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Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug
It’s out and it’s decided to do its own thing, instead of being based on the books.

If that brings up trepidation, because the changes they made from the source material were the worst part of S1, well, you wouldn’t be wrong!

Anthony Mackie takes over from Joel Kinnamon, playing the role of Anthony Mackie Takeshi Kovacs, who is tasked with defending a near-immortal rich guy... then solving his murder, because the rich guy gets greased for good in the first twenty minutes.

I found this to be an overall step down from the first season, as did a lot of people in the chat thread, so I’m making this so we can talk about it without taking over the chat thread.

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Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.
Just like S1 I'm enjoying this for being off-brand Blade Runner TV show, but man the plot and dialogue are so cheesy or ham-fisted or just stupid sometimes

So far I'm really really not enjoying amnesiac Quellchrist who has to rediscover who she is like Leeluu multipass

The fight scene with the protectorate guys where they throw a single pistol around to each other seemed like the silliest poo poo to me. Like why not have one guy just shoot everybody? ITS NOT COOL ENOUGH! :cool:

And the part where Takeshi lets himself get beat up after claiming to be a yakuza boss so that he'll be taken before that boss and get to talk to him. You fools! That was what he wanted!!! Except couldn't he have just been like "hey I'm friends with your grandfather and here's your death poem to prove I know him, now take me to him! and avoid getting the poo poo beat out of him? The whole thing was stupid just so they could do a fakeout with the audience making you think he wasn't in control but HAHA he actually is! Its so contrived.

I'm still enjoying it but there's so many more things that made me groan or felt extremely contrived

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug
As far as silly poo poo goes, the lack of nudity feels somehow gratuitous. The first season had a kind of matter-of-factness to people hanging dong or having their tits out, and this one seems to go to Austin Powers-like lengths to avoid showing nudity. The sudden switch between the two makes it really distracting.

As far as issues I had with the gunfights, and deaths in general:everyone, every single person on this season, gets shot through the stack to kill them off permanently. It treats the entire premise of the setting, that death isn’t a big deal now, as some problem it has to solve. Which makes it even dumber, since they made a big deal about killing Poe for real last season but brought him back for this one because he was popular. It wants to have it both ways in a way that makes resurrection feel cheap in a setting that’s built around resurrection being a fact of life.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Ugly In The Morning posted:

As far as silly poo poo goes, the lack of nudity feels somehow gratuitous. The first season had a kind of matter-of-factness to people hanging dong or having their tits out, and this one seems to go to Austin Powers-like lengths to avoid showing nudity. The sudden switch between the two makes it really distracting.

As far as issues I had with the gunfights, and deaths in general:everyone, every single person on this season, gets shot through the stack to kill them off permanently. It treats the entire premise of the setting, that death isn’t a big deal now, as some problem it has to solve. Which makes it even dumber, since they made a big deal about killing Poe for real last season but brought him back for this one because he was popular. It wants to have it both ways in a way that makes resurrection feel cheap in a setting that’s built around resurrection being a fact of life.

Also it's just wholly unnecessary when it's not like you're ever gonna see any of those grunts again. But we gotta have drama so shoot for the head throat! :pseudo:.

I also despise the show's Stack design, because good loving grief is it stupid and undermines the whole point of them on its own. The book stacks are tiny metal cylinders, about the size of a cigarette butt, that get injected at birth while the spine's still soft and it hardens around the drat thing to make it nigh-indestructable. What do we get for the series? Glowing alien discs that barely fit in an adult, let alone somehow fitting inside an infant, and ooh everyone has a scar on the nape of their neck in this season because they Have a Stack... that can't be treated with medical technology that literally treats physical injury as "organic damage" to be repaired to perfection? :confused:.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Glowing alien discs

This is the thing from Season 1 that made me think that Season 2 would be... well, exactly what we got. In the books, all but one of the absolutely crazy sci-fi things is a human invention. There’s Martian stuff but except for (book 2 spoiler) the gate/martian starship it’s all background detail, and the spoiler back there isn’t as important for what it is as what it motivates characters to do. There were aliens, but they hosed off, no one knows how or why (poo poo, the whales know more about them than humanity does) and now humanity is the one running around doing both great and terrible things.

Here? Stacks are alien. The main threat? Angry alien. And it’s not so much motivating people as using them as puppets Harlan’s world is important because alien metal to make the alien stacks. The aliens are ever present and doing everything, and it really takes away from what the book did well, as far as handling the whole “alien precursors” thing.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Ugly In The Morning posted:

This is the thing from Season 1 that made me think that Season 2 would be... well, exactly what we got. In the books, all but one of the absolutely crazy sci-fi things is a human invention. There’s Martian stuff but except for (book 2 spoiler) the gate/martian starship it’s all background detail, and the spoiler back there isn’t as important for what it is as what it motivates characters to do. There were aliens, but they hosed off, no one knows how or why (poo poo, the whales know more about them than humanity does) and now humanity is the one running around doing both great and terrible things.

Here? Stacks are alien. The main threat? Angry alien. And it’s not so much motivating people as using them as puppets Harlan’s world is important because alien metal to make the alien stacks. The aliens are ever present and doing everything, and it really takes away from what the book did well, as far as handling the whole “alien precursors” thing.

I love the Whale thing in the book. It's just such a neat little random detail that comes and goes over a span of like a page or two that Whales not only are sentient and capable of conversation, a few centuries prior someone figured out how to talk to them. Turns out they know quite a bit.

:allears:

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.
Another thing that bothered me is during the circle they make a real big deal out of how Quellcrist is ORGANIC and not a synth!!!! But like... that doesn't prove its the original Quellcrist, you know? The show intends for you to hear "ORGANIC" and go "HOLY poo poo" but the rules of this world in no way guarantee that if you're an organic body, you're the original body. Right? Meth bodies aren't synths, they're organic, but they grow hundreds of clones of themselves, so its not like those organic bodies are really all that distinct from synth bodies other than having red vs blue blood...

which was like how in season 1 you'd have people switch bodies all the time and then Kovacs would just claim to be someone else and people would fall for it. If you exist in a word where people swap bodies, you wouldn't just shrug the whole thing off. Everybody would have some kind of public-key encryption system for proving identity. Otherwise it'd be a total clusterfuck of who is actually who. It'd be trivially easy to impersonate people.

But the writers treat the show like people from our world responding to situations from an entirely different setting, unlike how people who have lived in that setting their entire lives would approach the situation.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Zaphod42 posted:

Another thing that bothered me is during the circle they make a real big deal out of how Quellcrist is ORGANIC and not a synth!!!! But like... that doesn't prove its the original Quellcrist, you know? The show intends for you to hear "ORGANIC" and go "HOLY poo poo" but the rules of this world in no way guarantee that if you're an organic body, you're the original body. Right? Meth bodies aren't synths, they're organic, but they grow hundreds of clones of themselves, so its not like those organic bodies are really all that distinct from synth bodies other than having red vs blue blood...

which was like how in season 1 you'd have people switch bodies all the time and then Kovacs would just claim to be someone else and people would fall for it. If you exist in a word where people swap bodies, you wouldn't just shrug the whole thing off. Everybody would have some kind of public-key encryption system for proving identity. Otherwise it'd be a total clusterfuck of who is actually who. It'd be trivially easy to impersonate people.

But the writers treat the show like people from our world responding to situations from an entirely different setting, unlike how people who have lived in that setting their entire lives would approach the situation.

At least that was addressed by the show saying it was super duper illegal(in Harlan's world? or was it the protectorate planets in general. I think it was the latter but I can't remember). They would probably real death anyone who was caught cloning that body. I mean obviously it would have been much more effective for Danica's plan to just have someone running around in Falconer's sleeve and doing the fake rebellion rather than some no name guy but she didn't so it's definitely a serious offense.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






None of this is making season 2 sound particularly interesting, I think I'll just pretend season 1 was a fairly decent one-and-done.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

"..The high ground"

Ugly In The Morning posted:

As far as silly poo poo goes, the lack of nudity feels somehow gratuitous. The first season had a kind of matter-of-factness to people hanging dong or having their tits out, and this one seems to go to Austin Powers-like lengths to avoid showing nudity. The sudden switch between the two makes it really distracting.

As far as issues I had with the gunfights, and deaths in general:everyone, every single person on this season, gets shot through the stack to kill them off permanently. It treats the entire premise of the setting, that death isn’t a big deal now, as some problem it has to solve. Which makes it even dumber, since they made a big deal about killing Poe for real last season but brought him back for this one because he was popular. It wants to have it both ways in a way that makes resurrection feel cheap in a setting that’s built around resurrection being a fact of life.

To be fair, Season 1 had a problem with everyone just RDing one another like crazy, too. It just comes up more because season 2 does absolutely nothing to explore the concept, whereas season 1 makes a couple of tries.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Panzeh posted:

To be fair, Season 1 had a problem with everyone just RDing one another like crazy, too. It just comes up more because season 2 does absolutely nothing to explore the concept, whereas season 1 makes a couple of tries.

The writing quality is actually the same as the first season, this one just doesn't have a book's plot to hide its deficiencies behind.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Neddy Seagoon posted:

The writing quality is actually the same as the first season, this one just doesn't have a book's plot to hide its deficiencies behind.

This is true. And the first books plot meant they couldn’t RD everyone like they did in this one. When Will Yun Lee Takeshi just broke boring bounty hunter lady’s dad’s stack for no reason I was just like “fuckin’ really, you couldn’t even let one go, everyone in this show about people not dying has to die?”

DropsySufferer
Nov 9, 2008

Impractical practicality
Most of it was just boring and predictable. I give it a D-. The first season at least introduced what a future could look like and vaguely followed the book. Season 2 added nothing and again was boring which is the worst crime.

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

BRASIL HEXA
2026 tá logo aí
e6: Earlier on one of the episodes ended with Mackie Kovacs not being able to shoot the Protectorate guys because his sleeve is programmed not to, yet here he's running around the jungle happily murdering them. I'm only half watching it in the background most of the time, is this just bad writing, or did he do something I missed to break the programming?

I mean that whole scene in the earlier episode is bad too because Jaeger delivers this ice burn to Kovacs about being the alpha wolf, only he was talking to someone else about wolves earlier.


Honestly I've only read the third book and it was one of the worst books I've ever read so I'm not disappointed its this mediocre, but the first season was surprisingly decent.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"
Episode two;


Gotta love how the writers over-value minor things because they can't do anything better. The wolf DNA in the sleeve is just a few brief hunting instincts for aggression and a leaning towards pack-loyalty to keep the Wedge cooperative on the battlefield. But, no, it's "Ooooh what taboo, they spliced WOLF DNA INTO YOU!!", when this sort of thing's common in the books because genetic engineering was mastered centuries ago. Kovacs gets one in the third book with gecko DNA that lets him climb up walls like Spider-Man.

Our bounty-hunting lady is actually Trepp from the first book repurposed and spliced with Sylvie from Woken Furies. Is she still in a Synth sleeve like on the other planet? Who knows, because those things are meant to be cheap androids, not perfectly human-looking with a few metal braids. They could've at least given her the x-ray rings for style.

How the gently caress do you make as interesting and depressing a concept like the Soul Markets boring and cheap-looking? Literally all you need is an endless pile of Stacks on the ground in an large room and they STILL hosed it up.

Has anyone noticed that all the little attributes that make an Envoy an actual Envoy are just gone this season with Kovacs? No passive collection, or even just adapting to his new sleeve out of the tank. He's just generic Broody Anti-Hero #17563234255645.




Eau de MacGowan posted:

Honestly I've only read the third book and it was one of the worst books I've ever read so I'm not disappointed its this mediocre, but the first season was surprisingly decent.

The third book is very much the weakest of the three. Go read the first two, they're much better.


edit:

Hell, let's do Episode 3 as well.


They're gonna comb Kovac's brain using a relatively-ancient technique to forcibly pull images from Kovac's brain... and not just dump his stack onto a drive and do it in virtual where it'd be much easier and inescapab-oh right, Matrix Envoy Bullshit in "~The Construct~". Also we're 30 years after the first season, but the people most dear to Kovacs are... *checks notes* people he knew for all of a week? And of COURSE Carerra is Jaeger. We couldn't just have a character from the book, we gotta pick-and-mix these suckers for best stupid effect! I love how the tell is *gasp* he said the name right that everyone else gets wrong, when they're on Harlan's World. The place where everyone would know how it's pronounced correctly because it's a name local to the planet.

I also see their idea of "Synth Sleeves" also starts and ends at "real people, but they have blue blood" because of course they do, everyone knows androids bleed blue in every science-fiction show ever :pseudo:. No enhanced strength, maybe? How about disabling pain sensations? Why does it have or need organs when these are clearly combat sleeves? This is a whole lot of stupid just to bring back the cast from the first season to get beaten up in THE CIRCLE. Especially when even the first season made a big deal about how just regular hand-to-hand combat is considered pretty boring across the Settled Worlds when you can get custom-built over-engineered muscleheads who can break concrete fighting eachother in the Freak Fights. Speaking of Matrix Envoy Bullshit, I will admit the cinematography with the still shots in the Praetorian fight was actually kinda neat on a TV show's budget. But you'd think those big fancy helmets with their augmented displays and sensory suites wouldn't be affected by merely being in the dark. Also standing in a circle to shoot someone in the center is pretty bad tactics 101 - you're just gonna shoot your squadmates as well as the target.


Special mention to "Duuuh, we done got'em Boss, cause we can't tell red from blue! :hurr:"

Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 10:48 on Mar 4, 2020

Ikonoklast
Nov 16, 2007

A beacon for the liars and blind.

Zaphod42 posted:

The fight scene with the protectorate guys where they throw a single pistol around to each other seemed like the silliest poo poo to me. Like why not have one guy just shoot everybody? ITS NOT COOL ENOUGH! :cool:


Yeah, this scene here made me think that the series can gently caress right off, and I turned it off directly. Enjoyed the books though.

JockstrapManthrust
Apr 30, 2013
Watched it to the end as train wrecks can have entertainment value. Wow, they really had no clue what they were going for on this. It's like Bad Robot levels of "throw every idea into a blender, chug it, and then barf it all over the screen". Part book 2, part book 3, and mainly pulled from deep in their rear end. Hope Morgan got a good payday for this, as fans of the books sure don’t get much.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Episode two;


Gotta love how the writers over-value minor things because they can't do anything better. The wolf DNA in the sleeve is just a few brief hunting instincts for aggression and a leaning towards pack-loyalty to keep the Wedge cooperative on the battlefield. But, no, it's "Ooooh what taboo, they spliced WOLF DNA INTO YOU!!", when this sort of thing's common in the books because genetic engineering was mastered centuries ago. Kovacs gets one in the third book with gecko DNA that lets him climb up walls like Spider-Man.
.

How the gently caress do you make as interesting and depressing a concept like the Soul Markets boring and cheap-looking? Literally all you need is an endless pile of Stacks on the ground in an large room and they STILL hosed it up.



The wolf DNA sleeve thing was so stupid. Let’s take a cool concept for sci-fi, where bodies are so interchangeable and disposable that people aren’t even fully human anymore... and the only effect it has on the plot is the ending of Robocop happens. Happens twice, I think!

And the soul markets in the book were so creepy. Buying and selling human minds by the pound. How do you gently caress that up?

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Neddy Seagoon posted:

No passive collection, or even just adapting to his new sleeve out of the tank.

But both of these things were shown? :confused:

Neddy Seagoon posted:

lots of dumb nitpicks like blood color

lol

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

Ikonoklast posted:

Yeah, this scene here made me think that the series can gently caress right off, and I turned it off directly. Enjoyed the books though.

It's not even a hard scene to do in a decent fashion; All it really needed to show off the "Wolf pack" mentality is just have them all silently kill their targets the same moment their leader starts. Why jerk off over needing a gun to off their prey, when they should be able to effortlessly do it bare-handed. And look even more dangerous in the process?



JockstrapManthrust posted:

Watched it to the end as train wrecks can have entertainment value. Wow, they really had no clue what they were going for on this. It's like Bad Robot levels of "throw every idea into a blender, chug it, and then barf it all over the screen". Part book 2, part book 3, and mainly pulled from deep in their rear end. Hope Morgan got a good payday for this, as fans of the books sure don’t get much.

I'm fully onboard to see this trainwreck to it smouldering wreckage of a conclusion :munch:. I also love how Harlan's World is about as far from oceanic Japan-like landscapes as you can get with Generic Mining Colony World.

I'm pretty sure I've seen most of the set design lifted from the original Total Recall.


CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

But both of these things were shown? :confused:

Nope, he's just out of the tank and somehow still unacclimated and stumbling about even though he'd acclimatized in VR not two seconds ago. One of the fundamental basics of being an Envoy is being ready to go the moment you're sleeved, unlike normal people.


Altered Carbon has plenty of neat futuristic elements to draw from and shape a show around, and the writers just will not touch any of it vs regurgitating generic sci-fi tropes.

Neddy Seagoon fucked around with this message at 16:00 on Mar 4, 2020

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK
Sep 11, 2001



Neddy Seagoon posted:

Nope, he's just out of the tank and somehow still unacclimated and stumbling about even though he'd acclimatized in VR not two seconds ago. One of the fundamental basics of being an Envoy is being ready to go the moment you're sleeved, unlike normal people.

One of the fundamental basics of being an Envoy in the books

ftfy

In the show, he still struggles and stumbles in both seasons. He definitely acclimates faster than normal people though.

And I feel like this is a running theme for most of these complaints: it's not my book. Which is fine I guess, but at least try to judge it for what it is instead of what you wanted it to be. There's plenty to complain about there anyways. For example some of the complaints are that they brought back Poe and Yaeger, but one of the major themes, if not the major theme is dealing with past trauma so it is understandable that they would do that.

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Mar 4, 2020

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"

CAPTAIN CAPSLOCK posted:

And I feel like this is a running theme for most of these complaints: it's not my book. Which is fine I guess, but at least try to judge it for what it is instead of what you wanted it to be.

This is exactly what I'm doing though; My main point has always been that there's plenty to draw from the books to make a decent show with, even if it goes right off the reservation to do its own thing. The problem is they touch none of it and just dive into generic sci-fi cliches instead that wind up leaving the finished product soulless and bland, or even self-contradicting in parts of the first season. It's not "this is what the book does" it's "this is what they had to draw from in the book and ignored/did worse". They have to actively try to be this aggressively bad due to what's basically served to them on a platter to use.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug
The more I think about it, the more I realize it’s an adaptation of something I like that spends most of its time trying to be an adaptation of what you think when you hear “YA Sci-Fi”. There’s nothing it does that hasn’t been done better elsewhere, and it starts bringing up some stuff from the books just to blue-ball you with it when it turns to insanely generic sci-fi or the fanfiction.net style Adventures of the AI We Unambiguously Killed Off Last Time But The Fans Liked.

pentyne
Nov 7, 2012
Like all shows with massive squandered potential the idea of using intermittant humor more often to clash with the dark drama never occured to the writers, they needed Mackie to brood angrily the entire time and get mournful when it counts to force a macguffin to make sense.

For anyone who hasnt seen the Sopranos, while its held up as one of the greatest dramas of all time it has a tremendous amount of humor and comedic lines just interspersed through the series.

I seem to remember a fair bit of humor/amusing dialogue between Kovas and Vernon, the neo Nazi with Ortega's grandmother's sleeve palling around cracking jokes when at the family gathering, and in general a lighter tone so when things went bad it was a major shift.

Running at 100% dark and miserable the entire time means nothing dramatic has any weight because we haven't seen any of these people be happy and human.

Isn't there some writing 101 thing where if a character is always miserable it doesn't matter to an audience if things happen to make them more miserable?

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Neddy Seagoon posted:


And of COURSE Carerra is Jaeger. We couldn't just have a character from the book, we gotta pick-and-mix these suckers for best stupid effect! I love how the tell is *gasp* he said the name right that everyone else gets wrong, when they're on Harlan's World. The place where everyone would know how it's pronounced correctly because it's a name local to the planet.


Yeah this really irked me. For one, Jaeger was a much much better actor than Carerra. And it feels like its supposed to be this big twist but for me its like "duh, of course, who else?", you see it coming a million miles away. Having him be someone else would have actually been more refreshing.

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.

Neddy Seagoon posted:

Nope, he's just out of the tank and somehow still unacclimated and stumbling about even though he'd acclimatized in VR not two seconds ago. One of the fundamental basics of being an Envoy is being ready to go the moment you're sleeved, unlike normal people.

This bothered me as well and seemed really inconsistent.

Envoys are supposed to be super badass because they're "combat ready in minutes!" after casting off-world.

But like, didn't we see protectorate guys cast in S1 and they were immediately lock and load ready to go? I guess they edited out 10 minutes of them all puking in the showers first.

But then Kovacs doesn't seem all that different either! The writers keep forgetting their own rules.

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Zaphod42 posted:

This bothered me as well and seemed really inconsistent.

Envoys are supposed to be super badass because they're "combat ready in minutes!" after casting off-world.

But like, didn't we see protectorate guys cast in S1 and they were immediately lock and load ready to go? I guess they edited out 10 minutes of them all puking in the showers first.

But then Kovacs doesn't seem all that different either! The writers keep forgetting their own rules.

And the whole reason he woke up like that in S1 was because, as far as his consciousness goes, he just went from gunfight to waking up on earth with no inbetween. In S2, he has time in virtual between getting shot and waking up, so he shouldn’t be waking up in panic mode.

The Carerra/Jaeger thing felt off for me, too, because it’s underselling the amount of time that Carerra has been through since poo poo hit the fan. It’s been 300 years, which Kovacs spent most of on ice. If you were going to do that reveal, it would have been cool to have Kovacs be the furious one and Carerra not give too much of a poo poo- it’s been 300 years! He’s probably had people do way worse to him in those 300 years. For Kovacs the whole thing would be much rawer. It’s just one of those things where the show doesn’t really want to engage with the premise, and the 300 year gap was a show thing in the first place.

Strom Cuzewon
Jul 1, 2010

Zaphod42 posted:

This bothered me as well and seemed really inconsistent.

Envoys are supposed to be super badass because they're "combat ready in minutes!" after casting off-world.

But like, didn't we see protectorate guys cast in S1 and they were immediately lock and load ready to go? I guess they edited out 10 minutes of them all puking in the showers first.

But then Kovacs doesn't seem all that different either! The writers keep forgetting their own rules.

Also CTAC are promised a reward of a crazy high-tech super-synth. Which they would promptly have to abandon once they casted off world to the next mission.

Pastamania
Mar 5, 2012

You cannot know.
The things I've seen.
The things I've done.
The things he made me do.
I've never read the books and I only watched S1 a few weeks ago, but there definitely a massive gulf in writing between the two seasons.

S1 had all sorts of running themes about class and inequality, the corruption of power and the importance of death.

S2 had an evil bat monster that shoots sky lightening. It's basically a Marvel show, but there's a bit more blood and Misty occasionally says 'gently caress'.

Everything else was fine, I don't regret watching it or anything, but I suspect I'd have forgotten literally everything about it by the end of the month.

Neddy Seagoon
Oct 12, 2012

"Hi Everybody!"
You know, the weapon that *gasp* KILLS THEIR REMOTE BACKUPS!! is A: Ripping off the movie Surrogates, and B: retreading the first book's insanely-difficult viral strike on Reileen. All because they're intent on doubling down on "this is a society where nobody can die, LOOK HOW DRAMATIC IT IS WHEN WE FIND WAYS TO MAKE PEOPLE DIE!!".


Pastamania posted:

S1 had all sorts of running themes about class and inequality, the corruption of power and the importance of death.

I'd forgotten all about their stupid tower in the first season, all so a tower-o'-Meths could literally look down on everyone with Bancroft's house at the top as he reigns supreme and DO YOU GET THE SYMBOLISM, AUDIENCE? DO YOU?!! The book gets the same exact message across but in a much less hamfisted manner; Suntouched House is on a private island out in the middle of the bay. Old, and functionally isolated from the rest of society, and decadently expensive.

Ixian
Oct 9, 2001

Many machines on Ix....new machines
Pillbug
I though S1 was decent, approaching great at points. S2 was a piece of poo poo approaching mediocre at points. It was S1 that kept me holding out hope that at some point this new season would, if not be redeemed, then at least not utterly suck, but nope. What a waste.

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle

Actually the best thing about the Season was opening with brining in Michael Shanks as a Meth then having him die, classic Daniel


Also I think Anthony Mackay wasn't the right fit, I think Joel Kinnamen was much better as Kovacs.

Finally this season did have a lot to do with the books... it was a hosed up mashup of 2 & 3 and suffered from stuff the background stuff they hosed around with in the previous season, and also made some cool things from the books look cheap and lovely like the soul market.

Jack2142 fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Mar 5, 2020

ded
Oct 27, 2005

Kooler than Jesus
Season 2 just did not have the same feel as season 1.

splitting quell into 2 people really hosed things up, and the warbraids? lmbo so underused and not really explained. things they changed in season 1 from the books made things even worse in season 2.

Meiteron
Apr 4, 2008

Whoa! You're gonna be a legend!
Like a lot of people here I found season 2 a step down from season 1, which was imperfect but benefited from some interesting and unique ideas which elevated it a fair amount, even if it found it's own ways to sink back down.

Thinking about it I think the core I find so disappointing is that season 2 moves pretty far away from the actual, interesting themes of the first season in doing it's own thing. What we're left with is, essentially, a story we've heard before: a sci-fi culture in societal unrest and humans loving about with ancient alien technology when they shouldn't be that Causes Problems.

And you know what? That is literally the one sentence description of The Expanse, and The Expanse absolutely eats AC's lunch in depicting it. This is what hurt the show the most this season when it moved away from it's own territory, for me.

(spoiler for both television shows)
Gate Builders better Precursors than Elder Race change my mind

Jack2142
Jul 17, 2014

Shitposting in Seattle

Meiteron posted:

Like a lot of people here I found season 2 a step down from season 1, which was imperfect but benefited from some interesting and unique ideas which elevated it a fair amount, even if it found it's own ways to sink back down.

Thinking about it I think the core I find so disappointing is that season 2 moves pretty far away from the actual, interesting themes of the first season in doing it's own thing. What we're left with is, essentially, a story we've heard before: a sci-fi culture in societal unrest and humans loving about with ancient alien technology when they shouldn't be that Causes Problems.

And you know what? That is literally the one sentence description of The Expanse, and The Expanse absolutely eats AC's lunch in depicting it. This is what hurt the show the most this season when it moved away from it's own territory, for me.

(spoiler for both television shows)
Gate Builders better Precursors than Elder Race change my mind

I think this nails it down, down to Carrera looking kind of like Amos imo. They were trying to ape the Expanses success it felt like more than go their own direction.

Andrigaar
Dec 12, 2003
Saint of Killers
Watching S2E2 right now and already I'm conflicted. It's been over a decade since I read the books, but the comments above might explain why none of this feels familiar.

"I'm the alpha."
Oh boy! Debunked social science too.

Ep ended. That's 90+ minutes of content and I swear fuckall has happened. Then a few minutes into Ep3 and it's just a pastiche of random cyberpunk terms from the books and first season. Is RKM still working on this show?

Eau de MacGowan
May 12, 2009

BRASIL HEXA
2026 tá logo aí
wow that was bad

it was actually worse than the book

i hope the actors got paid extra for every time they had to scream for seconds at a time, double pay for when they are looking heavenward getting incinerated by laser beams

Ihmemies
Oct 6, 2012

Hot garbage. Maybe 2/5 while the season 1 was 4/5. Welp. At least they tried :effort:

Ugly In The Morning
Jul 1, 2010
Pillbug

Jack2142 posted:

Actually the best thing about the Season was opening with brining in Michael Shanks as a Meth then having him die, classic Daniel


Also I think Anthony Mackay wasn't the right fit, I think Joel Kinnamen was much better as Kovacs.

Finally this season did have a lot to do with the books... it was a hosed up mashup of 2 & 3 and suffered from stuff the background stuff they hosed around with in the previous season, and also made some cool things from the books look cheap and lovely like the soul market.

Part of the problem with it being a hosed up mashup of 2&3 was they would start to use a concept from the books and then take it in what I realize is a very cut-rate Expanse direction. You could feel when they would start going their own direction with a concept because all the sudden it would just become really shallow.

Meiteron posted:

Like a lot of people here I found season 2 a step down from season 1, which was imperfect but benefited from some interesting and unique ideas which elevated it a fair amount, even if it found it's own ways to sink back down.

Thinking about it I think the core I find so disappointing is that season 2 moves pretty far away from the actual, interesting themes of the first season in doing it's own thing. What we're left with is, essentially, a story we've heard before: a sci-fi culture in societal unrest and humans loving about with ancient alien technology when they shouldn't be that Causes Problems.

And you know what? That is literally the one sentence description of The Expanse, and The Expanse absolutely eats AC's lunch in depicting it. This is what hurt the show the most this season when it moved away from it's own territory, for me.

(spoiler for both television shows)
Gate Builders better Precursors than Elder Race change my mind

I really hated the whole ancient alien thing in this season. It's so cliche and played absolutely straight, which, again, is a problem I've had whenever this show makes changes from the source material. Most of the time, that's fine- the changes the Expanse made improved the pacing substantially and helped deal with some inconsistencies. Here, it seems like whenever something changes, it's because the writing staff went on TVtropes and found some kind of sci-fi checklist.


The critical reception to season 2 is weird. It's pulling an 83 critic score and a 38 audience score on RT. While some of that is probably trolls angry there's a black guy in the lead, overall the audience reception I've seen on and offline to this season is pretty poor. The positive reviews are the kind of thing where I wonder if they even watched the same show I did.

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Andrigaar
Dec 12, 2003
Saint of Killers
Six episodes down. This is now an ungodly chimera of books 2 and 3 that doesn't really make any sense. Not only does it look cheaper and cheaper the further in it goes, but this feels like it's barely above a PG-13 now. The chick in hibernation (who it is doesn't matter at the moment), it was hilarious how perfectly glued on and placed her hair was to cover things up.

Everyone being a hardboiled badass got old fast too.

I'll finish it up tomorrow, but will there be any source material left worth cobbling together for a season 3? Not that I want one anymore.

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