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Cicero posted:It's American suburbs in particular that are poo poo. Many suburbs in other countries are totally fine. Other countries have suburbs; the US is more or less on its own in having exurbs. I am pretty sure you could predict the Trump-voting percentage of a given area solely from google street view images. Knowing what state the street was in, or census data, would add a little extra precision, but not that much. To a first approximation, people who live in a given type of neighborhood vote corresponding. Every other way of splitting the vote totals mostly just tells you how people are split across those types of neighborhoods.
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Nov 11, 2020 21:29
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And, to a point, it's important to have regional balance in representation on some level, it just really sucks when most rural areas have decided their interests are mainly homophobia, xenophobia and a bizarre strain of evangelical Christianity. There's no reason why, on average, people in a rural area should have worse opinions on those issues by default, but ooooooh my do they ever! Even here in Canada, I assure you! I think it has to do with the (to some degree self-imposed) isolation.
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Nov 11, 2020 21:55
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Ardennes posted:Honestly, if the US got proportional representation...the a far-right "Trump" party would get like 42-45% of the vote, and everything else would be a hodgepodge. Foreign journalists who have been living in the US for years were commenting that they have never seen the country this divided and it is starting to look like other countries with harden political divisions. Yeah, I feel like in such a system you would end up with a centrist party forming a coalition with a right-wing one. In the US it appears that the left and center are in some sort of coalition, but in reality that's only because the left has no power in that "coalition."
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Nov 11, 2020 22:01
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exquisite tea posted:The suburb was without a doubt the single largest disaster of civil engineering in the past century. Strong suggest you and others read the first couple chapters of V.S. McAlester's A Field Guide to American Houses for baby-level information about the gestation of the American suburb and its physical forms before opining this. Suburbs were the de facto pattern of urban development before cars even existed, and long before 1920. radmonger posted:Other countries have suburbs; the US is more or less on its own in having exurbs. The US is absolutely not on its own in having exurbs. Many people in Japan do an exurban daily-multi-hour-each-way commute via train to be able to have a 'real' house with a yard and parallel patterns exists across Asia and Europe as well. I know a guy who commutes via bullet train from the outskirts of Nagano to Meguro (that's 2.5-3 hours each way, daily) so that he could have a big house and a yard. This is possible because of a commuter-friendly express bullet train that exists for this purpose, and it's not uncommon. What's unique to the US are two things: 1) Massive public subsidies for car-based transport and car-centric low density development 2) No parallel public subsidies for other transit modes and development forms; in fact there are mostly incentives for the former and penalties for the latter (like parking minimums in downtown core development projects, for example) You get rid of other of those things and our car-centric sprawl development form evaporates; either into clustered exurban enclaves (like clusters of mid-rises and houses centered around a train station, if there are public subsidies for rail) or straight up into urban agglomeration with a built up core surrounded by midrise, then townhouses, and then detached houses typically accompanied by private bus/shuttle or light rail/street car transit.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:05
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Here's a picture of an adorable horsebus, which is what you would get on if were a suburb commuter in London from about the 1850s to 1900 in many areas.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:20
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I'm going to guess you'll still see different voting patterns between the people living in Japanese exurbs and people living in Japanese cities, though. Maybe they don't hate abortion and love Republican Jeezus, but there are probably still some sort of relevant differences.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:25
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The Oldest Man posted:Strong suggest you and others read the first couple chapters of V.S. McAlester's A Field Guide to American Houses for baby-level information about the gestation of the American suburb and its physical forms before opining this. Suburbs were the de facto pattern of urban development before cars even existed, and long before 1920. It’s not unique to the us in that Canada at least has all the same problems, even if it has a slightly better train system
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Nov 11, 2020 22:26
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mediaphage posted:It’s not unique to the us in that Canada at least has all the same problems, even if it has a slightly better train system We have what now? In what way is our train system better? If anything, it's worse.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:27
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The Oldest Man posted:Strong suggest you and others read the first couple chapters of V.S. McAlester's A Field Guide to American Houses for baby-level information about the gestation of the American suburb and its physical forms before opining this. Suburbs were the de facto pattern of urban development before cars even existed, and long before 1920. If you have a train line going into your neighborhood, I wouldn't call you an "exurb". People may choose to work a job distant from their home via train, but if there's a train line then there's going to be more than one stop between you and it. When people talk about US exurbs we are talking about the communities 100 miles out from any real cities, the kind of place where describing it would be doxxing myself, because knowing them by name requires you to have lived within 15 miles of it. There are tons of places like that all over the Midwest, where the urban cores are hollowed out and the suburbs have sprawled as much as they are inclined to and the only reason there are housing developments beyond that is because the land wasn't arable or people had an inflated opinion of their ability to create a community. There are so many places that are more defined by the name of the highway exit they exist on than whatever name the community gave itself, and if that's not what you mean by "exurb" we need yet another distinguishing term to bridge the gap between exurb and rural.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:29
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PT6A posted:I'm going to guess you'll still see different voting patterns between the people living in Japanese exurbs and people living in Japanese cities, though. Maybe they don't hate abortion and love Republican Jeezus, but there are probably still some sort of relevant differences. A comparison between Japanese politics and American politics on American urban/suburban/rural divide lines is more or less impossible and "I'm going to guess" isn't really worth addressing as an argument.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:31
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BougieBitch posted:If you have a train line going into your neighborhood, I wouldn't call you an "exurb". People may choose to work a job distant from their home via train, but if there's a train line then there's going to be more than one stop between you and it. When people talk about US exurbs we are talking about the communities 100 miles out from any real cities, the kind of place where describing it would be doxxing myself, because knowing them by name requires you to have lived within 15 miles of it. There are tons of places like that all over the Midwest, where the urban cores are hollowed out and the suburbs have sprawled as much as they are inclined to and the only reason there are housing developments beyond that is because the land wasn't arable or people had an inflated opinion of their ability to create a community. There are so many places that are more defined by the name of the highway exit they exist on than whatever name the community gave itself, and if that's not what you mean by "exurb" we need yet another distinguishing term to bridge the gap between exurb and rural. You only think having a commuter rail stop makes you a real place/community with its own identity because you've never lived in a place that just built those habitually the way we build highway exits.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:33
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PT6A posted:We have what now? i would argue it's much easier for a majority of canadians to take a train somewhere anywhere than a majority of americans. obviously there are scaling issues involved. like the train was basically an impossibility where i lived in the states, here they have stops that aren't only at 3am on wednesdays
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Nov 11, 2020 22:45
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PT6A posted:I'm going to guess you'll still see different voting patterns between the people living in Japanese exurbs and people living in Japanese cities, though. Maybe they don't hate abortion and love Republican Jeezus, but there are probably still some sort of relevant differences.
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Nov 11, 2020 22:49
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You don't need to put borders between Red and Blue in order to lessen the damage caused by insane conservative rurals. Trump supporters just need to be excluded by non-supporters personally to send the message up top and tell old Democrats to split with their co-worker buddies, and stop the new Democrats from forming friendships with them. I see the fact that you end up being buddies with close co-workers being the worst obstacle that the Democrats who don't want their elected representatives to compromise with the Republicans have in their way. This will hopefully put the push for Democrats to finally start employing the same tricks used against them, and ramp through a legislative and political reform agenda that solidifies their actual majority at a representational level. So pack the courts, re-apportion the house and make the EC more representative through that, promote the Interstate Compact, keep drumming the line of "one man one vote" like it is the 1960's again and above all rain down executive actions from the sky. I imagine Senate is quite etched in stone, but the drive towards and hopefully admittance of PR, DC, Pacific territories (as one or all individually) and the Virgin Islands as states. And yes, some of those places may have a tiny population but so what? Wyoming compared to California is Virgin Islands compared to Wyoming. Time and urbanization are on Democrats' side. These people will die out and if America was even moderately representing its populace accurately, it would have already solved the problem. It is not that these people don't exist in other countries - United States is not the only country with the pressures of cities vs. countryside. It is just that in other developed countries, the numbers tell because they are reflected in political outcomes. Multiple parties/ranked choice voting helps, but the above things are measures that would require less electoral reform while working under already established political paths in my opinion. Of course, I don't see this happening under the "heal the divide" administration/electorate...
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Nov 11, 2020 23:00
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The Oldest Man posted:You only think having a commuter rail stop makes you a real place/community with its own identity because you've never lived in a place that just built those habitually the way we build highway exits. Ish? I mean, I don't disagree that the US is laid out in a way that is structurally unsound, but if we are talking about US geography I don't really see what the point of comparing a country laid out in a completely different way is. The poster you were responding to was talking about the US-style "this community barely has a name" exurbs, to the best of my knowledge Japan doesn't have any area even approaching the lower end of US population density and it's a weird thing to try to police the definition of in a US-centric thread
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Nov 11, 2020 23:02
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mediaphage posted:i would argue it's much easier for a majority of canadians to take a train somewhere anywhere than a majority of americans. obviously there are scaling issues involved. Okay, and... why do you think this? We have one main passenger rail corridor and a few smaller ones, none of which are even up to the standard of the Acela corridor in the US. The US is awful for train service but Canada is just as bad or worse.
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Nov 11, 2020 23:10
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BougieBitch posted:Ish? I mean, I don't disagree that the US is laid out in a way that is structurally unsound, but if we are talking about US geography I don't really see what the point of comparing a country laid out in a completely different way is. The poster you were responding to was talking about the US-style "this community barely has a name" exurbs, to the best of my knowledge Japan doesn't have any area even approaching the lower end of US population density and it's a weird thing to try to police the definition of in a US-centric thread I'm not the one policing the definition of the word "exurb" to mean something US-specific here. By the way, rural Japan has been hollowed out to the extent that they've even closed their schools and there are hundreds of exurban communities in Japan that maybe once long ago were thriving towns but now exist as ghost commuter exurbs. The "dense city" image of Japan is mostly only reflective of Tokyo and a couple other places. The Oldest Man fucked around with this message at 23:15 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 23:12
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BougieBitch posted:If you have a train line going into your neighborhood, I wouldn't call you an "exurb". Absolutely; exurbs typically have a pop density of less than 1 person per square km. That means no shared infrastructure is even remotely possible. Drive out of your front door and you hit a highway before you see a business establishment. Which of course means no jobs locally, and your children either living in your basement, or a different state. Taxes are not a way of sharing the burden of paying for things everyone needs when there is no useful sharing to be done. Pretty much everything about Republican politics comes from that socioeconomic environment; if you lived there, you would likely vote that way too. And if you are not prone to voting that way, you wouldn’t be able to live there, and likely wouldn’t want to. To destroy the power of a socioeconomic class, it is usually a category error to mess with borders. Instead, if you simply ensure that people who live by sharing infrastructure are happier and more prosperous than those who go it alone, things will work themselves out in a surprisingly short amount of time.
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Nov 11, 2020 23:19
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PT6A posted:Okay, and... why do you think this? because that's one of the only places in the US you can regularly take a train. i grew up in the US and live in canada now. you can theoretically take a train, without much difficulty or planning, across the entire country here along a route that passes through close to a huge percentage of the canadian population. that's just not possible without a poo poo-ton of effort in most major american cities. i grew up in the hills, so that's an obvious no-go but the nearest city to me was an msa of millions and did not get any kind of daily train service.
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Nov 11, 2020 23:23
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mediaphage posted:because that's one of the only places in the US you can regularly take a train. i grew up in the US and live in canada now. you can theoretically take a train, without much difficulty or planning, across the entire country here along a route that passes through close to a huge percentage of the canadian population. There's no passenger service to Calgary or Regina at all, the route between Vancouver and Winnipeg is offered one day a week, and takes 3 days. Just as an example. Outside the Windsor-Quebec corridor, our train service is spectacularly bad, and even there, it's pretty bad compared to its nearest equivalent in the US (the Acela corridor). If you aren't in the right cities in Canada, it's just as impossible/useless to take a train as in the US.
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Nov 11, 2020 23:35
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PT6A posted:We have what now? It's not, speaking as someone who's lived in both bumfucks and hubs of both countries. Canada: expensive and unable to reach the north US: same cost as Halifax-Winnipeg to go from NYC to Boston, only rich people go further, not useable at all beyond one corridor That roughly 90% of Canada lives along the corridor and the vast majority of that is between Montréal and Toronto may colour your experience Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 23:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It's not, speaking as someone who's lived in both bumfucks and hubs of both countries. this was my whole point, too, that it works for a majority of canadians, not that it's a completely pervasive service, thus a majority of the country benefits vs the US. edit: it's not even relevant to the discussion at hand, it was just an aside, and i explicitly said "slightly." i don't know why you're reading so much into it (not you, EAH) but let's drop the ot mediaphage fucked around with this message at 00:34 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 00:01
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roomforthetuna posted:Do people think republican-only states would descend into horrific violence? I thought the idea was more that they'd descend into near-universal subsistence poverty with a few Bezoses enslaving the rest, who all totally go along with it and think it's the best thing ever. You get that the only thing keeping the various militias from killing people until the militias turn on one another is the federal government right? The thing with authoritarians is that they need an Other, and right now that's the feds. If for some reason the feds vanished overnight and the various state governments became the government the hatred would transfer to them overnight, etc. etc. until you get down to the Montana Freemen going to war with the Missoula Antifa ie. a black teenager. They're not going to turn into subsistence farmers, they're going to turn into marauders. If they were going to be subsistence farmers they could already be doing that, they want the country to balkanize so they can start killing people.
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Nov 12, 2020 01:43
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DarkCrawler posted:You don't need to put borders between Red and Blue in order to lessen the damage caused by insane conservative rurals. Yeah man further atomization and decline of worker solidarity is exactly the pill to fix America.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:12
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People splitting off to only ever talking to people who already agree with them is what led to conservatives to just have this feedback loop until they've gone from "I like guns and low taxes  " to "The democrats without any exaggeration are kidnapping children to feast on their blood so they can stay young forever. ARE TROOPS after conferring with Jesus chose DONALD J TRUMP  to root these guys out and show them and anyone opposing trumps agenda is a SERVANT OF SATAN". Making sure our crazy hateful old people only every talk to even crazier more hateful old people will probably not lead to $15 minimum wage, a UBI, better job protections or Medicare for all. I've been wrong before but I do feel confident about this one.
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Nov 12, 2020 02:27
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Dumper Humper posted:Yeah man further atomization and decline of worker solidarity is exactly the pill to fix America. This is sort of a fundamental problem: what do you do when about half the voting bloc in this country quite are monsters that quite literally live in an alternate reality? How do you even begin to reverse the brainwashing and reverse it on a time table to actually address the severe, crippling, multiple crises this country's facing all at the same time? BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People splitting off to only ever talking to people who already agree with them is what led to conservatives to just have this feedback loop until they've gone from "I like guns and low taxes So it sounds like we've got nothing to lose at this point. There's been a worrying voice in me recently that just tells me these people are literally beyond saving, and our best hope is to literally isolate them from the voting process in a literal political quarantine. This is terrifying to consider; it scares the hell out of me, but gently caress, what other option do we have?
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Nov 12, 2020 05:44
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Talking to them, like humans, about the real material issues in their lives, and trying to help them, instead of just acknowledging that poo poo sucks and then blaming it on *insert culture war issue* at best and not outright denying it at worst, would be a hell of a start. Writing them off has demonstrably not worked, because writing them off pushes them further down the rabbit hole, further into the insanity. Going "gosh I guess we just need to get shittier" is loving terrible.
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Nov 12, 2020 09:10
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Dumper Humper posted:Yeah man further atomization and decline of worker solidarity is exactly the pill to fix America. If you want solidarity with a monster because they are a "worker", you're part of the problem, not the solution. BIG FLUFFY DOG posted:People splitting off to only ever talking to people who already agree with them is what led to conservatives to just have this feedback loop until they've gone from "I like guns and low taxes No, people pretending that voting for Donald Trump is acceptable by continuing to associate with these people led to conservatives believing that it is okay to be a monster. Dumper Humper posted:Talking to them, like humans, about the real material issues in their lives, and trying to help them, instead of just acknowledging that poo poo sucks and then blaming it on *insert culture war issue* at best and not outright denying it at worst, would be a hell of a start. The problem is that they haven't been written off. You pretend they are, but the vast majority of sane Americans, including the elected ones still think it is okay to be on speaking terms and compromise with monsters. They don't care about the material issues. If decades of being hosed materially up in the rear end by their elected representatives haven't convinced them, what goddamn hope do you have? DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 11:38 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 11:29
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DarkCrawler posted:
Similarly, the problem with me not flying is that I think it is ok for me to not have left the ground due to vigorous flapping of my arms. Any group describable as a ‘vast majority’ is made up of only slightly less than half Trump voters. Your chance of persuading them to do what you ask Is pretty similar than that of me winning an rational debate with gravity.
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Nov 12, 2020 13:04
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radmonger posted:Similarly, the problem with me not flying is that I think it is ok for me to not have left the ground due to vigorous flapping of my arms. I have no belief in me being able to persuade them to do that if the last 12 years or so haven't. They should still do it, though. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Nov 12, 2020 |
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Nov 12, 2020 13:22
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DarkCrawler posted:. Buddy if you think it's only Republicans who have been selling out voters to capital, you should probably refrain from posting. Alternately, I'm glad to see you give up on electoralism as a strategy.
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Nov 12, 2020 13:22
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Dumper Humper posted:Buddy if you think it's only Republicans who have been selling out voters to capital, you should probably refrain from posting. Alternately, I'm glad to see you give up on electoralism as a strategy. I don't think it is only Republicans. And I haven't clearly given up on electoralism.
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Nov 12, 2020 13:24
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You should probably not use "they vote for people who work against them" as a criteria for writing people off then.
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Nov 12, 2020 13:29
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Dumper Humper posted:You should probably not use "they vote for people who work against them" as a criteria for writing people off then. That's not the only criteria I am using, nor are the two parties working against them at an equal level.
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Nov 12, 2020 14:37
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DarkCrawler posted:That's not the only criteria I am using, nor are the two parties working against them at an equal level. yeah, you're right. they try to out do each other to show to big daddy capital that they're super duper serious about austerity or wiping out grandma's life savings.
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Nov 12, 2020 18:21
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This thread has run its course, insofar as balkanization fantasy threads produce anything useful.
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