sex work is work

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LittleBlackCloud: Mar 5, 2007; xXI love Plum JuiceXx

Sex work is work. And the Cool Zone is the cool zone. So talk about sex work and how you think it's super problematic here.

As in all jobs some people hate those they do work for, while others do not.

It's fine to be critical of things, but most people I've seen on this forum don't seem to know what they are talking about. I doubt any of you have read anything Dworkin or Mckinnon wrote on sex negativity (which is a shame because Intercourses kind of rules; I've read like a few pages of mckinnon and she seems less cool).

When you say something like sex work or pornography perpetuates rape culture, you speak of it as if it were merely a part of the society in which we live. However, it's more accurate to describe our entire society as a "rape culture." It's built on unfair exchanges, exploitation, and coercive power dynamics. Our sexual relations do not exist outside of society. When you gently caress someone, you do not leave your socio-economic or racial background on the floor with your clothes, nor can you separate gender dynamics from the equation of intercourse. This is especially true if you look a few decades back.

If you are opposed to it, sex work is then, at its most ideal, simply a bit too honest about the situation for your liking, perhaps? It's hard work to acknowledge power differentials between yourself and and you care about? Maybe you're just Prudes?

here's some articles if you want to educate yourselves:

https://www.teenvogue.com/story/why-sex-work-is-real-work

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/standard-deviations/201807/why-fostasesta-harms-those-it-supposedly-serves

https://medium.com/pulpmag/nordic-model-the-ongoing-criminalization-of-sex-workers-in-northern-europe-c1df02ba94ae

here's a book rec'd by a sex worker: https://www.versobooks.com/books/1568-playing-the-whore

Here are some more articles, rec'd by said sw:

https://www.opensocietyfoundations....eT_P6basrpBveFc

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/22/7053...k7upt6MR4ejYb8Y

http://titsandsass.com/the-right-to-survive-the-case-of-alisha-walker/?fbclid=IwAR2Lr3HJtRrv6XWJrp358BJ2f6pLjcLzerX03ZVKdSuasc-B07rug5urkAQ

LittleBlackCloud has issued a correction as of 19:26 on Jun 5, 2020

# ? Jun 5, 2020 18:25

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# ? May 2, 2024 15:14

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Yeah, the coercion aspect was not a can of worms I wanted to open in the Cool Zone, because economic coercion is not the only form of coercion and the establishment of a transaction isn't the only reason people have sex they don't really want, and if you want to take coercion as a reason to attack sex work, well boy do I have a lot of things to tell you about the reasons people have lovely sex they don't want even when money isn't involved lmao

It feels like a big L to people to say "sex work is work" period for some reason, but that's just spooky feelings people have about the act itself from external cultural forces imo

Barring conditions of physical duress or imminent threats of violence (rather than the passive threats of violence we all live with every day as non-sex workers) that create slave conditions, if someone chooses to make their way through life with sex work, then protect them, give them healthcare, benefits, and prosecute rapists/assaults and then gently caress off

smarxist has issued a correction as of 18:54 on Jun 5, 2020

# ? Jun 5, 2020 18:50

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Hey I'm one of the rude dudes from Cool Zone and I'm just going to drop this article here which is the argument I was making in piecemeal over there anyway:

quote:

On Sex Work and the Communist Mode of Production

By Qamar B. and Amber B.

Sex work will not continue under communism. This may be obvious to many of our readers, however it has been a continued source of controversy, to such the degree that we find it requires more investigation. While it is inevitable that sex work will, in some ways, regrettably continue into the initial phases of the socialist transition pending its abolition, it is absurd to say that it would continue to exist into the late stages of socialism, and eventual communism. However before we elaborate on this, it is important to first understand commodification as it relates to sex and labor. This, as Marxists, necessarily colors our understanding of the issue.

Commodities and Sexuality

In the capitalist mode of production, we understand a commodity as Marx described it as consisting of both an exchange-value and use-value: use-value being the quality of the commodity which makes it desirable, whether it be for necessity or simple desire; exchange value being the quality of a commodity which tells us the degree that that it can be exchanged for other commodities. This relates directly to the Marxist understanding of labor and labor-power, where labor is the physical act of working, and labor-power is the capability to work. The latter being sold as a commodity on the market for a wage

The various types of concrete labor is incredibly expansive in the capitalist mode of production, as nearly all human activity can be commodified as labor power for one purpose or another. Sex, of course, is no exception to this rule. Though what really creates sex and sexuality as such a useful commodity is, of course, the patriarchal aspect to capitalism. After all, women have been the primary laborers in sex work throughout the history of bourgeois society. Female sexuality, as it exists in patriarchy, is imagined in a relationship to men that only intensifies its existence as a kind of commodity. Women exist materially in a state of sexual subjugation to men, so the development of the sex industry in capitalist society follows naturally.

Therefore when discussing sex work under the capitalist system, of course we are talking about a labor issue which is inherently bound up in the specificities of gender. It is not just an �intersection� but a codevelopment in the ideological systems of capitalism and patriarchy which have come to reinforce each other�s existence. So when analyzing sex work, we understand that it exists as an outgrowth of the logics of class and gender. Therefore we know full well that sex as it relates to labor is not a question of �morality,� but a question of power. Sex work is legitimate work in the sense that it relies on the commodification of sex and sexuality, whose use-values are in part realized and further developed by a patriarchal view of women�s sexuality. However, just because sexuality is commodified for exchange, does not mean that it should be.

Communism or Socialized Patriarchy?

Labor under capitalism can be any kind of human activity that has been commodified, and is understood with an emphasis on the division between productive and unproductive labor. Productive labor is that which is exploited for surplus value, while unproductive labor in the form of �services� and circulation of capital which both utilizes, and is remunerated by, value generated by productive labor. What sex work represents is any kind of sexual service carried out as a result of exchange, whether it be for a wage or compensated contractually. It is not utilized as a stepping-stone to production, but as an economic manifestation of patriarchal ideology. Under socialism and communism could such an economic relationship continue to exist?

So long as patriarchal ideas and bourgeois economics exist it can, certainly. As long as exchange relations are still utilized, and people must work to eat, there will be room for such practices. However simply because it exists does not mean we should be at peace with it or the foundations which make it possible. The commodification of human intimacy results in the same objectifying practices which are present in all forms of labor: the reduction of human beings to their use-values. For the productive laborer, that means the reduction of their humanity to their hands, strength, or dexterity which proves useful in the production of commodities; for the service worker it means a reduction to their servile capacity; and for a sex worker, it of course means the reduction of themselves to their sexuality.

There is no more shame in being a sex worker than there is in being employed in any other sector, as conditions of capitalist society demands we all sell our labor in one form or another to survive. However the reduction of sexuality to a commodity is something inextricably tied to the codevelopment of patriarchy and bourgeois exchange relations. Production will inevitably continue after the abolition of exchange and economic exploitation, however there is no justification for the continued commodification of human sexuality or emotional service. The basis sex work relies on this dual relation: it economically nurtures the idea of sexuality as being something to which a group of people are entitled based on their gender or their finances, and it is a duty to another group based on their gender or their finances. In the patriarchal system, there is a myriad of reasons why access to the sexuality of gender oppressed people is considered a right of the entitled stratum, and why they are obligated in such a staggering number of ways to comply.

The economic aspect, that of exchange, is dependent on the fact that everyone must participate in the bourgeois economic system. They must sell their labor, or shift about their existing finances built from the labor of others, in order to obtain that which they need to survive. Why would this relation continue through the socialist transition toward communism? In the communist mode of production there is no such commodification or exchange for commodities. In fact, there are no commodities whatsoever. The �exchange value� which is so vital to the creation of a commodity, is no longer present. Instead we have a circulation and utilization of use-values, and all production and labor is undertaken freely for the creation and distribution of those use-values. Where would sex and sexuality fit into this construction? Would there still be a need for sex as a form of social labor which a group of people would be inclined to fulfill?

By now, you are probably seeing the issue with this train of thought. The fact is that the �use-value� of sex is created by a patriarchal view of sexuality: of entitlement to sex on one hand, and necessarily a kind of duty to submit it on the other. How could such a dichotomy exist in communism without the existence of patriarchy, or at least a new development in patriarchy? Sure, so far patriarchy has developed alongside exchange and class society in some form, however the belief that it cannot continue after the abolition of exchange lacks any basis. Sex work could continue after exchange, however it would require the continuation of an antagonistic patriarchal contradiction. A contradiction which suggests an obligatory sexual relationship between two groups of people would have to be defined in this new, exchangeless world.

This would be the preservation, in some way, of a gendered system. The only other alternative to a system relying on a sexual/intimate obligation provided as a duty to another group of entitled individuals, would be for it to follow an exchange relation. But how could this exchange relation be any more communist? The result remains the same. The continuation of sex work in any form requires the continuation of a system of exchange and/or patriarchy. It is by necessity a patriarchal system and qualified today on a system of exchange. It simply cannot continue to exist without this. Access to someone�s sexuality is not a right, and should not be guaranteed by any political institution or economic relationship.

Abolishing Sexual Obligation

If we can establish that sex work should be abolished, then we need to clarify how we think the relationship of obligational sexuality can be undone. First of all, to reiterate: sex work is as legitimate a kind of labor under capitalism as any other, and it is unacceptable to evoke animosities against sex workers on the basis of �morality.� There are no �respectable� ways to make money under capitalism, though there are certainly ways that are oppressive and exploitative. Sex work, however, is not one of them (at least not for those providing the service). So how do we propose to actually abolish this relation?

Just as any other oppressive contradiction, there is both the oppressed and the oppressor in this situation. Since this is a codevelopment of patriarchy and exchange, we can see there are the primary recipients of such a service, and there are�in many cases�the crooked bosses who oversee and profit, from a distance, off the gendered/money relationship. This is who should be targeted as the antagonists in the emancipation of sex workers and the abolition of sex work altogether. So long as it is necessary for their survival, sex workers should be able to defend themselves and control the terms of their continued labor. We must come to realize that the contradiction extends also to those who are ordering the continuation of these services.

There exists, outside the economic contradictions of class and capitalism, a profound obligation on the part of women to submit their sexuality to men. This antagonistic contradiction which exists between them is not purely economic, and that is part of what must be realized. When we say that exploitation and exchange must be abolished, we do not suggest that this must be done through the punishment of the oppressed classes. Furthermore, when we say that patriarchy must be abolished we do not believe this can or should be done through an attack on women who are subject to its relations. Yet, strangely enough, our position on the abolition of sex work is taken to mean that we believe it should be done at the expense of sex workers who, for the moment, depend on their own labor for their survival.

Such misconstructions of our position are a side-step from something that is very logical to communists. If an institution represents the collaborative development of two poisonous systems of oppression, we must destroy that institution. Sex work is such an institution, and is dependent entirely on the continuation of patriarchy and capitalist exchange. Without these two preconditions, human intimacy will no longer reduced to a money relation, nor will it be the object used to transform human beings into gendered beings whose rights and bodies are subject to the entitlement of others. At their very foundations, the governing logics of sex work are incompatible with the communist mode of production.

https://anti-imperialism.org/2017/02/07/on-sex-work-and-the-communist-mode-of-production/

# ? Jun 5, 2020 18:58

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Hey I'm one of the rude dudes from Cool Zone and I'm just going to drop this article here which is the argument I was making in piecemeal over there anyway:

https://anti-imperialism.org/2017/02/07/on-sex-work-and-the-communist-mode-of-production/

okay ignoring that this article is all theoretical preconfiguration, which is the dumbest possible thing you can engage in w/r/t to leftism, let me pose a Q to you, since you want to cite this ridiculous article:

We're in the abolished value exchange and commodity form post-rev utopia.

i'm some awkward dude that has that disease that makes me smell like rotten fish, and I want to gently caress

how do i gently caress?

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:01

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

or i'm just some person who doesn't like to socialize a lot, and when i'm done working at the commune hydroponics lab, i want to have raging sex with someone who will put their finger in my rear end without giving me a weird look

and i'm willing to trade some of my labor vouchers for this

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:03

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Sex is not a right.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:05

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

The point is that people are odd, and they have weird apetites, and they like to do things certain ways, that sometimes don't jibe well with others in ideal circumstances, or any circumstances

our brains are enormous because of social dynamics and basically nothing else, we've been growing these stupid hunks of meat so we can do 14th dimensional chess body language reading and comprehending, for a lot of people cultivating and exercising these personality quirks becomes essentially their personality

Thinking that you can eliminate something as old and pervasive as trading a sex act for some bit of value because you've abolished capitalism is so loving laughable and also not even really desirable or enforceable, in a truly free/liberated utopia, people should be able to have sex for whatever loving reasons they want, and they'll find weird reasons to have it even when you eliminate economic coercion and the patriarchy, so using the idealized future to apply critique of current material conditions and the way people navigate them is utterly shite and you may as well thump a bible.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:09

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Sex is not a right.

So if that person arranges a sex act with someone, trades some bit of value or labor to them, in whatever form it exists, what would / should the society do?

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:10

unlimited shrimp: Aug 30, 2008

I think it would be helpful to the conversation to differentiate between "sex positive" sex workers, and sex workers who are in such an abject situation that they are resorting to the the most mask-off self-commodification possible in order to survive. Privileging the discourse of the former over the latter is like using hippie organic farming communes to valorize the exploitation of migrant farm labor.

Anyway I'm dumb as poo poo on this topic so I look forward to learning & following along

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:10

Scrub-Niggurath: Nov 27, 2007

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Sex is not a right.

neither is food that tastes good but we still seek it out and crave it and consider it a cornerstone of the human experience

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:11

Impkins Patootie: Apr 20, 2017

LittleBlackCloud posted:

Sex work is work.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:12

coke: Jul 12, 2009

lol at 'ideals' being posted against the reality, yes we all would like to be living in an utopia too

we can look at NZ and see what can be done to protect the welfare of sex workers and general population

quote:

Prostitution Reform Act 2003

The Act replaced the previous legislation, including repealing the Massage Parlours Act, largely removing voluntary adult (age 18 and over) prostitution from the criminal law and replacing it with civil law at both national and local level. A distinction was made between voluntary and involuntary prostitution. It remains a crime to coerce someone to provide sexual services. Sex work is also prohibited for those on temporary visas, and immigration for and investment in sex work is prohibited. Contracts between provider and client were recognised, and providers have the right to refuse services. Contested contracts can be referred to the Disputes Tribunal. Advertising is banned, with the exception of print media, which is restricted. The Summary Offences Act remains in force in relation to soliciting, which may be classed as offensive behaviour.[18] The Criminal Records (Clean Slate) Act 2004 also allows sex workers to apply for previous convictions to be removed from the record. Sex work is recognised (but not promoted) as legitimate work by Work and Income New Zealand, who may not advertise vacancies in brothels or suggest people start sex work as a means of getting off a benefit. Now, workplace safety and health rules, developed in consultation with the prostitutes' collective, apply to sex work. Employment disputes can be referred to the Labour Inspectorate and Mediation Service. There is an obligation on employers and employees to practise and promote safe sexual practices.

quote:

Prohibitions on use in prostitution of persons under 18 years
20. No person may cause, assist, facilitate, or encourage a person under 18 years of age to provide commercial sexual services to any person.
21. No person may receive a payment or other reward that he or she knows, or ought reasonably to know, is derived, directly or indirectly, from commercial sexual services provided by a person under 18 years of age.
22. No person may contract for commercial sexual services from, or be client of, person under 18 years
(1) No person may enter into a contract or other arrangement under which a person under 18 years of age is to provide commercial sexual services to or for that person or another person.
(2) No person may receive commercial sexual services from a person under 18 years of age.
23. Every person who contravenes section 20, section 21, or section 22 commits an offense and is liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years.
(2) No person contravenes section 20 merely by providing legal advice, counselling, health advice, or any medical services to a person under 18 years of age.
(3) No person under 18 years of age may be charged as a party to an offense committed on or with that person against this section.

and the interesting thing was that because it was classified as legit work, they were able to receive government subsidy/payout during the covid19 shutdown too to ensure the effectiveness of the lockdown

coke posted:

well the government could step in and help everyone out to minimize death but we'd rather give all the money to the rich instead

in other news
https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/300014145/covid19-green-light-for-sex-industry-to-restart

quote:
During the lockdown, some sex workers applied for assistance under the wage subsidy scheme but there is a wariness about declaring being a sex worker inside a government system, in cases of issues arising such as custody of children and tax.

"Others were not worried about those matters at all and were pleased to receive the assistance."

Healy is expecting a busy time for sex workers. A common concern in many countries, including New Zealand, is that they are not working with enough clients. The recent shutdown may change this, she said.

"The number one thing they all say is it's not busy enough ...it's the universal complaint."
nice to see them recognizing sex workers as actual workers to provide regulation and protection instead of just ignoring them and hope they doesn't exist

i'd argue it's similar to prohibition back in the days, it's easy to provide so it will be almost impossible to shutdown so the best thing you can do is to regulate/protect the people

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:13

nikosoft: Dec 17, 2011; ghost in the shell, but somehow much worse; College Slice

You could have just looked in a mirror and chanted Pick's name three times, you didn't need to make a thread

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:13

LittleBlackCloud: Mar 5, 2007; xXI love Plum JuiceXx

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Hey I'm one of the rude dudes from Cool Zone and I'm just going to drop this article here which is the argument I was making in piecemeal over there anyway:

https://anti-imperialism.org/2017/02/07/on-sex-work-and-the-communist-mode-of-production/

This is either a total misframing of sex work or a naturalization of capitalism. Sex work is a pre-capitalist phenomenon. Sex Work could be performed as part of a barter exchange for something such as artisan goods, or as a service for public good. ie loving the disabled.

furthermore, saying "sex work will be abolished under communism" is not a valid critique of sex work under capitalism. We don't live in Communism.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:13

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

night danger posted:

I think it would be helpful to the conversation to differentiate between "sex positive" sex workers, and sex workers who are in such an abject situation that they are resorting to the the most mask-off self-commodification possible in order to survive. Privileging the discourse of the former over the latter is like using hippie organic farming communes to valorize the exploitation of migrant farm labor.

Anyway I'm dumb as poo poo on this topic so I look forward to learning & following along

the only differentiation to me that exists is what i said above about imminent physical violence or being bodily restrained and enslaved.

everyone has to do work they don't want to do to avoid abject conditions, like homelessness, prison, etc.

if we're starting from the premise that sex work is work, then we can't create a divide between the walmart cashier and the prostitute who works corners or backpages in dangerous situations. the latter's job is only more dangerous typically because of the criminality/morality bullshit society thrusts upon their activities.

i don't see any difference between a sex worker who works for themselves and isn't trafficked/enslaved and a freelance massage therapist, nor should anyone else imo :shrug:

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:14

LittleBlackCloud: Mar 5, 2007; xXI love Plum JuiceXx

smarxist posted:

you may as well thump a bible.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:15

coke: Jul 12, 2009

and for fucks sake that it's noted to be one of the oldest profession for a reason

they literally found brothels in the ruins of pompeii, almost 2000 years ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lupanar_(Pompeii)#Brothels

quote:

There have been 134 graffiti transcribed from the Lupanar at Pompeii. The presence of this graffiti served as one of the criteria for identifying the building as a brothel.[6]

Examples of graffiti from the Lupanar include:

Hic ego puellas multas futui ("Here I hosed many girls").[7]
Felix bene futuis ("Lucky guy, you gently caress well," a prostitute's blandishment to her client,[8] or "Lucky guy, you get a good gently caress"[9]).
Other examples can be traced to other locations in Pompeii. Persons of wealth generally did not visit brothels because of the availability of mistresses or slave concubines. The graffiti do tell stories, however. Various authors respond to each other's carvings in a sort of dialogue.[10]

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:20

LittleBlackCloud: Mar 5, 2007; xXI love Plum JuiceXx

night danger posted:

Anyway I'm dumb as poo poo on this topic so I look forward to learning & following along

I have added more articles to the OP

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:20

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

i think framing sex work exclusively as a manifestation of patriarchy is an old-fashioned kind of view. the article reminds me of a lot of second wave feminism stuff that is in retrospect very confined in its framework by the era it was written in - how does anything other than straight sex work fit into a framing that is predicated on men doing the objectification and women being objectified?

sex work seems essentially impossible to eliminate from society without some real totalitarian poo poo or literal star trek replicators with infinite energy budgets for everybody. in FALGSC you would see far fewer career sex workers for sure but unless exchange of goods and services between private persons is entirely prohibited casual sex work is not going to disappear

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:27

unlimited shrimp: Aug 30, 2008

smarxist posted:

the only differentiation to me that exists is what i said above about imminent physical violence or being bodily restrained and enslaved.

everyone has to do work they don't want to do to avoid abject conditions, like homelessness, prison, etc.

if we're starting from the premise that sex work is work, then we can't create a divide between the walmart cashier and the prostitute who works corners or backpages in dangerous situations. the latter's job is only more dangerous typically because of the criminality/morality bullshit society thrusts upon their activities.

i don't see any difference between a sex worker who works for themselves and isn't trafficked/enslaved and a freelance massage therapist, nor should anyone else imo

My bad, I guess I'm starting from the premise of "sex work is work" and looking forward to the political demands that might flow from a bougie, media-savvy class of sex worker versus a class who is working as stereotypical street prostitutes, within the context of our actually-existing system.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that, once the basic hurdle of the legitimacy of sex work is surmounted, then the former and latter may still have very different ideas about what protections or regulations are needed, and what the legitimate concerns are. We see this in every other industry.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:28

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

smarxist posted:

i don't see any difference between a sex worker who works for themselves and isn't trafficked/enslaved and a freelance massage therapist, nor should anyone else imo

how many sex workers do you think are doing it voluntarily vs. how many are enslaved

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:30

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

night danger posted:

looking forward to the political demands that might flow from a bougie, media-savvy class of sex worker

i imagine the demands would look exactly the same as any other bougie media savvy person. pod save america basically.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:33

LittleBlackCloud: Mar 5, 2007; xXI love Plum JuiceXx

gh0stpinballa posted:

how many sex workers do you think are doing it voluntarily vs. how many are enslaved

Abolition of human trafficking is not abolition of sex work. So this doesn't matter. Especially since as I mentioned, coercion in sex is not cut and dry.

Decriminalization of sex work would aid in the prosecution and/or elimination of human traffickers.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:36

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

gh0stpinballa posted:

how many sex workers do you think are doing it voluntarily vs. how many are enslaved

how many women right now are in lovely relationships with crap dudes they still gently caress because they can't afford to live alone

the distinction you're trying to draw is arbitrary if my position is to liberate everyone and leave them the gently caress alone to do w/e they want (even if that includes having sex with someone not for their own pleasure/procreation. why would they want to do that? who cares gently caress off).

nobody should be enslaved
nobody should be punished for having sex for any reason they want to if they're nominally free

if you want to argue agency and what it means to actually be free in the current material conditions and/or post rev, we're gonna have a really long philosophical detour

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:36

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

smarxist posted:

Thinking that you can eliminate something as old and pervasive as trading a sex act for some bit of value because you've abolished capitalism is so loving laughable and also not even really desirable or enforceable, in a truly free/liberated utopia, people should be able to have sex for whatever loving reasons they want, and they'll find weird reasons to have it even when you eliminate economic coercion and the patriarchy, so using the idealized future to apply critique of current material conditions and the way people navigate them is utterly shite and you may as well thump a bible.

You think people will have sex with people they wouldn't have otherwise despite the fact that their housing, food, healthcare, education, and employment is guaranteed?

Capitalism is a contemporary mode of class society. The article would be improved by replacing all mentions of it with class society. Prostitution exists in class society because there is a dominating class. Because housing, food, healthcare, education, and employment are not guaranteed.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:40

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Perry Mason Jar posted:

You think people will have sex with people they wouldn't have otherwise despite the fact that their housing, food, healthcare, education, and employment is guaranteed?

Yes. and I'd argue that it's so obvious they would that the burden of proof is on you to prove they wouldn't.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:41

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Why?

Edit (replying to stealth edit): okay, because if I don't want to have sex with somebody them offering money I don't need is in no way an incentive to have sex with them. What the gently caress??

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:41

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

smarxist posted:

how many women right now are in lovely relationships with crap dudes they still gently caress because they can't afford to live alone

the distinction you're trying to draw is arbitrary

there is not an arbritrary distinction between a woman who has a boyfriend who forgets her birthday and has to stay with him to pay rent vs. a woman who has been kidnapped, trafficked, beaten, raped, and forced on penalty of death to blow johns in back alleys. there is a very big difference between the two. and i literally just want to know how many sex workers you think are doing it for the good vibes vs how many are doing it because they're being coerced.

i haven't actually said i am against sex work i just find the way its discussed by people like yourself who are really into it to be very cavalier and weird. like there is a matrix of factors to be carefully talked thru and dealt with before you just flick a switch and make it legal.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:46

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

In the current material conditions, sex work is mostly economical in nature, but the economical superstructure surrounding it is built on biological imperative, and our weird human brains

To think that there's going to be some fabulous equilibrium in a post-rev society where everyone has as much sex as they want with all their favorite quirks included is delusional, so where does that leave us? You'd have an unmet need and people willing to trade SOMETHING for that need to be met, and you'd have people who have what they want and are willing to accept that SOMETHING to do the act, because they want the SOMETHING or because its fun for them to have a bit of transactional sex, or it a thrill, they get off on it, whatever that something is, a labor voucher, a chocolate ration, some loving yard work, i guarantee you it will exists in the post rev world.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:47

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Dude if I want a loving chocolate bar and a dude told me to suck his dick first I'd go ask someone else for the loving chocolate bar. What the hell??

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:48

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

LittleBlackCloud posted:

Abolition of human trafficking is not abolition of sex work. So this doesn't matter. Especially since as I mentioned, coercion in sex is not cut and dry.

Decriminalization of sex work would aid in the prosecution and/or elimination of human traffickers.

how many sex workers are doing it voluntarily and how many are forced into it by scumbag pimps/addiction/traffickers. this is an important question that helps us move closer to a just set of decriminalisation and justice policies.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:48

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Perry Mason Jar posted:

You think people will have sex with people they wouldn't have otherwise despite the fact that their housing, food, healthcare, education, and employment is guaranteed?

Capitalism is a contemporary mode of class society. The article would be improved by replacing all mentions of it with class society. Prostitution exists in class society because there is a dominating class. Because housing, food, healthcare, education, and employment are not guaranteed.

when all basic needs are fulfilled, people seek luxury needs. this is why i say that you'd have to have an infinite energy star trek replicator to actually eliminate sex work. well the holodeck probably cuts down on it too if you're going to extend out to that kind of technology

absent effectively infinite abundance of goods, unless private exchange of goods and services is literally entirely prohibited, there will still be people that make the calculation that

A. I want something but don't have the (money/labor vouchers/energy credits/etc.) to obtain it

B. sex work is the least objectionable form of work for me, because i'm down to gently caress and i'm confident i can screen clients to find someone i'm okay with

C. so i'm gonna post on the space facebook that i'll suck your dick for 20 credits

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:50

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

gh0stpinballa posted:

how many sex workers are doing it voluntarily and how many are forced into it by scumbag pimps/addiction/traffickers. this is an important question that helps us move closer to a just set of decriminalisation and justice policies.

why not just cite sourced statistics instead of trying to activate some trap card? i wouldn't really know before i googled it either.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:50

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Jazerus posted:

when all basic needs are fulfilled, people seek luxury needs. this is why i say that you'd have to have an infinite energy star trek replicator to actually eliminate sex work. well the holodeck probably cuts down on it too if you're going to extend out to that kind of technology

unless private exchange of goods and services is literally entirely prohibited, there will still be people that make the calculation that

A. I want something but don't have the (money/labor vouchers/energy credits/etc.) to obtain it

B. sex work is the least objectionable form of work for me, because i'm down to gently caress and i'm confident i can screen clients to find someone i'm okay with

C. so i'm gonna post on the space facebook that i'll suck your dick for 20 credits

I already responded to this, if you'd like to respond to my response please do because smarxist skipped it.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:52

Jazerus: May 24, 2011

Perry Mason Jar posted:

I already responded to this, if you'd like to respond to my response please do because smarxist skipped it.

which post is the response in question?

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:54

Victory Position: Mar 16, 2004

before we go any further, how horny and/or unhorny are you

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:54

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Victory Position posted:

before we go any further, how horny and/or unhorny are you

i'm volcel, I don't even have a dog in this fight, sex is fake :colbert:

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:54

gh0stpinballa: Mar 5, 2019

smarxist posted:

why not just cite sourced statistics instead of trying to activate some trap card? i wouldn't really know before i googled it either.

its not a trap card, im not trying to fight im just interested in the different opinions itt. i think establishing a baseline number of voluntary/involuntary then helps us talk thru things like reparations for freed slaves, how we organize sex workers under a legal framework, what we do about the pimps who are out of a job etc etc.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:55

Perry Mason Jar: Feb 24, 2006; "Della? Take a lid"

Jazerus posted:

which post is the response in question?

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Dude if I want a loving chocolate bar and a dude told me to suck his dick first I'd go ask someone else for the loving chocolate bar. What the hell??

If someone wants me to suck their dick for a chocolate I'll find another way to get a chocolate. Anyone who doesn't (who has ample means to, because all their needs are met) was already willing to have sex with that person, much like how your wife will gently caress you if you do the dishes - I don't object to that but it's also not prostitution.

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:55

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# ? May 2, 2024 15:14

smarxist: Jul 26, 2018; by Fluffdaddy

Perry Mason Jar posted:

Dude if I want a loving chocolate bar and a dude told me to suck his dick first I'd go ask someone else for the loving chocolate bar. What the hell??

so in your post-rev future, either:

A) everyone is having all the sex they want to have period

or

B) there's still shortfall disparity in sex, but the the people who aren't getting what they want are in no way able to find it on offer from others who engage in a transaction with them for any reason?

do you see how ridiculous either of these is?

# ? Jun 5, 2020 19:57

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