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Gripweed posted:I always come down to “did this character talk like a regular person in the original?” If so, then they should talk like a regular person in the translation. If accuracy to the dialogue requires weird or stilted dialogue, it should be changed to reflect accuracy to the character. this could be taken very uncharitably "why don't the people in this japanese cartoon talk normal like me dangit!" I'm not saying translation should just be each word presented in the same order, I know that's not a good way to translate, but I wouldn't want some Shinto concept westernised just because I haven't encountered it before.
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Apr 14, 2024 22:47
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starkebn posted:this could be taken very uncharitably I think you can talk about Shinto in English.
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Apr 14, 2024 22:54
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Gripweed posted:I think you can talk about Shinto in English. yes, the part of localisation I don't want is changing concepts to more "relatable" things from the country you're localising it to. I have no problem with making sentences make sense grammatically. Different groups of people are talking about different parts of the concept of localisation. If you change a character's skin tone or sexual orientation because you think it's going to offend someone in the country you're localising for it's changing the original artists intent.
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Apr 15, 2024 02:06
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I think all localization should make simple, innocent crossdressers into woke lib transsexuals
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Apr 15, 2024 02:24
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starkebn posted:If you change a character's skin tone or sexual orientation because you think it's going to offend someone in the country you're localising for it's changing the original artists intent. has anyone actually done that recently
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Apr 15, 2024 02:28
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Bring back the translators note
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Apr 15, 2024 02:58
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I think the reason it's being talked about right now is this so depending on how you read some sections, and if they lean far enough in certain directions, you could say that's what could happen.
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Apr 15, 2024 03:01
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net work error posted:Bring back the translators note 
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Apr 15, 2024 03:01
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All the rare dishes they make in Dungeon Meshi should be burgers and fries. If they kill a rare monster then they have spaghetti with meatballs.
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Apr 15, 2024 03:09
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starkebn posted:yes, the part of localisation I don't want is changing concepts to more "relatable" things from the country you're localising it to. I have no problem with making sentences make sense grammatically. localization is a function of corporate media sales strategy there's no such thing as original artists intent in this case because there's no such thing as corporate art
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Apr 15, 2024 04:25
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starkebn posted:so depending on how you read some sections, and if they lean far enough in certain directions, you could say that's what could happen. that would be a very bad-faith reading
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Apr 15, 2024 05:57
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galagazombie posted:Yeah localization is actually way more accurate than it’s ever been. The old days were absolutely dire. You’d never see something as egregious as Robotech in this day and age. I’m still of the opinion that things could be better, but let’s not delude ourselves and pretend that the nefarious woke conspiracy is defiling the once noble and sacred art of the translator, when the truth is it’s been getting way better. It doesn't help that their go to example is from the Dragon show from what 5 years ago and that its literally the same meaning in the sub version. What prompted this recent wave of complaining about woke in anime and the obssession with Sweet Baby at the same time?
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Apr 15, 2024 06:43
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watching dungeon meshi and drat I wanna eat this food
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Apr 15, 2024 07:04
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Thats what the dragon said
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Apr 15, 2024 07:15
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KomradeX posted:It doesn't help that their go to example is from the Dragon show from what 5 years ago and that its literally the same meaning in the sub version. Oh that's easy, twitter turned into stormfront 2 and all the journalists and influencers kept using Twitter when bluesky didn't have any Nazis to interview and find bipartisan compromise with
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Apr 15, 2024 07:29
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Second Hand Meat Mouth posted:watching dungeon meshi and drat I wanna eat this food That's the authorial intent I think
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Apr 15, 2024 07:29
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starkebn posted:this could be taken very uncharitably The questions go a lot deeper than just category though; within that there's no general reason to call a shrine a jinja, debate over whether you want miko, priestess, or shamaness, and no general reason to call the Orochi a hydra. And I say "general" reason because I've found specific reasons to do each of these in a particular context at times; you need an understanding (or, being honest re: production cycles, well-honed gut feeling) of where the work's going, especially because sometimes the author is bringing in the westernized concepts themselves and then using the Japanese name to localize their influences for their readers.
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Apr 15, 2024 08:44
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KomradeX posted:What prompted this recent wave of complaining about woke in anime and the obssession with Sweet Baby at the same time?
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Apr 15, 2024 15:56
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Gripweed posted:I think you can talk about Shinto in English. I think that we SHOULD
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Apr 15, 2024 18:10
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Augus posted:it’s really cool how consistent it is that if you see an example of really good localization in an anime or Japanese video game there is gonna be a 100+ thread on the internet by some jackass with Google translate that thinks the localizers butchered the original intent and a more accurate translation would’ve been some broken English that has no emotion, humanity, or subtext Stop giving me Death Note flashbacks.
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Apr 15, 2024 18:13
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Stairmaster posted:I think that we SHOULD Old trees should be respected
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Apr 15, 2024 19:32
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just learn Japanese. It's easy.
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Apr 15, 2024 19:37
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Casey Finnigan posted:just learn Japanese. It's easy. yup
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Apr 15, 2024 19:55
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Retromancer posted:Stop giving me Death Note flashbacks. Just according to keikaku
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Apr 15, 2024 20:01
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Casey Finnigan posted:just learn Japanese. It's easy. I've heard the opposite
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Apr 15, 2024 20:53
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No idea how accurate it is, but I once was told something like: “Japanese is the easiest language in the world to become illiterate in.” regarding the difference between the spoken language and the writing system.
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Apr 15, 2024 21:32
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My feeling about more "heavy" localization is that it's objectively the best way to do things, but I do still occasionally feel bad about stuff being lost in translation (even though I know there's no reasonable way to include them in localization).galagazombie posted:No idea how accurate it is, but I once was told something like: “Japanese is the easiest language in the world to become illiterate in.” regarding the difference between the spoken language and the writing system. I actually disagree with this pretty strongly. Japanese has incredibly easy purely phonetic alphabets at its "core." In high school we literally learned them (hiragana/katakana) in 6 weeks, and I think in college they do it in even less time than that - even at 38 and not using it in my daily life, I can still read/write hiragana/katakana perfectly fluently. And you can get by to some extent without kanji; if you look at manga they'll often have the phonetics for each kanji included*, since a lot of younger children are going to be reading them. English is far harder, because its spelling rules are extremely inconsistent and arbitrary. Japanese on the other hand is almost entirely purely phonetic - if you see some hiragana/katakana, you know exactly how to read it outloud. Learning to read kanji is also pretty easy (since you can often infer things from context); writing is a lot tougher since you actually need to memorize them. They're mostly composed of similar "sub-parts," which makes memorization a lot easier, though. I actually find speaking Japanese to be harder, because its sentences are structured very differently to English (specifically sentences ending with the verb). So there's this "delay" where I have to mentally restructure things in a way that's not intuitive to me as a native English speaker. * Take this One Piece page as an example - note that some of the words have little characters written next to them - those are the phonetic writing of the kanji in question: 
Ytlaya has issued a correction as of 21:50 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 21:46
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You'll eventually have to learn kanji if you want to actually be able to read and write Japanese. If you only know hiragana and katakana you're on the level of a young elementary school kid. However that said, stuff that's written exclusively in kana is way harder to read than normal Japanese with kanji. Furigana is nice but it's not in everything. On the internet with tools you can get furigana/better-than-furigana on mostly everything but it's kind of a crutch so I try not to overdo it. Kanji pronunciations are just as arbitrary as weird English non-phonic pronunciations Handwriting kanji is extremely hard but it's not super necessary in the modern day. You type in the kana and your phone/computer presents a list of matching kanji and you pick one. I never bothered trying to learn kanji radicals. imo that poo poo doesn't even help. I just see the kanji 7000000 times, look it up 7000000 times and hopefully I eventually remember it. E: actually, radicals can help identify the meaning of a symbol at first glance, it's just not always a clear link and it's not always helpful which is why I never put too much time into it e: I don't think Japanese is actually easy irl. it does have a claim for being the hardest language for an English speaker to learn due to the laboriousness of learning all the kanji and their pronunciations. I think after all the time I've spent I'm still probably in the "functionally illiterate" area in comparison to a native Japanese speaker. Grammatically it's not complicated though. If you're gonna be whining at translators online learning some Japanese would actually be a better use of your time and energy Casey Finnigan has issued a correction as of 22:27 on Apr 15, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 21:54
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Radicals are also very important for guessing pronunciation, but here's where the hardness (and the English-likeness) come in: like English there are several distinct waves of loanwords that form a major part of day-to-day vocab, and while in English you understand the pronunciation but have to know when and how the word came in to understand how it's written or what it means, in Japanese you can have that or also know the meaning of the writing pretty directly but have to understand when and how it came in to understand how it's pronounced. They're not difficult per se, they're just in a messy place where they're hard to cram because there's a couple hundred each with three or five readings depending on the loanword itself (and that tells you nothing about the few Yamato-native words the kanji are also used for.) So it ends up very much a system in which progress is usually multiplicative; if you learn say 胴 and 脚 you have learned that "torso" is pronounced "dou" in most compounds, "leg" is pronounced "kyaku" in most compounds, kanji with 月 on the left are often body parts, kanji with 同 on the right or alone are often pronounced "dou", and kanji with 却 on the right or alone are often pronounced kyaku, and then have a head-start on seeing 腕 and getting that it's a body part pronounced something like "on" or "en" in compounds like 宛 is. Just, that last one is actually pronounced "wan" in compounds because the technical term for a body part got sanded down less in casual speech than the base it uses, and in any case these are all things that rhyme in heavily-accented middle Chinese; in casual usage the last two are "ashi" and "ude", all additive scaling on knowledge that you just have to memorize. So, generally, a perfect recipe for crushing hopes at the beginning of study because your progress scales exponentially and there ain't much exponent there yet, and then destroying the language-training expectation of "by the book will get you by and two-four years in college is competent if stilted" because (again like English) the exceptions are vital rather than something ruthlessly crushed by L'Académie.
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Apr 15, 2024 22:35
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Casey Finnigan posted:You'll eventually have to learn kanji if you want to actually be able to read and write Japanese. If you only know hiragana and katakana you're on the level of a young elementary school kid. However that said, stuff that's written exclusively in kana is way harder to read than normal Japanese with kanji. Yeah, but that still means you can become literate at the level of a small child in just a few weeks, due to how strictly phonetic it is (which is why I'd argue that it's probably significantly easier to get literate in Japanese than in most other languages). Either way, as you mention reading kanji isn't very hard since you just learn to recognize them or can tell what they mean based on context. And it is easier than reading a long uninterrupted string of hiragana or something.
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Apr 15, 2024 23:29
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just watch dubs ez
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Apr 15, 2024 23:42
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Ytlaya posted:Yeah, but that still means you can become literate at the level of a small child in just a few weeks, due to how strictly phonetic it is (which is why I'd argue that it's probably significantly easier to get literate in Japanese than in most other languages). I think it depends on what you mean by literacy. I personally would say that, at the point I'm at, reading kanji is hard. There's not always enough context in a sentence to figure out the meaning of an unfamiliar kanji. Plus there's also the problem that you can know the meaning of a kanji but not know its proper pronunciation in the context that you're reading it in. The thing that makes a lot of kana super hard to read is that a big long string of kana uninterrupted by kanji is very hard to parse. The kanji help break the sentence up and make things clearer. I know the meaning and pronunciation of the word 狂気 very well (cause of the intro to Death Crimson on Sega Saturn where the guy says it in a stupid voice). But it took me forever to remember how to pronounce 狂った because the pronunciation is different, despite the character being the same as the first one in 狂気. If you ever played the indie game Ib, the player character is a kid who still can't read super well. If you try to read the plaques in that game in the JP version you'll get things like "This is a spirit ???. At a glance, it's beautiful, but if you get too close you will be sure to suffer a ???. It can only bloom in the flesh of a ???." When you don't know enough kanji it does kind of feel like that. Also I'm pretty sure Mandoric is a lot better at Japanese than me Casey Finnigan has issued a correction as of 00:24 on Apr 16, 2024 |
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Apr 15, 2024 23:47
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Popy posted:just watch dubs ez
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Apr 16, 2024 00:43
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Apr 16, 2024 00:48
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Studying kanji with Wanikani has been kinda fun but I know very little grammar and am functionally illiterate so maybe don't do only that.
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Apr 16, 2024 01:35
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Casey Finnigan posted:I think it depends on what you mean by literacy. I personally would say that, at the point I'm at, reading kanji is hard. There's not always enough context in a sentence to figure out the meaning of an unfamiliar kanji. Plus there's also the problem that you can know the meaning of a kanji but not know its proper pronunciation in the context that you're reading it in. But is it harder than learning to read most other languages? Like sure, becoming fluent/literate in any new language is inherently difficult (I'm certainly not "fluent" at reading kanji myself), but I think Japanese is probably easier than, say, English.
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Apr 16, 2024 04:56
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As someone for whom English isn’t their first language, and who has tried (unsuccessfully) to learn half a dozen other languages, I’m going to take the bold stance that English is actually stupid easy and the only hard part is the numerous weird exceptions to rules The fact that it’s not a gendered language alone makes it way easier than every language that is
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Apr 16, 2024 05:31
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Kit Walker posted:As someone for whom English isn’t their first language, and who has tried (unsuccessfully) to learn half a dozen other languages, I’m going to take the bold stance that English is actually stupid easy and the only hard part is the numerous weird exceptions to rules
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Apr 16, 2024 11:16
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I'm learning it casually atm to hopefully go see some sumo on my honeymoon and I taught myself the kana alphabets in literally like 6 hours total using tofugu.com Then you just gotta spend the rest of your life learning kanji It's a pretty fun language though. It's very different from English but all the resources try to convert it into English to teach you which isn't very helpful, like the basic phrase "watashi wa" doesn't mean "I am" and telling me it did made me very confused when ga made an appearance. (it means roughly "as for me" and doesn't make you the subject of the sentence like ga would. In the sentence "watashi wa anime suki da" it's not "I like anime" like they teach you. It's "as for me, anime is likeable." anime is the subject not me. the wa just clarifies you are involved in the sentence and you wouldn't use it at all in speech if it was already obvious you were talking about yourself.) Theres also quite a lot of "this language is complex and crazy with loads of exceptions" from the resources which turns out to not be entirely true they just haven't bothered to learn the rules and etymology cause they don't fit into thinking in english. Personally the toughest bit has been all the words that use the same sounds but they're not unique in their language there.
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Apr 16, 2024 11:35
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As someone who learned english as a second language and has been struggling to learn japanese for way longer than I will ever admit yeah no english is insanely easier to learn that japanese
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Apr 16, 2024 12:42
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