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Do you think we need to make some changes to CC?
This poll is closed.
Yes, we need to change a bunch of things 2 7.69%
Yes, one or two things could be improved 10 38.46%
No, it's great and I love it 5 19.23%
I am a meat watermelon 9 34.62%
Total: 26 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
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  • Reply
sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Hi there creative goons!

This is a great subforum and I love how much talent it holds in its C-shaped arms. But I’ve been wondering if we can make it better.

My feeling is that there are two issues; i wouldn’t go so far as to call them problems.

The first is that posters generally sit in their threads, like thunderdome, pixel art, or the tablet threads (picking three at random).

The second is that the sub itself is underused. Posting a thread is not likely to get a huge amount of attention. Party this is because it’s not a high traffic sub, but I also think this is a flow on from the first issue.

Those are the two issues on my mind, but I’d also like to hear about anything else you think should change or could be better.

This is an open thread to talk about ways we could make it a better place to creative poo poo done. If there’s something you don’t wanna post openly, feel free to pm me, SoundMonkey or idiot queen Sitting Here.

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Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007
My thoughts:

1) We have too many stickies, Seb. It's out of control.

2) People tend to post standalone threads for their projects and get ignored. We (Mod and IK) could be more proactive about directing other posters to individual threads. There could also be a clearer procedure for getting your thread noticed (linking it in the creative chat thread, daily drawing thread, fiction advice thread, and so on, maybe).

3) It would be fun to have cross-subforum events. GBS seems like the best place to host something like that, though I understand if some people don't like to post there.

I am really curious as to what suggestions people have. I don't spend as much time in the art threads (which is something I need to commit to being better about) but overall CC seems pretty harmonious. I think there are a ton of brilliant people here and it's one of the best places online to get crits for whatever you're making—if other goons notice it, which is a huge caveat.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









yeah, I have unstuck a few threads and might do more, there are some underused threads and very busy threads that don't need them.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
I think CC is a tough forum to get people to post in regularly for two reasons:

1) Art takes time and energy to make which limits how many posts people will make on a daily basis. This causes the forum to look a kind of dead outside of a few hub threads.

2) We have a bit of a reputation for being hardasses. This is a good thing for experienced artists who understand how critique works and want unfiltered feedback but for art noobs it can be incredibly intimidating.


As for how to fix it? Well that's a tough one because I'm one of those people who like the current vibe. Here's what I have off the top of my head:

1) Be a *bit* more hugboxy (that's still a word people use, right). Encourage people to post more "bad" art (which is often not as bad as people think) and save critique for when it's explicitly requested or for threads where it's expected. We should still be honest when asked for feedback but also encouraging, particularly with newer artists.

2) Create some threads geared towards art noobs that encourage humor and creativity over raw technical proficiency (which is honestly more valuable early on anyways). For example, I've had an idea for a while now for a fanart thread that's geared less towards finished professional work (though that would be welcome) and more at mspaint-tier shitposts that anybody is capable of making. I think there's actually a lot of creative people who'd have great stuff to contribute but they don't because they don't consider what they do to be "art" per se. Something intentionally geared towards "crap" would be a great honeypot of sorts which could then be used to pull people into the more serious threads once they realize we won't bite. Basically, we need some low-risk threads that take 15 minutes to contribute to, not 15 hours.

3) I agree that we need to find some way to push people into the individual project threads. I can speak from experience that creating one is really intimidating because you are opening yourself up to negative feedback but at the same time probably not going to get much return for your risk in the form of eyes on your work. Maybe we could encourage people to post links to the individual project threads in the hub threads or even have a hub thread dedicated to reviewing goon projects.

4) Sitting Here's idea of cross-forum events is a good one. Perhaps certain threads could periodically migrate to other forums for short periods of time if it seems like something that forum would be into. So for example we could move Daily Doodles to GBS for a couple weeks and let the people there go nuts as long as they relatively stay nice about it. We could also migrate goon project threads in a similar way if one comes along that's particularly promising.

5) We have a Wacom thread but maybe also have a general art tools discussion thread where we can discuss preferred brands of paintbrushes or whatnot? I'd start it myself but I don't have the bandwidth to manage more threads at the moment.

6) Have a thread for posting actual smut? Artists are horny loving bastards so it could bring in a lot of traffic I suppose.

Hope that helps.

crabrock
Aug 2, 2002

I

AM

MAGNIFICENT






Can you do forum-specific sticky notes? It'd be neat if when I was reading one of the few threads I've bookmarked there was a little banner at the top once or twice a month that was like "hey cool new stuff you might have missed!: "

Flavius Aetass
Mar 30, 2011
I know that this subforum has been slow for a while now but just to add my two cents

I'm sure I'm not alone in simply not having the emotional energy in the past several months to make art

Anything that could be done to form a system of positive encouragement would probably get people more involved

Shinmera
Mar 25, 2013

I make games!

Maybe having something like the byob banner ads could help bring some more traffic to CC?

steeltoedsneakers
Jul 26, 2016





Flavius Aetass posted:

I'm sure I'm not alone in simply not having the emotional energy in the past several months to make art

heckin yes. it's a lovely time to drag yourself into the artmines, even if it would be a healthy outlet.

i second readingatwork's call for low-risk, high output threads (Soundmonkey's Low Effort Terrible Photo Dump is a pretty great model..) but I'm also a fan of the straight-talking crit approach that permeates a few of the threads like TD.

Leng
May 13, 2006

One song / Glory
One song before I go / Glory
One song to leave behind


No other road
No other way
No day but today
I'm a new poster to CC (I normally post in BFC or TBB) and have been mostly lurking the self-publishing and fiction writing threads while getting ready to post a NaNoWriMo project thread. CC might inherently be a slower/lower activity forum and I don't know that it can be helped. Creative endeavours take time, critiques take time, and everyone's only got so much time to give.

As a newcomer, the main issue with CC is that threads are mostly organized by art form. This probably makes sense from an intuitive standpoint, but if CC's purpose is focused on getting creative stuff done, then there's only 3 main types of threads: project threads (by individual posters), craft threads (discussing the technical specifics of creating whatever art) and daily chat threads.

But what happens if your art form doesn't have an existing thread? I'm currently having trouble finishing the second act of a musical, but I don't know where to post:
  • Book problems are generally issues with character, plot or dramatic structure, so the same principles apply across fiction writing, screenwriting and stage plays. But there's no general thread like that. There was a TV/Film Screenwriting thread which is the art form closest to theatre but it died 2 years ago. The only thread I could post in and hope to have a reasonable chance of getting an answer would be the Fiction Writing advice thread, but that thread is so specific to fiction writing I would be off topic.
  • Lyric problems are similar to poetry, but on top of the usual technical aspects of poetry, lyrics need to advance either character or plot and preferably both. The only active poetry thread I could find was Poem Dome, which isn't for that purpose. A songwriting thread (doesn't exist) would come closest, except most songwriters are posting in Musician's Lounge (usually as project threads, or in share awesome things threads)
  • Score problems are a headache and a half in themselves. Musician's Lounge is full of threads organized by instrument, and focused on gear and music production. The closest thread I could go to for a score critique would be the Music Theory thread which seems to be where the composers hang out, but again, it would be off topic. It would be weird to post a project thread in Musician's Lounge, because while it might get attention from composers, it seems off topic for Musician's Lounge, because it's actually a creative endeavour, which means I should be posting in CC, but I don't think the composers hang out here.

I could post my own thread in CC but it's not likely to get traffic or responses, so I don't end up posting at all.

If there was a theatre or stage play thread, I would probably be very active in that thread. That said, I don't know that there IS a need for a musical theatre specific thread (other than as a chat/appreciation thread which wouldn't fit in CC) because the kind of help I usually need (trying to figure out a character's arc, trying to figure out why my 11 o'clock number isn't landing) can be given by anyone who's got a good sense of story structure, not just someone who writes musicals.

Sitting Here posted:

3) It would be fun to have cross-subforum events. GBS seems like the best place to host something like that, though I understand if some people don't like to post there.

readingatwork posted:

3) I agree that we need to find some way to push people into the individual project threads. I can speak from experience that creating one is really intimidating because you are opening yourself up to negative feedback but at the same time probably not going to get much return for your risk in the form of eyes on your work. Maybe we could encourage people to post links to the individual project threads in the hub threads or even have a hub thread dedicated to reviewing goon projects.

4) Sitting Here's idea of cross-forum events is a good one. Perhaps certain threads could periodically migrate to other forums for short periods of time if it seems like something that forum would be into. So for example we could move Daily Doodles to GBS for a couple weeks and let the people there go nuts as long as they relatively stay nice about it. We could also migrate goon project threads in a similar way if one comes along that's particularly promising.

The best way to get people into project threads is to make them cross forum events with the related appreciation forum for that type of project. For example, maybe there could be a "WANTED: beta readers" thread that sits in Book Barn, where CC posters can post a short description of their novel, genre, what kind of feedback they're looking for and a link to their project thread for TBB posters. Or something similar for film projects in CineD. It's pretty common for someone who starts off appreciating an art form to get into creating it, so it could have the effect of getting more people wanting to make awesome stuff.

That said, I think I'd prefer in-progress project threads stay in CC where CC rules apply, rather than being migrated out to other forums. Creating something is hard, putting it out there for critique is harder, and learning how to accept critique is hardest of all. If my NaNoWriMo project thread got moved into TBB where everyone's expecting polished publication ready work when I'm posting early self-edited drafts that probably shouldn't see the light of day, I'd almost certainly abandon the thread and (potentially not) finish my project while crying by myself in the dark because of flat characters, lack of an interesting hook, terrible prose, etc etc etc.

Once a work is finished though, it'd be nice to get it cross posted to the other forums (with a link back to the project thread for anyone curious as to how it developed).

Leng fucked around with this message at 07:57 on Oct 3, 2020

Neon Noodle
Nov 11, 2016

there's nothing wrong here in montana
I use my bookmarks so exclusively (and my interests are kind of narrow), so I don’t even know about community-level stuff without a post like you made in each thread. I’m more likely to be in crafting/DIY threads than in writing-based ones cause I’m illiterate.

womb with a view
Sep 8, 2007

I really like these, I pretty much don't post in CC at all because I'm not confident enough but do find what people discuss interesting and helpful. So some low-stakes crap posting would be right up my alley.

Papa Was A Video Toaster
Jan 9, 2011





This is minor and kinda off topic, but as someone who cut his teeth on avatar remixes not being able to go back to that well with the current forum ownership uncertainties is a bummer. I don't know what modmin is giving out certs, so I've just been holding off and hoping Jeff gets it soon so I can use it as a site fundraiser again.
I bet that if I brought some new styles and techniques to bear and posted it here we'd see some eyeballs.

Edit: semi-relatedly it's a weird time to tell new users to join. I have like at least two people I would want to post here, but not until lowtax's name is off it.

Papa Was A Video Toaster fucked around with this message at 16:46 on Oct 3, 2020

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
This won’t fix the new user issue but I know some mods are handing out avatars for free in exchange for donations to good causes. We could implement something like that while we wait for the sale of the site to go through.

gmc9987
Jul 25, 2007
I feel like many of the issues just stem from the fact that there's just not enough traffic here in general to keep things moving at the same pace as, say, GBS. I think that any changes made should be with that in mind.

I might get some negative feedback on this, but I feel like the Daily Drawings and Doodles thread might be better off being a Daily Artwork Thread. I see questions from time to time from people who wonder if posting sculpture or some other form of art is OK in there, and most posters generally say, "Sure, go ahead and :justpost:." The DDD thread is one of the highest-traffic ones here, and there aren't really enough users interested in sculpture or other art forms outside of drawing and writing to support a Daily Sculpture Thread, so making it more obvious that the DDD thread is welcoming to any and all forms of visual art (especially ones not popular enough to support their own threads) might get more people posting. Perhaps explicitly opening up the Art Dome thread to other forms of visual art could help too, Art Dome is fun as hell even though I only ever submitted something once and had to bow out because of real-life issues like 5 times.

My impression when I check the subform itself, and not my long-standing bookmarks (I am a lot like Neon Noodle in that regard) is that the majority of the threads (and most of the posts) are about writing, the DDD and Art Dome thread are updated fairly frequently but threads about individual user-specific projects get very little traffic unless they are writing related. I'm not sure how to fix this necessarily but that's the impression that I get.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe

gmc9987 posted:

Perhaps explicitly opening up the Art Dome thread to other forms of visual art could help too, Art Dome is fun as hell even though I only ever submitted something once and had to bow out because of real-life issues like 5 times.

General speaking all forms of visual art are valid submissions unless the prompt explicitly says otherwise. That said I totally support making this more explicit. Specific prompts for other media like woodcuts or sculpture would also be rad, though that’s something that would happen at the prompt maker’s discretion. I’ll float the idea in the thread though so it’s at least in the back of people’s minds.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









TVsVeryOwn posted:

This is minor and kinda off topic, but as someone who cut his teeth on avatar remixes not being able to go back to that well with the current forum ownership uncertainties is a bummer. I don't know what modmin is giving out certs, so I've just been holding off and hoping Jeff gets it soon so I can use it as a site fundraiser again.
I bet that if I brought some new styles and techniques to bear and posted it here we'd see some eyeballs.

Edit: semi-relatedly it's a weird time to tell new users to join. I have like at least two people I would want to post here, but not until lowtax's name is off it.

Contact me for avs and things: current practice is just post proof of a :10bux: donation to a worthy cause.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.
How about like, themed art jam threads. Or we do an idiot contest and the winnder decides what color the forum is

Maugrim
Feb 16, 2011

I eat your face
This is more of a forum wide suggestion that would encourage cross pollination, but I don't know where I'd post it, so -

So many people use their bookmarks almost exclusively that I think there'd be mileage in leaning into that, and introducing (actual, non-joke, multiple) thread tags and an algorithm using those to display "other threads that might interest you" as a section within the bookmarks page.

Example, I stumbled on Poemdome a few months back but it has since died from lack of users. It would have been a good candidate to advertise via suggested threads to Thunderdome regulars - it caught my interest because I don't have time or energy to write a story every week but a poem is doable.

Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007
So here is some stuff I'm thinking we could do based on what people are saying:

1) As far as cross-forum participation goes, I don't know if it would be a good idea to move existing, long-standing threads to big, busy forums. I was thinking something along the lines of doing one-off art or writing (or whatever) contests in GBS with the goal of linking back here to get people to share their stuff in CC, too.

2) Before we do that, we could make a catch-all lovely/casual/fan art thread. That thread could periodically have informal prompts and other fun stuff, with the emphasis being on :justpost: rather than any particular feedback. I think the important thing in that case is to have an OP that sets an inviting tone with good example images.

3) As far as driving traffic to project threads goes, I'm not really sure if there is a way to streamline that. Someone mentioned that they notice writing threads tend to get more responses; that is generally because there are people who link to those threads in Discord or the fiction advice thread. Maugrim mentioned the poem dome being of interest to Thunderdomers. Same deal there, a bunch of TD people were pretty invested in propping it up, but to keep something like that consistently going you need a bigger pool of contributors. Thunderdome has over like 700 unique contributors over 8 years, and we manage maybe 5-20 entrants most weeks. I think poetry is just a harder sell for a lot of writers. This thought process brings me to...

4) How many CC Discord/off-site chats are there? Is it worth creating one big multi-discipline server? The CC writing community is pretty robust, and that is largely because we have a very active chat community. I understand the caveats surrounding offsite communities, but it's a fast way to link people up with new threads and doesn't require changes to our trash golem forums technology. In lieu of a CC Discord, I think it would be cool if we made a habit of linking new threads in the creative chat thread. That seems to be the thread with the most overlap from all the different disciplines. Sebmojo and I obviously should and will take the lead on that, but we are only human and not even that effective as humans tbh so it would be cool if we all agreed to link new threads there if we see them and have a moment to do so.

If I can get on a little soapbox for a moment, I think that goons supply some of the best feedback on the internet. The primary goal is to get more people looking at more threads, and to create threads that are inviting to more people. But secondary to that, I would like to make sure that our particularly incisive, no-bullshit brand of critique is still accessible to people if anything happened to SA.

FunkyAl posted:

How about like, themed art jam threads. Or we do an idiot contest and the winnder decides what color the forum is

Stuff like this is honestly really fun and i think we should do more of it. More monthly contests or contests for stupid stuff in general would also be fun.

Angrymog
Jan 30, 2012

Really Madcats

I created a new Art discord in March (I think) after getting tired of the old GDN one a) being neglected by its mod, and b) that mod not even being taking part in the art threads

Tempus Thales who runs the GDN banned me from the old one so I don't know what's happening there now.

For the record I think that TT is pretty wierd, he just likes running Discords for the sake of running Discords

fauna
Dec 6, 2018


Caught between two worlds...
nvm

fauna fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Oct 4, 2020

Shinmera
Mar 25, 2013

I make games!

The new goon art discord is great, probably the discord I'm most engaged with overall, even.

Walks
Sep 11, 2006

:dukedog:
Something more casual would be good, I got some great feedback on some things I posted awhile ago but following advice and going back to square one and fighting my way back got me super burnt out. Trying to get motivated to even art again is an uphill battle at the moment.

Seconding the goon art discord, even if I don't chat much. Great place and love seeing all the art posted all the time.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe

Sitting Here posted:

So here is some stuff I'm thinking we could do based on what people are saying:

1) As far as cross-forum participation goes, I don't know if it would be a good idea to move existing, long-standing threads to big, busy forums. I was thinking something along the lines of doing one-off art or writing (or whatever) contests in GBS with the goal of linking back here to get people to share their stuff in CC, too.

Yeah, this might be a better approach now that you mention it.

quote:

2) Before we do that, we could make a catch-all lovely/casual/fan art thread. That thread could periodically have informal prompts and other fun stuff, with the emphasis being on :justpost: rather than any particular feedback. I think the important thing in that case is to have an OP that sets an inviting tone with good example images.

I might go ahead and create this since I've wanted to do it anyways and it wouldn't be like the Artdome where the OP needs constant maintenance. Though the tone I had in mind was more "Post your fanart you bastards! DO IT!". I just need some time to create a couple (incredibly bad/weird) examples to get the ball rolling.


Shinmera posted:

The new goon art discord is great, probably the discord I'm most engaged with overall, even.

Same. I mostly lurk (and host a Mini-Artdome) at the moment but it's been fantastic.

readingatwork fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Oct 4, 2020

gmc9987
Jul 25, 2007

readingatwork posted:

General speaking all forms of visual art are valid submissions unless the prompt explicitly says otherwise. That said I totally support making this more explicit. Specific prompts for other media like woodcuts or sculpture would also be rad, though that’s something that would happen at the prompt maker’s discretion. I’ll float the idea in the thread though so it’s at least in the back of people’s minds.

I've never seen anyone, ever, in either Artdome or DDD get bent out of shape from someone asking if a thing was OK to post. Specifically, I'd like to add that you in particular have done a really great job of being welcoming and friendly in all the interactions I've seen you post in this subform. But yeah, the question comes up enough, and "daily drawings and doodles" does seem to imply a, er, focus on one type of artwork so changing the names and being more up-front about all forms of visual art being welcome would be a good change.

readingatwork posted:

I might go ahead and create this since I've wanted to do it anyways and it wouldn't be like the Artdome where the OP needs constant maintenance. Though the tone I had in mind was more "Post your fanart you bastards! DO IT!". I just need some time to create a couple (incredibly bad/weird) examples to get the ball rolling.

I have some fan art I'd like to contribute to that thread, if you ever get it started.

Pennsylvanian
May 23, 2010

Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky Independent Presidential Regiment
Western Liberal Democracy or Death!
Speaking as someone who's largely lurked this forum since I reg'd, I guess I have a few things I'd like to throw out there:

1) Thread titles seem like nonsense sometimes. I've skipped over lots of threads that I otherwise would have been interested in because it's something like "Goonles drawfun shebigbag 2019: Now with more Penskils!" or something, and it causes my eyes to glaze over. It's gotten better over time, but some threads still don't tell you what they actually are, sometimes.

2) Second on just letting some people screw around and give some positive support. I bet there's some Goon in another sub who'd love to just gently caress around somewhere without worrying about being judged.

3) Maybe a monthly writing contest/thread? I know those are everywhere, but most writing contests are usually just "post a short story or a novel excerpt with a cliffhanger." But this is SA- we could have people coming in to try their hand at writing articles like we'd see on the frontpage.

Pennsylvanian fucked around with this message at 19:12 on Oct 8, 2020

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Thank you to everyone so far for your thoughts and suggestions, keep them coming. I like what i've heard and I think there's already plenty for us to do there. I'll leave this up for a few more days.

In terms of writing contests, we have the very long running thunderdome thread which is ~1000 word stories and we have tried for longer stuff in the past, but getting a mechanism that avoids 90% of people signing up at the beginning then bailing out at the end is an interesting problem. You need a largeish population for the thread and a culture that's both supportive and that treats failure to submit as a little shameful, which is a lot to ask.

Definitely keen on a low effort thread for people who have been intimidated into staying away, and also up for cross forum marketing and challenges.

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Oct 8, 2020

crabrock
Aug 2, 2002

I

AM

MAGNIFICENT






is there a way to submit banner ads with a charity donation instead of subsidizing domestic abuse?

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Good qn I'll ask

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk









Answer is yes, just make sure you follow all the size requirements on the store page then give me a link to the image and I'll get it uploaded.

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
Fanart thread is up!

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3943694

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea
Agree with the 'wacky' thread titles getting nixed.

Someone earlier mentioned the place needs to be more hugboxy and I very much disagree with that, I just think there needs to be a clearer division between 'i'm posting this because I made it and I'm proud of it, but I'm going to keep going at my own pace' and 'i've worked on this for so long I cant see the forest for the trees, flay the poo poo out of it please'

I get the sense that some people hold back on posting very clear, direct and bullet point level feedback - which is super important to many people trying to make a career out of art, but often doesn't get posted because nobody knows if it's welcome or not. When someone does do a markup of someone else's work it's preceded with things like 'I really hope you don't mind that I did this!!'
And then even when it does, it can also intimidate newcomers into posting at all because they simply don't want that level of analysis performed - which I think is what the poster was getting at with the hugboxy comment.
An art critique thread where markups, sketchovers and clear but firm discussion on what doesn't work, interpretations of theorey etc would be much appreciated to balance things out. I was posting in this forum back when that was much more common - and the critque went a little far at times, but we had what seemed like an insanely high concentration of experienced professional working artists actively posting and helping each other. We've lost a little bit of that over time.

If we're going to roll all general / daily art threads into one, having a 'just post' and a 'bring critique' divide would work well.

MockingQuantum
Jan 20, 2012



I think the "hugboxy" suggestion was pretty in line with what you're talking about, it seems like it was suggesting a defined space where people could post whatever without worry that they'd get called out for being bad at art or whatever.

I do agree that there's no harm in making the purpose of any particular thread pretty explicit, and making it clear that if you post in thread x you're tacitly welcoming feedback. To use Thunderdome as a point of comparison, it's pretty explicit that if you enter, you will be judged and you will get critique. There's also the tacit rule (which, admittedly, isn't stated explicitly in the OP, but is a pretty deeply ingrained part of the culture) that anyone can crit anyone's work without asking permission to do so. I think that's a big value of TD, and is also sort of an equalizer-- even someone who entered for the first time could have some trenchant insight into what works or doesn't work about someone else's story, and the fact that they're new shouldn't be, and isn't, a barrier to them offering that critique.

I think that's something that's worth formalizing, even if it's just determined on a thread-by-thread basis. I do think something you touched on is important: if it's not clear whether critique is welcome, you end up with a lot of critique that's couched in language that's intended to soften the potential blow, or have people apologizing before/after offering critique, all of which tends to diminish the usefulness of the critique or have a chilling effect on discussion of how to improve. That's one of the other strengths of Thunderdome, imo. There's a general acceptance that you may enter a story that will get ripped to shreds, but it's understood that it's getting ripped to shreds to show you how to improve, and that the critique is for your benefit, and not a reflection on anybody's opinion of you. That sort of atmosphere takes some fostering and intention.

cubicle gangster
Jun 26, 2005

magda, make the tea

MockingQuantum posted:

I think the "hugboxy" suggestion was pretty in line with what you're talking about, it seems like it was suggesting a defined space where people could post whatever without worry that they'd get called out for being bad at art or whatever.

I think that's something that's worth formalizing, even if it's just determined on a thread-by-thread basis. I do think something you touched on is important: if it's not clear whether critique is welcome, you end up with a lot of critique that's couched in language that's intended to soften the potential blow, or have people apologizing before/after offering critique, all of which tends to diminish the usefulness of the critique or have a chilling effect on discussion of how to improve.

yeah - fair - it's not even a long thread and I posted from memory of reading it this morning. totally agree with soft language critique being a detriment.

MockingQuantum
Jan 20, 2012



One other thing that may help in specific situations with the soft language/pulled punches critique is giving posters a clear way to offer critique. In other art communities I've been a part of, one of the most common hurdles that's prevented relative newcomers from offering critique is that they don't always know the best way to offer the critique, or even what constitutes useful feedback. Like someone shared a critique format a while back for Thunderdome and occasionally it'll still pop up in critiques. I don't remember the exact format but it was basically a critique outline:

-What the story was about:

-Character:

-Setting:

-What worked:

-What didn't:


Or something to that effect. Sometimes even just having a go-to format can really help people to organize their thoughts and feel confident they're saying something useful, which will encourage more people to offer feedback. In my experience, more people offering critiques tends to feed back into the cycle--they get better at taking feedback and incorporating it into their own work, they feel invested in the community and the back-and-forth process, they contribute more, all of which helps to bring people into the fold, so to speak. The more newcomers feel empowered to contribute to the discussion, and the more varied names they see in any given thread, the more likely they are to speak up or look for feedback on their own work.

Papa Was A Video Toaster
Jan 9, 2011





MockingQuantum posted:

something useful,

:mods: rebrand site to Something Useful

readingatwork
Jan 8, 2009

Hello Fatty!


Fun Shoe
How would people feel about a goon projects hub thread? You’d still make your own thread but you’d link/discuss it In the hub and use it to let people know when there are updates. It might be a good way to get people’s eyes on stuff.

Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007

readingatwork posted:

How would people feel about a goon projects hub thread? You’d still make your own thread but you’d link/discuss it In the hub and use it to let people know when there are updates. It might be a good way to get people’s eyes on stuff.

I love this idea. The OP could have a general repository of ongoing threads and people could link to their projects. Bonus if the OP + mods can keep the OP up to date with project links.

SkaAndScreenplays
Dec 11, 2013

by Pragmatica

MockingQuantum posted:

I think the "hugboxy" suggestion was pretty in line with what you're talking about, it seems like it was suggesting a defined space where people could post whatever without worry that they'd get called out for being bad at art or whatever.

I pretty much have only stuck to Creative Convention and only got an account for Creative Convention so forgive me if I'm misusing forum terminology but have various levels of CC specific gangtag that indicate the level of harshness/kayfabe you're comfortable with?

That way people giving crits can easily identify which posts should be treated like a babyface amateur that's looking to develop and which ones should be beaten like Vince McMahon's broken leg.

SkaAndScreenplays fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Oct 24, 2020

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Sitting Here
Dec 31, 2007
There is now a CC Project megathread! The hope is that people will use this to share and keep track of projects in this subforum. I would love feedback on how to make this a helpful resource.

Sebmojo and I have been talking about how to implement other suggestions in this thread so there will be more stuff coming soon. But I think this is a good place to start.

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