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Coredump posted:If people on the left choose not to vote for the Dem candidate because he's not left enough between a choice of two, thus allowing the Republican right leaning candidate to win. That would be the very definition of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I see we have still learned nothing from 2016. You have to motivate people to vote, especially in a smaller election like this. Half assed poo poo like ossoff's campaign are not motivating. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:10
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Harold Fjord posted:yeah, that's why he should probably get some better policy positions. Because if he wants to win, he needs votes! Nobody Is arguing that ossoff doesn't need better policy positions but that's in a that would be more of an issue in a primary where in a runoff ossoff is the candidate he's the only candidate he's the only one worth getting we better make it work or we stand lose any chance of a green new deal at all
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Nov 10, 2020 21:10
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody Is arguing that also doesn't need better policy positions but that's in a that would be more of an issue in a primary where in a runoff Asif is the candidate he's the only candidate he's the only one worth getting we better make it work or we stand lose any chance of a green new deal at all My understanding of "I do not support a green new deal" means he will vote present or nay (in agreement with republicans) on the issue. Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:11
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CommieGIR posted:Nobody Is arguing that ossoff doesn't need better policy positions but that's in a that would be more of an issue in a primary where in a runoff ossoff is the candidate he's the only candidate he's the only one worth getting we better make it work or we stand lose any chance of a green new deal at all We get it! JFC! You don't have to keep posting the exact same thing in response to every criticism of Ossoff. In fact, loving stop it's annoying as poo poo.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:12
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Ruzihm posted:Ossoff will caucus with the republicans to stop the green new deal if necessary. That is what "I do not support a green new deal" means. None of that true he's openly said he supports Renewables and he supports a job plan around Renewables he supports all the principles of green New Deal you have no evidence other than what he said about the green New Deal that he would do this Purdue on the other hand is sure to vote with whatever the GOP pushes forward
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Nov 10, 2020 21:12
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CommieGIR posted:You have no evidence other than what he said about the green New Deal that he would do this [Chadishly] Yes.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:13
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Harold Fjord posted:I see we have still learned nothing from 2016. If there are voters out there that would pass on voting for Ossoff to let Perdue take the senate seat, losing any chance for control of the senate then those are some very short sighted voters is all I can say. I would hope 2016 taught us what happens when you sit out of an election because you didn't get your way.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:13
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Ruzihm posted:[Chadishly] Yes. Somebody needs to post a picture of the how to lie Congressional style photo because you don't understand what he's doing It's Obamacare versus the ACA act all over again
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Nov 10, 2020 21:15
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Coredump posted:If there are voters out there that would pass on voting for Ossoff to let Perdue take the senate seat, losing any chance for control of the senate then those are some very short sighted voters is all I can say. I would hope 2016 taught us what happens when you sit out of an election because you didn't get your way. This dumb rear end loving framing doesn't help win anything and in fact prevents proper analysis of your losses. More people not vote than do for either party, and it's not because they "didn't get their way".
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Nov 10, 2020 21:16
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If nothing else, Ossoff and Warnock should both be reliable votes for whatever the new version of HR 1 looks like, and the Democrats controlling the senate will enable it to be brought up for a vote. It's an open question whether the Republicans would dare to filibuster a bill that does nothing but make it easier for folks to vote (of course they will!), but if the Democrats can get voting reform passed then it makes it much easier for taking back power in the future by electing more leftward candidates going forward. 4 new senators from DC and PR could seriously dilute the power of a Manchin/Sinema/Ossoff in future chambers and make passage of good things more likely. Losing both seats gives the Republicans an opportunity to consolidate power again in the state legislatures and reset the gerrymanders that have started to fade as folks relocate. I think those are good enough reasons to be excited to donate to and volunteer for both candidates in the runoff.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:16
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Harold Fjord posted:This dumb rear end loving framing doesn't help win anything and in fact prevents proper analysis of your losses. More people not vote than do for either party, and it's not because they "didn't get their way". You're talking to a person who wrote in Bernie on his 2016 presidential vote and wishes he could go back and vote Clinton because HRC would have 100x better for the country than the last 4 years we got with Trump. I mean look what's happened to the Supreme Court for just one example.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:17
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Coredump posted:You're talking to a person who wrote in Bernie on his 2016 presidential vote and wishes he could go back and vote Clinton because HRC would have 100x better for the country than the last 4 years we got with Trump. I mean look what's happened to the Supreme Court for just one example. This doesn't mean anything.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:19
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Harold Fjord posted:This doesn't mean anything. It means a lot it means that he pointing out that you're willing to throw away long term gains for a short-term shift left and that's really damaging
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Nov 10, 2020 21:20
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Do we have any evidence on how popular things like M4A and the GND are among Georgia voters and particularly Georgia Democrats? It seems to me like that would be a much better avenue of discussion than going back and forth like this.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:20
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CommieGIR posted:It means a lot it means that he pointing out that you're willing to throw away long term gains for a short-term shift left and that's really damaging His individual vote doesn't matter any more than anyone elses. Individual vote shaming is net negative, in that it makes people dislike you. It is incumbent on the candidate to give people a reason to vote for him, as he is the only one with real ability to affect the outcome as a whole, and we can discuss what might make people want to vote for him as Majorian is suggesting, but simply declaring that everyone HAS to is a dead end that brooks no further debate.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:23
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Harold Fjord posted:His individual vote doesn't matter any more than anyone elses. Individual vote shaming is net negative, in that it makes people dislike you. It is incumbent on the candidate to give people a reason to vote for him, as he is the only one with real ability to affect the outcome as a whole, and we can discuss what might make people want to vote for him as Majorian is suggesting, but simply declaring that everyone HAS to is a dead end that brooks no further debate. Okay this is a really shity take because you're arguing that's okay to lose the Senate as long as we lose one guy who might be a little too moderate for your taste that's bad thinking
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Nov 10, 2020 21:25
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Harold Fjord posted:His individual vote doesn't matter any more than anyone elses. Individual vote shaming is net negative, in that it makes people dislike you. It is incumbent on the candidate to give people a reason to vote for him, as he is the only one with real ability to affect the outcome as a whole, and we can discuss what might make people want to vote for him as Majorian is suggesting, but simply declaring that everyone HAS to is a dead end that brooks no further debate. You don't HAVE to vote Ossoff. Your choices are Ossoff, Perdue, or sitting out. For your personal politics which is the most preferable for you?
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Nov 10, 2020 21:25
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Coredump posted:You don't HAVE to vote Ossoff. Your choices are Ossoff, Perdue, or sitting out. For your personal politics which is the most preferable for you? And neither is a choice to but at the end of the day you're going to get one of those picks regardless if you choose neither or not And while Ossof agrees with the underlying principles behind GND, and could likely be swayed to vote for it, Purdue will vote straight party line. How much more time do you think we have to wait for a perfect leftist candidate before we're hosed by Climate Change, especially during a runoff where nobody else is on the ticket? CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:28
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Majorian posted:Do we have any evidence on how popular things like M4A and the GND are among Georgia voters and particularly Georgia Democrats? It seems to me like that would be a much better avenue of discussion than going back and forth like this. This is what I found from early last year. 57% support for the full GND, same as Minnesota for instance. I wonder how it has changed since then. https://www.dataforprogress.org/green-new-deal-support
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Nov 10, 2020 21:31
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Ruzihm posted:This is what I found from early last year. 57% support for the full GND, same as Minnesota for instance. I wonder how it has changed since then. So vote for Ossof, as he's much more likely to support it than Purdue. Wasn't that difficult was it, since you only had two choices.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:33
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Coredump posted:You don't HAVE to vote Ossoff. Your choices are Ossoff, Perdue, or sitting out. For your personal politics which is the most preferable for you? It's potentially a worthwhile argument that Ossoff might do better if he were to adopt more explicitly leftist positions because it establishes a clear distinction from his rivals. With evidence, it could be proven that there is an untapped well of leftist support that would be activated in Georgia if the Democratic candidate would take positions in favor of the GND and M4A, and I think that it what the posters here are trying to argue. However, I think the evidence suggests otherwise. We have an electorate that hit 100 year records for turnout on both sides, and the Democrats just barely squeaked by while taking moderate positions. Taking leftist positions would be beneficial if there was some significant remaining population that stayed home that would otherwise be motivated to vote. This argument further assumes that the segment of the population that would be energized by leftist positions would clearly be greater than the segment of the population that would be energized on the right. I think we have some evidence that the moderate path has a chance of working (by virtue of the state barely turning blue), but no evidence that the other path is as likely to be successful. As such, without some kind of evidence showing that there's untapped slack in the leftist population that would outweigh the "bloody shirt" effect on the right, I don't think it's reasonable to think that going left is likely to be helpful in this situation. Now, there's also the argument that turnout is going to be depressed across the board without Trump on the ballot, but he certainly has a way of making these things all about him so I don't think you can entirely discount his impact on the runoff (see, for instance, 2018). Even if everyone in Georgia is suffering election fatigue and turnout is down for the January 5th election, you still have to prove somehow that juicing turnout on the left by coming out in favor of the GND and M4A isn't going to have a equal or greater effect on the right. All in all, if I'm a candidate running in a well funded election and my internal numbers indicate that there isn't much of a left left to activate, it seems entirely rational to play it safe and avoid saying anything too controversial and hope I can keep up turnout with the same positions the ticket just took that won the state a week ago. Ruzihm posted:This is what I found from early last year. 57% support for the full GND, same as Minnesota for instance. I wonder how it has changed since then. I think the big question though, is of the voters who support the GND, how many are turned off by Ossoff's tepid language on climate change such that they would stay home (or vote for Perdue because they like fascism otherwise or something)? And are there more of those folks than folks on the right that will be driven into a frothing rage if they think Ossoff wants to take their burgers away due to supporting the GND? I suspect the campaign thinks the former is less than the latter. NJ Deac fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:35
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CommieGIR posted:So vote for Ossof, as he's much more likely to support it than Purdue. "much more"? Why do you think that? Do you think his position is different from manchin, who caucused with the republicans to vote for disapproving the gnd? https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=116&session=1&vote=00052 Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 21:37
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NJ Deac posted:It's potentially a worthwhile argument that Ossoff might do better if he were to adopt more explicit leftist positions because it establishes a clear distinction from his rivals. With evidence, it could be valid that there is an untapped well of leftist support that would be activated in Georgia if the Democratic candidate would take positions in favor of the GND and M4A, and I think that it was the posters here are trying to argue. You raise very good points. One thing I worry about is turnout being depressed on both sides since Trump is not on the ballot. I know my main motivation to vote this year was to vote AGAINST Trump. I'll definitely vote in the runoff but I expect turnout to be down on both sides.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:38
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NJ Deac posted:I think the big question though, is of the voters who support the GND, how many are turned off by Ossoff's tepid language on climate change such that they would stay home (or vote for Perdue because they like fascism otherwise or something)? And are there more of those folks than folks on the right that will be driven into a frothing rage if they think Ossoff wants to take their burgers away due to supporting the GND? I suspect the campaign thinks the former is less than the latter. For their sake I hope they're right. At least one leftist platform was shown to have a positive effect on new registrations, so my reading is there are voters there to be had, while my concern is without the uniting goal of kicking Trump out on his rear end you end up with a repeat of his congressional loss.
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Nov 10, 2020 21:52
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Ruzihm posted:"much more"? Why do you think that? Do you think his position is different from manchin, who caucused with the republicans to vote for disapproving the gnd? https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=116&session=1&vote=00052 Do you NOT think Ossoff's position is different from Manchin? Let's compare what is readily available on their websites: Joe Manchin posted:As West Virginia's senior Senator, Senator Manchin is proud of the critical role the Mountain State plays in providing energy to our nation. Senator Manchin believes in an all-of-the-above energy policy and, as Ranking Member of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, he has doubled down on his commitment to a broad range of pragmatic climate solutions. Energy experts agree fossil fuels will continue to play a significant role in our energy portfolio for decades to come. On the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Senator Manchin is ensuring West Virginia coal communities have a seat at the table to discuss cleaner energy solutions and opportunities for economic development in our clean energy future. Jon Ossoff posted:The health of the environment is vital to our own health, prosperity, and security. In the Senate, I’ll make energy and environmental policy on the basis of scientific evidence — not lobbying by polluters. I wish Ossoff's soundbite was a clear "Yes I support the GND" but I think there's a lot of air between what Ossoff says he supports and what Manchin let alone Perdue or other Republicans will support.
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Nov 10, 2020 22:01
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"VOTE TO STOP TRUMP!!!" Barely squeaked out a presidential win and saw what, 6 lost centrist House seats? How do you think "VOTE TO STOP [REPUBLICANS]" is going to fare? Will "Stop Loeffler" gin up the support that "Stop Trump" failed to manifest? If the answer in your heart is "it will not", then you are accomplishing nothing trying to votescold the like 4 max people in here who both live in Georgia and are criticizing Ossoff. You're better off going down to his office and yelling "support leftist policy you loving idiots!".
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Nov 10, 2020 22:13
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Is there literally any polling for any of this, or is this whole thing a total unknown shitshow so far?
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Nov 10, 2020 22:15
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Neurolimal posted:"VOTE TO STOP TRUMP!!!" Barely squeaked out a presidential win and saw what, 6 lost centrist House seats? How do you think "VOTE TO STOP [REPUBLICANS]" is going to fare? Will "Stop Loeffler" gin up the support that "Stop Trump" failed to manifest? Unless the people running Ossoff's campaign are reading this thread, such posting is irrelevant and has no purpose. Be as mad as you want about Ossoff, his positions, and his campaign, it doesn't make any difference. This thread is about doing what we can to get him elected.
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Nov 10, 2020 22:17
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Sharks Eat Bear posted:Do you NOT think Ossoff's position is different from Manchin? Let's compare what is readily available on their websites: I don't doubt that Ossoff has different opinions when it comes to inadequate changes like re-entering paris climate agreement or whether coal should be replaced with what the democratic party considers "clean energy sources" i.e., increasing production of fracked fossil fuels and then exporting them instead of consuming them here to pay for "greener" domestic energy. Not to be rude, but I'm curious primarily about the GND. Deteriorata posted:This thread is about doing what we can to get him elected. Is it not also about debating and discussing the policies of the candidates? Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 22:19
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I thought it was a foregone conclusion that yes, we do want people in Georgia to vote for these two Democratic candidates because that is (barring the fantasy of somehow convincing a current GOP senator(s) to take a position in the Biden admin and/or Al Gross pulling out a miracle win in Alaska) our only hope of getting any legislation we want done until 2022. I'm not sure what there is to debate other than how to get people to vote for them.
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Nov 10, 2020 22:33
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CommieGIR posted:Somebody needs to post a picture of the how to lie Congressional style photo because you don't understand what he's doing Can you cite any prominent examples of a democrat campaigning on right wing positions, getting elected, then switching to much further left positions? I can think of a whole bunch that go the other way and quite frankly ascribing Ossoff's positions as 4-D chess sounds exactly like what people who though Biden would win 400 electoral votes by not taking a single left position were saying about 8 days ago.
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Nov 10, 2020 22:37
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Ruzihm posted:
Not as far as I can tell. This thread was established to discuss on-the-ground activism to aid his campaign. His policies are easily found with Google searches. If you don't like him and don't think he should win election, then this thread isn't for you.
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Nov 10, 2020 22:38
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Fair enough.
Jalumibnkrayal fucked around with this message at 23:12 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 23:04
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Ruzihm fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Nov 10, 2020 |
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Nov 10, 2020 23:07
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Jalumibnkrayal posted:The NoJoes did the same poo poo with Biden: trying to discourage progressives from supporting him because he didn't meet their purity standard. It was indistinguishable from a Republican psyop to lower progressive turnout. There's no conspiracy to make democrats look bad. If they make themselves look bad then that is their fault. Jalumibnkrayal posted:Even if Ossoff isn't going to support these policies, you can't imagine a situation when we need control of the senate for something else that is also important? Really? I'm sure he would be instrumental in the debate over balanced budgets that Manchin will press. Some folk dont care about that, and that's not a failing on their part; politics are transactional, and some people have different prices for their support than you do. That does not make them or you wrong. There's also the fact that some are criticizing Ossoff's approach not to encourage voting against him, but out of concern for his success. Centrists just performed horribly across the nation in the most favorable parameters humanly possible. It's a toxic position for him to dive headlong into. I'm sorry if there are center-purists for whom this is hard to hear.
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Nov 10, 2020 23:13
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Neurolimal posted:I'm sorry if there are center-purists for whom this is hard to hear. Ruzihm posted:I hope him being against some really good things loses him the election for being inadequate opposition Deteriorata posted:This thread was established to discuss on-the-ground activism to aid his campaign. His policies are easily found with Google searches. If you don't like him and don't think he should win election, then this thread isn't for you.
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Nov 10, 2020 23:20
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Coredump posted:And if that's the case then why are you here? Clearly because I disagree with Deteriorata about the purpose of this thread?  Sorry, I should have said that I hope that if/when he loses it's recognized as* because he ran an inadequate platform. I see I was very unclear with that and I apologize.
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Nov 10, 2020 23:31
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Ruzihm posted:Clearly because I disagree with Deteriorata about the purpose of this thread? If he loses and we're going to have bigger things to worry about because we're going to have to deal with a stall Senate that McConnell controls thanks a lot
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Nov 11, 2020 00:47
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I dislike his policies and think they could/will lose him the election, because they are bad policies, and I think he should change them because I want him to win! But CommieGIR posted:If he loses and we're going to have bigger things to worry about because we're going to have to deal with a stall Senate that McConnell controls thanks a lot I promise we understand this. Just make it your sig if you aren't sure though. We may have some disagreement on how good things could possibly be, since if they don't change the filibuster then it's all down to one big reconciliation bill anyway, but this isn't the thread. Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Nov 11, 2020 |
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Nov 11, 2020 00:56
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CommieGIR posted:So vote for Ossof, as he's much more likely to support it than Purdue. This is literally every election now. Voting Democrat is objectively the best thing to do if you actually care about leftist things. Otherwise gently caress off (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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