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CommieGIR posted:That's happening anyways, and please don't feed in it: A lot of things are worse than an Ossoff win but I'm discussing what is, not what ought. That is to say, running a candidate with Ossoff's stated priorities *is* a mistake, and that it will hurt the chances of dem control. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 19:53
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Ruzihm posted:A lot of things are worse than an Ossoff win but I'm discussing what is, not what ought. What is, is a McConnell ruled senate. Which is why this runoff matters, lovely Ossoff or not. And why we're here in this thread pushing people to vote. Ruzihm posted:That is to say, running a candidate with Ossoff's stated priorities *is* a mistake, and that it will hurt the chances of dem control. And its too late for that, that is what ought. What is is Ossoff is going to be in the runoff, that is not a hypothetical. Would another candidate be better? Yes. Is that possible. Absolutely not, right now. You are asking for a perfect candidate in a runoff where the dies are already cast, candidate wise. We need people to fight for the candidate that's locked in, not a hypothetical candidate that is not feasibly possible within the next month and a half. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 19:58 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 19:55
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I think criticizing candidates for doing dumb things is actually good, and getting bent out of shape at contrary opinions in debate and discussion is a bad idea. Ossoff coming out against basically every popular policy days into the runoff election is bad. Warnock rapidly backpedaling on Israel is bad. I'm not going to modulate these statements based on the potential to replace a McConnell congress with a Manchin congress. You're free to throw money at Ossoff in spite of this if you want, but shouting down dissent on an internet forum is not Georgia campaigning.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:11
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CommieGIR posted:What is, is a McConnell ruled senate. I think running an Ossoff is more harmful to the odds of a dem senate control than not spending individual donations on the campaign, and the sooner and more cheaply that is proven the better we are off for it. What I'm saying is that if we accept that electorialism is a valid strategy, then throwing good money after a candidate that is both 1. unwittingly supportive of white supremacy (make no mistake, this is what being an ice supporter means) and 2.who is hurting their own chances of a win by being open about it is less productive than saving that money for a better candidate down the road who could use that money to win an equally useful position. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 20:18
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Criticizing candidates during primaries is totally needed and necessary, criticizing them when they are in office is a MUST. Doing it when the control of the senate and, quite literally, any achievement under a Biden presidency hangs in the balance is spiteful. You are not changing candidates now. And once they are in, lay it on them, much like we should start laying on Joe right now. Once they are in, run better candidate. Donate to those candidate ground games. I know I will! But you are openly arguing for a fantasy right now. Its too late to turn this around, and you certainly are not doing in the next month and a half. We have two years after this to start gearing up ground game, and then another two years after that to get better primary candidates lined up. These are the cards you are dealt, and pretending otherwise is outright ignoring reality. The choices are: Ossoff and Warnock and a tied senate with a tie breaker VP, or a McConnell senate that WILL gain more GOP ground and stop anything possible, for better or for worse under Biden, from happening. There is nothing else in this runoff for you to choose from. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 20:21
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CommieGIR posted:Criticizing candidates during primaries is totally needed and necessary, criticizing them when they are in office is a MUST. Caring about climate change isn’t spiteful even if both candidates deny the realities of climate change we shouldn’t have to hide our heads in the sand. Same about genocide, we shouldn’t be silent about our leaders supporting a genocidal regime even if both candidates support it. This is a forum for discussion and debate first and foremost, if you’d rather not engage in a conversation that’s always your option.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:26
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Trabisnikof posted:Caring about climate change isn’t spiteful even if both candidates deny the realities of climate change we shouldn’t have to hide our heads in the sand. Same about genocide, we shouldn’t be silent about supporting a genocidal regime even if both candidates support it. Yeah, because we're making any meaningful progress on Climate Change OR Genocide with McConnell controlling the senate. GND is dead as a door nail if he's in charge. That this point, even Political Appointees might never make it through the senate.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:28
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CommieGIR posted:Yeah, because we're making any meaningful progress on Climate Change OR Genocide with McConnell controlling the senate. GND is dead as a door nail if he's in charge. And it’s equally as dead if Ossoff is in the senate. So it seems perfectly legitimate to point this out rather than pretend that climate change isn’t the greatest threat we’re facing.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:29
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Trabisnikof posted:And it’s equally as dead if Ossoff is in the senate. So it seems perfectly legitimate to point this out rather than pretend that climate change isn’t the greatest threat we’re facing. The idea that Ossoff is going to openly vote with the GOP versus Purdue is some fantastical thinking. And you KNOW how I feel about Climate Change so don't pull that loving card and pretend Purdue is going to somehow be a better choice in fighting climate change.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:30
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unfollowing thread now that it's just the same old slap fight in every other thread, i'll keep my organizing and advocacy to less salty venues (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Nov 10, 2020 20:31
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For the goons badmouthing Ossoff you know the alternative is Perdue right? How is any world is that better?
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Nov 10, 2020 20:31
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CommieGIR posted:The idea that Ossoff is going to openly vote with the GOP versus Purdue is some fantastical thinking. So it’s fantastical thinking now to take Ossoff at his word when he says he opposes the GND? See this is the exact denial of reality that I fear is taking over the Democratic Party.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:31
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Coredump posted:For the goons badmouthing Ossoff you know the alternative is Perdue right? How is any world is that better? It’s not badmouthing to state plain facts about a candidate’s policies. And that doesn’t change the reality of Ossoff’s opposing the GND. We should be allowed to discuss policies even when Ossoff agrees with the Republicans.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:32
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Trabisnikof posted:So it’s fantastical thinking now to take Ossoff at his word when he says he opposes the GND? Your choices are: Purdue or Ossoff: Which one do you honestly think is going to be more LIKELY to support GND in any form or fashion. Choose wisely. That's it. That's your choice. This is thread is about the runoff, not candidate choices that are not even on the table. You either get Purdue and Loeffler or Warnock and Ossoff. There's no other candidates coming up for votes on the 5th of Jan. Discuss the Runoff, not wishy-washy thinking about Candidate that could have been. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 20:33
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Do you have a problem with discussing runoff strategy? Like, for example, how terrible an idea it was to blanket dismiss every popular leftist policy?
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Nov 10, 2020 20:35
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CommieGIR posted:Your choices are: Purdue or Ossoff: Which one do you honestly think is going to be more LIKELY to support GND in any form or fashion. Choose wisely. So are you arguing that Ossoff is lying to the voters when he says he opposes the GND? How exactly is that thinking based in reality? My point is both candidates deny the reality of climate change and that their denial is partly to blame for the mass deaths our refusal to act will cause. We shouldn’t have to ignore this reality or silence those speaking it just because they both agree.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:36
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Neurolimal posted:Do you have a problem with discussing runoff strategy? Like, for example, how terrible an idea it was to blanket dismiss every popular leftist policy? "choose another candidate" is not how runoffs work. And I say that as a leftist. Trabisnikof posted:So are you arguing that Ossoff is lying to the voters when he says he opposes the GND? How exactly is that thinking based in reality? Ossoff or Purdue. Ossoff is pro clean energy and has openly endorsed environmentalism. Purdue has not. quote:“We can unite this country right now, at a moment when so many are out of work and struggling economically, behind a historic infrastructure plan with unprecedented investments in clean energy, to make Georgia the leading producer of renewable energy in the American Southeast,” . - Ossoff
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Nov 10, 2020 20:38
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CommieGIR posted:"choose another candidate" is not how runoffs work. And I say that as a leftist. I don’t have to have an alternative to point out that Ossoff opposes any realistic chance to stop billions in unneeded deaths. Until a mod says otherwise I’m going to assume fact based and polite discussions of the policies of all the candidates will be allowed in this thread even if the Republican and Democrat agree on said policies.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:39
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I think it should be pointed out that there are literally only two choices in the Georgia runoff - Perdue or Ossoff. There are no third party choices. You can choose not to vote, that's your choice - but to say we deserve better than those two choices is ultimately meaningless right now, in a runoff where there are two and only two candidates.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:40
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Edward Mass posted:I think it should be pointed out that there are literally only two choices in the Georgia runoff - Perdue or Ossoff. There are no third party choices. You can choose not to vote, that's your choice - but to say we deserve better than those two choices is ultimately meaningless right now, in a runoff where there are two and only two candidates. I disagree, it is very meaningful to keep the Democratic Party from being a completely climate and genocide denier party on the justification of “they have to or they will lose” or “those don’t matter if both sides do it”. We already saw how Biden’s climate denialism in the debate measurably worsened the issue of climate denialism in the party. I hope Ossoff’s rejecting the GND doesn’t seal the fate of meaningful climate action. Like this is a forum for discussion and discussing the climate policies of a candidate is reasonable even if the conclusions aren’t what some candidates’ supports want to hear.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:43
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Trabisnikof posted:I don’t have to have an alternative to point out that Ossoff opposes any realistic chance to stop billions in unneeded deaths. I literally quoted Ossoff saying that he fully supports renewables as a jobs program, which is exactly what GND does. There's plenty of room for Ossoff to maneuver in GND and support what he's openly stated as goals Purdue is not going to do that, and especially not Loeffler. So by your own logic, Ossoff is a environmental/Climate Change win. So whats your point? Trabisnikof posted:I disagree, it is very meaningful to keep the Democratic Party from being a completely climate and genocide denier party on the justification of “they have to or they will lose” or “those don’t matter if both sides do it”. I QUOTED him as supporting a renewables expansion. You aren't even arguing in good faith now.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:43
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For the love of Christ don't give money to Ossoff. Phone bank if you feel like helping, give money to local groups that help turn out the vote, but don't waste your money on him. The man blew $30 million in his house race to marginally improve over the previous dem candidate that may or may not even have existed and blew $40 million this race so far. As much as some people will refuse to hear it, Chapo did a very good breakdown today about the consultant firm Ossoff hired called Mothership that is the democrat mirror of the Lincoln Project in that they take a bunch of money from the candidate and spend it on other companies owned by themselves. At this point you'll get a better return giving a Nigerian prince money, because Ossoff is going to do the exact same thing that's lost twice in a row.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:44
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Edward Mass posted:I think it should be pointed out that there are literally only two choices in the Georgia runoff - Perdue or Ossoff. There are no third party choices. You can choose not to vote, that's your choice - but to say we deserve better than those two choices is ultimately meaningless right now, in a runoff where there are two and only two candidates. It's not meaningless if we acknowledge it as a cause for a loss, and it's not meaningless if we factor that into how we spend our limited resources such as money.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:45
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I can totally understand discussing candidates policy positions in the previous election to decide who was the better Democratic candidate. But now we're in the runoffs, our choices are locked in, and control of the senate is at stake I just don't understand what those discussions will accomplish at this time. I don't like Ossoff either but he's the only with a D beside his name I can vote for at this time.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:45
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CommieGIR posted:I literally quoted Ossoff saying that he fully supports renewables as a jobs program, which is exactly what GND does. There's plenty of room for Ossoff to maneuver in GND and support what he's openly stated as goals Ossoff said directly he opposes the GND, now we can argue that he’s right or wrong, I think he’s wrong. But we have to at least accept the reality that his statements opposing the GND are real. https://twitter.com/axios/status/1326020210218967040
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Nov 10, 2020 20:45
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Isn't now, when they're trying to win an election, when the public should have the greatest leverage to try to push a candidate left? It's not like Ossoff's policies are necessarily set in stone.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:46
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Trabisnikof posted:Ossoff said directly he opposes the GND, now we can argue that he’s right or wrong, I think he’s wrong. But we have to at least accept the reality that his statements opposing the GND are real. So did Biden in the debates, so I guess we're hosed and nothing matters. But you know that's not true, so maybe actually read into what Ossoff is saying, He's trying to get around opponents of GND while asking for the exact same things GND does. fancy stats posted:Isn't now, when they're trying to win an election, when the public should have the greatest leverage to try to push a candidate left? It's not like Ossoff's policies are necessarily set in stone. No, that'd be the primaries. You only get to choose these guys, and the other guys (Purdue and Loeffler) are as bad as it gets. Trabisnikof posted:Ossoff said directly he opposes the GND, now we can argue that he’s right or wrong, I think he’s wrong. But we have to at least accept the reality that his statements opposing the GND are real. And yet he supports DC/Puerto Rico statehood which would achieve a Democratic win that makes stuff like GND (which purpose he agrees with on principle) extremely possible. But sure, let's let Purdue win, that'll totally make things better.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:48
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fancy stats posted:Isn't now, when they're trying to win an election, when the public should have the greatest leverage to try to push a candidate left? It's not like Ossoff's policies are necessarily set in stone. Let me try to run this hypothetical through. If we pressure the candidates to go left and they don't what recourse do those of us who try to push them left have? Either not vote or vote for the other candidate and both of those are counter to what we want to achieve right? Given how close the race was in Georgia for the president I'm hoping Ossoff is trying to ride the middle as much as possible to achieve the greatest chance of winning. But at the end of the day he's better than Perdue. In the meantime I donated to Stacey Abrams FairFight organization as she got poo poo done.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:50
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Coredump posted:Given how close the race was in Georgia for the president I'm hoping Ossoff is trying to ride the middle as much as possible to achieve the greatest chance of winning. Isn't this like saying "Jim's dad ate 2 big macs every day for 40 years and barely survived his 60s, so I hope his son is doing the same to survive his 60s as well"? I don't really understand this logic, unless you assume the conclusion. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 20:52
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Oh because you'll be totally able to push Purdue left when Ossoff loses good job
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Nov 10, 2020 20:55
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fancy stats posted:Isn't now, when they're trying to win an election, when the public should have the greatest leverage to try to push a candidate left? It's not like Ossoff's policies are necessarily set in stone. I'd argue the primary is the time to push candidates on policy, since theoretically you have a choice of multiple candidates and the universe of voters is much narrower ideologically. Once you hit the general election the overriding principle for a candidate is "Do no harm" - you want to avoid saying anything that will drive away squishy republicans or motivate turnout on the other side. Given Georgia's historical status as a Red state, it's not surprising that the candidates are tacking the center - especially since very similar positions already drove historical turnout in the cities and delivered a statewide win for Biden. I'm sure the thinking (correct or not) is that if Ossoff/Warnock come out in favor of the GND/M4A/court packing it'll be used as a bloody shirt by the right to drive turnout in the special election. It could easily backfire if the right gets amped up with all of this "They stole the election" nonsense and the left stays home, but I imagine they're counting on the prospect of taking control of the senate for the first time in 6 years will be sufficient to bring the left out, while the right is demoralized with Trump losing.
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Nov 10, 2020 20:57
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Coredump posted:Let me try to run this hypothetical through. If we pressure the candidates to go left and they don't what recourse do those of us who try to push them left have? Either not vote or vote for the other candidate and both of those are counter to what we want to achieve right? I feel like at some point, shouting "look how much worse the other guy is" is just going to lead to a demotivated voter base. Also, I'm not sure the middle is what won the state: https://twitter.com/tbonier/status/1324687796016218112
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Nov 10, 2020 20:58
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Ruzihm posted:Isn't this like saying "Jim's dad ate 2 big macs every day for 40 years and barely survived his 60s, so I hope his son is doing the same to survive his 60s as well"? I don't really understand this logic. No I don't see how those analogies relate at all to be honest. Georgia is a solidly purple state at the moment. Out of the 4,988,857 votes cast, it came down to 12,566 votes to go for Biden. That's 0.25% of the total vote that ended up deciding it. Given those circumstances I can understand Ossoff's strategy of running as a more centrist Dem and then one in office moving left. And even if he doesn't move left, he's still better than Perdue.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:00
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fancy stats posted:I feel like at some point, shouting "look how much worse the other guy is" is just going to lead to a demotivated voter base. The attempts by Clyburn, Mccaskill, Spanberg to blame the left for house losses has resulted in a huge pushback with stats showing that leftist candidates outperformed centrists, even in swing districts. Ossoff either is genuinely opposed to leftist policy, or has the peanut gallery above shouting at him every other day.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:01
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The idea that we're going to get any possible progress under Purdue or loffler is laughable and yes we're well aware that BLM is what pushed the win and that black voters made the win but this is a runoff not a primary the candidate we have are the candidates we have and there's nothing that's going to change that so you might as well vote for the candidates who are more likely to be swayed left rather than candidates who are hard right
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Nov 10, 2020 21:01
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fancy stats posted:I feel like at some point, shouting "look how much worse the other guy is" is just going to lead to a demotivated voter base. I wouldn't want to shout that either. But during a runoff with control at the senate at stake it feels pretty appropriate.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:04
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CommieGIR posted:
No I think they are right, if Ossoff wants votes he should find some better policy positions real quick because Perdue and Loeffler are not Donald Trump and will not drive the same kind of spite votes.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:04
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Harold Fjord posted:No I think they are right, if Ossoff wants votes he should find some better policy positions real quick because Perdue and Loeffler are not Donald Trump and will not drive the same kind of spite votes. What they do in the Senate will be almost as bad as the damage that a trump presidency will have McConnell has made that much Clear we cannot achieve anything if we don't have the Senate but especially since ossof supports DC and Puerto Rico statehood the Dems stand to benefit if we can take the Senate has made it clear to he basically supports the principles of the green New Deal he supports Renewables he's supposed to environmentalism he supports everything we need to sway him left it's not like that isn't already there but under Purdue none of that will happen CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:07
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CommieGIR posted:What they do in the Senate will be almost as bad as the damage that a trump presidency will have McConnell has made that much Clear we cannot achieve anything if we don't have the Senate but especially since ossof supports DC and Puerto Rico statehood the Dems stand to benefit if we can take the Senate yeah, that's why he should probably get some better policy positions. Because if he wants to win, he needs votes!
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Nov 10, 2020 21:08
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Harold Fjord posted:No I think they are right, if Ossoff wants votes he should find some better policy positions real quick because Perdue and Loeffler are not Donald Trump and will not drive the same kind of spite votes. If people on the left choose not to vote for the Dem candidate because he's not left enough between a choice of two, thus allowing the Republican right leaning candidate to win. That would be the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:10
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