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If this forum is gonna be educational at all, we gotta talk about hands!! Let's post those hands!! HOW TO POST HANDS You can use a formatter such as this: https://upswingpoker.com/convert/ To post in your raw hand history and then paste it in here. MAKE SURE TO CHOOSE PLAIN TEXT AND NOT FORUMS CODE. If you do forums code it's going to format it for like 2p2 and it's going to be a huge mess. If you use Holdem Manager you can get the text to copy by right clicking on the hand in the list of hands at the bottom and clicking copy, then paste it into that formatter. We can also click on the replayer link it posts so it's pretty convenient. You can also use http://www.pokerhand.org/ To generate a link that will have the converted hand people can look at. I sort of prefer to keep it all onsite because then if something happens to pokerhand people can still see the hands here later, but if you really love pokerhand you can use it instead. If you do, and you're pasting from Holdem Manager, use "Copy with stats" to get it in a format pokerhand won't be upset with. If it's from a live game or you just don't have the hand history, the things we need at minimum to make any sort of answer at all are: - The stakes (blind levels) - The positions - Your cards and the exact community cards on every street that you saw - The actions taken by all players in the hand on every street that was played This all sounds obvious I think to anyone who plays but I have had people in real life text me things like "I got queens should I go allin" so I think it's best to just have this out there. Other tips for posting hands: Anyone who plays NL can give you advice about what to do about a hand "in a vacuum", as in you have no reads on anyone at the table, no history, etc. However, this is only one piece of the puzzle. Despite poker's general movement towards a lot of people trying to play a game theoretically optimal style that doesn't care how opponents are playing, the way to make the maximum amount at any table is always going to be trying to get reads on your opponents and exploit them. Therefore, it's best if you include any reads you have (stats if you use a HUD, including how many hands the stats are from), any history with the player that might be relevant (ex. I just bet into him on river 3 times in the last 10 hands and he folded all of them), and anything else you got that might go into your thought process. It's also good if you can post what you already think about the hand so that people can critique your thought process, and also so that you can be honest with yourself about what you thought and not see someone's answer and go "yeah I thought that too". Try to post the ranges you put your villains on especially, hand reading is very important in poker and if you are getting it wrong it can really damage your game. If you want to include results, people usually recommend spoiler tagging them so that they can respond without being unconsciously influenced by them. Let's shuffle up and post!!!!!! Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 00:27
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Ok so one of my favourite things about playing live is the occasional weird loving floor rulings and I just saw this Bart Hanson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXoG-I0MOE. I know this isn't like a situation that comes up often but after the flop I think I am dumb enough to stack off like this guy.
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Jan 12, 2021 17:55
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Bill Door posted:Ok so one of my favourite things about playing live is the occasional weird loving floor rulings and I just saw this Bart Hanson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXoG-I0MOE. I know this isn't like a situation that comes up often but after the flop I think I am dumb enough to stack off like this guy. Lol I’d totally be “old man” in this situation too, while still smelling that UTG has pocket 7 Well I guess I’d probably actually choose to fold the hand as soon as they told me I had to expose my hand to everyone, but if I was drunk or something I might go with it
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Jan 12, 2021 22:17
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Bill Door posted:Ok so one of my favourite things about playing live is the occasional weird loving floor rulings and I just saw this Bart Hanson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXoG-I0MOE. I know this isn't like a situation that comes up often but after the flop I think I am dumb enough to stack off like this guy. I guess I'm impressed that this Bart Hanson guy came out with his own story where he got completely emasculated. That's p funny, at least he owns up to it.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:07
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Bill Door posted:Ok so one of my favourite things about playing live is the occasional weird loving floor rulings and I just saw this Bart Hanson video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNXoG-I0MOE. I know this isn't like a situation that comes up often but after the flop I think I am dumb enough to stack off like this guy. lmao well this isn't EXACTLY what the critique thread is for but this hand was pretty funny so I still enjoyed it
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Jan 12, 2021 23:31
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Micro (.02/.05) 6max Zone on Ignition (Can't download hand history for some reason) Stacks: Button (Me) - 300bb - 3 UTG+1 - 350bb BB - 100bb Hero - 2h,2d Preflop: UTG+1 raises to 15 Hero - call BB - call Flop: 2c,9c,5c UTG+1 bets 45 Hero calls BB raises to 2.35 UTG+1 shoves for 15.00 Hero...
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Jan 13, 2021 02:56
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tminz posted:UTG+1 shoves for 15.00 kind of a gross spot but i dont see how he has anything but flushes. absolute best case scenario is something like AA with the Ac which still has a lot of outs
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Jan 13, 2021 03:01
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Alright I’ve got a hand but it’s from tonight on an app in a local nightly $25 bounty tourney Blinds: 125/250, hero has 8960(high stack), starting stack is 6k and it’s currently 9 handed. Hero has KsTh UTG+2 calls 250 Hijack calls 250 Cutoff(hero) calls 250 Sb calls 250 Bb checks Flop 9d3hKh. Pot is 1250 Sb bets 250 Folds to hero(cutoff) who raises to 1000 Sb calls Turn is 2s Pot is 3250 Sb checks Hero bets 2437 Sb calls River is As giving us 9d3hKh2sAs Pot is 8124 Sb checks Hero....? Sorry if I hosed up formatting or posted it badly, I am on mobile. I’m guessing here I should have been aggressive pre or just folded. Limping in such a late position kinda felt like poo poo, but with so many limpers I wasn’t quite willing to bet real big even though I was chip leader. Being a little too passive is a big hole in my game that I’m trying to plug. If anyone’s curious I’ll post the results later. Just wondering if my betting line makes sense or not. I kind of suck rear end at tournament poker when there are short stacks and find myself playing a hand like KT off then get jammed on pre, and it has messed with my head. Tetramin fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 03:20
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Tetramin posted:Alright I’ve got a hand but it’s from tonight on an app in a local nightly $25 bounty tourney Yeah I would generally raise pre, you don't really want to limp with a hand like this that really wants to play vs as few people as possible. As played it's probably fine, I think I'd probably check river as I don't think you're gonna get paid off by too much that you beat.
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Jan 13, 2021 03:32
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:kind of a gross spot but i dont see how he has anything but flushes. absolute best case scenario is something like AA with the Ac which still has a lot of outs Yea I folded, I guess I'm probably calling if I'm not as deep. Definitely a gross spot though, particularly when I'm only calling flop this deep to try and cooler the other deep stack. (UTG had top set, BB had the flush)
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Jan 13, 2021 03:38
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Stefan Prodan posted:Yeah I would generally raise pre, you don't really want to limp with a hand like this that really wants to play vs as few people as possible. As played it's probably fine, I think I'd probably check river as I don't think you're gonna get paid off by too much that you beat. Ok yeah, makes perfect sense. I ended up checking the river and got beat by K9. If I had bet enough to make them fold that pre I would’ve been better off. The dynamics at these tables sort of played into it but I just kinda misplayed the shut out of the hand
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Jan 13, 2021 03:49
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tminz posted:Micro (.02/.05) 6max Zone on Ignition (Can't download hand history for some reason) Not gonna give a guy credit for a turn squeeze with air at the penny/nickel level unless he's already shown himself to be clearly a drunken aggrodonk. Best case you're in a race, but most likely one of those two guys (BB already squeeze and is yet to act on the reshove!) has you crushed. Easy fold. I hate the flop call with bottom set on a monotone flop unless you have a read that BB is a super passive fish that you want to keep around.
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Jan 13, 2021 04:09
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tminz posted:Micro (.02/.05) 6max Zone on Ignition (Can't download hand history for some reason) Bearing in mind that A) I'm bad at poker, and B) I'm also really badly out of practice, but: why did you call the pre-flop raise into you with deuces? My range on the button normally wouldn't include 22, I might have a read that has me opening up that far, but in that case I'm almost always raising not calling. I really don't want to see a flop against 2+ other players with 22, unless I'm short stacked and desperate, and UTG+1 has just signaled strength, do you think his range is wide enough that 22 is ever ahead?
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Jan 13, 2021 05:28
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300bb deep at the penny/nickel level my button call range is any two cards.
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Jan 13, 2021 14:03
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Eric the Mauve posted:300bb deep at the penny/nickel level my button call range is any two cards. I assume this is a joke but if it isn't I'm gonna engage earnestly for the sake of anyone else reading also: You may be tempted to do this because your opponents are terrible and you feel like if their range is huge yours can be too. Well, your range can be bigger than usual, but preflop is the street where you should probably make the smallest adjustments from your normal optimal game plan (and on the river your adjustments should be the most extreme, where you can have opponents you never bluff against for example). You can still play some more hands than you would, but generally especially at lower limits you shouldn't play by coldcalling nearly ever because the rake is gigantic. Small pairs are probably some of the most acceptable for coldcalling though because they are quite happy to end up playing against 5 people or something and their implied odds are huge. But I mean if you're just there to gamble then do whatever you want but presumably anyone in the critique thread wants to ask about how to win
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Jan 13, 2021 21:17
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Leperflesh posted:Bearing in mind that A) I'm bad at poker, and B) I'm also really badly out of practice, but: why did you call the pre-flop raise into you with deuces? My range on the button normally wouldn't include 22, I might have a read that has me opening up that far, but in that case I'm almost always raising not calling. I really don't want to see a flop against 2+ other players with 22, unless I'm short stacked and desperate, and UTG+1 has just signaled strength, do you think his range is wide enough that 22 is ever ahead? You actually do, small pairs really just want to hit a set and get all the money in or not hit a set and sheepishly go home. If you have 22 you're actually quite happy in most circumstances for a ton of people to see the flop because it makes it pretty likely that someone hits top pair or two pair or something and gives you a bunch of money if you hit a set, and if you don't you can be very sure you don't have to put any more money in. This is called "implied odds", when you are gonna win a bunch potentially when you hit but your downside is limited.
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Jan 13, 2021 21:19
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Stefan Prodan posted:I assume this is a joke but if it isn't I'm gonna engage earnestly for the sake of anyone else reading also: Yeahhhh that's some really good points. My view was focused on "low pairs rarely get there at showdown, so just semi-bluff with them" but "try and flop a set" is the bit I was kinda forgetting about. And, if you are calling preflop with any two cards, your table image is going to be that you're doing that, yeah? "This guy is in every single hand" is one of the easiest reads I get to make at a table, and it informs how much credit I give stuff like continuation bets. e. implied odds is one of those concepts I was just starting to pay attention to when my interest in and engagement with poker was trickling off. I need a refresher, clearly.
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Jan 13, 2021 21:35
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Leperflesh posted:Yeahhhh that's some really good points. My view was focused on "low pairs rarely get there at showdown, so just semi-bluff with them" but "try and flop a set" is the bit I was kinda forgetting about. Yeah I mean the way you beat the guy playing any two cards is to just be playing way stronger cards than him, you can definitely play MORE hands than usual, but if you just play as many hands as him you are just dragging both of you down to the rake
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Jan 13, 2021 21:46
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Yeah the rake killing you is a good point on why you want to play a tighter range, but you should be playing far more hands on the button than up front, and the deeper stacks get the truer that is. The really unusual thing about the hand that was posted was being 300bb deep, everything is far far different with super deep stacks than with the typical online stacks of 50-100bb. Even at microstakes I hate the idea of getting 300bb in on bottom set on a drawy board.
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Jan 13, 2021 22:01
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Eric the Mauve posted:Yeah the rake killing you is a good point on why you want to play a tighter range, but you should be playing far more hands on the button than up front, and the deeper stacks get the truer that is. Well yeah that's true that you should play more hands on the button but that actually is usually in reference to your opening range, where you might open say 45-50% hands on the button vs 17-18% up front. However, once somebody's already in, things change a lot because you no longer have the chance of ending the hand without rake unless you 3bet. Most players even at higher stakes where rake is lower don't coldcall more than a few % on the button, in addition to 3betting maybe 7-8% vs an UTG opener. And yeah I mean nobody here advocated getting it in on flop, I think we all agreed this was a good fold. I'm just saying you definitely can't profitably call any two on button even at micro stakes, this would be a huge leak.
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Jan 13, 2021 22:14
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Stefan Prodan posted:Well yeah that's true that you should play more hands on the button but that actually is usually in reference to your opening range, where you might open say 45-50% hands on the button vs 17-18% up front. I haven’t done much study for a long time, but what would a calling range look like there? Maybe like pocket 7s-10s, KJ-KQ suited? Somebody fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jan 13, 2021 |
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Jan 13, 2021 22:18
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Tetramin posted:I haven’t done much study for a long time, but what would a calling range look like there? Maybe like pocket 7s-10s, KJ-KQ suited? Yeah so it would usually be something like lower pocket pairs, some medium suited connectors, and some stuff like KJs Here's an example from a very good player for what he does preflop if he has a coldcalling range in that spot
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Jan 13, 2021 22:33
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Tetramin posted:Alright I’ve got a hand but it’s from tonight on an app in a local nightly $25 bounty tourney Raise to about 1000 preflop. KTo doesn't play great multiway, you'd be in a better spot postflop with less people and the initiative. Flop: The raise is good, get some value from SB if he has a piece of the board Turn: Bet too big. I'm assuming SB has 6k starting stack, he'll be left with 2500 in a 8000 pot if he calls. I'd bet 1800 at the most. River: Check back, he's unlikely to call with worst.
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Jan 14, 2021 03:27
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Does this go here, considering the context that I went all in immediately? Piss-poor poker probabilities/plays, perhaps? EorayMel fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Jan 14, 2021 |
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Jan 14, 2021 06:24
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EorayMel posted:Does this go here, considering the context that I went all in immediately? Nah, I think we need a general gently caress around thread or something, this isn't really a hand for critique.
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Jan 14, 2021 06:37
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tminz posted:Micro (.02/.05) 6max Zone on Ignition (Can't download hand history for some reason) This is definitely a fold for 300bbs.
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Jan 21, 2021 22:45
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This is sort of a two part query; partly about this specific hand but also about my general approach to play. I began to wonder if I was far too timid with my play. Other players could get me to fold with big bets quite easily when I didn't have the nuts. I realised players were figuring this out, and getting money off me, but I was also losing money because I'd fold to players who hadn't figured me out but were just willing to play with risk. My style of play was that I was very concerned about not enduring big swings (even on a single buy in.) I'd always try and inch my stack up, rather than taking the swings and, in essence, I wasn't "gambling" (even considering they should be intelligent gambles.) I tried to correct all that with this hand, and even more so after playing it. It was a 1c/2c cash game, so the very lowest level. They guy had just come in and played 12/13 hands. He'd seen every flop, raised pre-flop about half the time, and was making a serious amount of CBets. He was aggressive at all points, except, maybe, the river. I didn't feel he was just getting cards as part of a run; these types of guys are constant at the level I'm playing, and if I'm not getting cards I don't know how to deal with them. I did get cards with this hand. aricast19 (UTG): $2.50 (125 bb) xiruspitao (UTG+1): $3.49 (175 bb) Mrendatious (MP): $1.01 (51 bb) prohomecom (MP+1): $3.59 (180 bb) Djek300 (LP): $1.97 (99 bb) wcopali195 (CO): $2.98 (149 bb) Shininggg (BU): $1.92 (96 bb) kolin 141 (SB): $2.02 (101 bb) vactorman (BB): $0.96 (48 bb) Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Mrendatious) is MP with 9♥ 9♣ 2 players fold, Mrendatious (MP) raises to $0.04, 4 players fold, kolin 141 (SB) 3-bets to $0.06, 1 fold, Mrendatious (MP) calls $0.02 Flop: ($0.14) 5♣ 4♠ A♠ (2 players) kolin 141 (SB) bets $0.02, Mrendatious (MP) raises to $0.08, kolin 141 (SB) raises to $0.14, Mrendatious (MP) calls $0.06 Turn: ($0.42) 8♣ (2 players) kolin 141 (SB) bets $0.20, Mrendatious (MP) raises to $0.81 (all-in), kolin 141 (SB) calls $0.61 River: ($2.04) Q♦ (2 players, 1 all-in) Total pot: $2.04 (Rake: $0.07) Showdown: Mrendatious (MP) shows 9♥ 9♣ (a pair of Nines) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 71%, Flop: 70%, Turn: 84%, River: 0%) kolin 141 (SB) shows 3♦ Q♥ (a pair of Queens) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 30%, Turn: 16%, River: 100%) kolin 141 (SB) wins $1.97 My read was I thought he might be looking for the flush, but it was a low chance. I didn't put him on the ace from the flop, he would have slowed a little. I figured at best he had a lower paired card than me and a face card suited, probably a J or Q. I had a strong feeling I was beating him. I took his 2c after the flop as him just trying to push me off cheaply with a guess I hadn't hit the flop, and the raise on my raise as just a continuation of his aggression. Maybe the 20c raise after the turn should have given me moment to pause, but I really didn't think he had me beaten at this point. Before going all in I thought the chances of him folding versus calling was about 60:40, with him thinking I was just tilting at his aggro being why he would call. From thinking now (with hindsight) if I played it again I wouldn't have gone all in (having a small stack was part of the decision, looking to double up) but I would have raised his raise, maybe somewhere from 16c to 32c rather than going all in. I'm not sure on this, because I still had him on a face card that hadn't hit yet, and wanted to get him out of the hand at that point, even if I was happy if he called. I'll be honest and say I didn't consider he had the possibility of a straight. So, related to the first piece of my question, is this the kind of hand—not this specific one, just in general (however better I should have played it)—where you have to just take your lumps? Or, more broadly, is this type of big up and down in stack size, rather than slow and steady increases or decreases, just part of the territory I need to bring into my game?
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Jan 21, 2021 23:42
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I don't want to be unkind, but if you can't handle the occasional river suckout when you got your One Dollar in good against a gigafish at the penny-ante level, poker just might not be the game for you. FWIW I think your attempts at soul-reading a penny-ante gigafish based on 13 hands are pretty insane. He's just clicking buttons with any two cards, I mean look at how this hand turned out.
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Jan 22, 2021 00:10
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Mrenda posted:This is sort of a two part query; partly about this specific hand but also about my general approach to play. So, first, it's good that you're trying to adjust vs opponents and not just going "ah an ace hit, I'm doomed", because if he's really playing any two cards, as you say, you are very likely still ahead. That said, there's a lot of stuff I'd do different here. Firstly, at such low stakes, I'd be opening very large. The rake is very big and opponents will call you way wider than they should, so minraising is about the worst thing you can do. I'd be opening to like 5 bb or even 6 bb normally at like .01/.02. Even bigger is fine if people will call you regularly. Even at higher stakes there's opponents I'll start opening 4 or 5 bb against, if I don't think people are going to start punishing me with 3bets and the whale is still going to call those amounts. The pot starts building as soon as you put any money in and the pot size will increase exponentially based on the action from the earlier streets so you can make the pot much much bigger by the end with your good hands by just getting more money in preflop and on flop. Second, the line of thinking that "he's clicking buttons with any two cards therefore I can't fold because 99 is still way ahead of any two cards" is good, if he's this wild then you probably are ahead the vast majority of the time. Flop is a little weird for me, I don't absolutely hate it because you do sometimes fold out some things like KQ that have very good equity against you, or make them put more money in behind as you did with his ridiculous holding. For me I think your hand might be slightly too weak to be worth putting in a raise though, I feel like he will just have so many aces that I think this is a little thin. I would definitely be fine with it with any ace I think. This raise would also be better if you had something like 98s because in the times you are behind, you would have 5 outs to improve instead of 2, even though your hand is strictly worse. So I think for me personally I'd probably just flat call flop. Turn, again, like I can see the thought process if you think he's just blasting with any two cards that he can still have 2 kinds of flush draws, worse pairs that have a gutshot, worse pairs without a gutshot that will apparently call if he's this insane, etc, so I mean if you already knew he was going to play in a way to actually CALL your turn shove with air as he did, I think this is fine actually. As long as you already had that read. There are other players that will put pressure on you but then just fold their air here because I mean it takes a special kind of bad to bet/call it off with Q high here, a lot of the times drawing completely dead. If he's one of those types, where he will have any two cards, and just blast every street, I would probably just call and then close my eyes and call river knowing that you will lose a lot but win easily more than enough and probably more than even half the time vs his way too wide range. Regarding variance, it's very common for players to win or lose 5 buyins a day, that's like completely unremarkable. Winning or losing 10 buyins a day happens like reasonably often (I haven't done it in awhile but back when I got games more regularly, probably once every few months if i was playing 1000-1500 hands a day). You definitely have to be used to a large amount of variance, that's why a lot of players use like 40-50 buyins at minimum for a bankroll now, with some really cautious players even using 100. People play a lot more aggressively on every street than they used to back when people would say stuff like 20-30 buyins was fine for a bankroll. Anyway, the only time you should really ever be concerned with variance is if you absolutely think a spot is so close you just can't tell what to do I think it's fine to just fold or not do the bluff or whatever, but you have to be careful if you are doing that on a site where people can track your stats long term and you could eventually get exploited. In general I would try not to worry about the variance effect of a hand and only think about the EV. I just noticed that you said this dude only had 12 or 13 hands and I dunno, like, for me this is a pretty wild adjustment to make based on only 12 hands, although if he had played literally every hand and was blasting them I don't think it's unreasonable to call down to at least river and then decide, probably ending up calling when two different flush draws bricked and stuff, but that amt of hands might be too little for me to go with the turn shove.
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Jan 22, 2021 00:42
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Mrenda posted:This is sort of a two part query; partly about this specific hand but also about my general approach to play. I think you should relax and not make as many assumptions as you currently seem to be making. Don't assume people are necessarily figuring anything out about your play at 1c/2c. While I'm sure there are people using tracking software and trying to play seriously and win/improve, it's the lowest possible stake there is so most are just clicking buttons without much logic. As for the actual hand, you say you didn't put him on the ace on the flop. You need to stop thinking like this. You don't put people on exact hands, that is some 2006 stuff. You assign them a range. Considering he min3bet you preflop and mincbet the flop, he is probably not a good player and most likely does not have a reasonable range on the flop. He can still definitely have an ace though. Your flop raise doesn't really accomplish anything. Even though at this point he seems to just be someone who wants to continuously click the minraise button, you are better off calling the flop and raising a more polarized range. Yes 99 is most likely ahead vs someone who might have 90% of hands here, but it is not a hand that wants to play a big pot. You want to play a big pot when you have a good ace or better. With smaller pairs just call him down. Turn raise just really is not good. If you think he is full of poo poo, you keep clicking call. By raising turn you give him the option of folding everything you beat. Anyway, the most important thing for you is to stop putting people on exact hands and start thinking in terms of ranges. What are all the hands your opponent can show up with and what hands do you want to then be calling, raising and folding. As for your last question about swings. Losing stacks in poker is unavoidable, it doesn't matter how good you are you will still have a rough stretch of variance and get rekt from time to time. Last year I played half a million hands of online cash games and had plenty of times I just seemingly lost 10-15buyins in a couple of days. But if you keep making correct decisions then in the long run those won't even be a blip in the radar. Finnish Flasher fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 01:34
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Eric the Mauve posted:I don't want to be unkind, but if you can't handle the occasional river suckout when you got your One Dollar in good against a gigafish at the penny-ante level, poker just might not be the game for you. It's not that I can't handle it, it's just that that wasn't how I was playing. I figured with guys coming home from twelve beers and logging onto play poker with $2 until it's gone (five minutes later) or they got up to $5 (and that's gone two hours later) that the I should really be seeing my win line just go up in steady small steps. I don't like seeing the amount of money I won go down, but it's not because I lost $2, it's because I'm losing. But people are saying watching your amount won/lost line be a bit wandering is fine, so I'm fine what that. I just thought (without reason, I'm very much clueless) I should be seeing it constantly go up. As for reading on 13 cards, it's partly a read on the play at the stakes. He fit, very quickly, into a type of player you see a lot. It wasn't so much as seeing him play 12 hands, but seeing him play 12 hands and another ten guys like him play 50 hands and disappear already. Stefan Prodan posted:Regarding variance, it's very common for players to win or lose 5 buyins a day, that's like completely unremarkable. Winning or losing 10 buyins a day happens like reasonably often (I haven't done it in awhile but back when I got games more regularly, probably once every few months if i was playing 1000-1500 hands a day). You definitely have to be used to a large amount of variance, that's why a lot of players use like 40-50 buyins at minimum for a bankroll now, with some really cautious players even using 100. People play a lot more aggressively on every street than they used to back when people would say stuff like 20-30 buyins was fine for a bankroll. That's just what I was wondering, really. I need to get to a position where I'm making informed decisions on the odds on something, not just a guesstimate based on intuited calculations, even if they're good gutstimates. I'm very much a beginner, I play for a few weeks in a year when I get in the mood, which is why I'm playing for the lowest stakes. Thanks for the help, both of you. (And FF who posted while I was typing this.) I really just have to play more to get to the point I'd like to be at. Quick Edit: And by play more I mean get to the point of experience and knowledge where I know my win/lose line is going down because I'm unlucky or maybe just playing badly. Not just that it's going down and then figuring I have to make a change in reaction to it (based on absolutely no knowledge.) Mrenda fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 01:44
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Finnish Flasher posted:I think you should relax and not make as many assumptions as you currently seem to be making. Definitely agree with this, I don't think the idea of putting him on basically any two cards is ridiculous, but I think like for some reason thinking he can't have an ace was kinda weird. If your assumption about him just out here completely clicking is correct (which apparently it was), he can have anything! He can have top set! We just have to weight it by the combinations of stuff he can have, so while it's reasonably unlikely he can have an ace, it's still like definitely possible.
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Jan 22, 2021 01:49
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Mrenda posted:Quick Edit: And by play more I mean get to the point of experience and knowledge where I know my win/lose line is going down because I'm unlucky or maybe just playing badly. Not just that it's going down and then figuring I have to make a change in reaction to it (based on absolutely no knowledge.) People can logically understand variance and still not intuitively understand (or have calculated with standard deviations etc.) the degree to which that affects their stats. You should probably not draw any conclusions about your win/lose line until A) it's got at least 50k hands in it or so, and B) only project changes on that line on the scale of 10k+ hands or more. I suspect you are trying to see if you're getting better or worse (in terms of wins) on the basis of maybe a couple hundred or so hands and that will tell you nothing at all. Variance will be the dominant factor, with your skill being such a comparatively smaller factor that it's lost in the noise. All that said: you can and should aspire to improve your play, by asking questions and studying and learning, to whatever degree you feel inclined to devote time and effort to doing that; and I think especially when first learning poker, you'll know intuitively that you're getting better because you'll keep learning kind of big lightbulb-above-your-head WOAH poo poo for some time to come and each one of those lessons cannot help but improve your game. For an example from earlier in the thread, I was reminded about implied odds. Understanding implied odds and using that information when making decisions will definitely improve a player's game, no need to look at their win/lose line to find that out.
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Jan 22, 2021 01:55
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Stefan Prodan posted:Definitely agree with this, I don't think the idea of putting him on basically any two cards is ridiculous, but I think like for some reason thinking he can't have an ace was kinda weird. If your assumption about him just out here completely clicking is correct (which apparently it was), he can have anything! He can have top set! We just have to weight it by the combinations of stuff he can have, so while it's reasonably unlikely he can have an ace, it's still like definitely possible. Yeah, that's fair. In your earlier post you said about opening at 5bb or 6bb at these stakes. Just based on my own temperament, play and mentality as a learner—at the moment—for me to play with that amount of investment in a hand I can see myself needing to hit cards far more often. And for my play to be more informed and cohesive. It's not where I am yet. And I haven't seen that kind of play in what I've seen this time around, so I haven't had any way to watch how it plays (which is more how I learn.)
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Jan 22, 2021 02:07
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Mrenda posted:Yeah, that's fair. Yeah I mean so you're sort of already crippling yourself right off the bat if you're giving up EV to play in a way that makes you more comfortable. That's something I would really try to fix as soon as you can. Also like I mean it's fine to play at a lower stake if you have a crutch of worrying about a certain $ amount, although obviously you can't go lower than this. I'm presuming that you have some attachment to the idea of not losing a certain # of bbs or buyins or whatever and you should try to work on getting rid of that as soon as you can and just worry about what will make you the most bb/100 and then like if you can't stomach a certain $ loss then you play a bit lower maybe, but I assume that this isn't because you can't stand the idea of losing a dollar or two. You also need to get rid of the idea of like "hitting cards" because that's really dangerous too. Most of the money won in poker is by a person continuing to apply aggression when they don't have anything, and the other person not having a strong enough hand to continue. Like say you raise 6 bb with AQ, one of two things are going to happen: Either a bunch of people will call, in which case you will hit top pair 1/3 of the time or so and you've built the pot up so much that you can just be comfortable getting all the money in because the stacks are so shallow thanks to your big opening raise, or you didn't hit anything and you just give up because there's tons of people and someone probably hit something. This is actually really good because like if you raise to 5-6 bb preflop and 3 people flatcall you preflop and the pot is now like 15-20 bb, and you have like AQ on A83 or something, you're probably fine if 100 bb goes in at some point on or before the river because again the pot is already so big relative to stacks by the the time the flop came out that people have to just kind of go with a good top pair. By making the pot bigger pre you actually make it a lot easier to play your most common big money hand which is top pair top/good kicker. Or, one person calls and you cbet most of the time for halfpot or something and usually win, and if you don't win it right there, you have a decent % to either improve, or hit a card like a king that will make them fold later because they have it so much more rarely than you do. If you don't take advantage of spots like that you just aren't going to win, I mean you can maybe win some amounts at really wild games by just hitting hands and getting it in, but you're going to have to get comfortable winning your share of the nobody has anything pots. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 02:34
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Mrenda posted:It's not that I can't handle it, it's just that that wasn't how I was playing. I figured with guys coming home from twelve beers and logging onto play poker with $2 until it's gone (five minutes later) or they got up to $5 (and that's gone two hours later) that the I should really be seeing my win line just go up in steady small steps. I don't like seeing the amount of money I won go down, but it's not because I lost $2, it's because I'm losing. But people are saying watching your amount won/lost line be a bit wandering is fine, so I'm fine what that. I just thought (without reason, I'm very much clueless) I should be seeing it constantly go up. To touch on your concern about losing or winning small/big amounts at a time... is probably something you should try to get over. What are you going to do when you have like second or third nuts and someone bets huge on you, just fold it every time because you’re worried about losing half your stack to a set or something? Don’t worry about what increments you’re winning or losing in, that’s going to make you play differently, and the way you’re talking, probably make you fold more than you need to and make you miss some big wins. Yeah, it hurts to be up to 130BB and all of a sudden be down to 80BB because you get beat, but it happens. Obviously this doesn’t mean you always stay in the pot when you have a pretty decent hand, it’s more just that this sort of thinking is probably going to be harmful to your play and you should be focusing on other stuff than that. E: maybe an applicable bit of common advise for this concern is to instead remember to keep the pot small with your small hands, big with your big hands, the results aren’t so important Tetramin fucked around with this message at 02:47 on Jan 22, 2021 |
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Jan 22, 2021 02:42
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All of this is what I was getting at in my first post about the hand. I was too concerned about swings up in down in the win/loss column (not the actual dollar amounts at this level, just the positive/negative) and I was trying to adjust to playing where this didn't rip me out of two many hands because of that fear. I just don't have the actual poker-playing knowledge to implement that greater "gumption" in the correct places, but the thread is helping me with that. So thank you all, again. And I played a few hands with opening raises to 5bb, and it was fine, so thanks as well for the kick on that. The swing up was bigger, and when I made some boneheaded plays (that I know were stupid, I was already switched off thinking about x'ing out) the losses were compensated by the bigger wins I had.
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Jan 22, 2021 04:33
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Another hand from me, I hope you don't mind... sardin777 (UTG): $2.95 (148 bb) Mrendatious (UTG+1): $1.66 (83 bb) whatdoyouknow (MP): $2.02 (101 bb) stazman289 (MP+1): $1.93 (97 bb) Amore494 (CO): $0.84 (42 bb) SzaboNorb144 (BU): $2.03 (102 bb) esfandiari1983 (SB): $2.79 (140 bb) vcrankzz (BB): $0.48 (24 bb) Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (Mrendatious) is UTG+1 with K♦ Q♠ 1 fold, Mrendatious (UTG+1) raises to $0.10, whatdoyouknow (MP) 3-bets to $0.20, 5 players fold, Mrendatious (UTG+1) calls $0.10 Flop: ($0.43) Q♣ 8♦ 6♠ (2 players) Mrendatious (UTG+1) bets $0.14, whatdoyouknow (MP) raises to $0.83, Mrendatious (UTG+1) folds Total pot: $0.71 (Rake: $0.02) whatdoyouknow (MP) wins $0.69 All I have on this guy is he's LAG, maybe fifty hands and he's seeing around 30% of them. He's been swapping cash with a guy who's very button happy and generally coming out 50/50 on it. I felt I could get value from him after the flop, maybe my raise is just too small. I didn't expect such a sizeable re-raise. Maybe he has me pegged and has pushed me off a hand, but I've not seen him play a hand this aggressively. I couldn't remember him 3-betting pre-flop, and never such a large raise post-flop. I know there's few hands beating me, but with this guy I just have no clue. Is this a call? A shove? Was I correct folding? Do I just check after the flop is dealt instead of raising 14c, figuring I have the best hand, and don't put myself into a spot with the potential of this re-raise? (Even though I thought I could get money out of him.) I'm trying to get better at the guys who are like this (and who'll press buttons) but in this case I found it very hard as this guy (not quite wild in what he was doing) and another guy (even looser and much wilder) had position on me.
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Jan 23, 2021 00:22
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Mrenda posted:Another hand from me, I hope you don't mind... Don't worry about it, we are here to talk about hands, post as many as you got questions on So, your problems sort of start preflop. Since he only minraises you it can be reasonable to call, but you still need to be fairly sure that he actually is 3bet bluffing and stuff. Do you have a HUD that can show 3bet stats? Some people are very loose but for example just limp or call and don't raise or 3bet much, whereas some people open raise every time and 3bet 40% or something, so it's really important to just know how much he 3bets, because this could even just be a fold pre even to this size, if you are just always dominated or even drawing nearly dead. Like if you were playing a live casino game vs an old man whose stats would be something like 12/6/3, this would be an easy fold even to a min 3bet, especially from these positions. As played, yeah, typically we always check the next street when someone has put in the last aggressive action on the previous street, because their range is almost always stronger and it's usually sort of on them to choose whether to continue the aggression or not. So usually I would check here on flop, and what I'd do then depends a lot on the opponent, and sort of what you want to accomplish. Against an aggro opponent, I would plan to probably just check/call every street, for these stack sizes and on this board. Against someone more passive, I might check call once and then give up. The sort of advanced move would be check raising which is a reasonable possibility, but it would only be part of a larger GTO strategy involving also check raising things like 87s, 76s, KQ, AQ, JTs, and T9s. This would be done in a scenario where you think the opponent is very wide and you may actually not make as much with a hand like KQ but as part of a larger strategy, you can make them fold things that have a lot of outs like AJ or KJ when you have a hand like 87s, as well as sometimes get there if they call and you give up. I wouldn't really recommend taking this line, it's a line that solvers like but again you really have to figure out the boards it's good on and what you're trying to accomplish with it. I just wanted to discuss it if you were wondering if check raising is a thing we should do here. Anyway it's really hard to say how much money to call off here. You absolutely have to check/call flop, there's no universe where we can call the 3bet pre, hit top pair, and then fold. I would say if you think the opponent is very narrow with 3bets I'd probably check/fold turn but if you think they were this narrow then you should have just folded to the 3bet pre. If you think they're fairly loose and could have hands like T9s, JTs, a backdoor flush draw, etc that will barrel then this is a very easy hand to check/call your stack off with. This will be most people at higher stakes. However, at higher stakes nobody is gonna min3bet you and when they do 3bet you a normal size KQo is an easy fold out of position. If they check back turn I'd also bet like halfpot on a lot of blank rivers, don't be scared, people don't really check back their good hands on turn. Honestly if you have a loose aggressive player on your left, it's just not a good table. You really want nits on your left and loose people on your right. Even if you have like a fish on your right it can be very hard to play if there's a lag player on your left that will constantly knock the fish out of the pot and make things between you two instead. The answer mostly to have loose aggressive players on your left is to open a bit tighter but defend the hands you do open a bit harder, but the other answer is just look to change table. Having a really loose calling station player on your left isn't as much of a disaster because they aren't exploiting their positional advantage.
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Jan 23, 2021 00:50
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Thanks for the advice on the 3-bet pre-flop. 3-betting is not something I have a handle on. At this kind of play the opponents seem too variable to get a good idea of when to do it yourself, and when others do it it's hard to gauge the table's reaction. I feel like I'd really need both the hand, and table position, and the right type of player already in the hand before I try it for myself, or to adjust to when I'm going to play those hands. And I do have tracker software, at least a trial of one. I'm mostly using it to track my win/loss, and to replay hands after they happen. I turn the HUD off because I'm only playing one table. I feel like I should just be watching that table, for the moment, and I don't want to misuse software through a lack of understanding that puts me in difficult spots. I did just have a little fun, on a table that broke pretty quickly after this happened. A guy comes in, stays quiet for maybe five hands, all normal, then goes all-in six out of eight hands. Losing four of them and instantly reloading. As soon as he doubled up he limped into a few pots. Then, I think, he realised either sleeping or drinking another beer would be more fun and he quit. The table broke.
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Jan 23, 2021 01:41
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