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When talking about WW2 it must always be in your mind that the Nazis started it because they intended to genocide basically everyone but a very small racial group. The Holocaust is not a byproduct or something they decided to do when they were winning, but what they aimed to do. Because Nazi race science is incredibly evil and incredibly dumb. You have your Aryans, who are the Nordic people, so the Germans, Swedes, Norwegians, Danes, and the Dutch. Basically anyone that had their origins in Germanic tribes that had a somewhat unified culture, anyone that had a form of Odin in their mythology. Plus Blond haired and Blue Eyed people were common. But because the nazis were a bunch of failsons and protogoons, they envied high culture found in France and England. They would cosplay as English Nobles and go on fox hunts and other imitative crap. Because of this they had the concept of the Torch or Cupbearer Races (i've seen both used in historical studies), that is Races that aren't quite as good as the Aryans, but have a place in the New Order. But then you have the Subhumans; the Jews, the Slavs, the Roma, the Gays, Black people, Arabs and North Africans. These people would be completely exterminated, did not deserve to exist. They contributed nothing to humanity. This lead to some hilarious things like all Jewish science needed to be removed from Germany and replaced with proper, Aryan science. If you know the amount of stuff that the Jewish people have contributed to the sciences, you can see how this would turn out. They were always planning on killing millions. The war was started to do that, the Living Space that Hitler went on about wasn't just displacing people, but their extermination. So everytime I see someone try to say "Well, the allies were just as bad" I get incredibly upset because its completely obscuring just how evil Nazi ideology is. Yes the Allies did terrible things in prosecution of the war, but FDR didn't tell his Generals to murder, rape and loot as much as they can because the Germans are not worthy of existence. Even in the Pacific War, where Racism was a definitive part of the war, more so than in the European theater, but outside of a few people in the US government, there was no idea that they'd just murder them all, destroy all the accomplishments and erase them from history. There were some Racists who thought that would be a good idea, but its America, of course there's some crazy racists in the government. At worst there was an plan floated to destroy Japan's industrial development and turn it into a purely agrarian nation. Also, when thinking that a Jagpanther is cool, or an Me-262 is an amazing peace of technology, remember that those were made to further a goal of genocide. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 03:55 on Jul 18, 2020 |
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Jul 18, 2020 03:49
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| # ¿ May 9, 2024 14:13 |
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WW2 always lists its sources in the show notes, so you can check those on the episode about Prince Paul. Looking at the comments, a number of people in them say that his rehabilitation was done during the Yugoslavian civil war in the 90s so I'm not 100% convinced he was completely innocent, though i think the assessment he was in a damned if he did, damned if he didn't situation where there were no good choices. Though this is not my area of expertese. That's most about the workings of the Nazi state, plus its nearly 20 years any my memory is pretty hazy on even that. Too bad I do not have my rejected thesis statement, not rejected because its contents, but because it was not written in proper academic style. gently caress that gatekeeping.
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Jul 18, 2020 04:01
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Julius CSAR posted:I can’t quote this post enough. I recently discovered that Wunderwaffe is used by Germans to describe something big, expensive, and useless. ALSO the idea that prewar Germany was a prosperous and wonderful place is also a myth. The entire thing was built on credit that was promised on the plunder that would be taken in the upcoming war. Plus the Nazis worked hand in hand with the big companies and the wealthy to make sure workers were content that they wouldn't cause trouble. And even then, the wages of workers were still lower than preDepression era Wiemar Germany. And the oppression and exploitation already existed. All Unions were disbanded and their leaders sent to Dachau, and replaced with one big Nazi Union that was basically 'Work for the glory of Germany, and you'll get a vacation, but complain about the long hours and low pay *gun to head motion*". Germans also made some dumb mistakes when building late war stuff. Like the Panther, early versions needed a special tool to remove the engine cover. Inside the engine took up all the space in the compartment with a space that was exactly the size of that tool. So if you dropped the tool down the side down of the engine, its gone. And you were only issued one. Why would you do this? Why not just use a regular tool that there were probably millions floating around. Plus the amount of men and materials devoted to just murdering people was massive. Especially in the USSR, where that could have been used on the front, as the Germans had exhausted their reserves within a few weeks of the operations starting. I'd recommend, if you can stomach it because the movie is incredibly brutal, but the Russian movie Come and See. It's about a 14 year old boy who joins Partisans during the invasion of the Soviet Union. It's shot like a horror movie, because it was. As I said, you can think German equipment was cool form an aesthetic or engineering POV but never forget what they represent.
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Jul 18, 2020 18:51
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MakaVillian posted:By the time they defeated France, Hitler was 100% convinced that Germany was going to fulfill what he saw as their destiny and gave himself about 95% of the credit for their success. The quick fall of France was more about the French not wanting to go through the horrors of WW1 again, rather than losing another entire generation to war.
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Jul 18, 2020 22:07
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The Japanese Government were totally willing to let their entire population die to fend off an American invasion. Primary sources directly from the high command confirm this. You can find many civilian politicians saying "this war is hosed up, we need to stop now, honor and all that poo poo be damned" but by 1945 there was zero civilian control over the Japanese government, so that is pretty meaningless. And to use it to try to claim the Japanese were begging to surrender is incredibly historically dishonest. Also, from Saipan and other Islands with Japanese civilians, it was already shown that many were ready to kill themselves rather than face what they believed would be a fate worse than death if the Americans took the Island. And even if they weren't ready to fling themselves into the sea, the Japanese Army was more than willing to make the decision for them. Remember, people living in Japan at that time had never known a society that was not tied up in all kinds of macho bullshit claimed to be Bushido, the 40k motto"It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself" is incredibly true. People knew no other life but complete and utter service to the Emperor and his role as Divine head of state. Reading some stuff written by surviving WW2 Japanese soldiers shows a kind of insane devotion that cannot be matched, even by the most fanatical Waffen-SS trooper or Hitler Youth. They knew they could not defeat the American's by direct conflict, but they believed that the Americans were soft and if you killed enough of their soldiers, they'd sign a peace with the Japanese. Though the Americans felt that the Japanese could not compete with strapping American soldiers, and went into most of their battles over confident. I am not saying that dropping two bombs on Japan was good or bad, but a lot of arguments I see against it seem to completely ignore the facts surrounding how Japan was organized, and the state of mind of its population. The fact that Operation Olympic never happened means that we will never know of the multi million causalities projected may have happened, but as I said above, what happened on islands the Americans had taken was a hearld of things to come. They originally wanted to drop it on Kyoto because it was in a valley which would make the bomb much more effective, but was overruled because it was the cultural and spiritual heart of Japan and by then they were already drawing up plans for post war Japan and they knew they needed the Emperor to remain there to prevent a new fascist, or worse, communist, regime to take over. That is often cited as an example of why the decision to drop it was a practical one, but i mean, why not drop it on an military target , or even a uninhabited place? Also, the dropping of both bombs still pales in comparison to the causalities the Japanese inflicted on China. It's probably as bad as the civilian casualties in Barbarossa. twistedmentat fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Jul 19, 2020 |
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Jul 19, 2020 01:01
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OKay, my top 5 WW2 Tanks (and other AFVs)! 1. Panzer IV Ausf H  What I think is the best German tank. It may not be as well armored as a the Panther, but it as about the same gun, but it is much less complex and easier to build. 2. Sherman Firefly  Sherman with an British 17 pounder gun. Could destroy almost anything the Germans could throw at them in the late war due to the sabot round it used. 3. T-34-85  This is a big middle finger to the Nazis made into a tank. 4. Churchill  A great tank named after a horrible person. 5. Jagpanzer 38t (aka Hetzer)  A little tank destroyer that was perfect for being a anti-tank sniper. Though it had issues doing the shoot and scoot it was meant to.
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Jul 19, 2020 01:57
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MakaVillian posted:I did an undergrad paper on the bombings and I came to the conclusion after reading the literature that it saved a significant number of lives for the reasons you point out. I think there is a valid debate on whether the US needed to bomb 2 large cities, rather than one city and another strictly military target or uninhibited area. Operation Downfall would've resulted in horrific casualties so I think, as awful as the bombs were, they saved a lot of lives. It can be argued both ways, but yea, there is a possibility that "100 million people as once bullet!" slogan the Japanese were using to prepare their population to defense of their homeland. Considering most of their young men were already dead or in service, this was mostly women, old people and children. Though even then, sticking thousands of people with old rifles, muskets, bamboo spears and whatever they could on the front line may have just meant they instantly collapsed and the invasion would be mostly bloodless. But the waiting list for Kamakaze pilots what still hundreds of names long at the end of the war. That reminds me of another thing that makes the Nazis histories biggest assholes. At Normandy, many of the units that were guarding the beaches where not German, but essentially slave soldiers. They would force people from occupied territories into units and plopped into garrison duty with German officers to make sure they shot at the allies rather than them. Many were from the Red Army, so you had guys from the Eastern Soviet union that where in Normandy shooting at Americans, Brits and Canadians. Also in Saving Private Ryan, you might remember the scene where two GIs come across two Germans trying to surrender and they're saying something that the Americans don't know, so they get shot. They're actually Hungarians pressed into German service. When someone says "just old men and boys" being what the Germans have left, you should expect well lead, equipped, trained veteran units. Market Garden was organized based on this idea, and when they made contact with the Germans in Holland, oops, all experienced units! The Brits kept thinking that in WW1 too, only to come across incredibly well entrenched German forces. So basically, if you're at war, and some British officer tells you that you're going up against old men and boys, then be prepared to fight against some of the best soldiers you can imagine.
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Jul 19, 2020 02:57
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Blistex posted:Don't know where you scrubs are getting your Operation Downfall stats/predictions, but they're weak. Lol Douglas "Lets shoot American Veterans who just want to be paid" McArthur. I wouldn't trust him to estimate how much cake would be needed at an birthday party. Castuality ratios had been shown to be 1 American to 7 Japanese killed. The planning board, who had more people on it than one general on it even at its low estimation at half a million, and others had similar numbers. McArthur was out for blood and wanted the invasion to happen as soon as possible, probably to win himself even more glory (thats my editorializing there based on the mans personality). A really good book I read in university was War Without Mercy: Race and the pacific war and it gets really in depth on how racism on both sides was a major factor in how both America and Japan prosecuted the war.
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Jul 19, 2020 08:20
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BIG TIT LIL NIP posted:haha are you my bud jacques who i used to play gi joe with back in the day? your interest in the nazis was disturbing dude i hope you worked that poo poo out Lots of kids get into Nazi poo poo, because it's so childish. Its basically all my problems are because of someone else, I am blameless!
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Jul 20, 2020 01:27
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buglord posted:For what its worth, a lot of popular media out there tends to paint the Third Reich as some super state with super advanced armor with meticulously vetted and rigorously trained men. I watched a lot of History/Discovery Channel growing up, and they certainly give way more airtime to "look at this impenetrable tank" over " this tank was used to defend a country with genocidal policy". Me being brown made that weird mainstream fascination of nazis even weirder. It's also why I don't play the Germans in any WW2 themed game if I have to: if they win, I lose. Yea, trying to make villains who seem unstoppable means you turn the Nazis from being a bunch of idiots who managed be successful for 2 years, to being high tech supermen. One of the reasons i like the new Wolfenstien games is they don't ignore the horrible aspects of Nazism and its part of the story that if these guys won, it would be bad for everyone. I love the scene in the second one where some SS guy is talking to Klansmen and they try to speak German and the Nazi gets pissed off that these brain dead hicks are murdering his beautiful language. Plus Nazism is all pageantry, and kids really get into that kind of stuff. Also weird nerds, now or in 1920s Germany.
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Jul 20, 2020 03:39
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Grevling posted:It's hosed up when you're from a country the Nazis invaded and occupied and read about the extent of collaboration. It was more common than you'd think! One of the simplest ways was just letting the Nazis hire you to build stuff for them. Local police also helped them round up Jews. One guy from my hometown who ran a shop before I was born had actually fought for the Nazis on the eastern front. Cops will always be cops. But ya collaboration was really rampant but people had multiple reasons for doing it. There were those that thought the nazis were swell and therefor were more than happy to round up jews or denounce their neighbors. Then there are those that saw opportunities to make money from it, though that could include people who legitimately just needed to run a business to keep their family from being homeless, but then there were those who saw it as an opportunity to get rich off them. I read a good book on the collaborations in France and it was interesting how many, after the war saying "I wish i could have poisoned every crepe i sold to the germans, but I knew if even one reserve cook got indigestion from one, my life and my families life was forfet." It was really good about how terrifying life under the Germans was in France, and that caused people to lick boot more than they wanted to do. Partisans and Resistance fighters did try to make a distinction between people who were willing and those who were unwilling, but it was not always possible. Though what is way more scary is those that couldn't wait for the Germans to show up to get down on all fours. There are stories that in the Ukraine, before Germans got to a town they had already rounded up all the local Jews ready to give over to the Germans to dispose of. Funky See Funky Do posted:No you're wrong. There is. I mean, if Odin showed up and spirited the German army across the rainbow bridge maybe. Germany never was close to having air superiority over England and never developed decent landing craft. A German pilot who got shot down over England was a prisoner, a British pilot could be back in the cockpit within a few hours if he wasn't too seriously injured. Plus Hitler was not interested in England anymore, was more interested in Russia. Did you know HG Wells was at the top of the list of people the Germans would find and execute if they did invade? Guess Island of Dr Moreau was too much for Hitler.
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Jul 20, 2020 08:44
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Funky See Funky Do posted:
Yea, but they were saving planes for Barbarossa even then. The Germans never committed their full power against Britain, becuase he was more focused on the USSR. Wells died in 1946.
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Jul 20, 2020 18:33
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I always liked how Red Army guys looked like they were wearing pajamas. Looks comfortable as hell. Ive actually heard Canadian uniforms were the most comfortable. US ones looked pretty functional too. But yea, German uniforms looking good but actually being terrible is pretty par for the course. As I said earlier, Nazism and fascism in general is all about pagentry.
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Jul 20, 2020 21:32
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Zzulu posted:It's good that the Russians saved Europe and that America cockblocked them from also conquering Europe Based on what happened to the countries that did fall under soviet control post war, I don't think that was a bad thing. Also Germans looking fabulous makes me think of Sam Rockwell at the end of Jojo Rabbit.
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Jul 20, 2020 23:33
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I do like how the Soviets produced more tanks in a month than the Germans produced in the entire war.
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Jul 21, 2020 00:12
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Big Beef City posted:I'm not real sure painting a sign that says 'tank' and making three guys run with it counts Yea the Germans were down to nothing by the end of the war.
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Jul 21, 2020 01:02
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:
Too bad the French thought they were fighting WW1 again and only deployed them with infantry rather than organizing them into Tank Divisions. Also best tanks Germans had during the invasion of France where the Czech tanks. And if you don't like my list, make your own!
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Jul 21, 2020 21:15
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I have always wondered what would be worse, dying in a tank or in a submarine.
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Jul 22, 2020 00:31
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Like, I have no idea if you can have a quick death is a submarine. If the hull cracks and water rushes it can it crush you before you realize what's going on? Or do you always just drown first. A tank you could be trapped in it while the ammo cooked off, or you could die instantly if a shell hits you a certain way, like it just straight up hits you or spinters get your, or you get pulped by the rush of air it creates. Though I'm pretty sure the worst way to die in WW2 is to a flamethrower.
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Jul 22, 2020 02:17
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Hyrax Attack! posted:His output quality is inconsistent, no argument there. But How Few Remain is pretty darn good, especially as setting it in 1881 made it harder for him to copy/paste WWII battles, and some ideas like Lincoln becoming a socialist leader were interesting. Plus I got to meet him at a signing and he was super nice towards the young goon’s questions. Yea, I enjoy that one, and the WW1 between the USA and CSA was pretty good too, but the WW2 was literal just "yea Pittsburg is Stalingrad" and other 1:1 comparisons. I did read the first book of Hitlers War which is if the Allies went to war over Czechoslovakia so things are way more disorganized than they actually were. The character I liked the most is the Czech guy who was a sniper armed with a Boys anti tank rifle. But what kind of ended my interest in Turtledove was his book about Herydrich leading an insurgencey against the occupying Allies and it was a 1:1 Iraq comparison and the book seemed to say "protesting war is stupid, you need to keep troops there forever or the nazis will just come back!" with very clear paraelles between the Anti Iraq protests and people like Syndey Sheehan. Which is stupid because in 1945-46 people didn't think like that. Also the attitude about WW2 was completely different than Iraq. And even in reality, Churchill already had plans to keep the war going if the home islands were taken because the British Empire was global and had a huge resource base of men and materials to draw on, plus the Royal Navy had zero threats from Germany. Plus that would have almost certainly brought the US into the war earlier. Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:Also it wasn't a democratic society. Churchill didn't get elected PM. I just want to point out that in Parliamentary Democracies, the public elects the PM directly, they are chosen from within the party, and whomever is in charge of the party at the time of winning the election become PM. So yes, no one elected Churchill, but people elected the party he lead. But the rest is right, there was a lot of curbing of free speech and criticism of the war and government at the time, which is often left out and its sorta made out that everyone in the UK was all stallwart and cheerie o pip pip as the bombs fell.
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Jul 22, 2020 03:21
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Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:That's all very much true and I'm not contesting it. I'm just saying that the UK has been very much lumped into the Free World and the good democracies and it's bullshit. They had a General Election in 1935 and those representatives kept power for 10 years. WWI Germany was more democratic. Even our loving CSA had an election in 1863. It's pretty telling that as soon as the Brits could vote again, they tossed out the Conservatives. And then brought them back in the 50s 
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Jul 22, 2020 04:26
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A story that I heard both from my dad and one of my profs in university was that at the university, the person both of them took modern European history from, so from basically French Revolution to WW2, was a former Polish resistance fighter. He has been in the Polish Army, but had managed to escape purges by both German and Soviets. He and his wife where in Warsaw when the uprising happened. He, like most of of the rest of the resistance, thought "the soviets will come and help us!" but it dawned on him earlier than most that the Soviets had no intention on helping the Pols liberate their own capital. So he and his wife snuck out of the city though the sewers and managed to get to the coast and found a boat which they were able to take to Sweden. From there they made their way to Canada after the war was over and you could move around a bit.
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Jul 24, 2020 08:00
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Blistex posted:I always thought it was neat how the Germans took the Iron cross and just kept "upgrading" it as soldiers levelled up, rather than spamming guy's uniforms with a million medals and patches. Yea but then you don't look as cool as my avatar.
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Jul 26, 2020 00:24
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| # ¿ May 9, 2024 14:13 |
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Also I think the Nazis were all about sameness, and by giving someone a chest full of bottlecaps it elevated them above another. Plus they had an almost Simpons's level of all success springs from the Furher, so by saying General Von Krankenhaus was who beat the 69th Guards Regiment At Buttinsky, that breaks that idea. Like seriously, children born under the nazis were basically told thunder and lighting were created by Hitler, and he is the one that hung the moon. That reminds me on how ridiculous the indoctrination was in Jojo Rabbit, even though it was closer than some might think. Or in Downfall where the Hitler Youth are manning a field gun or something and they're all being willingly shot by their leader. I mean these are movies, but again, not far from the truth. I read a real good book on the fall of Berlin and it was by the same guy who wrote Enemy at the Gates, and that other scene in Downfall where the kid finds all the civilian hung is based on the fact during the Battle of Berlin, the Nazis still devouted manpower to punishing political enemies, in this case civilians that refused to go die to the advancing soviets. You know, rather than going out and fighting them. God they were stupid, its amazing that their ideology is still popular with people today. They're all weirdo losers who want to blame women on why they can't be laid, but its kept alive. Whcih reminds me of a recent Quinton Reviews vid where he talks about BAD NAZI DOCUMENTARIES https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maeO6Isb_So I highly recomend watching it to the end becuase god drat is the end of HUNTING HITLER hilarious. For those of you who don't they are given a photo of what they say is an old Hitler, and using facial recognition software they prove 100% without a doubt that it is Hitler, but who is it really? MOE loving HOWARD. Also those Hunting Hitler guys are super horny over the idea Hitler escaped.
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Jul 27, 2020 07:34
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