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Khizan posted:The impression I remember getting from Miller was that he's a burned out alcoholic, but he used to be really good at the job and he doesn't realize how far his abilities have declined. This is the reading I always got from Miller too.
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Mar 25, 2020 12:23
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:
It's interesting to me that you glossed over this, because Jared Harris is basically a masterclass in this role, and either because of direction or his choices is basically the shoes template for Belters going forward. He takes a kind of dull and forgettable role like Dawes and makes him absolutely magnetic. I hope the show can use him again in the future, more extensively than the books too if possible.
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Mar 27, 2020 20:57
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One thing of note is that whilst events have been shuffled around the TV series actually ends season one with the escape from Eros, and it's an awful end point of the season. Just as things are starting to pick up the entire thing ends, and its left feeling like their was zero resolution to anything for viewers who don't know the books.
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Apr 19, 2020 18:19
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This is kind of a side question, but there seems to have been some discussion about in the thread and I'm out of touch with the Expanse franchise. Do we know any more behind the scenes gossip/news about how killing Alex affected that season/the reason the show ended/what future plans where and if anything is still happening? Loving reading your thoughts on the books, which I've finished, and I always felt like the writing in the last trilogy was held back by keeping events scaled to a TV show budget.
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Aug 16, 2023 10:25
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:That said, I still run off the theory that killing Alex was dictated from above the writers/creators as whoever made the decision saw him as just the pilot, and then the difficulty of writing around the lack of Alex in the later books was a factor in the cancellation. I definitely feel like a lot of the passion for the show, behind the scenes, died when Cas was outed and left. From interviews and snippets it does seem like loosing Alex and facing the prospect of big changes to the story killed any desire to push for further seasons. I'd be interested in hearing how much Cas being written out changed his last season. I feel like attempts to minimize his scenes really hurt the pacing for that season, and his investigation on Mars ending after a couple of episodes, only to have him sat on the Razorback for most of the season was rubbish. They also cast a fairly big guest star for Sauveterre and had him in two scenes total, so presumably there was more of him originally too, but maybe not. Milkfred E. Moore posted:And yeah, I think the weaknesses of the later books -- especially Tiamat's Wrath and Leviathan Falls -- feels like they were pre-emptively scaling to the TV show budget. There's nothing in the later books as crazy as what we see in Abaddon's Gate or Cibola Burn. The ending of the last book, basically being a retread of Abaddon's Gate, very much left me feeling like the writers knowing they could achieve the climax on screen so writing towards that. I don't want to say the ending was disappointing, but the scale was definitely smaller than I'd wanted. Even the 30 year time jump feels as much like a conceit to keep the same actors in the roles. I'd of rather seen a 100+ year time jump and whole new characters. The earlier books and the scale of events in them is a fairly steady build, and then they kind of reach a peak around the middle of the saga and scale back from there. I wish I had more enthusiasm for the comic and game, but I just can't seem to muster any for them.
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Aug 17, 2023 12:43
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:I don't think there's ever been any proof that Alex's role in that season was changed (although there was definite proof that he was in the scenes following his death on Luna, so, there were reshoots at some point) but I feel like they had to be because, as you say, it's really odd for Alex's plotline to go the way it did in the series and then to have both Anvar and Adams just sitting in the Razorback set for so many episodes. Not to mention that said plot should have involved our first interaction with Duarte, who then gets introduced in a manner that feels very odd, and the Martian collapse plotline was much more prominent than it was in the books. It genuinely surprised me that we didn't even see Duarte during that season. It feels like, in an effort to minimize his screen presence, they took two episodes of him sitting on the Razorback and stretched it backwards, but removed more content of him on Mars. I also feel like him dying in the process hurt Naomi's ending, and the ending on Luna for sure. They should have at least had Bobbie join the crew officially so that you had Mars presented on the crew before Avasaralla's big speech. In retrospect I wish they had simply left the season intact, acknowledge in a press release that it was completed before the allegations came out and then recast him for the following season. Milkfred E. Moore posted:The ending of the series is just... whelming. With the final book, I wrote out something like ten predictions before I cracked open the novel and I think I got nine of them right. I'll have to dig them out when we get there. It's very much the ending you expect to get, very safe and just... whelming. There was a comment I saw soon after release that was, paraphrasing, "Well, at least it wasn't a total dumpster fire?" and I think that sums it up. I remember those predictions in the thread, and how spot on they were. I think, my main disappoint wasn't the content of the story, but the execution. No final space battle really, just Holden and an insufferable Laconian walking through some corridors. No big revelation about the Roman's either, really. I'll save more in-depth thoughts until you cover those books though.
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Aug 17, 2023 16:16
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:And we are off with a bang! It turns out Avasarala died four months ago. People are divided as to whether she was a benevolent custodian or a tyrant. Holden is stunned. He considers Avasarala as someone who was doing everything she could to bend history away from atrocity. This is a heck of an opening line, but I feel like it would've been much more effective to announce the timeskip at the start of Persepolis Rising. You are 100% right about her death being the start of the time jump. Her role in Persepolis Rising is a little cringe to be honest, and her funeral would of been a quick, impactful way to catch up on all our characters after the time jump. It also would of been a good way to get the Rocci crew back together after they have drifted apart into their own lives, so it didn't feel like they had spent 30 years in stasis. Milkfred E. Moore posted:Arjun said this back to Avasrala in Chapter 45 of Caliban's War. Avasarala lovingly mocked it at the time. Really nice callback. This is nice. I didn't catch this when I read the book, so thanks for pointing this out. Also, just taking this opportunity to say that the TV Show recasting did a lot of harm to Arjun, Avasarala and the asteroid attack plotlines. It's probably the single worst recasting I can remember for that reason.
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Oct 12, 2023 11:17
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:It was an absolutely bizarre choice, yeah. He looks nothing like him, he acts nothing like him. I'd almost believe someone got Arjun, Errinwright and Cotyar confused and ended up somehow overlapping them into Season 4's take on Arjun. Part of me wonders if it was a deliberate character assassination so his death could be glossed over/impact Avasarala less, but it's not like it impacts her that much in the book either because she has a job to do.
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Oct 12, 2023 14:00
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Orbit just revealed the collectors editions of Caliban's War and Abaddon's Gate and I'm fair disappointed in them both. https://twitter.com/orbitbooks/status/1715020186649260231 The Caliban's War cover is okay, but the Abaddon's Gate one is rubbish. Looks really cartoony, and using silhouettes of other franchise ships is cute but not really what I'd want from a collectors edition. Also, for both books, the inside cover maps remain unchanged from Leviathan Wakes, so both include Eros, and neither features the Ring. Just cheap choices all around.
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Oct 19, 2023 17:27
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The new James S. A. Corey book got officially announced. Out August next year and called The Mercy of Gods. Interestingly it's premise basically sounds like some The Expanse fan-fiction/what could of been. I'm willing to bet a lot of these ideas came out of brainstorming for the Romans and Goths. James S. A. Corey posted:How humanity came to the planet called Anjiin is lost in the fog of history, but that history is about to end.
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Nov 10, 2023 13:07
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Kchama posted:Is the idea that Duarte has gotten more people killed than Holden even true? Holden got a lot of people killed with his whole "Oh yeah lemme blast everything I find to the universe without even thinking about it I'm so smart!" antics. I guess Laconia destroyed the Independence (Void City) in Sol? It has a population of around two hundred thousand and is probably the biggest cause of mass causalities in the main conflict. Of course we can also attribute other deaths to Duarte. Surely a lot of people died when everyone in Sol lost consciousness but that's a very nebulous figure. Timmy is probably also counting Duarte's role in the asteroid attacks on Earth as being attributable to him, in which case, he certainly did kill more than Holden, but does Timmy even know about Duarte's connection to that? PriorMarcus fucked around with this message at 13:55 on Nov 17, 2023 |
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Nov 17, 2023 13:49
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Quote is not edit.
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Nov 17, 2023 13:52
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:So, everyone can see that weird opalescence, I guess. But Naomi didn't see it on the video call. Does he disguise it when making video calls? Who knows, but it sounds like bad news for Teresa! I might be misremembering, but doesn't Teresa see the opalescence because she's already being experimented on at this point?
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Dec 4, 2023 15:02
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Maybe it's because I feel like this extradimensional warfare drama just doesn't feel relevant to the core of the Expanse. There's a version of this story that ties back into the core of The Expanse, and the heart of it all, but I can never quite tell how short the books end up of it. I feel like the ending I would've wanted is right there, but they never quite reach it. I'm not sure if that's because they were never able to, or if the TV show changed enough of how they were writing the books that it didn't gel back together, but it definitely left me colder on the books than I had been.
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Dec 5, 2023 15:23
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Interesting. Would you mind expanding on this? I'm curious, although I think I agree with the general gist. I just feel like the Roman/Goth conflict, and the ensuring Human/Goth conflict never really ties back into the larger themes of the story. For example the Belters and their oppression, and the way humanity treats itself, is all but dropped in the later trilogy, despite the occupation being a good opportunity to explore that, and they do make nods towards it. I feel like the mystery of the Romans/Goth should've tied back into this, but as it's presented to us it's a pretty simple conflict of one force fighting another, no matter how hard to comprehend those forces might be. Unfortunately I'd kind of grown attached to my own fan fiction about what the background to all of that was, but that's on me. In terms of the TV show impacting the writing... I feel like the first trilogy has a very steady build up of showing us more and more amazing things, from the grounded start of the first novel to the dandelion sky. Further escalation is hinted at in the next trilogy, and Illus shows a lot of it, but it's all but abandoned for the last trilogy. I feel like by the time the last three books roll around anything amazing is easy to achieve on a TV budget, and the very ending being back on the ring station, as basically a repeat of the end of Season Three, really felt like it was written with the TV show in mind. (as was, in some ways, the return of Miller) Maybe the books were never going to keep escalating in the way I wanted, and maybe they never intended for the Roman/Goth backstory to thematically say something about humanity, but I'm disappointed they didn't.
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Dec 6, 2023 13:04
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Yeah, I have basically the exact same reaction/thoughts on Amos as you. Was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt but the next novel barely even uses him.
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Jan 13, 2024 20:48
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banned from Starbucks posted:I guess you could keep Avasarala alive for another season and kill her off between season 8/9 instead of between 7/8. She's really the only other person close to Bobby. You'd lose the scene with Holden remembering her at the state building but like...so what. God no. I'd much rather Avasarala die off-screen in the time jump rather than see them try to age up the actress for a cameo talking to Drummer. I always thought it was weird as poo poo they didn't use her death/funeral as the intro to the time jump. They really should of recast Alex. Who gives a poo poo? Keep the season Cas filmed as it was, recast him for the next. That said, in the show, I figure maybe they would keep Naomi with Alex and give Drummer her role in the shipping containers.
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Jan 22, 2024 10:36
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What's amazing about this book feeling really sloppy (which I agree with) is that it was delayed a full year from the usual release pattern so they could work on it more. And yeah... Tanaka. I just don't know what happened with her, or how anyone that read those chapters thought she was a good idea. She's unpleasant to read, and not in a satisfying way where you expect there's some big comeuppance coming up. She's exactly as deadly and competent as she thinks she is, and none of her negative qualities ever impact her being deadly and competent. And yeah, she vapes, because I guess vaping was a big thing when this novel was being written. Even though with current medical technology you'd think vaping wouldn't really be a thing anymore? I'm not exaggerating when I say that she's not just the worst character in all of the Expanse books but she's the worst POV character in anything I've ever read. I also can't remember, and admittedly I've not read this book since it's release, but I can't remember her contributing a single thing to the actual plot? I think you could cut her out entirely and you wouldn't have to change much of anything?
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Mar 4, 2024 17:38
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General Battuta posted:There's a better, more dramatically satisfying version of this story where Tanaka is Bobby. Where she bought into the Laconian dream and never joined the Rocci? I can see that working. Disillusioned Bobby after the events of Book Three would be easy pickings for Duarte to recruit by promising her he's the version of Mars she always thought she was working for pre-Caliban's War.
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Mar 4, 2024 18:22
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I actually remember having some sense of hope in this chapter that they were going to kill Tanaka off immediately as a twist...General Battuta posted:Tanaka is already unpleasant to read but this chapter makes her seem completely incompetent too. Do the Coreys hate her??? These choices baffle me. And it really seems like they were setting her up to be all bark and no bite, but no, she just keeps on trucking.
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Mar 18, 2024 00:50
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banned from Starbucks posted:Making Bobby a Laconian sympathizer or whatever makes zero sense. Honestly I think it's the exact opposite. It makes more sense than her hanging around on the Rocci for 30 years accomplishing nothing. Her dream of Mars might have died when she encountered corruption in the Martian government but it was a dream she had for the majority of her life, Duarte, if he'd been savvy enough, could of recruited her off that alone before he ever left Sol. Hell, she'd be valuable to him as a political tool in the same way Holden was, and she's been inside working protomolecule tech. Just have her leave the series after Abaddon's Gate, like many of the protagonist do when their story is over, and then bring her back in Tiamat's Wrath as Holden's friendly, but opposing face on Laconia. Then, instead of tracking down Duarte, she can be tasked with tracking down Teressa/Holden directly in this book because she knows him and Teressa might lead to Duarte.
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Mar 18, 2024 11:35
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Guess! Oh my God. I don't remember any of this at all either. Hmm... he's going to try shooting at their drive core? I know it's going to be something completely loving standard and underwhelming and most likely already tried.
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Mar 23, 2024 11:20
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General Battuta posted:I don't understand why the special agent/designated Commander Shepherd of the entire Laconian Empire doesn't bring enough dudes/ships to deal with one insanely old corvette class frigate (or frigate class corvette). They are jobbing so hard. Is Laconia fascist? Of course they are, but the books seem to change their minds on this constantly.
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Mar 23, 2024 16:01
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Tanaka is in counseling with Major Ahmadi. Which means backstory time -- Tanaka was orphaned at "quite a young age" and spent "over forty years" with front-line combat units, all of it largely classified, meaning she has led a life of "constant trauma" more or less. No long-term relationships, never lived anywhere for longer than a year, refusing promotions to remain a field officer. Doesn't this make no sense at all? What front-line combat could she have possibly seen to give her constant trauma? We've seen every major conflict of the last 50 years at this point and not once was their a massive boots on the ground presence.
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Apr 10, 2024 10:00
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:And like, she never lived anywhere longer than a year? Even over the thirty year period where Laconia was being established? What? Yeah, none of it really hangs together, and the version of the political/military landscape from the earlier books is much more interesting to me. One would also assume that those 30 years establishing Laconia, which makes up the bulk of her time in the military, where relatively quiet and uneventful. How much need for a power armored insane murder soldier could their be? Also, I don't remember her ever appearing before this book.
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Apr 10, 2024 11:08
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I agree with everything you said. I do think that the secret meta-plot of the series is bullshit, but I also don't know if the Corey's even intended it to be that. Giving them some benefit of the doubt, and maybe a re-read will make me less generous, I assumed the Builders/Roman's (when was the last time the Roman/Goth naming was used?!) had seized on the opportunity Duarte presented when he faded away/contacted the diamond or something similar, not that it had been their millennia long plan like some people interpreted.
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Apr 24, 2024 10:02
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Yeah, the Roman nomenclature just vanishing is conspicuous. I feel like it could be related to this sudden insight into a master plan 'twist.' You can't suddenly have their big symbolism being 'the long dead empire that build roads' if you want them to suddenly show up as an antagonist. I'm interested in where you think it was going/presenting versus what we got. Again, I agree with everything you said, and that author interview is interesting. I've never really tracked down anything they had to say after this novel because it kind of left me cold on the franchise. The builders were demonstrably interested in matter. Why even build the gates to expand their empire if they could take it or leave it? If they are just a consciousness stored collectively on the BFE then why even worry about having all these material relics around the galaxy that served some purpose. It's utterly bizarre. I can buy that they Goths aren't interested in matter, and they just wish it would still infringing on their reality, maybe they got confused somewhere in the telling of it all? Making this an unintended consequence of Duarte being vaporized makes so much more sense across the board. I think there's ways for the big, larger than life science fiction story to tie back into the story of human ice miners being exploited, and I've dreamt up alternative endings for the series where it does, but what we have doesn't get close. Interesting, if this was their plan all along, or even before the final book, we see no evidence at all of it in the TV adaptation which they've gone on record saying is like a second draft for them. PriorMarcus fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Apr 24, 2024 |
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Apr 24, 2024 13:14
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General Battuta posted:God I completely forgot about this. Me too.
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Apr 24, 2024 17:27
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General Battuta posted:I think (if I had another draft on this final book) a cleaner way to do this story is to return to some of the tone and themes of Leviathan Wakes. (It's right there in the title.) This is a really strong idea. If I was to refine it slightly I'd still have Duarte partially overtaken by the builders and have the weapon be something they only dreamt of in the time since their defeat, so that it doesn't seem like a loose end that they didn't use the weapon during the original conflict. Then it becomes a kind of bitter remnant of the Roman's who are refusing to forgive/admit defeat and endangering everyone for their pettiness which I think kind of comes a bit closer to the themes of the story.
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Apr 24, 2024 19:06
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:To such an extent that, like, "the dark gods are the reality-breaking psychic remnants of all the dead species the Builders wiped out, and they want to be put to rest but can't destroy the infrastructure that houses them" feels like it'd make more sense, be more palatable, and fit with ideas the series raised. This was my theory years and years ago about what was happening with the Goths; PriorMarcus posted:Does anyone have any theories on the goths?
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Apr 26, 2024 16:10
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I think, going back to my idea of the Goth's being the gestalt intelligence of the previous protomolecule, making Duarte be possessed by them, rather than the Roman's, would sort out a lot of the ending. His goal, instead of instrumentality, could be to shut down all the gates for good, which they weren't able to do last time as they didn't have access to the substrate. This is bad because no matter what it condems millions to death in colonies that still aren't entirely self reliant and... oh.
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Apr 28, 2024 10:05
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Strategic Tea posted:I'm just gonna say that It's such a stupid, grating last line from Tanaka. I can't believe we've fell this far. The first books were genuinely good, and this has moments of that still present but then... Tanaka posted:"Bang, motherfucker," she said.
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Apr 28, 2024 15:36
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General Battuta posted:There's a version of this ending, just slightly different, where they agree to shut down the gates slowly and the Transport Union is in charge of getting people and resources consolidated on the livable colonies before they turn off the gates forever and say "see you in a few thousand years". Holden can keep the Goths back long enough because the authors say so. Suddenly all that time Naomi spent in a shipping container moving stuff around the gate network and learning about the colonies pays off...
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Apr 29, 2024 15:07
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General Battuta posted:The American fantasy of sufficiently targeted violence Does this mean that the true message of The Expanse is pro-Drone warefare?
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Apr 29, 2024 16:34
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| # ¿ May 9, 2024 00:42 |
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Thanks for the thread Milkfred. It's been great reading it and responding in it.
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May 2, 2024 08:53
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