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Jetrauben posted:Hraesvelgr has some in his battle arena. Interestingly, they're called "holy sprites," which reinforces the idea that Hrasevelgr himself is a quasi-divine being. Also Hraeslvelgr just straight up uses Light and Ice magic.
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Oct 4, 2021 12:20
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iPodschun posted:My assumption is that this is a reference to Hraesvelgr having consumed the real Shiva. I don't remember if there's confirmation that the real Shiva was especially Ice/Light aspected the way Ysayle's Shiva is but it's consistent with the great FF universe's use of Shiva. Unlikely, the real Shiva appears to have been an Elezen of no particular power, simply a great love and capacity for peace-seeking. That's part of Hraesvelgr's initial discussion with Ysale, the ice powered goddess witch is something Ysale made up wholesale from whatever beliefs she had about the real Shiva and also Ysale believing herself to be the reincarnation of Shiva, which Hraesvelgr particularly found offensive given he still has Shiva's soul within him. Which well, maybe real Shiva was a great user of Ice magic, but certainly it's never mentioned in the story. Hraesvelgr and Nidhogg meanwhile definitely use Light/Ice and Dark/Fire respectively, which with the discussion about what is Astral and what is Umbral and the revelations of the first makes sense.
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Oct 4, 2021 15:24
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sexpig by night posted:yea I really adore those little theories because they're 100% accurate and realistic to how myths evolve. Like, yea, of course it's possible Ysayle conflated her cultural touchstone of Halone's ice connections and all with Shiva's 'power', because even if that 'power' was likely just 'was one of the few of her era willing to fight for peace' to someone raised in a massively Halone focused society you can see how they'd go 'well and she also could shoot ice spears, right?'. It also helps that Ysale herself is being a focal point of worship for her followers, who refer to her as Iceheart. At least her initial summoning attempt back in ARR was, her later summonings at that point have an inertia even if she's the only source of faith/belief because of course she'd transform into the same thing as she believes until she meets Hraesvelgr that she has in fact contacted/contracted the original Shiva.
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Oct 4, 2021 17:01
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sexpig by night posted:this is a weird comparison because even without going into the fact that Tsukuyomi is an actual major part of Japanese myth just pure in universe the only reason she was able to become Tsukuyomi was because of the mirror stolen from the Kojin that literally had the actual kami of the moon and stars Tsukuyomi in it. She's literally a moon goddess. There's no representation, she pulls a Shiva and literally destroys her moral shell to host a divinity. Shiva isn't a divinity, she's a Primal, as are all the Kami of the Kojin. Born from the fervent beliefs and prayers and ambient aether of the Kojin over thousands of years and activated by sufficient power storages. None of the divinities are actually gods in the sense that they existed and then people believed in them, people believed in them and that shaped them into existence. It's a huge deal about why the Auspices are different (they're very old animals grown powerful) and why the Primals need to be killed, because they drain the aether from the land by their very existences. Like when you first fight Susanoo Lyse and Alisaie straight up say this is a Primal and we have to get away because it will temper us. Hien (or at least someone in the Tsukuyomi lead-in) makes exactly the same statement against Tsukuyomi. All of which ties back into the fact that every living being still has access to the Ascian/Ancients creation magics, but because they no longer have the massive Aetherial Stores of the original Ancients and the method of creation that the Ascians teach is inherently flawed the Primals are destructive where Ancients creations are not. Presumably the Kami are created from a much slower form of the process by which a Primal normally is manifested. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 18:54
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multijoe posted:She has nothing to do with the functioning or existence of the moon though, she's just a representation of it given power and significance by a particular culture, that is the difference between real world conceptualisations of divinities and the FF14 concept of a primal. None of the primals do anything to maintain reality or the running of the world other than the two created to specifically to alter its prior state by humans, the rest are just big guys and nothing else. Yeah, Tsukuyomi is all representation, she's a representation of the beliefs of the Kojin, but she's also a representation of Yotsuyu's own beliefs, hence why the phase transition is her literally trying to power up by remembering her traumas that made her who she is today. Shiva in turn is the representation of Ysale's and her followers beliefs, not the real Shiva at all (which Ysale finds out when she talks to Hraesvelgr again and he's pretty pissed off about the whole summoning a weird not-real version of his lover and thinking you're the reincarnation of said lover). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 18:59
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Jetrauben posted:I mean... That last bit is the point, the Primals aren't deities. They're creations in the shape of deities whose thoughts are defined by their creators. Which is why you get Ga Bu summoning a version of Titan who literally constantly cries for his parents and attacks the Kobolds. Deiform in fact means in the shape of a deity, it is not the same thing as saying they are a deity. The Kami are also primals, but they're a "safer" form of Primal that builds up over centuries from Aether pooling inside the objects of worship. Susanoo manifests because you bring his three treasures together in front of a bunch of Red Kojin who believe in him, and the combined aether of those treasures is enough for him to manifest. But if he was left alive he'd temper the Red Kojin and start draining the land of Aether, just like any other Primal. Like say, in the real world, someone makes a robot in the shape of Thor, it has the powers of Thor, but it's actions and thought patterns are not those of any real deity, but simply that which it's creator believes Thor would have. Would you call this Thor, this constructed god made by man's own hands and thoughts? A large part of FFXIV is the fact that none of the gods are potentially real beings, Garuda is based on an Allagan Woman, the 12 might be the Convocation of 14, Shiva was a normal Elezen, so on and so forth. Even Hydaelyn and Zodiark, the closest the game has to full blown gods are simply incredibly ancient computers made of magic. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:36 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:33
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Jetrauben posted:You're missing my point. That's not a god, that's a construct. They don't even have "divine" power, they are very powerful, but what they do is something anyone with enough Aether could likely do. Gods are only ideology, that's one of the throughpoints of FFXIV that none of the gods people believe in actually exist until they've been believed in enough, or if they did exist they're not divinities but based on other people who were merely powerful. I don't think that Thor is god, I think it's a false idol made in the image of Thor. A construct created as a replacement. Which is especially important in the context of FFXIV because Primals when summoned actually gently caress up their summoners thought processes permanently. At least until a cure was found. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:38
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I'm not arguing god needs to be the christian style god. I'm saying that none of the Primals count as gods to me because they're explicitly corruptions of the ideals of the god those people believe in, to the point where they in turn corrupt their people. I will concede godlike, there are many godlike beings in FFXIV, but no they are not gods and that's a really important distinction given the story itself is making a point that the gods do not exist as people think they do, and it's people believing in them that makes them real at all even as corrupt false idols. I especially don't think the dragons count because the Ancient Dragons aren't even particularly powerful, they can be killed by mortals even easier than the Primals can. The thing they've got going for them is just, immortality. Frankly Midgardsormr might be the only thing I'd even consider close to an actual God and even he's just an incredibly powerful alien. I personally think there needs to be an element of legitimate higher order divinity going on for a god to actually be a god. Everything else is simply Godlike. So to use Titan as an example, if there was a non-corrupt version of Titan who had his own will and acted autonomously without need of crystals or worship, then I would call that a God. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:46
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Jetrauben posted:I mean we had to kill Niddhogg twice and even then if we hadn't immediately separated the Eyes from his host he might've held on anyways, and in merely the fullness of his wrath he set the sky on fire with Dragonstorms. That's...pretty drat transcendently powerful. So? Having to kill him multiple times just means he's hard to kill, it's also explicitly not him the second time but his ghost/anger/spirit posessing Eistinien. Powerful beings can do powerful things isn't anything particularly impressive, every Primal transforms the land around them, because anyone with powerful enough Aetherial Manipulation can transform the land around them. Honestly the closest thing to Gods currently in FFXIV in my estimation is the Twelveswood Elementals, who exist regardless of faith or aether, have their own thoughts and feelings separate from their followers desires, and in fact are generally pretty divine in presentation to the point where they're a functional religion (that sucks sometimes to deal with). The Kami and the Auspices are second, partially because relative to other primals the Kami are much more stable and seem to be a lot more individual due to the duration of the belief process that formed them, the Auspices are elevated to near divinity by the process of their immortality. Unironically third is the Ascian Unsundered. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:52
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Jetrauben posted:...Actually quite a lot of them. There's lots of religions which have local place spirits and divinities, including, for example, Roman and Greek folk religion - it wasn't just the Olympians and most regions actually had local cults and different takes on said gods. It's pretty much the norm in Shinto, for that matter. The Shinto gods are still part of the natural world in fact the Kami of the Shinto religion are explicitly nature spirits, so are those small gods of Roman and Greeks. They're all explanations for how the natural world functions, or evolutions of heroes or history into faith. The closest to Pantheon of guys who are just strong might be Hinduism, but you'd have to check on that one. Jetrauben posted:Yeah I'd agree if nothing else the Unsundered/Ancients were unequivocally Gods in any colloquial sense. My actual point is they're not really Gods, Emet-Selch/Lahabrea/Elidibus get to be the third closest thing to an actual god post Sundering, before the Sundering they're just people. Because if everyone can do creation magics the way Amaurot presents it, then that's just the baseline humanity, not divinity. They literally made a god when they discovered their baseline wasn't good enough, and I don't count Zodiark either (or Hydaelyn). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 19:57
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Nessus posted:At what point in the game do we go up to someone and say "You thought you summoned your god. You did not, you summoned a primal," and they are like "drat! That never occurred to me!" They've actually been pretty consistent that even the beast tribes who are doing Primal summoning are reckless lunatics, with a non-lunatic group from that tribe saying something along the lines of "These maniacs are summoning some monster in the shape of our god. gently caress 'em!" Lakshmi and Susanoo get kind of close, Susanoo in particular is never treated as anything but the God the Kojin believe in (except the explicit mention that he's a primal who can Temper). The Kojin just don't care that you kill him because they recognise that he totally wanted to fight you anyway. It's part of why I'd say the Kami and Auspices come in second after the Twelveswood in terms of "Gods" in setting, the Kami seem to have been formed naturally over hundreds of years as opposed to the shoddy summoning method taught by the Ascians, they're more stable as a result with their own personalities and foibles. Nobody "summoned" Susanoo, they believed in him and so he exists. The auspices (specifically the Lords) meanwhile seem to be basically be animals who've gained Kami levels of power by absorbing Aether and being immortal. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:04 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:01
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Nessus posted:The sneeple we're actually talking to seem to recognize that the grief-maddened queen summoned a mockery of Sri Lakshmi which is when we get the famous dialogue option that overrules every other component of the text. Susano-o is fair enough but is also a kami, so that's kind of its own weird thing, not the quasi-western/fantasy version of A God, Who We Kill. Yeah, you get to basically say I'm going to kill your god and that's pretty much outright you dun summoned a Primal. The Kami are explicitly primals but more stable in how they're created, but they totally can temper people and as Yotsuyu shows can be over-written by summoners desires (she makes a Tsukuyomi based on herself, which obviously is not how such a Kami would normally manifest from that artifact), Susanoo actually takes three highly revered artifacts absolutely drenched in Aether to self-manifest. Also no the Titan thing is definitely a bit of a Fanatics deal, the Kobolds in general believe in their Great Father (and nobody has issues with that belief) but the repeated summoning of Titan is because the leadership are trying to temper as many other kobolds as they can, much like the Ramuh Sylphs want to make all the Sylphs like themselves. Remember that tempered individuals are driven to add more to the fold to empower the Primals, and the Kobolds got tempered right at the top of their culture, who get to decide their culture from said top position.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:08
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Jetrauben posted:I got the impression it was more a lovely "we're desperate so we're going to weaponize our religious practices and even sacrifice members of our people to fuel our sacrifice." It's clearly a deranged mind-control thing! (Insert Dracula quote here.) Just it's not necessarily one not reflecting the population's existing spiritual beliefs. The first time it was the Limsa Lominsans are encroaching on our lands and have broken the agreement, we're scared and we'll summon our father (because those nice robed fellows taught us how to summon our god). After that point the leadership is compromised entirely because they summoned Titan. Think of the Convocation of 13 deciding to sacrifice more people to Zodiark to keep fixing problems instead of trying other solutions. It's why solving tempering is so important, because until that happens peace is actually almost impossible, because the original summoners of the Beast Tribe Primals are largely the leaders of their respective peoples, except for the Sylphs, and the Moogles.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:12
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Nessus posted:Maybe the kobolds pulled the "brute force" version off, and that's what happened with the Company of Heroes' battle against Titan? I'm not sure on the timeframe of that sucker but I'm also not sure exactly when the Ascians started passing out Bemet-Belch's E-Z Guide to Getting the Gods to Solve Your Problems They taught Tiamat how to summon Bahamut and likely taught the triad species too, or the Triad Species learnt from Tiamat and her children. They explicitly taught the Sylphs and the Moogles, tried to teach the people of little Ala Mihgo, definitely taught Thordan, and are implied to be behind every Primal in ARR except Shiva. Come to think of it, Thordan seems to work similar to the Kami version of a Primal does. Where he’s formed from hundreds of years of believe and worship, a specific artefact completely drenched in Aether, and an individual claiming it for themselves. He even has the more complex individual thoughts of the Kami, compared to the way the Summoned Primals hyper focus on whatever they are summoned for (and in turn hyper focus their summoners). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:18
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I think the big thing is if the Kobolds did not summon Titan nobody would have an issue with them worshipping Titan. In fact there was a very long period of peace between the Titan Worshipping Kobolds and Limsa Lominsa, the issue arose because Limsa broke the treaty and the Kobolds summoned Titan to protect themselves. But once they summoned Titan once, it is a known effect of tempering that you want to summon the Primal again and empower them further. At which point the question for Titan worship becomes are you tempered into it, and thus a potential threat seeking a way to summon him again, or are you just a Kobold who believes in the Great Father. Rand Brittain posted:I'm not sure that kami are primals, although we've seen primals made in the image of a kami. Susanoo is explicitly called a Primal by Lyse and Alisaie and they can’t fight him for fear of tempering. He’s not summoned at all by any person we just bring his three treasures together and the ambient aether and hundreds of years of worship do the rest, notably each treasure in of itself was absolutely full of aether stored over the centuries from worship too. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Oct 4, 2021 |
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Oct 4, 2021 20:29
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Kami aren't primals. They're a completely different entity, like elementals or other spirits. This "safer" form of primal is just something you made up. Fair enough, I might have been conflating the only Kami I’ve seen also being primals (one of whom was manifested by chance instead of any actual summoning ritual and used zero crystals) as a kind of blanket rule that the Kami are similar to Primals but more stable. Susano is still a really weird Primal who seems to prove that Primals can simply manifest on their own in the right circumstances, and if they do so they seem more stable than normal. But as I stated it also feels like a follow up thing tied into King Thordan being a primal born from a thousand years of faith and an incredibly aether dense power source besides crystals.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:40
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Nothing weird about Susano. There were a bunch of aether-rich religious icons put in a room together with people that believe putting those relics together will summon Susano, god of partying hard. To be fair the crate thing sounds pretty rad and an extremely Susanoo move. Maybe he could organise his treasures to be shipped to the WoL for another party. Speaking of I’m a little sad they stopped doing the in universe narratives for Extreme trials, especially because at the very least Titania for Shadowbringers has an incredible slam dunk narrative for Extreme. Feo Ul wants to get a chance to play with their adorable sapling too.
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Oct 4, 2021 20:49
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I recall seeing something about Linkpearls in game where they're all from the same psychic sea-creature or something and that's how they work? Like they all get harvested at one time from a psychic clam, and so they're a single set that can communicate with eachother. Presumably the other stuff is magitek built from studying the Linkpearls and their psychic connections.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:14
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Partially because one of the ways the story presents Vauthry is that he could've been a force for good even with his upbringing under his probably lovely selfish father (the previous mayor). He chooses to instead revel in his own "divinity" and stagnate instead of using say, the ability to control Sin Eaters to help the rest of the world destroy them. Which is not a plot beat I would expect from anyone doing a take down/allegory of Trump and Trumpism.
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Oct 8, 2021 19:59
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It could easily be that you get the Egis as they are, but they use the new mechanics. Then at level 90 the Egis upgrade into being the actual primals.
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Oct 11, 2021 06:34
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Eimi posted:I hate the egis so having to see them instead of the proper summons below 90 is a MAJOR pain point. I wonder if egi glamour will still work, I'd much rather see Carby than them. They said the egi-glamour will still work from what I remember.
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Oct 14, 2021 04:58
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Blockhouse posted:Are we not counting the dissolution of the church's power in Ishgard a revolution? It's definitely a coup of some kind if nothing else. There's suggestion that the Garleans did indeed help the Ala Mihgan revolution, but it wasn't ever directly so much as maybe setting up infiltrators and resource suppliers. In either case the revolution was not a Garlean plot, them swooping in afterwards was good information warfare and such basically, they were watching for an opportunity (and likely would've attacked regardless of whether the winners were the rebellion or the king's loyalists).
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Oct 17, 2021 05:55
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Blockhouse posted:You literally rescue the innocent bystanders before the flooding happens??? Yeah, I don't particularly like the flooding the castly thing, but they explicitly only flood the Garlean occupied castle and it's keep town not any of the other parts of the Doman capitol. I've gone over the flooding in the main thread, but my opinion on it is it's an entirely unearned and unnecessary plot beat that doesn't really sell Hien as the character it wants to the way it wants to. But my opinion came after the Yotsuyu stuff that left me pretty sour on Hien and rethinking my earlier perspective on his character and actions. The Samurai job story is in fact Musosai's apprentice wanting to go back to the bloody war period of Hingashi, that Musosai himself says the primary duty of the Samurai is to stop that from happening because it was a period of time where the weak were abused by the strong. The art of the Samurai evolved as a way to protect and promote justice and peace according to Musosai, in a time of constant war between nobility. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Oct 17, 2021 |
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Oct 17, 2021 06:03
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Moofia Boss Val posted:I do not recall that line, and if it was spoken it's rather incredulous to believe that a castle that would require a support staff of hundreds of people to maintain (chefs to feed everyone, painters and masons renovating it, servants dusting rooms, etc) and hundreds of other innocents (pencil pusher bureaucrats who make the government function, people visiting the castle to get the government to do something for them, etc) would have all been evacuated on short notice without the army noticing. The castle is expliticly empty of Domans for the most part actually, because Yotsuyu does not trust them nor want them in her home (remember she lives there). It's a military encapment of the occupying Garleans, the Domans who used to live there were moved out before that to an enclave and are being used as hostages against the revolutionaries. Mordiceius posted:Hien is a himbo hth That the game expects you to consider some great statesman and leader ready to make personal sacrifice for his people, that's the point of the flooding to an extent. Hien sacrificing his own future home (because it is where he'd live, it's his families imperial home) to ensure victory. But the victory was already ensured by the previous plan this is just him making a statement because he can.
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Oct 17, 2021 06:07
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Cleretic posted:The loss of Doma Castle is a tragedy, but it's a tragedy because of the loss of history, not a loss of life (since, again, there are no innocents in there at the time). And the fact it's actually the Domans making the decision stops it really going on the 'war crimes' docket. My problem is he didn't need to sink the castle, it's a completely meaningless gesture. There was no questioning of the success of the original plan, the only addition the flooding gives is that it makes it impossible for the Garleans to effectively evacuate, pinning them in to be captured or killed. I actually don't think he's a good Lord, I think he's an okay one but this plus some of his later stuff really soured me on his leadership skills in a way that makes me very frustrated, because I definitely do like the guy and his introduction arc in the Steppes is really good and clever. As I said this has been gone over in the main thread but my read on Hien is he much prefers the simple life to politics, and is possibly even just kind of bad at politics because of that.
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Oct 17, 2021 06:15
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Cleretic posted:My read on Hien is that he is good at politics, but it's not necessarily our politics. Remember that most of his life was actually on the Azim Steppe, learning from tribes that largely solve disputes with combat. This makes him actually reasonably good at the politics of war, and likely is going to lead to an era of stability in Doma when it desperately needs that; there's not a chance in hell that the Empire are going to come back to Doma, while in contrast Ala Mhigo actually is still having to fight the guys back up until very recently. And yeah, his initiative to set up the Eastern Alliance and help nations like Bozja is actually going to do a lot more to liberate the people not just from current occupation, but from the fears of future occupation. Oh absolutely not, I like Hien. I think he's fine, I just soured on him a good deal because of how he handles well, everything, around Yotsuyu and Asahi, as well as looking back at his decisions with flooding the castle and living out in the Azim Steppe and having Yugiri find "the Heart of Doma" to convince him that he should come back and lead a rebellion. His forging of the Othardian Alliance helped a bunch on this front too, because it was a return to him being the character I liked in the Azim Steppe.
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Oct 17, 2021 06:32
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Cleretic posted:Imagine being promoted not just out of what you can do well, but specifically because you'd be bad at your new job. Kind of, Zenos expected two potential outcomes and both would satisfy him. On a personal level, her mistreatment of the Doma leading to a rebellion with a strong beast for him to hunt would satisfy, on an impersonal/imperial level her mistreatment would grind their national spirit to dust and leave the incapable of rebellion which would also satisfy him. I think post death and resurrection he focuses on the hunt to the exclusion of all else because in part he's lost all interest in everything else after meeting his best friend. Remember he's described as an excellent battlefield tactician in his conquests as well as a somewhat cunning if cruel ruler. But he throws that aside when he has someone or something to hunt because whilst he's good at those things he doesn't care about them more than he cares about personal strength and satisfaction especially now that he's actually found what he wanted in his beast (the WoL).
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Oct 17, 2021 09:02
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Argas posted:Shinryu has legs, just also has a long body It’s most notable in Extreme Shinryu thanks to the final phase. But to be honest it’s a pretty visually awful phase because Shinryu is just too drat big to fight his feet/body and have it feel okay visually .
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Oct 17, 2021 18:08
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Zandar posted:Yeah, but presumably the first time they get called out of their shard for an extended period they have to pop their soul out of their body and leave it to die. That’s only Lahabrea Elidibus and Emet-Selch. The rest of the convocation got split up, and they’re somehow ascended by the still whole trio. There’s basically three tiers of Ascians. The trio who are still their original whole souls, who do the Sahagin Priest thing with their completed soul. The rest of the convocation, who might have some sort of soul deal, but mostly appear to be getting the memories of their original selves installed onto one of the new fragmented souls, imagine if the WoL or Ardbert got the memories of Azem installed, maybe there’s a soul or some Zodiark magic involved. Lastly are generic Ascians, presumably non-convocation members whose memories/souls are awakened by the Convocation as assistants and servants/soldiers. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 12:37 on Oct 18, 2021 |
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Oct 18, 2021 12:30
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:The other convocation members could do that too. That’s what the white auracite was needed for - to trap them long enough they couldn’t pop into their zodiark zone or another body. Huh, I guess Lahabrea, Elidibus and Emet must have collected enough, or even just one, fragment(s) of the other convocations souls and are using that. Weird though because I thought part of the deal with the lesser convocation is they actually need to find the people whose souls were originally part of that convocation member. That's honestly a bit of a weird detail that the fact that only 3 of the Convocation are whole kind of muddles. I guess the only real example we have of a convocation soul inhabiting a body without over-taking it is Gaia, but I'm pretty sure she's meant to be like the WoL in that she's a fractured part of the original convocation member. I also wouldn't 100% trust that the White Auracite is working the way it is theorised to, given Emet lasted long enough to help against Elidibus and Lahabrea (whilst not White Auracited, was trapped and devoured to fuel a primal) is somehow relevant in the upcoming Pandemonium raids. I thought the implication of the Shadowbringers revelations and the memory stones we collect is that Lahabrea Emet and Elidibus (and likely mostly Elidibus given he's a Primal anyway) find an acceptable soul match for the other members of the convocation and used the crystals to awaken the memories of their soul which then causes the Ascian to become tempered and work with them. Fandaniel presumably had something go wrong and that's why he's the way he is.
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Oct 18, 2021 15:36
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Cleretic posted:Yes, that is exactly what happened. And whatever went wrong with Fancy Dan was something that went wrong with the crystal itself; there's clearly something up with it, since his is the only one whose memories are disparate fragments rather than a full statement. Right, although the Thordan thing is supposed to be fine, as that's what permanently killed the Sahagin Priest who was the inspiration for the White Auracite plan. Lahabrea specifically got absorbed into the Eye of Nidhogg, and then that was further completely drained to make Shinryu. He's even called out in one of the side story/encyclopedias as even more gone than the White Auracite Ascians because he's been devoured instead of just having his soul properly killed instead of escaping into the Rift.
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Oct 18, 2021 16:04
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One of the online short stories for Shadowbringers actually has that moment from Emet’s perspective. He was watching us from the afterlife anyway, just on the edge between life and death. He pops out to summon us and then finally passes on. Not helped by the English translation being ambiguous but the Japanese translation making it clear that Emet was not dead fully until after he fades away during that bit. This one specifically. Emet-Selch’s English poetry posted:Now my charms are all o'erthrown, “Emet-Selch’s original poetry bluntly translated” posted:今、私の魔法はすべて破れ。 Which suggests to me that we didn’t really summon him of our own volition so much as he used the summon to pop out and summon us back. If we summoned him I think we’d have just summoned him to the rift with us.
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Oct 18, 2021 16:32
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Chillgamesh posted:It bugs me that he says they're enervated and weakened copies of the original unsundered ancients, but everything in game seems to indicate there isn't really much difference between a person from a shard and a person from the Source despite them having so much more soul real estate. I suspect that's probably the point, though. I mean, Emet-Selch is massively stronger and more capable than anyone else we ever meet in terms of what he does. He recreated all of Amaurot including all the people. Which the Scions straight up cannot even fathom is possible for a normal mortal. Sure he's a member of the convocation, but well, he's stillt he only remaining unsundered we really get a look at and he doesn't make himself out as anything particularly special in terms of capability, just duties/responsibilities. Elidibus is harder to consider because he's a primal, and we don't get enough of Lahabrea in terms of what he can do as an Unsundered to really consider his capabilities, the story going out of it's way to say he's gone mad from how often he was inhabiting mortals and dying and coming back. And now I realise you're talking about the difference between the Source and the Shards, and my main thought on that is that it isn't actually empowering just the Source whenever a rejoining happens, the soul juice is being split amongst the rest of the shards actually, and the Ascians just aren't paying enough attention to realise that. In any case yeah, the Shards and Source aren't in fact meant to be meaningfully different in power levels. But the 14 shards and the original whole are, and Emet-Selch easily shows us how.
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Oct 20, 2021 16:29
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Chillgamesh posted:I'm starting to think Emet-Selch surviving the Sundering had less to do with him being powerful and more with his specific ability to read souls and aether. There has to be a specific reason why he's the only one that made it through intact, when the only other two survivors were corpse-on-strings Elidibus and janky-rear end Lahabrea. Lahabrea is mentioned to have been a lot more sane and like Emet-Selch back at the start, he's crazy now because he threw himself into the active part of their mechanisms. So when Emet was sleeping for thousands of years Lahabrea was managing the day to day operations and also dying again and again and again and again. That's why he's so far off his rocker comparitively. Elidibus survived presumably because Zodiark survived and they're technically the same being. Lahabrea and Emet are a big loving mystery, although it might get answered in the next expansion what with the raid being about Lahabrea. Everyone else was shattered into 14 parts. Nessus posted:I thought he had avoided self-sacrifice because he was kind of shepherding everyone's souls so that in principle they could eventually be reborn again, although this does somewhat conflict with the prospect of uplifted Ascians being reincarnations of those people. Maybe he just had a bunch of soul crystal-equivalents. Yeah, the Unsundered are continuous experiences from their lives as the Ascians in the Convocation, Emet slept and got depression, Lahabrea did not sleep and got crazy (also it's worth noting that the Ascian who messed up with the thirteenth shard (World of Darkness) is implied to have been Lahabrea's romantic partner in the same way Mitron and Lohgrif were, so that's probably part of why Lahabrea is so intent on personally managing the rejoinings and such), Elidibus forgot poo poo and is technically a Primal's Heart anyway. The rest of the Convocation got split into 14 soul shards, and those shards each were being reincarnated on the Source and the Shards. Gaia is as noted a reincarnation of a part of Lohgrif's soul, whoever Eden's Mitron was was a fragment of Mitron (and one Emet was okay with losing because the First was being rejoined anyway and they could always find a different Mitron Shard), the WoL we play as is a fragment of Azem. A big deal is that it's pretty much likely that a bunch of people still have Ascian Soul Shards, and the Echo is the result of it being awakened when they get soul memories of the Final Days for any reason. Meanwhile the Unsundered and the Sundered Convocation members were somehow capable of awakening Ascian Souls as followers who they used as minions and "starter villains" for their whole play both sides plotting that Elidibus conceived. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Oct 20, 2021 |
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Oct 20, 2021 17:13
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Argas posted:imo the main element we see of unsundered people being stronger is Emet-Selch, and he also has the whole immortal being thing in play so it's also vague. It's been stated that what was really damaging Lahabrea was dying over and over again without rest, so my guess is even though they escape a part of their soul ends up lost each time. The Sundered don't possess people because they don't really exist, the Unsundered (and alongside them the active Sundered) activate them via memory infusion that awakens the original Ancient from a fragment of their soul, but it's still the fragment inside the body. Presumably as a courtesy they only do it one at a time, but Mitron in the Eden raid series outright says he's been left the way he has because another Mitron can be awakened (who will likely not remember being Eden). Gaia basically was going to lose her own memories to gain the memories of Lohgrif, but once that Loghrif died they'd need to find another shard and awaken it. It's also possible the loss isn't necessary to gain but it seems implied to be the case.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:02
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Jetrauben posted:I still think a big aspect of soul "density" is how receptive the owner is to external aetherial manipulation. People from the First seem a lot easier to turn/temper/corrupt into Sin Eaters or other aetherial mutants. This would make sense, more aether means it's harder to re-shape the entirety of their Aether. So someone from the First with a small density is easier to completely turn to Light, compared to the Source where the full effects of Aetherial reshaping only really happens in extreme situations (Leviathan can turn people into sea monsters with enough water aether alignment for example). Neatly also explains the Dragons and Ascians experience of Tempering by Bahamut/Zodiark compared to everyone else's experience of tempering. Their massive stores of Aether mean the amount changed by the tempering is relatively small.
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Oct 20, 2021 18:22
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Jetrauben posted:I'd assumed that they'd fought their way through the gauntlet of Beasts and lesser terminus spawn to cast their great ritual of sacrifice. I thought it was what they could see from inside the capitol as they desperately performed their ritual, hoping the beasts didn't break in before it was done as the world collapsed around them.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:11
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Jetrauben posted:The final area of Amaurot is also interesting, because it does clearly imply that the Ancients had some sort of space capability - the shattered fragments of crystal are, what, remnants of an orbital platform? Or just an orbital ritual site to imbue the entire Star with a will? Could be Emet-Selch making a dramaticisation of the end of days that could have happened if not for their actions in summoning Zodiark. The planet looks really destroyed relative to the rest of the dungeon. But also we're probably exploring Amaurotian stuff on the moon in this upcoming expansion.
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Oct 20, 2021 19:15
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Nessus posted:The Ancients might also have been able to beat any given calamity beast with their Stands and so forth, but a. panicking while using their magics compounded the problem and b. there were new beasts every day and probably fewer ancients every day. I'm pretty sure part of the problem was their summoning magics creating more beasts instead of helping to protect from the beasts, thanks to their panic plus the sound messing with their creation magics (which is also the bit about everyone on the planet being like the Amaurotians, as the sound started away from the city and messed with their summoning magics and was encroaching on the city over time).
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Oct 20, 2021 19:24
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| # ¿ May 9, 2024 15:38 |
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Hydaelyn was summoned to stop Zodiark, but it's plausible that Venat is making sure she doesn't drain the land of Aether (although that in of itself is a part of the fact that the people of the Source don't have the Aetherial Density/Stores to self-fuel a Summoning of a Primal, and the Ascians intentionally teach a lovely version of summoning).
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Oct 21, 2021 04:42
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