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Mrenda posted:
I'm not nearly as good as Stefan or any others that may comment on this hand, but there are a few things here that I want to call out, because I feel like you might be making some of the same moves (read: mistakes) that I did when I first started playing. I feel like trying to define players (LAG, loose-passive, tight-aggressive, etc), at these stakes is kind of a waste when a) you may never see them again because its low stakes, and b) your focus should be on hand selection preflop based on your position and not so much about the guy that is betting strong on 30% of hands (which could be ok based on a 50 hand sample). In those hands he is playing with the button (the button in this hand or the button when he is in the BB?), how many are going to showdown and what kind of cards do they have? All broadways and pocket pairs or low suited connectors or even trash? Are they snap-calling/snap raising each other or are they letting a little time lapse before making a decision? I don't want to bog you down with too many questions that may flash in your head the next time you play and overwhelm you, but these are questions that can help inform you as you get more comfortable playing over the long term. As played, I don't necessarily mind the KQo open with a sizeable raise. Early position opens need to be on the higher end of your range, because you want to be able to comfortably call a 3 bet when they do come in, or you may want to occasionally 4-bet if you have a monster or know the villain will 3 bet light and call your 4-bet. His min raise is ridiculous, because it barely builds the pot for later streets, and no one at that level is going to fold to a min 3 bet when they open UTG+1, and nobody at a higher level is goin to min 3 bet. On the flop, you have top pair with a good kicker on a pretty good board (no flush draws, possible gut shot with JT, T9, T7 54; possible open ender with 97, 75). I agree with Stefan, always (95% of the time) check the flop to the aggressor, and then evaluate. Here I would definitely check call the flop, because you have a good hand. If he were to check behind, I would probably bet-call the turn if I improve (trip queens, pair my king) or if the board is a blank. If an ace comes on the turn, I would most likely check-fold to a half-pot plus bet. On the river, bet-call any blank (no 3 card flushes, no 4 card straights). When I first started I would get hung up on a lot of hands, because you see the pros play on tv and make these great plays or perfect laydowns, and when I would be in similar situations I would get hung up because Phil Ivey played this exact hand and scored a huge pot so I can do it too! Really, microstakes are about playing tight and aggressive. Once I figured out my opening range from early position was going to be XX hands and I would fire a 3x or 5x raise, and my calling range in late position was going to be YY hands calling 3x raise, but not a 3 bet, that freed me up to look at 3 bets I could bet, how I would play later streets, and was I being too tight against this villain or too passive in these spots. Fire up the HUD, and only note the numbers when there is a hand you are stumped on, because when you come and post hands here and say a guy has VPIP of 20% or 56% that will change the way your hand and villain's hand are reviewed, and we will explain to you what those numbers mean in the situations you post. I would recommend doing a screen grab so you have them available. Also, please keep posting. This thread helped me a ton when I first started playing, even though all I did was lurk.
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Jan 23, 2021 06:47
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Beyond everything else that's been posted, Stefan's table selection advice is really really important and you should think about that stuff a lot because almost no-one else at those stakes is.
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Jan 25, 2021 16:00
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dunno where else to put this so i'm putting it here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOzUM5RqYzs
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Feb 6, 2021 03:38
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Dunno where else to put this so in putting it here 
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Feb 6, 2021 15:41
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did you want a critique of that hand?
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Feb 6, 2021 15:45
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I used to play a lot of micro-stakes 8-10 years ago and I've started playing a bit more the last few days. Micro zoom hand below, no read/stats on villain. What's the right play here, fold turn? ------------------------------------ PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players BTN: 96 BB SB: 190.5 BB BB: 228 BB UTG: 73 BB Hero (MP): 113.5 BB CO: 157 BB SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6s 6c fold, Hero raises to 4 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 3 BB Flop : (8.5 BB, 2 players) 5d 3h 3s BB bets 4.5 BB, Hero calls 4.5 BB Turn : (17.5 BB, 2 players) 3d BB bets 23 BB, Hero calls 23 BB River : (63.5 BB, 2 players) 2h BB bets 195.5 BB, Hero ?
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Feb 6, 2021 19:30
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I’m fine calling turn but I just fold the river when he shoves. You don’t really have a great hand to call down because you block some of his most common semi-bluffs on the flop: 76, 64, and 62 are all less likely for him to have since you hold two of the sixes. Also he could just have higher overpairs sometimes and play this way if he overvalues them. I doubt a 5 plays this way, and I doubt a straight shoves the river. You’ll have so many better hands to call down with in this spot that 66 is a good hand to fold on the river IMO. I’m 50/50 on the turn call but it seems fine. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Feb 6, 2021 |
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Feb 6, 2021 19:43
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Calling turn makes no sense if you're going to fold river in this spot IMO. After donkbetting flop and overbetting turn you can't expect he's going to shut down on the river. I feel like in the moment I would probably make the call and then probably hate myself for it afterward. But the turn overbet is where your stack off or fold decision lies. It's been more than a decade since I regularly played the penny stakes, but back then this villain line would have been a snap call vs. a pennystakes rando with a big stack. Huge chance he'll turn out to be a drunken aggrodonk. I don't know how those games play today. In general triple-calling off your stack is a deadly bad habit though, unless you have good reason to believe you're in against an aggrodonk. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 6, 2021 |
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Feb 6, 2021 20:02
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Dunno where else to put this so in putting it here costanza you’re an rear end in a top hat
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Feb 6, 2021 21:19
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Eric the Mauve posted:It's been more than a decade since I regularly played the penny stakes, but back then this villain line would have been a snap call vs. a pennystakes rando with a big stack. Huge chance he'll turn out to be a drunken aggrodonk. I don't know how those games play today. This is where I'd sit on it too, I never ever believe a flop donkbet at 1c/2c
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Feb 6, 2021 22:03
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PIZZA.BAT posted:dunno where else to put this so i'm putting it here Jedi Knight Luigi posted:Dunno where else to put this so in putting it here feel free to make a new post about these things if you're interesting in discussing them, otherwise lets keep this thread clear for actual poker hands.
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Feb 7, 2021 11:30
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Strong Sauce posted:feel free to make a new post about these things if you're interesting in discussing them, otherwise lets keep this thread clear for actual poker hands. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3958296 I did this
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Feb 7, 2021 13:56
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Eric the Mauve posted:Calling turn makes no sense if you're going to fold river in this spot IMO. After donkbetting flop and overbetting turn you can't expect he's going to shut down on the river. There are probably players this is true against and I mean a lot of adjustments are justifiable vs certain people and tendencies but I just want to caution that in general the thought process of "if you call turn you have to call river" is pretty faulty and a dangerous thing to adhere to too often. You generally want to have a sort of even fold % on most streets (although usually overfolding a bit on flop to sort of "clean up" your range because you have a weaker range going into the flop and can therefore overfold a bit), so like you need some hands that call turn and fold river, otherwise your opponents can easily bluff you by just betting turn and then never bluffing river, knowing that if you called turn you are going to call river. Definitely be on the lookout for anyone who thinks in that way because then you can play perfectly against them by doing that, just getting more folds than you probably should on turn and being able to just never bluff river and print money when you have it. I'm not sure what I'd do in this actual hand to be honest, like you guys said it really depends on the villain and it could go from an easy fold to just slamming it in there as fast as you can. Donk bets can be kinda tough to deal with with no reads because people can vary pretty wildly on what range they do it with.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:06
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What is a "donk bet"
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Feb 7, 2021 22:19
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ilmucche posted:What is a "donk bet" Whenever you lead out instead of checking to the person who put in the last aggressive action on the last round, so in this case when the hero opens preflop and someone calls from the BB and then leads out, that's called either leading or donking The name comes from like it used to be that only bad players would do it for the most part although there are spots where you should lead, but they're usually on like the turn or river. I suppose there could be some good leading spots on flop too but they would involve multiway pots usually I think.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:47
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ilmucche posted:What is a "donk bet" Leading out on the flop without initiative. i.e. you're out of position but just called preflop, and instead of checking to the preflop raiser on the flop you bet. So called because it is more popular among bad players than good players. Stefan: Sure, but I stand by my evaluation that in this particular spot, after he overbets turn you either believe him or don't, in this hand against this 2NL rando the river will change nothing. There's such a thing as following the book too closely and you don't exactly see a lot of leveling wars at 2NL. e: in the old days I definitely had a donkbetting range, it would tilt the hell out of a good number of the bog standard 2p2 type regulars in the online midstakes games.
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Feb 7, 2021 22:48
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Eric the Mauve posted:Leading out on the flop without initiative. i.e. you're out of position but just called preflop, and instead of checking to the preflop raiser on the flop you bet. Yeah I mean that makes sense, I just wanted to caution people against taking the "if you call turn you have to call river" thing as a general rule cause it is something that I do see out there in the wild fairly often
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Feb 7, 2021 22:50
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Stefan Prodan posted:I suppose there could be some good leading spots on flop too but they would involve multiway pots usually I think. I think there are some good spots to lead from the blinds in tournaments with shallow stacks vs people that cbet a narrower range than usual.
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Feb 8, 2021 04:52
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rouliroul posted:I think there are some good spots to lead from the blinds in tournaments with shallow stacks vs people that cbet a narrower range than usual. yeah that's possible too, generally any place where you think the IP player will for some reason bet way less often than normal basically is where you'd consider leading
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Feb 8, 2021 06:03
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Stefan Prodan posted:Whenever you lead out instead of checking to the person who put in the last aggressive action on the last round, so in this case when the hero opens preflop and someone calls from the BB and then leads out, that's called either leading or donking So raising despite not being the last person to raise in the previous round? Why is that considered bad on the flop? Because with three cards it's harder to tell if the flop was to your advantage?
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Feb 8, 2021 13:18
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ilmucche posted:So raising despite not being the last person to raise in the previous round? Why is that considered bad on the flop? Because with three cards it's harder to tell if the flop was to your advantage? Most pre-flop aggressors are going to continue on the flop and you can probably get more out of them by check-raising or flatting and punishing later streets if you've hit the flop well than by leading immediately. Also yeah at low stakes it's so often just aggressive bluffing to push non-pocket hands off easy to push players that haven't hit enough of the flop to continue
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Feb 8, 2021 14:08
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ilmucche posted:So raising despite not being the last person to raise in the previous round? Why is that considered bad on the flop? Because with three cards it's harder to tell if the flop was to your advantage? It's very rare that someone who called a bet in a previous round is suddenly a large EV favorite on the next card. It does happen, but it's rare enough that I would advice beginners to never donkbet.
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Feb 8, 2021 16:08
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Donking is definitely more of a metagame play. The situations in which it's the technically correct play are very rare. Needless to say there is not much metagame in online penny stakes so it is nigh-invariably just a bad player making a bad play in in those games. edit: it's probably worth mentioning that being out of position and without initiative in raised pots is a bad situation to begin with, and you really should only find yourself there with like pocket pairs or high suited connectors from the blinds, where at small stakes you can play ABC fit or fold. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 16:50
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Against weaker, more straightforward players, donk raising on very specific flops can have some merit but it's hard to balance. Example - 2, 2, 4 rainbow is a great flop for the BB against a raiser from any position because the BB caller has far more 2s and straight draws, and generally (depending on how your calling range is constructed) equities are closer to even, mitigating the pre-flop aggressor's range advantage. A flop like this allows the BB caller to bet for value and as a bluff on multiple streets, knowing that the majority of the preflop raiser's range is mostly overcards and some overpairs (which may already be behind). Donking can be useful in this situation because on this flop texture, the preflop aggressor is strongly incentivized to check back and hope the turn is better for their range. By donking, we deny equity when we have 4s, build the pot when we have a duce, and balance it with semi-bluffs can can improve with low-card turns, or turn into additional bluffs depending on suited combos. HOWEVER: In almost all situations besides the example above (or even a similar flop texture against more aggressive opponents), it's far better to have a check call/check raise based strategy instead of a donk strategy. Check raising with your strong hands and draws that lack showdown value can build the pot far more when your opponent does call and punish aggressive c-betters. Check/calling with your more middling hands (pairs of all stripes and some of your higher equity draws) strengthens your checking range - which is critical against more astute opponents and allows you to effectively bluff catch depending on the board run out. Edit - Generally, my donk strategy is 2 fold: Against a single weak opponent, I'll donk bet as a no-equity bluff on a board similar to the one above because I don't think the player will float with high-card hands, usually with a large followup bet on the turn if they call flop and the turn is dry. Multi-way when I have a strong hand (the duce with a decent kicker in the 2-2-4 example) or a high equity draw. I'll lead small with the intention of calling off a re-raise or 3-betting depending on the table action. That said, don't get carried away. marxismftw fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 20:46
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marxismftw posted:Against weaker, more straightforward players, donk raising on very specific flops can have some merit but it's hard to balance. This is not always true. If the raise is a tight range 3bb raise for example then BB can't profitably call any 2x hands except maybe A2s. Only vs a minraise can you actually continue a bunch of K2s-T2s stuff.
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Feb 12, 2021 22:41
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Finnish Flasher posted:This is not always true. If the raise is a tight range 3bb raise for example then BB can't profitably call any 2x hands except maybe A2s. Only vs a minraise can you actually continue a bunch of K2s-T2s stuff. Of course it's not always true - the preflop raiser's position and raise size has a dramatic effect on what hands you can profitably call with, as does the BB's 3-bet strategy. Generally though, even against a 3x raise the BB only has to realize ~30% equity and a calling range of ~72% of hands (3-betting A2s-A5s, TT+, AQs+) still achieves 35% equity against a 15% open range. Calling with a range that includes any 2 cards achieves ~33.5% equity. Even assuming a tight 10% opening range (77+, A9s+, A5s, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo), a2c minus our 3-bet range still achieves 31% equity, so the idea that you can't extremely wide call profitably is kind of a misnomer. Obviously, there are substantial equity realization problems with the bottom of the BB range depending on the the character of the flop, but a player that always called a 3x open with every hand besides a 72o wouldn't be making a mistake - It's fine to call wide when you close the action with a strong range that includes both good (but not great) hands, and weaker hands and then play appropriately post-flop. A BB calling with a2c on the 2-2-4 board for instance has 86 trips, 9 boats, and 1 quad, all of which are going to be the absolute nuts ~96% of the time. Compare to the raiser's 48 overpairs, all of which require 1 of 2 outs to improve to a hand that can beat any of the BBs value hands. Additionally, the BB has 565 backdoor straight draws and 180 backdoor flush draws, and 56 gutshots; while the raiser has 33 backdoor flush draws, 62 backdoor straight draws, and 4 gutshots (A-5s). Looking beyond the raw equities (still about 65/35 in favor of the raiser), it is this strong hand advantage that gives the BB a huge edge if they play aggressively.
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Feb 12, 2021 23:56
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I think I'm starting to understand the lingo, but what's a gutshot? Equity is your % chance to win the hand?marxismftw posted:Generally though, even against a 3x raise the BB only has to realize ~30% equity and a calling range of ~72% of hands (3-betting A2s-A5s, TT+, AQs+) still achieves 35% equity against a 15% open range. Or what's the difference between equity and range?
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Feb 13, 2021 00:40
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ilmucche posted:I think I'm starting to understand the lingo, but what's a gutshot? Equity is your % chance to win the hand? A gutshot is a single card draw to a straight. Like if you have T9 and the board is JKx. The Q is the gut shot. Equity is basically your chance to win yeah. Range is just a group of cards you think somebody can be holding given a situation. A dumb simple example is preflop goes, raise, reraise, and someone else 5 bets all in. The 5 betters range is most likely KK-AA, I guess maybe AK suited sometimes. It’s just a way to figure out how many hands somebody might have given their actions.
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Feb 13, 2021 01:26
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marxismftw posted:Of course it's not always true - the preflop raiser's position and raise size has a dramatic effect on what hands you can profitably call with, as does the BB's 3-bet strategy. Generally though, even against a 3x raise the BB only has to realize ~30% equity and a calling range of ~72% of hands (3-betting A2s-A5s, TT+, AQs+) still achieves 35% equity against a 15% open range. Calling with a range that includes any 2 cards achieves ~33.5% equity. Even assuming a tight 10% opening range (77+, A9s+, A5s, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo), a2c minus our 3-bet range still achieves 31% equity, so the idea that you can't extremely wide call profitably is kind of a misnomer. You are incorrect.  Here is a screenshot of a preflop simulation, BB defend against a 20% 3x raise in a high rake low stakes game.  Here is a another sim, this time against a 50% 3x raise. As you can see the BB is folding all kinds of hands that technically are getting odds to call IF they realized 100% of their equity, but they don't, so they fold. You mentioned calling ~70% of hands vs a 15% 3x raise.  This is against a 16% 3x.
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Feb 13, 2021 10:04
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drat, pio preflop solves? You runnin a fuckin super computer over there or did you just buy these already done (I have been told it takes forever to do preflop I've never actually tried tbh since charts are so easy to get)
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Feb 13, 2021 10:28
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More data is always good, but you've changed the parameters - "high rake" has a HUGE effect on hands that you can profitably call with because it dramatically reduces the value of all of your raise/call hands, encouraging a much more aggressive 3-bet or fold strategy. I don't know if you're actually running the solves or not, but I'd love to see what pio says when there's no rake. The whole point of this, boils down to who has pocket 44s, any 2, and any straight draws. A UTG preflop raiser on the 2-2-4 board never has 44 or 22, and only 4 combos of A2s, and their suited connectors bottom out at 98s. Even if the BB is playing very tight, they are the only player who can have any strong hands or good draws on the 2-2-4 board, which is why it's one of 5 good donk boards (the others being 2-2-3r, 2-2-5r, 3-3-4r, 3-3-5r). marxismftw fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 19:10
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Stefan Prodan posted:drat, pio preflop solves? You runnin a fuckin super computer over there or did you just buy these already done Usually if I want a preflop sim I do the tree before going to bed and its very accurate by the time I wake up in the morning. I prefer doing them myself because you can get specific spots that you need. What I mean is, hypothethically let's say I raise 45% on the button to 3x. I can do preflop sims myself on how to respond if BB is using 9bb/10bb/11bb/12bb 3bet sizings. I can also see what the EV differences are if I am not allowed to 4bet jam 100bbs vs if I am. If you just buy charts and you get BTN RFI and BTN RFI VS BB 3BET, you don't know these things. marxismftw posted:More data is always good, but you've changed the parameters - "high rake" has a HUGE effect on hands that you can profitably call with because it dramatically reduces the value of all of your raise/call hands, encouraging a much more aggressive 3-bet or fold strategy. I don't know if you're actually running the solves or not, but I'd love to see what pio says when there's no rake. Rake has an effect but not as high as you seem to think. If you take a look at the sims I posted, you can see there's a bunch of hands that are folding 100%. Even if there was no rake, the majority of those hands would still be folding close to 100%. Only the fringe hands would see drastic changes. For example in the first sim you can see KJo mixing all options, mostly 3betting and doing a little bit of folding. In a no rake sim, it wouldn't fold anymore, and we would be sometimes 3betting and calling the next best hand, KTo, which is now just folding. All the rest, K9o-K2o, would still fold 100%. Rake does effect frequencies, but sizing and the % of the opening range affects more. Dead money also has a huge impact, if there is an ante in the game the BB will be calling a lot more. What you are saying is more applicable in NLHE MTTs with antes, where it's not really a thing to fold BB to a minraise vs one opponent. In non-ante cash games though, it's very different.
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Feb 13, 2021 21:27
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Finnish Flasher posted:Usually if I want a preflop sim I do the tree before going to bed and its very accurate by the time I wake up in the morning. I prefer doing them myself because you can get specific spots that you need. Yeah that's true, I play in softer games I guess on ignition but I've never felt like it was actually worth the $1000 or whatever pio with preflop is, especially since other people don't play anywhere near GTO and you can adjust in a lot of ways based on how you expect them to play postflop
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Feb 13, 2021 23:23
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That's true. I do have to say that one of the nicest things about the preflop pio is that you can force one player to play "bad" strategies, opening too wide or too little bvb for example, and seeing what the max explo adjustments are. It was really eye-opening to see how much BB should be 3betting if SB is folding just 5% more than a gto solution would with some of the 0ev hands.
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Feb 14, 2021 10:26
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Some context: I'm very new to online poker but I've studied and read around and played microstakes. I felt like playing my first microstakes tournament, a $2.10 buy-in Bounty turbo on GGPoker, and was doing fine until the following spot- MTT, near the bubble, 6Max, I'm on the button with Ad10d HJ, 20BB: opens with 2BB Folds to me Hero, 40BB: raise to 6BB All fold to HJ who calls Flop: 10h10s9d HJ checks, hero checks My read: hadn't played much against this guy but given his position, I feel like my set has him beat. I don't see him with paired nines against a 3-bet, rather an overpair or connected broadway cards. I checked to see the turn, where I planned to attack if a low card came. Turn: 7c I'm losing to pocket pair sevens and nines, or to a J8. I don't believe he has this given his opening raise and call - I try to play tight and I don't know if I'd play pocket nines his way in this spot , and the sevens and J8 are well outside the range I think he's playing. He checks, I raise, he reraises, I go all-in, he calls. Questions: should I have bet on the flop? How aggressively should I have bet? Of course he has J8 and I shake my head ruefully. In the end it didn't matter. I recovered to finish tenth.
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Feb 14, 2021 10:57
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Regarding preflop, I think you want to have hands that 3bet a smaller size and hands that just go all-in. If it's nearing the bubble and villain has an averagish stack, 20bb seems averagish but it's a turbo so who knows, then you can apply a lot of pressure by making a 4.8bb 3bet for example, you don't necessarily need to make it 6bb. You also just want to be jamming a bunch of hands against his raise like 99-66. SB and BB have an effect as well, the shorter they are the more I jam those sorts of hands. If they also have 40bb I am probably not jamming anything. As for the flop, I want to first point out that the term for your hand is trips, not a set. They both mean three of a kind, but a set is when you have a pocket pair and hit three of a kind, whereas trips is what you have. It is an important distinction. Anyway, you should definitely be betting the flop small. TT9 no flushdraw favors your range quite a bit, you have all the overpairs, he should never have them, you both have a T somewhat evenly so that shouldn't really matter. Pot is ~14bb if there's an ante (in MTTs there usually are) and you have 14bb to play with. I would probably simplify my strategy and cbet 2bb with everything I have and go from there. If I wanted to check some good hands I'd rather check AA than AT, but honestly I would just bet everything. I feel your assumption that your opponent has more overpairs rather than 99 is not true. He should be going allin with most pairs in the first place so realistically I would except to see a lot of suited connectory hands, like KJs QJs T9s etc. Turn is whatever, once he x/r you can obviously just go all-in or call and call any river if you except him to have more bluffs. Finnish Flasher fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 13:00
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Thanks for the advice. So I misplayed in lots of ways, all of which are learnable. Perhaps he would have folded on the flop, but (after the fact) I feel like with the straight draw he'd be calling a small bet and then I'd have got myself into the same situation on the turn.
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Feb 14, 2021 13:15
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Don't get too hung up on the fact you lost the hand, you had A Very Good Hand but your opponent had A Very Good Hand + 1
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Feb 14, 2021 13:50
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I'm not upset at all! I was expecting to get knocked out early and I nearly made the final table. Could I have played that spot better? Yes. Could I have played other spots better? Of course. I feel like I learned a lot over the 4 hours I played last night, and getting in the money was a bonus. I know I don't know enough.
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Feb 14, 2021 14:06
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| # ? May 8, 2024 06:50 |
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Finnish Flasher posted:You are incorrect. these are amazing. which version of PIO is this? basic or pro? i think finnish flasher already went over the hand pretty well but i just want to mention that you want to bet most of the time here because if you check you allow them to fully realize their equity for free. if you had made a bet on the flop that made it unprofitable to draw to the 8 outs he has and he calls, that's his decision. if he hits his hand.. there's not much you can do, that's poker. you have a very strong hand here but its not unbeatable, so making any bet is better than just letting your opponent see a card for free. if you do make these kind of trap plays (and let's be honest here, you were never going to 'not attack' the turn and go broke regardless) by checking and giving free cards, you also will have to accept that sometimes the play will backfire and you will get drawn out on.
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Feb 14, 2021 22:30
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