makes us look insane. should israeli ethno-nationalism be resisted? absolutely. is that the place of the leader of the labour party? lol no
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Feb 12, 2020 17:38
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Comrade Fakename posted:This is a good video: pretty good the focus on the green revolution is a good idea, in fact i'd basically ditch everything except that in future and make it the main focus of a GE strategy otoh "aspirational socialism" is a funny and awkward phrase. sounds like socialism with libdem characteristics
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Feb 15, 2020 19:54
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ronya posted:I found this take on it to be an amusing one, in the circumstances oh god no lol RLB is cribbing from andy burnham this truly is hellworld Ash Crimson posted:god its almost as if we need to leave this abortion of a nation its time for a brexit imo
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Feb 17, 2020 16:18
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i don't know anything about burger or his politics, and i ain't voting for no man but i do really like his enormous face 
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Feb 17, 2020 19:28
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Noxville posted:Did not watch it but it sounds like they were all varying degrees of poo poo New thread title
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Feb 18, 2020 12:05
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having to fight the urge to just let these centrists have a go again and see the labour party permanently die under their sensible stewardship and them having insane meltdowns because the press are still horrible to them even though they've agreed to kill disabled people or whatever the tory rags want that week. Jessflaps bottled it within a week or so, none of them are as strong as corbyn who, everything else beside, tanked the aggro of the entire media for 5 years and didn't go insane on day 3 like I would have. either way i'll vote in the hope that doesn't happen but if it does the depression is at least lifting enough that I can begin to schadenfreude again which is a small consolation considering the people who will die if the centrists take power and collapse the party again
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Feb 18, 2020 14:01
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OwlFancier posted:You could characterise corbyn's doggedness as a problem given that it meant he wasn't pushed to react. Yeah I was thinking something similar as I posted it. It could also be a sign of the kind of insularity we ended up with, just not caring about stuff coming from outside. For me the real disappointment of Corbynism was all this stuff we assumed was going on: great ground game, building grassroots, alternate media, getting new people in as successors. It seems like that wasn't actually happening after all, or was being attempted but not working. The ground game was decent but majorly mistook enthusiastic corbynistas for grassroots support. For me that's the fundamental issue, what did we actually accomplish, what do we continue with and what is a lost cause or needs changing? It's why though I'm voting RLB I'm not convinced by the "vote RLB to continue democratisation and leftifying the Labour Party" because I'm not sure what the 5 years we just did of that accomplished and much more crucially I'm not sure I trust the RLB team (or anyone else) to know what direction to go either.
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Feb 18, 2020 14:20
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think any of them have a clear plan to fix it but she seems like she's making at least some suggestions I agree with more. That would be nice yeah, considering 2025 is probably a lost cause with any of these people we could at least spend the time crushing the saboteurs as it were. Otoh given her comments on things the press monstered corbs on like Israel I don't think RLB has shown any sign of that kind of inclination, the opposite if anything.
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Feb 18, 2020 14:29
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i thought the royal mail was private now?
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Feb 19, 2020 16:14
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President Bernie is getting me fired up again, lets give this another try It shows its not impossible you just need someone personally popular who rallies the working class … Hmm poo poo
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Feb 23, 2020 16:37
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PFI is what you get when you think you can trust businesses not to try to get the most money out of you. Centrists have this murderous naivety to them. The thing about "the left hates success" is that sure Blair won the election, but the new Labour government was an utter failure. We are trying to avoid failing at what matters rather than the fun media show of an election. It just so happens we also failed at that but... Quiet you!
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Feb 23, 2020 16:55
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OwlFancier posted:I still don't think "we" failed at that as much as the shitbag brigade pulled out all the stops to make it happen and then blamed us for it. I think it's fine to admit we failed. We certainly didn't succeed. "Wot do we do when we fol down, master Bruce?" "I never fell down, Alfred, it was those blairites wot pushed me!" Obviously there were poo poo loads of things against us and the wreckers spent 5 years wrecking things and now are trying to say they're the reasonable ones who can win. But that wasn't a surprise, we knew that the whole time we just didn't overcome the odds like we wanted. I'm up for another go though.
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Feb 23, 2020 18:07
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UK Democracy is a sham but every now and then it accidentally gives people a shot at touching the levers of power briefly. 2017 and 2019 were those. We missed the shot though, maybe we can get another one sooner rather than later. It's not "our" fault since we don't control the Corbyn campaign and it's mistakes or whatever since representative democracy is designed to prevent that. But it was still a gently caress up and for a few of the gently caress ups people itt including me were like "yass Corbyn great idea thread that needle". I dunno I think trying to reassume our sense of superiority as if nothing happened is awkward. Our superiority is obvious compared to the centrists so we can afford to go "whoops that was a mis step huh", leftism isn't that fragile.
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Feb 23, 2020 18:26
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OwlFancier posted:I don't think that at the precise moment when the right is trying to retake control of the party is an appropriate time for self doubt, I would probably say it is the least possibly appropriate time to do that. since all thats required right now is that we don't vote for starmer i don't really see the harm in some self-analysis, if not now, when? blind faith didnt really help us out last time round lol
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Feb 23, 2020 19:37
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gh0stpinballa posted:https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1231845547763544064?s=19 people in the comments to this seem to be misunderstanding this as calling corbynists stalinists rather than calling lansman et al stalinists not too long ago a lot of the left in the UK were genuine stalinists so its not outside the realm of imagination that the old left side of momentum are a bit staliny, mason has said a bunch of dumb poo poo lately though. imo Kier as the anti-capitalist candidate is one of them. Darth Walrus posted:To be clear, Nandy is not the second-best option. She's dreadful. She is, however, in a distant third place, and so having her as your second round preference reduces Starmer's second-round gains as one of the frontrunners. whats so bad about her? the only thing I've heard is a vague association of her with blue labour but the regulars itt seems to hate her. shes the only one of the 3 candidates who doesnt have a disqualifying facial expression on her face at all times imo (kier apologetic and worried, RLB scolding)
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Feb 24, 2020 15:06
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Pilchenstein posted:Once again, I ask you to specify what you think we should have done differently, other than nebulous poo poo like "don't believe as hard" or "have less faith in ourselves" from a while back but its a fair question, though imo the repeated responses ITT to questioning of RLB/momentum with "you just want us to give up hope?" is getting tiring. though i think actually "don't beleive as hard" translates pretty well to "don't intentionally delude ourselves" which is a thing i agree with. looking back quite a lot of what sunk us was staring us in the face, Old Labour battles over I/P, Corbyn's terrible unpopularity with voters, endless public infighting with nothing to be done about it both with the right and within the left. the issue is we were basically going "oh yeah but that stuff doesn't count for us, since we're gonna do things a different way by bypassing all the media drama with support from the ground" and it turns out that, actually, that stuff does count for us, we can't just willfully ignore the political pressures everyone else has to deal with just because we have good policies and the others are incompetent murderers. i think i've said before itt that the big worry for me is that we spent 5 years going "oh we'll open up the party, oh we'll create a grassroots movement, oh we'll get in some successors" and it seems like we didn't do any of that? But since afaik theres no solid info on how that all went down (if there is please link it, id like to know) its hard to say what to do differently other than it didnt work. and personally, corbyn was a compromise candidate, the few people who recognise me will know my pet issue was john mcdonnel and his right wing economic policies which was an enormously dissapointing step down (remember when pikkety and richard murphy were gonna do the economics? man remembering that actually makes a tear come to my eye). there was also quite a lot of policies and drama coming from Old Labour that are improvements on the tories but not really a modern left wing platform. we gave corbyn huge amounts of slack that we wouldn't give anyone else and it did obscure what was actually happening. As someone posted a page or so back, there is (by design) really not a lot we as voters can do about it and I don't think the actual fault was with us, it was with the leadership, whatever plan they had failed spectacularly. since we can't do much as voters, i'd like it if as posters at least we can talk candidly itt about RLB and the direction of the corbyn left without getting upset if we're too critical. for one its just more fun and interesting to read imo than "just vote RLB, no she's fine, honestly, no she's fine" e: and i suppose the BIG issue for me surrounding RLB is... well if it was the leadership wot hosed it... aren't they the ones running RLB? Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 15:18
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Miftan posted:I think the main issue is that people critcising RLB are usually doing it in order to promote the other candidates who are substantially worse than her. RLB isn't perfect, but she's the best we got at the moment and hopefully will come into her own in opposition. Like you said, I don't think there's much we can do as members. Yeah agreed I don't think many people itt are critiquing RLB to push other candidates though. I haven't been following the thread that closely but I haven't actually seen anyone endorse anyone but RLB in here.
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Feb 24, 2020 16:14
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TACD posted:RLB's policy platform sounding more appealing every day if only... NotJustANumber99 posted:I liked what whoever said earlier that he has a permanently worried look on his face. I think people used to put it down to his discomfort at having to stand around with Corbyn, but that excuse has gone now and he just still looks really worried. yeah its weird and its a terrible look for opposing bojo. it looks like hes about to apologise for something thats his fault but he's going to tell you he had to do anyway. for those keeping track, Burgon(?) is definitely winning in the face department, look at the size of the thing, absolute unit! it makes me smile to look at, kinda a rob riggle big face vibe going on. i was trying not to vote for any blokes though to placate my mum who i am beginning to think has a point about the labour party being institutionally sexist and incapable of electing a woman leader e: my centrist dad is definitely gonna sneak kier in there though, even though i recko nandy will be his 1st pref since he seems to just uncritically upload every guardian opinion into his brain Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 17:35
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marktheando posted:I've not really watched much of the labour candidates speaking, but I get the impression that none of them are very charismatic. And I think RLB needs to be charismatic to overcome the baggage of being associated with the losing Corbyn leadership, and the advantages Starmer has with his media support. yeah none of them are very inspiring the issue with kier v RLB is theyr both representing two different approaches that have failed in the past so it really comes down to your personal preferred flavour and who you trust most or realistically who you distrust the least. fwiw i actually don't think kier will have any advantage in the media once the contest is over. he's being puffed up to kill corbynism then he will be torn to shreds since he's a moist eyed melt and very much a london elite type so the ideal opponent for bojos current strategy. its why i really wish there was a left candidate running who had disassociated themselves with corbynism and positioned themselves as something new, maybe that was impossible. thornberry seemed to be trying some bizzare approach to this but she just ended up being the corbyn candidate who disavowed corbyn and owned herself from both flanks. to be clear, what i mean by corbynism is not leftism or the enthusiastic members, i mean the internal leadership and general strategy which regardless of fairness does arguably deserve to fall on its sword. i dont think theres a decent way for them to do that without killing the whole left right now so we're stuck with them, but i can absolutely empathise with labour members who are turned off by associations with the corbyn old guard and want a new direction, since there is no left version of the new direction they're left with Kier who is trying to pitch himself as all things to all people for this exact reason.
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Feb 24, 2020 17:56
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marktheando posted:Oh yeah absolutely, the media will turn on him the second he's leader. I just meant his media advantage in this contest. also when you've got a resurgent tory party that i imagine is very amenable to the type of corruption we definitely don't have in our very developed democracy, its hard for any labour leader to make the case that the fash rags would be better off with them in power
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Feb 24, 2020 18:06
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OwlFancier posted:If starmer is in charge, probably. But I highly doubt the tories are going to actually do a proper job even if johnson postures as being a spendy PM. good lord no, they're not going to actually do it they're just gonna say they are and the media is gonna play along for 5/10 years they could do it but they won't cause social spending is like acid to them
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Feb 24, 2020 19:48
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Darth Walrus posted:It's acid to Javid's faction, who have now lost power. Johnson is all about big dumb white elephant spending. He will spend a shitload, and it will all be in incredibly stupid ways. yeah i can definitely see him spending money on like giant statues of himself, aqueducts and the boris johnson memorial library. but the tories could probably put labour in the grave at this point if they actually did proper social spending but backed up by vicious right wing culture war poo poo i don't think its in the class interests of bojos lot to do that though so i doubt they will, i think they'll just not and say they did
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Feb 24, 2020 19:52
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forkboy84 posted:Well obviously I'm not going to tell you on a public forum silly. yeah ofc, the question was "is the labour party a vehicle for revolutionary change?" and the answer isn't fully in but our projection is: "LOL" but otoh it takes extremely little effort to engage in the electoral system so you may as well also lol "mair" reminds me that i got a pamphlet from a candidate for scottish labour deputy leadership (this is a thing thats happening???) and her big endorsement splashed on the back is gordon loving brown lmao. 10 years ago that woulda been nothing to brag about, its hilarious now
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Feb 24, 2020 20:13
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, I said earlier in the thread that the Johnson government is shaping up to be government by announcement: you control the daily news cycle by making some sort of eye-catching proclamation, deflect any questions about details, reap a round of positive headlines in the press and then do it all over again the next day. Nobody seems to notice or care that you're not following through on any of it and I guess you'd be able to cycle back to previous announcements once a few months have passed. I'm surprised nobody's thought of this before, it certainly seems to work a treat. its just a guess but i imagine Cummings actually does want them to go through with social spending and stuff because... well, its the obvious thing to do and would also be beneficial to pretty much everyone in the tory coalition. i do think a "national socialism" if you will, combined by the tories with xenophobia, racism, transphobia etc, all that good culture war poo poo, would be extremely popular in the UK. (I also think a national socialism without all that poo poo would be very popular, but nobody is offering that and tory voters won't bite if nobody is suffering) but i think the actual money men are far too psycho to go along with it, so even if a bit gets done I bet its not for long. Libertarianism is extremely deeply rooted in the tories, they'll do the vile racism stuff but i doubt they can commit to public spending, heavens no!
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Feb 24, 2020 20:22
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ronya posted:https://twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1231939769891946496 i'd quite like a pledge from one of the candidates "i will never mention israel or palestine again as long as i live" e: i never actually opened my letter from kier, i love my poster. did other people pick up on the "Authority" dogwhistle aka "im the only man"? cause kier does not look like an authoratitive chap at all and the rest of his pitch is quite conciliatory so that bit stands out. unless hes trying to decorum bojo and say he doesnt deserve authority? unfortunately the english think being a fat posh eton wanker is authority at least from his pledges it looks like hes running far to the left of pre-corbyn labour, so that overton window got shifted at least an anti-intervention act sounds loving great but its partnered with "the UK should be a force for international justice" which... if taken in the new labour way.... uhhhh! Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 24, 2020 |
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Feb 24, 2020 22:58
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its a shame we can't trust kier's lot because eye-rolling labour sexism aside (he's just more electable, he's just got authority) they have a decent pitch imo, and i wouldn't be surprised if kier is considerably more popular with voters than RLB. he's marketable to voters in a way that RLB isn't imo. otoh his swotty elite niche isn't gonna be very effective against bojos people v parliament stuff. not convinced he could win, but i don't think any of them can. i guess labour's big problem is that along with being a broad tent the left and right have also basically burnt all their bridges between eachother, i'm actually up for some reconciliation in order to boot the loving tories out and get homeless people off the streets but i can't trust them and i'm sure the feeling is mutual.
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Feb 25, 2020 14:44
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like it was them doing the bridge burning and then blaming us for it tbh. lol we were not exactly gracious in victory either, we didn't purge them or whatever (only because corbyn wouldn't, if it had been up to us...) but things haven't been civil on either side since as long as I can remember. I don't think there is much opportunity to come together but i hope i'm wrong. but if situations were reversed and the labour centre had been running a very divisive turbo-centrist we hated for 5 years then lost catastrophically, if the centrists came to us for reconcilliation what would we say? "Bend the knee." we wouldn't be like "he had some good ideas, lets discuss a synthesis" e: which actually, to be totally fair to him, the kier campaign is doing. its just, as said, we can't trust him to be doing it in good faith Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Feb 25, 2020 |
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Feb 25, 2020 14:56
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mehall posted:The centrists did do that, and they didn't come to us for reconciliation. yep, which is what we're doing right this moment
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Feb 25, 2020 15:11
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OwlFancier posted:The left has not actively sabotaged the center all the time it was in control. The left has been dutiful and worked to support the center for decades, and when we elected someone we wanted, they refused to accept it, and actively worked to run him into the ground, despite his attempts to work with them. And when we lost catastrophically because of the actions of the centrists and their sabotage they now claim to be in the right. we can't just pretend we didn't lose 2019 lol, its childish. how convenient for us that it was all the evil centrists and not our own candidate and campaign that lost it. it requires absolutely no reflection or growth on our part. of course there is equivalence between us, they don't think our poo poo works and want a candidate who does their poo poo, if our positions were reversed we'd do the same. if we had a majority of leftist MPs in labour you wouldn't want them resisting centrism? this post reads like taking our ball and leaving, but after we've already lost the match
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Feb 25, 2020 15:23
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The Deleter posted:Communist Thoughts not living up to his username in this, the UK Marxism Thread, of all places hey its appropriate vague disco elysium spoilers in hit 2019 crpg Disco Elysium you play an amnesiac cop in a post-communist hellhole and can play as a communist yourself but when you finally meet an actual, hardcore communist character they refuse to see you as a communist at all, you're a bougie cop and its ridiculous to call yourself a communist a possible response is "hey! i have communist thoughts in my head!" and i felt the game devs staring me right in the eyes e: then shortly after someone picked the same avatar and custom text as me and i am not sure they know this but we are now deadly foes Communist Thoughts fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Feb 25, 2020 |
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Feb 25, 2020 19:42
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