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Kadorhal posted:Same here. Aesthetically, for me Downtown is probably the high point of this third of Doom II (Industrial Zone is a close second). Gameplay-wise is a different story. It's not the worst map of this section by any stretch - if there's any map from this part of the game I'd have to say I don't like, it would be The Citadel - but there's fewer things across this game that annoy me as much as grabbing the blue key in this level and then trying and failing to remember which of the four or so teleports take me where I need to go to actually use it. It's definitely an easy one to get lost in. Christ, I think I wandered around for like 40 minutes before I finally finished it. Re: The pistol, I make it a point to map every weapon to a face button on my controller, except the pistol. I spent most of all three OG Doom games forgetting I even had it. Revenants are coded very strangely, in regard to whether their missile attacks are homing or not. Decino did a video on it a few weeks back, but the gist is it's a dice roll weighted toward it being a homing attack depending on whether you're on an odd or even game tick when the revenant fires, and if the initial game tick when you start playing was odd or even. It's 50/50 whether they'll mostly shoot dumb-fire rockets or mostly shoot homing missiles. Relatedly, because of the bizarre pseudo-RNG fuckery, revenants actually desync playback of demo recordings every time they fire. KeiraWalker fucked around with this message at 12:31 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 11:54
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I love the comment about needing an archvile to flip up onto something. Cause the way they do the Innermost Dens in a speedrun is to do exactly that, use an archvile's attack to toss Doomguy into the exit room without needing to get keys first.
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Jun 6, 2020 23:28
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KeiraWalker posted:Relatedly, because of the bizarre pseudo-RNG fuckery, revenants actually desync playback of demo recordings every time they fire. Isn't this a huge deal? My knowledge of the DOOM scene is superficial but from what YouTube sometimes recommends me, the speedrun community is quite active and new records and cheaters are a big deal, and they use demos for those if I'm not mistaken, so how can that work when one type of enemy fucks demos up?
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Jun 7, 2020 08:34
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Petiso posted:Isn't this a huge deal? My knowledge of the DOOM scene is superficial but from what YouTube sometimes recommends me, the speedrun community is quite active and new records and cheaters are a big deal, and they use demos for those if I'm not mistaken, so how can that work when one type of enemy fucks demos up? I know, that seems like an incredibly huge oversight. I'm wondering if it got fixed in source ports, but according to Decino it was never fixed in the final id Software release of the game. Maybe speed runners just make killing or avoiding revenants a priority, or there's some kind of workaround for getting the demo to start on a particular game tick to make sure it doesn't desync; I don't know.
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Jun 7, 2020 13:21
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 Hiatus averted! To celebrate(?), let's explore Doom II's pre-nostalgia secret level.
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Jun 12, 2020 20:12
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The Commander Keen thing is because by then Tom Hall had been fired and Adrian Carmack (ID's lead artist) loathed Commander Keen, so wanted to kill the character as much and as bloodily as possible. It's a lovely piece of mean-spirited posturing and was, of course, the best thing ever to edgy 90s teens.
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Jun 12, 2020 21:12
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The secret levels really show how far Id has moved in FPS development between Wolf3D and Doom, but there's one change to them that is actually an engine limitation. Turns out there actually is a thing Wolfenstein could do that Doom can't: horizontal sector movement. Also note that doors that would open sideways in Wolf now move upwards, Doom style. e: I always thought Grosse was also a Wolfenstein copy-paste - the final level of episode one? anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Jun 13, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 21:56
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anilEhilated posted:e: I always thought Grosse was also a Wolfenstein copy-paste - the final level of episode one? Yeah, it's based on that level, and named after the Wolfenstein boss you fight in it, Hans Grosse. I think some of the versions that removed Nazi imagery also just completely removed the two secret levels, so the secret exit functions just like the normal one.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:39
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Loxbourne posted:The Commander Keen thing is because by then Tom Hall had been fired and Adrian Carmack (ID's lead artist) loathed Commander Keen, so wanted to kill the character as much and as bloodily as possible. Seems like Adrian and John Carmack both were kinda assholes back in the day. I wonder if that still stands. I mean, at least John Romero chilled the gently caress out, you know? Relevant quote from Civvie 11, after mentioning John Carmack once broke into a school with thermite to steal a computer: "There is a much darker timeline where he kills us all."
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Jun 12, 2020 23:57
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KeiraWalker posted:Seems like Adrian and John Carmack both were kinda assholes back in the day. I wonder if that still stands. I mean, at least John Romero chilled the gently caress out, you know? The real fun part of that story is John Carmack got sent to juvvie for that incident, and his psych evaluation described him as “a brain on legs”.
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Jun 13, 2020 00:30
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ThornBrain posted:
As a German speaker, I can safely say that 'Mein Leben!', in the context of getting mortally wounded, is not a phrase I've ever heard outside of Wolfenstein  I can also safely say that playing Wolfenstein 3D as a German speaker is extremely hilarious.By the way, some members of the Doom community took it upon themselves to expand upon the idea of 'Wolfenstein in the Doom engine'. The most impressive example is definitely WolfenDoom: Blade of Agony, itself a spiritual successor to the much earlier WolfenDoom series. Wolfenstein 3D itself also still has an active modding community.
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Jun 13, 2020 01:18
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anilEhilated posted:Also note that doors that would open sideways in Wolf now move upwards, Doom style. I remember reading that there's some code leftover in the Doom engine from them trying to replicate sideways-moving sectors like the Wolf3D doors, but they never got around to finishing it. Nowadays it's possible in Hexen's version of the engine with polyobjects, which thanks to source ports are usable in Doom. Map 32 is funny to me because when I was real young I had the Win95 version of the game, which came with its own launcher that let you set the difficulty and start on specific maps and other stuff. I remember I'd always start myself on Map 32 with no enemies, expecting it to be the last level because it was the last numbered one, then being extremely confused whenever I'd complete it and it would take me back to Map 16. EDIT: Oh, something else I just remembered. Map 31's music is actually from Spear of Destiny, specifically the theme for the last level where (spoilers for a nearly thirty year old game) after you've regained the eponymous Spear, you basically get sent to Hell to fight an "Angel of Death" and prove your worthiness to carry the Spear. I read once that Bobby Prince, when composing the game's music, wanted the final boss's music to be something that truly sold the idea of an ultimate evil being, hence the track name "Evil Incarnate". His inspiration was renting a movie about Josef Mengele and watching it until he was totally infuriated thinking about the kinds of things the real Nazis did. Kadorhal fucked around with this message at 07:10 on Jun 14, 2020 |
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Jun 13, 2020 01:55
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Carpator Diei posted:As a German speaker, I can safely say that 'Mein Leben!', in the context of getting mortally wounded, is not a phrase I've ever heard outside of Wolfenstein I actually made a Doom 2 WAD replacing Map 31 and 32 with recreations of Map's 4 and 18 from Spear of Destiny, the sequel to Wolfenstein 3d. (Map 4 had a secret exit to the first secret floor (19), and Map 18 was the final boss floor of the castle). Honestly those recreations were probably a too faithful in design to the original to actually be fun, so I kinda missed the whole point.
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Jun 14, 2020 13:52
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:Honestly those recreations were probably a too faithful in design to the original to actually be fun, so I kinda missed the whole point. Well, that seems to be the case with quite a of those Wolfenstein-in-Doom mods, so you're not the only one who missed the point It's a rather interesting point, though: Aside from obvious things like horizontal sector movement, Wolfenstein 3D has a completely different gameplay style than Doom, with even more frantic movement and an almost exclusive emphasis on hitscan combat in relatively cramped spaces while both the player and the enemies have very little health. Therefore, thinking of it as Doom 0.5 and simply copying its general style of level layout into Doom while leaving Doom's gameplay intact tends to result in annoying bland levels filled with reskinned Shotgunners and Chaingunners.
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Jun 14, 2020 18:36
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One thing to remember about the Wolf3D secret levels is that Wolfenstein 3D came out in 92, Doom in 93, and Doom II in 94. This wasn't a case of "remember that thing from years ago" nostalgia, but a blatant "Look upon our works!" statement.
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Jun 15, 2020 09:37
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Hence why I call it "pre"-nostalgia - they got in early on it before nostalgia was even a major force in gaming, though it was always in other media. They prepped us to get nostalgic now in 2020 for a game that was only a couple years old by that point.
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Jun 15, 2020 17:39
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ThornBrain posted:Hence why I call it "pre"-nostalgia - they got in early on it before nostalgia was even a major force in gaming, though it was always in other media. They prepped us to get nostalgic now in 2020 for a game that was only a couple years old by that point. It wouldn't be the first time id tried to provoke nostalgia with a level referencing an older game. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGbJ9WzUOBc
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Jun 15, 2020 23:22
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:It wouldn't be the first time id tried to provoke nostalgia with a level referencing an older game. That level is also a good example of what I said about Wolfenstein 3D having a different gameplay style than Doom: The high running speed and complete lack of inertia or height differences allow for a very peculiar sort of movement that combines rather nicely with the powerful weapons and low-health enemies. Or take this level, as an example of somewhat more advanced level design in the Wolf3D engine – something like that would be an utter nightmare in Doom, but Wolf3D's gameplay is pretty much made for levels like that. Sorry for harping on about this, I just think it's fascinating that even in a case like this where a new engine is pretty much a straight improvement over its predecessor by almost every metric, a game of the same genre made in the older engine might still offer a sort of gameplay that the newer one is pretty much incapable of.
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Jun 16, 2020 00:03
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Stabbey_the_Clown posted:It wouldn't be the first time id tried to provoke nostalgia with a level referencing an older game. I've been playing through Wolf3D the past couple of days and this is one of the least fun secret levels in the original six episodes. It's kind of impressive just how little fun it is running through a giant Pac-Man maze away from enemies that instagib you if you touch them. Edit: ^^ As a good point of that, there's an entire game using the Wolf3D engine that came out shortly before Doom 2! https://youtu.be/gpqPBku8YvQ DoubleNegative fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jun 16, 2020 |
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Jun 16, 2020 01:04
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The Wolf3D versus Doom engine comparisons interest me because of how people got to see that basically in real-time back in the day - a bunch of other developers licensed the Wolf3D engine for their own shooters, and were stuck with several of its more outdated and unnecessary mechanics, like the points and lives systems that only existed because video games had points and lives (if you were an old fart who hadn't touched one since Pac-Man, at least), only to come out right around the same time id themselves immediately blew it out of the water with Doom's larger and more varied environments, more weapons with more variety than just shooting faster than the previous one, and a metric ton of enemy types to cut through with them. It's also interesting how that situation didn't repeat itself with the Doom engine, partly because it took longer for id to raise the bar again with another new engine, but also because, to my knowledge, a lot of developers trying to ride their coattails didn't license the existing engine - instead they went for even newer ones that could do things Doom's engine couldn't, like Ken Silverman's Build engine. I'd like to imagine that worked out for the better, since while Duke 3D only came out a couple months before Quake it didn't get completely overshadowed by it, thanks to unique touches like a protagonist who actually talked or the sheer interactivity of the levels. For what it's worth, I owned Duke 3D since right around when it came out and regularly heard people talking about it even before Duke Nukem Forever's development became a meme, while I'd never so much as heard of Rise of the Triad until maybe 2008 or so.
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Jun 16, 2020 05:40
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Kadorhal posted:It's also interesting how that situation didn't repeat itself with the Doom engine, partly because it took longer for id to raise the bar again with another new engine, Not so much - Quake was 1996, so only two years after Doom II, a year after the Ultimate Doom rerelease, the same year that Final Doom dropped to big success, and a year before Doom 64 hit. ID was still pumping out paradigm-shifting games at breakneck speed.
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Jun 16, 2020 07:09
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Gnoman posted:Not so much - Quake was 1996, so only two years after Doom II, a year after the Ultimate Doom rerelease, the same year that Final Doom dropped to big success, and a year before Doom 64 hit. ID was still pumping out paradigm-shifting games at breakneck speed. I was speaking more specifically about creating a new engine entirely (and, technically, Final Doom and Doom 64 were entirely different groups from id), but I see what you mean. Maybe that's why everyone else was pushing so hard to do things Doom couldn't.
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Jun 16, 2020 08:41
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Kadorhal posted:The Wolf3D versus Doom engine comparisons interest me because of how people got to see that basically in real-time back in the day - a bunch of other developers licensed the Wolf3D engine for their own shooters, and were stuck with several of its more outdated and unnecessary mechanics, like the points and lives systems that only existed because video games had points and lives (if you were an old fart who hadn't touched one since Pac-Man, at least), only to come out right around the same time id themselves immediately blew it out of the water with Doom's larger and more varied environments, more weapons with more variety than just shooting faster than the previous one, and a metric ton of enemy types to cut through with them. Then in modern times we've got people making brand new games in the Build engine for the hell of it, but I don't see anyone giving the Doom engine the same treatment. ...Okay, okay--yes, that is probably mostly because fans have already been doing it since id released the source code 23 years ago. Anyway, I just keep hearing Civvie 11 in my head, re: Ion Fury. "This is either Build engine jank or willful exploitation of Build engine jank."
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Jun 16, 2020 12:39
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anilEhilated posted:I still think there is one more enemy in the game that is worse (admittedly, mostly due to usage in modern WADs), but yeah, Pain Elementals are very, very aptly named. I've never heard this confirmed, but back when people used the Doom executable hacked editor (Dehacked!) to alter monster behavior, somebody complained to John Carmack that they couldn't make a cacodemon reliably shoot lost souls. He claimed it couldn't really be hacked around. Doom II has pain elementals. Somebody accidentally inspired them.
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Jun 16, 2020 21:01
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Hasturtium posted:I've never heard this confirmed, but back when people used the Doom executable hacked editor (Dehacked!) to alter monster behavior, somebody complained to John Carmack that they couldn't make a cacodemon reliably shoot lost souls. He claimed it couldn't really be hacked around. Can't confirm (or refute) the bit about Carmack, but one of two things happens if you try to make a Cacodemon (or any other monster) shoot Lost Souls: Either you don't set the "missile" flag on the Lost Soul and it dies as soon as it spawns, or you do set the "missile" flag and it's hurled helplessly in the direction it was fired until it hits something and then it dies.  Pain Elementals work because they don't shoot a missile, they have a unique ability that just spawns a particular Thing (ie. the Lost Soul).
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Jun 17, 2020 04:51
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Something else to note about Lost Souls is that with v1.666 of Doom and the original version of Doom II, Lost Souls were removed from the kill percentage count because of the way that Pain Elementals worked. However, console ports of the day - even of Doom II - keep tracking Lost Souls in the kill percentage, because they're based on older code than that - the Jaguar port was compiled from v1.2, and the other ports were based off of that.
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Jun 17, 2020 08:18
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 Us suburbanites, always gotta dodge that lava.
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Jun 19, 2020 20:00
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I always conflate the Tenements level with one from much later in the game. They both have the same feel.
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Jun 20, 2020 08:38
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DoubleNegative posted:I always conflate the Tenements level with one from much later in the game. They both have the same feel.
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Jun 20, 2020 11:03
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There's some new neural-uspcale-like face depixelizer software and some people did the obvious thing with it: https://twitter.com/h_bash/status/1274262975109410816 https://twitter.com/jonathanfly/status/1274277258002300928
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Jun 20, 2020 19:59
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Carpator Diei posted:There's some new neural-uspcale-like face depixelizer software and some people did the obvious thing with it: Someone in the thread pointed out that Doom Guy's face is actually not supposed to be that wide. Due to some weirdness with the game's resolution (that I can't remember off-hand) the sprites actually get squished horizontally.
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Jun 21, 2020 04:10
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Tiggum posted:Someone in the thread pointed out that Doom Guy's face is actually not supposed to be that wide. Due to some weirdness with the game's resolution (that I can't remember off-hand) the sprites actually get squished horizontally. Doom originally ran in VGA mode 320x200, meant to run on period CRTs with a vertical aspect ratio stretched by 20%. The reason for this is tied to VRAM consumption in the dawn of the VGA spec, where four buffers at 64KB each were necessary to store 320x200 pixels at 8-bit color. A proper aspect ratio of 320x240 would have needed 300KB of VRAM which would have been a headache for hardware designers. Game art of the time compensated for this by being squat, as it was intended to be stretched. Without that stretch, 320x200 is effectively a 16:10 aspect ratio instead of 4:3.
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Jun 21, 2020 04:39
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The two forearm bones are the radius and ulna. Jacob's "tibula" is (probably) a combination of tibia and fibula, two bones in the lower leg.
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Jun 21, 2020 12:17
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I know you said you were skipping over doom 3 in the last thread but, I hope you reconsider. Its a different beast from the rest sure, but its still an important part of doom.
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Jun 24, 2020 18:36
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I agree. Especially for us that only played it once and want to reassess. Doom is Doom.
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Jun 24, 2020 19:54
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Jacob's only skipping it because he wouldn't have a lot to say about it, and that's a death knell for an LP from us. Someone else more attuned to the game would have to do it to do the game justice. Also obviously this or any future LPs won't be continuing here on SA while Lowtax still owns it, so if you want to keep up-to-date, just subscribe to the YouTube channel and hope YouTube actually tells you when new videos go up, or join my Discord where we post all our videos and streams.
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Jun 24, 2020 20:23
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ThornBrain posted:Also obviously this or any future LPs won't be continuing here on SA while Lowtax still owns it, so if you want to keep up-to-date, just subscribe to the YouTube channel and hope YouTube actually tells you when new videos go up, or join my Discord where we post all our videos and streams. Word.
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Jun 24, 2020 20:32
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Now that Lowtax is gone, I at minimum feel okay with posting the remaining updates and concluding the thread. I'm still dubious about posting new LPs here, but I'll consider it.     For those who weren't also following the Sekiro thread: We do also have LPs that I chose not to post here and are too far along to post now: Graveyard Keeper, with Skippy Granola and YamiNoSenshi - Jet Force Gemini, with Jacob - and Jacob's LP of Doom 64 with me and TorpidTypist. I may post Tony Hawk's Underground if Sally or Fedule says it's okay, since only two parts are up so far.
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Oct 10, 2020 04:40
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Alright, now the sequel thread of Doom 64 is up, along with threads for Tony Hawk's Underground, Jet Force Gemini, and Graveyard Keeper. Doom 2016 isn't far off either.
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Oct 11, 2020 02:51
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