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The actual people are a lot less divided than our stupid loving governing structures make it look. The solution is actual democracy and things like proportional representation , not a turning the continent into mega-balkans.
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Nov 6, 2020 11:53
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exquisite tea posted:The suburb was without a doubt the single largest disaster of civil engineering in the past century. The car. The suburb doesn't happen without the car.
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Nov 6, 2020 11:57
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Still Dismal posted:The actual people are a lot less divided than our stupid loving governing structures make it look. Honestly, if the US got proportional representation...the a far-right "Trump" party would get like 42-45% of the vote, and everything else would be a hodgepodge. Foreign journalists who have been living in the US for years were commenting that they have never seen the country this divided and it is starting to look like other countries with harden political divisions. I don't know if a break-up would actually work (it would be chaos honestly), but that doesn't mean things aren't going to get ugly. forkboy84 posted:The car. The suburb doesn't happen without the car. Eh, other places had cars, it wasn't just that.
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Nov 6, 2020 15:00
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Badger of Basra posted:You can't create one country of cities and one country of the rural areas in between them which is what the actual divide is, rather than states Eh, I guess something like Apartheid or the Israel/Palestine situation could work.
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Nov 6, 2020 16:51
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not with that attitude. Because the rural areas of this country want to crush the urban areas. It's not enough to be left alone to be god-bothering gay hating bigots, the rest of us have to be culturally aligned with them too or else we'll inevitably seduce their children and grandchildren with our freedom loving ways. Genuinely, a not insignificant chunk of Americans want a theocracy that reflects their understanding of God or they want to kill whoever doesn't want that until they get that. You're essentially proposing that we make future generations of Americans born into rural hellholes have to plan an escape and successfully flee to a different country. That's not a tenable situation, two countries that are that badly divided are going to war if they're neighbors.
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Nov 6, 2020 17:03
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Still Dismal posted:The actual people are a lot less divided than our stupid loving governing structures make it look. I dunno man the people are pretty loving divided
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Nov 6, 2020 18:08
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not with that attitude. City states didn't literally end at the city walls.
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Nov 6, 2020 18:38
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Flip Yr Wig posted:City states didn't literally end at the city walls. Relevant Tangent posted:Because the rural areas of this country want to crush the urban areas. It's not enough to be left alone to be god-bothering gay hating bigots, the rest of us have to be culturally aligned with them too or else we'll inevitably seduce their children and grandchildren with our freedom loving ways. Genuinely, a not insignificant chunk of Americans want a theocracy that reflects their understanding of God or they want to kill whoever doesn't want that until they get that. You're essentially proposing that we make future generations of Americans born into rural hellholes have to plan an escape and successfully flee to a different country. That's not a tenable situation, two countries that are that badly divided are going to war if they're neighbors.
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Nov 6, 2020 19:12
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We should do the snow crash thing with the corporate microstates
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Nov 6, 2020 20:18
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Ardennes posted:but that doesn't mean things aren't going to get ugly. Yes, there is real potential for violence. Something along the lines of "The Troubles" in Ireland, but instead of being fueled more by religion, this is a right/left schism.
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Nov 6, 2020 22:19
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Badger of Basra posted:I dunno man the people are pretty loving divided Definitely. I don't know how people can't see that.
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Nov 6, 2020 22:20
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How about we send a small army of Californians to Wyoming and other states with small populations, kinda like the Free State Project etc etc, and just overwhelm the existing voters to slowly convert more and more of the red midland into a blue buffer?  300,000 Californians would be enough to swing Wyoming without impacting anything back home.
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Nov 6, 2020 23:33
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Given that like 40% of the citizenty doesn't vote I think really you'd need three new countries. Red America, Blue America and Whatever America. https://youtu.be/Xz7_3n7xyDg
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Nov 6, 2020 23:36
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Sundae posted:How about we send a small army of Californians to Wyoming and other states with small populations, kinda like the Free State Project etc etc, and just overwhelm the existing voters to slowly convert more and more of the red midland into a blue buffer? Unironically if Mike Bloomberg would found universities in Montana, Wyoming, and one of the Dakotas we'd be set
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Nov 7, 2020 00:33
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Badger of Basra posted:Unironically if Mike Bloomberg would found universities in Montana, Wyoming, and one of the Dakotas we'd be set Unironically we should take his money and string him from a lamp post.
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Nov 7, 2020 04:19
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T-man posted:only a coward and a fool would be willing to condemn millions of vulnerable people to death, imprisonment, immiseration, and misery simply because they live in an area of the country you don't like If people are gonna make fun of OP for suggesting something that would be totally impossible they should make fun of this guy too tbh.
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Nov 7, 2020 04:30
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Crumbskull posted:Given that like 40% of the citizenty doesn't vote Im not surprised considering the bullshittery of recent elections and lack of objectivity.
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Nov 7, 2020 04:35
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Split at the Continental Divide and literally who cares if its 'even' or 'fair' or 'goes through former US state blundaries'. We all only need to care about water rights anyway.
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Nov 7, 2020 07:33
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Granted, unlike a country with an ethnic/linguistic/religious split where at least you can identity either side, the issue for the US is pretty multifaceted. It isn't just a cultural, religion, urban/rural, religious or even regional divide, but it is pretty much everything thrown together at the same time. There is absolutely plenty of division if not growing hatred but there isn't the firm dividing lines to allow separation. Also, plenty of visible minorities live in rural counties as well, a "city-state" solution wouldn't necessarily work and neither all regions monolithic (look at Georgia). That said, it is going to be hard to see that politics just reset to where they were pre-Trump or someone won't try to follow in his footsteps at some point. I could easily see the recent calls about voter fraud eventually become a "stab in the back" like myth.
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Nov 7, 2020 12:35
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Ardennes posted:Granted, unlike a country with an ethnic/linguistic/religious split where at least you can identity either side, the issue for the US is pretty multifaceted. And the terrifying part about someone trying to follow in Trump's footsteps is that the next autocrat is likely to be more intelligent than Trump. If that moron can command almost half of the votes for president, then the country will find itself in REAL trouble when someone who's even more calculated and convincing comes along.
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Nov 7, 2020 15:40
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Conservative institutions and avenues to power that lend themselves to being radicalized are an issue. The conservative apparatus needs to be dismantled, their media reigned in. I’ve watched America decline and this has been happening from Reagan onward. Racism is the main issue of this divide. The right is radicalizing and the centrists are ok with that so as long as their system is upheld and they can claim comprise. After dismantling the conservative operation you can maybe rebuild it to push it towards sane policies while still having be conservative. Right now the right is enabling this shift. I can see so many similarities between America and Pakistan or some countries in that region.
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Nov 8, 2020 19:31
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CocoaNuts posted:And the terrifying part about someone trying to follow in Trump's footsteps is that the next autocrat is likely to be more intelligent than Trump. If that moron can command almost half of the votes for president, then the country will find itself in REAL trouble when someone who's even more calculated and convincing comes along. That's one scenario I could see; a competent autocrat takes charge. As violence builds up in an increasingly polarized and policed country, local power becomes more important. Company towns make a re-emergence, this time with PMCs. The federal government manages commerce to the extent necessary for With the decentralization of warfare, conflicts would be small, asymmetrical, and often via proxy. Drone warfare, cyber attacks, sabotage. And lots of petty stuff. (I'm imagining the online multiplayer games of this future; reds vs. blues everywhere. And you thought Horde v. Alliance was bad.) Or maybe this is all bullshit. What's the most boring, mundane, banal way that the country's divisions would fall out/be handled?
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Nov 10, 2020 05:20
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:We tried this once and it didn't work. Only because we let the chuds off the hook. 
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Nov 10, 2020 07:47
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Cobalt-60 posted:That's one scenario I could see; a competent autocrat takes charge. As violence builds up in an increasingly polarized and policed country, local power becomes more important. Company towns make a re-emergence, this time with PMCs. The federal government manages commerce to the extent necessary for Split at the continental divide so that you don't have a water war in the next twenty years, and let the east coast knife fight about politics at what is effectively an even battle between Yankees and Confederates.
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Nov 10, 2020 16:58
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Gerund posted:Split at the continental divide so that you don't have a water war in the next twenty years, and let the east coast knife fight about politics at what is effectively an even battle between Yankees and Confederates. The west's chuds might be less numerous but if they wanted to start poo poo the geographical circumstances are going to make them far more effective at sabotaging their enemies, and harder to catch. Lol when the State of Jefferson Free Army starts loving with the central valley's water supply and you all come crawling back to Papa East.
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Nov 10, 2020 17:22
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Honestly, at this point I think if it comes to splitting the union, I don't think you get two countries. My best guess is that it balkanizes into several countries divided out regionally rather than strictly along blue/red boundaries. I think there would be too many competing interests in any sort of negotiated division and you wind up getting things like the Nation of Texas because gently caress You Got My Country.
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Nov 10, 2020 18:35
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Sundae posted:How about we send a small army of Californians to Wyoming and other states with small populations, kinda like the Free State Project etc etc, and just overwhelm the existing voters to slowly convert more and more of the red midland into a blue buffer? They already are trickling into parts of Wyoming like Lander and Jackson. They just all call where they're from "Commiefornia" and are all Republicans. It would be nice if my home sucked less, though.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:12
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exquisite tea posted:The suburb was without a doubt the single largest disaster of civil engineering in the past century.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:20
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The divide is between Cities and Countryside with Blue states being places whose cities outnumber the county while red states being places where the rural population is larger than the cities. Austin, New Orleans, Nashville, Louisville are all very blue and left-leaning but the rural small-town population in those states is just bigger. Upstate New York, Eastern Oregon, the Inland Empire are all chuddy as poo poo but they're drowned out by LA, SF, Portland, and NYC. I don't see a way to make a county work where the cities have no way to grow their own food or natural resources and the country has no hubs for information or knowledge or economic activity. But I digress: Virginia Colorado and currently Georgia moved left from people moving there so the real solution is carpetbagging.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:20
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Not with that attitude. The only two current independent city states are located at the busiest shipping lane in the entire world and the other atop a massive reserve of oil. Both really only exist because of a quirk in how Britain organized its Malaysian colonies anyway and aren't really "natural". An independent minneapolis for example would be blockaded and crushed by red minnesota fairly quickly. New York, LA, San Francisco and Houston with mayyybee Miami Boston and Seattle could probably exist independently and just import food. Everywhere else? I doubt it and with the exception of Miami and Houston those cities completely dominate their states politics anyway.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:26
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:An independent minneapolis for example would be blockaded and crushed by red minnesota fairly quickly. You understand what a lot of people in this state fail to grasp.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:52
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:The only two current independent city states are located at the busiest shipping lane in the entire world and the other atop a massive reserve of oil. Both really only exist because of a quirk in how Britain organized its Malaysian colonies anyway and aren't really "natural". BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:An independent minneapolis for example would be blockaded and crushed by red minnesota fairly quickly. New York, LA, San Francisco and Houston with mayyybee Miami Boston and Seattle could probably exist independently and just import food. Everywhere else? I doubt it and with the exception of Miami and Houston those cities completely dominate their states politics anyway.
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Nov 11, 2020 17:54
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The west's chuds might be less numerous but if they wanted to start poo poo the geographical circumstances are going to make them far more effective at sabotaging their enemies, and harder to catch. Lol when the State of Jefferson Free Army starts loving with the central valley's water supply and you all come crawling back to Papa East. *ahem* nah, them lil shits ain't nothing. A Buttery Pastry posted:You forgot Monaco and the Vatican. amicable divorce with a clean border is the only way to balkanize the country, and even then you're still in a Partition of India scenario where people go door-to-door to cleanse their neighborhood of people who "don't belong".
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Nov 11, 2020 18:00
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You forgot Monaco and the Vatican. If the situation was amicable enough to have an amicable divorce there wouldn't be a divorce in the first place
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Nov 11, 2020 18:03
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BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:But I digress: Virginia Colorado and currently Georgia moved left from people moving there so the real solution is carpetbagging. holy poo poo this is a bad take Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 18:07
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Gerund posted:
partition of india but more so because the demographics are more evenly distributed and if we take the "well i guess there's nothing for it but to cleanse the republicans from our super-blue states and let everyone else descend into horrific violence" awful assumption this topic always starts with, the vitriol is also more evenly distributed
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Nov 11, 2020 18:39
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GreyjoyBastard posted:partition of india but more so because the demographics are more evenly distributed and if we take the "well i guess there's nothing for it but to cleanse the republicans from our super-blue states and let everyone else descend into horrific violence" awful assumption this topic always starts with, the vitriol is also more evenly distributed Oh wait, that's just the status quo, lol.
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Nov 11, 2020 20:57
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Let's start with 50 countries. We already got borders drawn up, flags, state governments, etc. Easy as that! No more half-measures or arguing over custody of the kids, just a clean break.
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Nov 11, 2020 21:04
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whiggles posted:Let's start with 50 countries. We already got borders drawn up, flags, state governments, etc. Clearly the real answer is just proportional representation across the board, because almost every state votes for "we don't like either option about equally".
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Nov 11, 2020 21:10
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whiggles posted:Let's start with 50 countries. We already got borders drawn up, flags, state governments, etc. Yeah, but we need someone to regulate interstate commerce...
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Nov 11, 2020 21:12
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