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personally i think we should just kill the pimps btw, they're even bigger parasites than landlords (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 5, 2020 19:57
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gh0stpinballa posted:what we do about the pimps who are out of a job etc etc.  well i'm glad you clarified, because yes we should just kill them. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 5, 2020 19:59
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smarxist posted:so in your post-rev future, either: (B) is just reframing what you already said, which I already responded to. No, you won't be able to get someone to perform your kink for you for a chocolate bar, they have many other ways to get the chocolate bar. Including just having it handed to them by people who don't like chocolate and who aren't asking you to gently caress them first.
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Jun 5, 2020 19:59
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Perry Mason Jar posted:(B) is just reframing what you already said, which I already responded to. No, you won't be able to get someone to perform your kink for you for a chocolate bar, they have many other ways to get the chocolate bar. you're zeroing in on the chocolate bar because it's an easy out, just get over your weird sex poo poo dude.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:00
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You haven't responded to my argument at all dude. I'm zeroing in on trying to get you to defend your goddamn position my guy.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:01
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Perry Mason Jar posted:If someone wants me to suck their dick for a chocolate I'll find another way to get a chocolate. Anyone who doesn't (who has ample means to, because all their needs are met) was already willing to have sex with that person, much like how your wife will gently caress you if you do the dishes - I don't object to that but it's also not prostitution. referring to my three-step process for deciding to be a space sex worker: quote:A. I want something but don't have the (money/labor vouchers/energy credits/etc.) to obtain it you, personally, stop thinking about it at B. it's not the least objectionable form of work for you, you'd rather go do a shift down at the robot factory. and that's fine - in fact, it's almost certainly the majority opinion in any realistic near-future human society. sex work in a society of abundance but not infinite abundance, then, is essentially saying "hey, i wanna have sex, but my time has value so unless i'm romantically involved with you i'd like to be compensated. if you're down for that, contact me and we'll talk." you may not want to be on either side of that transaction - i wouldn't either - but absolutely there will be willing people on both sides of such an offer.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:05
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Here's my answer to what sex and human relations would look like under communism: haha holy poo poo who loving knows. Sex and sex work is only partially about the act and we'd see such a radical change in society if we lived in a fully communist society that I don't think we can properly predict at all what things would be like. Sex work as economic coercion would go away. Would something like sex work still exist? Maybe, who loving knows. A world that is less alienating and dehumanizing will radically change sexuality and while we can imagine what that looks like there are few things we can be certain of because we're talking about something that doesn't exist and if it did exist would be a wild restructuring of how we currently live.
Gumball Gumption has issued a correction as of 20:22 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 20:06
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you haven't made an argument, your position is that "two people engaging in a transactional sexual act just won't exist in a post-rev society because REASONS" if you acknowledge that there's still going to be a disparity in the sex that's wanted vs what's available, and you acknowledge that in some way we'll be living in a society that still abides by physical laws of nature and thus entropy, and thus has some form of strenuous labor, or boring labor, or constrained resources in some regard or whatEVER, if it's possible for someone to have something you want that saves you time/effort/boredom that isn't INFINITELY available, which can be anything, then those people will find each other and make a deal
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Jun 5, 2020 20:07
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Gumball Gumption posted:Here's my answer to what sex and human relations would look like under communism: haha holy poo poo who loving knows. Sex and sex work is only partially about the act and we'd see such a radical change in society if we lived in a fully communist society that I don't think we can properly predict at all what things would be like. Sex work as economic coercion would go away. Would something like sex work still exist? Maybe, who loving knows. A world that is less alienating and dehumanizing will radically change sexuality and I while we can imagine what that looks like there are few things we can be certain of because we're talking about something that doesn't exist and if it did exist would be a wild restructuring of how we currently live. this is where I mostly fall, I just hate people who try to use communist theory about a world that doesn't even exist yet to attack people in the current material conditions, it's such bullshit
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Jun 5, 2020 20:11
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gh0stpinballa posted:personally i think we should just kill the pimps btw, they're even bigger parasites than landlords I dunno that ranking them is productive, but yes death to pimps. sex trafficking is according to this report less than 20% of all human trafficking. https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/resource/human-trafficking-numbers All sorts of labor is trafficked. Why do you focus just on sex work? Why does the media focus on it over other forms of labor trafficking?
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Jun 5, 2020 20:16
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if there ever was a time to post  , this would be itit took over ten years, but you finally found a thread pertinent to your use, strange and forgotten emoticon
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Jun 5, 2020 20:19
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LittleBlackCloud posted:All sorts of labor is trafficked. Why do you focus just on sex work? because this is a thread about sw. also human trafficking is not the same thing as being sexually enslaved, which is why sw doesn't account for 100% of trafficking. plenty of sex slaves don't get trafficked anywhere, might never leave the city they were born in, but are held in bondage by their pimps all the same. separating victimised from voluntary workers is important because then you can talk about how we do compensation, medical treatment, rehabilitation etc for ex-slaves. harm reduction is leftism 101. the involuntary workers take priority over people doing it for some extra cash. i get tired of seeing some pretty bougie white girl with super woke politics and half a million followers on insta being held up as the typical sex worker. i think the pro and anti side of this conversation are lying to themselves in equal measure.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:25
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the argument was more philosophical in its genesis, mostly from people having lovely opinions about what to do with non-trafficked sex workers and johns NOW in the current material conditions and applying some ridiculous post-rev analysis to what kind of sexual/social relations will exist theoretically nobody would be against any restorative justice, compensation, trauma care, aide, housing, education, etc. for any victims of sex trafficking, were we the benevolent dictator of liberal society, i mean find me the person who is and i'll beat their rear end but yeah, my main contention was people treating human beings engaging in sex work or some type of transactional sex as some gross aberration of human nature that would vanish completely from a post-rev world (with a soft implied "..or else.") and then allowing that framework to color how we should handle sex work NOW, whether trafficked or not.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:29
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I like doing sex work ama
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Jun 5, 2020 20:31
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the decriminalize sex work conversation reminds me of the legalize weed conversation a decade ago. i hope it happens but rich white tech guys are gonna make all the money off it
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Jun 5, 2020 20:33
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Atrocious Joe posted:the decriminalize sex work conversation reminds me of the legalize weed conversation a decade ago. i hope it happens but rich white tech guys are gonna make all the money off it xyberpussy, from Tesla
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Jun 5, 2020 20:36
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smarxist posted:but yeah, my main contention was people treating human beings engaging in sex work or some type of transactional sex as some gross aberration of human nature that would vanish completely from a post-rev world (with a soft implied "..or else.") and then allowing that framework to color how we should handle sex work NOW, whether trafficked or not. yeah i agree it probably is never going away and i'm behind whatever reduces harm, which seems to me to be full legalisation and restorative justice for exploited people. where it loses me a bit is when people talk about having access to sex with a slight, idk, air of entitlement, or something? you haven't done this, but i do see it elsewhere a lot. "it should be my right to pay for someone to do X or Y to me if they're happy with the amount". i mean it isn't a right, it's an act that requires consent from all sides. hmm. i need to mull this over a bit more or i will say the wrong thing, tricky to articulate why some aspects make me uneasy.
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Jun 5, 2020 20:41
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gonna be full earnest to try and help this discussion go into an effective placebvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:I like doing sex work ama yeah for this we definitely are going to need actual sex workers to talk about it So, what do you like about it? If you had all your material necessities attended, would you do it as an extra or not at all?
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Jun 5, 2020 20:42
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no, I can definitely see why it gets squicky, because we mostly think in terms of patriarchy and prioritizing the rights of what men want from women, and even in a progressive or idealistic setting, the idea that those wants could still compel women to do things they don't want, even in a minute cosmic background microwave radiation way is unnerving like the other poster said, we have no idea what form sexual relations and social dynamics would have post-rev, personally if we do it right and make sure that patriarchy is obliterated to the degree it can be immediately and massage it out of our society over generations, we'll probably see a much more dynamic arrangement of social relations, fluid and chill we're mostly of the pair-bonded monogamous proclivities because of how much danger was involved in pregnancy and birth, and how much work both parents had to do to get a child past infancy. once those factors are completely eliminated AND we don't have coercive superstructures reinforcing them all zombie-like from above to serve capital? all bets are off man. human history pre-historical record (i.e. anthropology, no writing, greater than 6000 years or w/e) is fascinating, especially around the time of the younger dryas, which was maybe the last of the super chill migratory humans w/ settlements, primitive agriculture and enhanced hunting/gathering, where maybe we were our most free ever as individuals before agriculture created sedentary lifestyles and populations took off like a rocket and we had to create systems of dominance to dole out scarce resources. that's where I kinda think we'd pick up where we left off if we escape this trap we're in, but 
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Jun 5, 2020 20:49
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Atrocious Joe posted:the decriminalize sex work conversation reminds me of the legalize weed conversation a decade ago. i hope it happens but rich white tech guys are gonna make all the money off it I'm all for decriminalizing and I can't fathom why some leftists don't want it to be, but I have the same concerns. Except, instead of weed being exploitated, it will continue to be sex trafficked women. Amsterdam is the perfect example of how quickly legalization can go wrong, with all the economically desperate eastern European women who "voluntarily" sell their body... except not really because they owe their "talent hunters" money after getting transported to the Netherlands. QUEER FRASIER posted:Also re: the trafficking discussion I just want to throw out there that many large anti-sex trafficking NGOs literally kidnap sex workers under threat of death and force them to work in sweatshops run by the exact companies that fund said NGOs and get to put out press releases about what good conscious capitalists they are: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/from-brothel-to-sweatshop-questions-on-labour-trafficking-in-camb/ 😕 Famethrowa has issued a correction as of 20:56 on Jun 5, 2020 |
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Jun 5, 2020 20:53
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I like to think of sex works potential place in fully automated luxury gay space communism as similar to professional athletes. Their work is inessential to the productive economy, but essential to social reproduction as currently constituted. both are skilled forms of physical labor that offer something people get genuine pleasure and enjoyment out of. Each would likely reduce in importance and exploitativeness in a society not driven by alienation and material deprivation, but would still hold a special place in many peoples social reproduction, and in that sense each would become more of a valued art/craft and less of a commodified good. Also re: the trafficking discussion I just want to throw out there that many large anti-sex trafficking NGOs literally kidnap sex workers under threat of death and force them to work in sweatshops run by the exact companies that fund said NGOs and get to put out press releases about what good conscious capitalists they are: https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/beyond-trafficking-and-slavery/from-brothel-to-sweatshop-questions-on-labour-trafficking-in-camb/
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Jun 5, 2020 20:54
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guys please dont fall for the idiotic argument of "all paid sex are coerced and are benefiting someone else therefore sex work is bad and we should look down on it all" because then you are falling into the trap of seeing them as none legit work in the first place you should argue that if there are coerced sex workers, what's the best way of rooting it out to protect the workers and the health of the public gh0stpinballa posted:where it loses me a bit is when people talk about having access to sex with a slight, idk, air of entitlement, or something? you haven't done this, but i do see it elsewhere a lot. "it should be my right to pay for someone to do X or Y to me if they're happy with the amount". i mean it isn't a right, it's an act that requires consent from all sides. hmm. i need to mull this over a bit more or i will say the wrong thing, tricky to articulate why some aspects make me uneasy. no one is saying saying they are entitled to sex
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Jun 5, 2020 21:03
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Atrocious Joe posted:the decriminalize sex work conversation reminds me of the legalize weed conversation a decade ago. i hope it happens but rich white tech guys are gonna make all the money off it Cu-ber
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Jun 5, 2020 21:11
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coke posted:guys please dont fall for the idiotic argument of "all paid sex are coerced and are benefiting someone else therefore sex work is bad and we should look down on it all" because then you are falling into the trap of seeing them as none legit work in the first place literally the 2nd sentence says i haven't seen anybody do it here but "i see this elsewhere a lot" also nobody is arguing that all paid sex work is coercive in fact the conversation has been nuanced and in favour of legalisation. nobody has fallen for that idiotic argument you mention or the equally idiotic argument that all sex workers are liberated and super woke, just making a cheeky buck as a side hustle on the fan cams. ppl are hashing out finer details and figuring out what a world with legalised sex work would look like.
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Jun 5, 2020 21:12
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gh0stpinballa posted:i get tired of seeing some pretty bougie white girl with super woke politics and half a million followers on insta being held up as the typical sex worker. None of the sex workers I know match that description. No one in this thread is suggesting that. This is a strawman argument. Have you ever, in your life, spoken about other work in the same way you talk about sex work?
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Jun 5, 2020 21:14
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gh0stpinballa posted:literally the 2nd sentence says i haven't seen anybody do it here but "i see this elsewhere a lot" Almost all SW I know are either subsistence or using it to get through school. Sex work in a post-capitalist society wouldn't look like it does now. You also clearly don't know what the gently caress you are talking about. Your characterization of Rich Sex Workers as the only ones who don't need saving (and probably have a trust fund anyway if they just talked to daddy and so on ~sniff~) is frankly a bit misogynist. Why can't you understand the concept that you shouldn't have legal consequences specific to sex work, but instead regulate slavery and trafficking in general? Your premise seems to be that because some amount of people who perform sexual labor are enslaved, then sex work needs special attention from the law. This is a false premise. Slavery isn't work. Sex work shouldn't be regulated it should be decriminalized. sex workers should have legal protections.
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Jun 5, 2020 21:23
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LittleBlackCloud posted:None of the sex workers I know match that description. No one in this thread is suggesting that. This is a strawman argument. Have you ever, in your life, spoken about other work in the same way you talk about sex work? lol what. every single profession signal boosts people who "made it" in whatever field, that's the nature of the system and human beings in general. most of the time you will enter a job and make just enough to cover rent and buy food and then white knuckle until pay day. i don't see how sex work is any different. certainly doesn't seem to be from talking to the sw i know.
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Jun 5, 2020 21:33
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gh0stpinballa posted:lol what. every single profession signal boosts people who "made it" in whatever field, that's the nature of the system and human beings in general. most of the time you will enter a job and make just enough to cover rent and buy food and then white knuckle until pay day. i don't see how sex work is any different. certainly doesn't seem to be from talking to the sw i know. so what is your point here? Mine was that I do not personally know any sex workers with a million followers who are white yes queen boss bitches. If you know people who are just getting by, I don't understand what your argument is. No one here has suggested sex work is some empowering great thing.
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Jun 5, 2020 21:35
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gh0stpinballa posted:lol what. every single profession signal boosts people who "made it" in whatever field, that's the nature of the system and human beings in general. most of the time you will enter a job and make just enough to cover rent and buy food and then white knuckle until pay day. i don't see how sex work is any different. certainly doesn't seem to be from talking to the sw i know. then what is your point? e: lol, not only sixer'd, but e:fb as well
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Jun 5, 2020 21:37
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Sex is work and I don't get paid enough
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Jun 5, 2020 21:50
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I don't see why sex work should necessarily go away under socialism, if someone wants to do that as their contribution to society instead of whatever their other options are I think that should be fine
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Jun 5, 2020 22:15
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I guess I'll do sex work but I don't do windows
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Jun 5, 2020 22:59
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Well in that case, where do I collect my unemployment?
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Jun 6, 2020 00:18
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The idea that laws regulating prostitution are implemented in order to protect prostitutes is absurd and the implementation of these laws does not seem to correlate with safer prostitution. You may argue that this is because of the social stigma around sex and prostitution and whatever and that may well be the case, but we are never going to get to a place where most parents will accept prostitute as a valid career choice for their kids to aspire to. Hell, I am a teacher and I absolutely do not want any of my students to grow up to be prostitutes, sorry not sorry. I can see the through line in the argument that once prudes like me loosen up, we will be in a sucking and loving for dollars utopia since we've all seen attitudes around sex in general change so much in our lifetimes. poo poo, things were already radically different 30 years ago than they were 50 years ago but prostitution is unlike homosexuality or other forms of sexual expression which are independent of the economy. Prostitution is categorically different. I think that this article is instructive and I agree with the source's framing of sex work as a byproduct of larger social problems similar to how drug addiction is a byproduct of larger social forces. I will quote some parts that mention that people who are prostitutes should not be subject to any criminal or civil penalties and should be given avenues for meeting their needs outside of prostitution. If we are going to talk about shaping laws within capitalism to protect people, I think that is where the energy should be placed. I do not think we should focus on passing laws to allow Hilton and Marriott to open hotel chains where you gently caress the maid in a well regulated environment. quote:What I want to see is women in prostitution, and indeed men, boys, everybody, be offered alternatives, real, viable alternatives, she said. And Im talking about help with housing, with child care, with education, training, with counseling, with addiction [therapy], all of the things that women need help with in order to get them out of that situation. Im not advocating for lets just criminalize the pimps and the johns and [abandon] the women. People saying that venture capitalists are salivating at the opportunity to get your holes in a booth next to the optometrist in the Wal-Mart for 10 bucks an hour are right and that is hosed up. So no radlibs, the only ethical consumption under capitalism is not sex
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Jun 6, 2020 00:25
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Egg Moron posted:The idea that laws regulating prostitution are implemented in order to protect prostitutes is absurd and the implementation of these laws does not seem to correlate with safer prostitution. You may argue that this is because of the social stigma around sex and prostitution and whatever and that may well be the case, but we are never going to get to a place where most parents will accept prostitute as a valid career choice for their kids to aspire to. Hell, I am a teacher and I absolutely do not want any of my students to grow up to be prostitutes, sorry not sorry. quote:I think that this article is instructive and I agree with the source's framing of sex work as a byproduct of larger social problems similar to how drug addiction is a byproduct of larger social forces lol if you are pointing out illegal activities under existing law and say it's bad so we should throw out all the laws while not suggesting anything remotely realistic seems like people have forgotten how prohibition failed because preventing fermentation taking place everywhere was impossibly hard, and unlike prohibition you dont even need any waiting time for sex work to take place
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Jun 6, 2020 02:05
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coke posted:if regular std testing and giving them a legal way to file complaints against illegal non-consent acts is absurd in protecting the welfare of the workers and clients, what would you realistically recommend? Egg Moron posted:What I want to see is women in prostitution, and indeed men, boys, everybody, be offered alternatives, real, viable alternatives, she said. And Im talking about help with housing, with child care, with education, training, with counseling, with addiction [therapy], all of the things that women need help with in order to get them out of that situation. Im not advocating for lets just criminalize the pimps and the johns and [abandon] the women. coke posted:that's why you forbid sex work on temp visa etc. The article I posted and this other Chris Hedges article describe how legalizing and regulating prostitution greases the skids for traffickers and fails to deliver the goods for the people who are working. it's a great deal for pimps though prostitution and bootlegging seem dissimilar to me Egg Moron has issued a correction as of 02:50 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 02:45
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Egg Moron posted:The article I posted and this other Chris Hedges article describe how legalizing and regulating prostitution greases the skids for traffickers and fails to deliver the goods for the people who are working. it's a great deal for pimps though decriminalization not regulation. Chris hedges is a xtian anarchist and thinks human overpopulation itself is a problem. consider reading some of the articles I posted.
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Jun 6, 2020 02:51
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Egg Moron posted:The article I posted and this other Chris Hedges article describe how legalizing and regulating prostitution greases the skids for traffickers and fails to deliver the goods for the people who are working. it's a great deal for pimps though quote:Sex work is also prohibited for those on temporary visas, and immigration for and investment in sex work is prohibited. Egg Moron posted:prostitution and bootlegging seem dissimilar to me
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Jun 6, 2020 03:02
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coke posted:which is why you have something like the unrealistic idea on the table itt is that prostitution can exist in a way that isn't grotesquely exploitative and harmful. i think that being economically coerced into having sex you would otherwise not be having is rape if we are talking about harm reduction through laws within capitalist society, those laws should work to help people transition out of prostitution by providing for the needs they are seeking the meet through prostitution. Egg Moron has issued a correction as of 03:15 on Jun 6, 2020 |
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Jun 6, 2020 03:11
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Perry Mason Jar posted:Dude if I want a loving chocolate bar and a dude told me to suck his dick first I'd go ask someone else for the loving chocolate bar. What the hell?? Some people don't mind or even enjoy sucking dick and would happily trade the act for some chocolate. You're framing sex in this weird commodity relationship where you assume the subjective cost of a blowjob is greater than the subjective value of a chocolate bar. To some people it just ain't so. As an aside, chimpanzees are known to trade food such as fruit for sexual favors. Seeing as how we share a common ancestor sex work in the form of bartering likely predates homo sapiens.
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Jun 6, 2020 03:22
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