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I have piosolver edge, I think it's the only one that does preflop but I'm not 100% sure about that.
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Feb 15, 2021 08:18
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Strong Sauce posted:
Fair points. I suppose one key lesson to take is to avoid giving opponents free opportunities to make their hands when you think you are ahead.
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Feb 15, 2021 10:32
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Robert Deadford posted:Fair points. I suppose one key lesson to take is to avoid giving opponents free opportunities to make their hands when you think you are ahead. There are times when you want to give your opponent a free card when you are ahead, I think. I'd say it's when you are going to beat them but you want them to make a small hand so that they'll actually call raises. For example if you have paired the board and also the nut flush draw and you put your opponent on the same flush draw, you may want to let them get to the flush or turn a pairing card or something, rather than give them a bet to fold to on the flop? But it's not easy to put your opponent on specific hands like that. The general idea of not being passive when your opponent has lots of ways to outdraw you is good.
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Feb 16, 2021 19:42
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Didn't see a tourney game critique thread, so I hope it's okay to post here. Recently played $125 buy-in local tournament with 100 entries. Haven't stepped foot in a casino in probably 3 years and was nervous and probably way way too nitty. All tables are 7 handed. 3rd-level Blinds are 200/400. UTG (6,000): Folds Lojack/Villan (21,000): Raises to 1,200. Hijack/Hero (13,500): JcJd | Re-raises to 3,000 Cutoff (18,500): Folds Button (13,000): Folds Small Blind (22,000): Folds BB (11,000): Folds Lojack calls. Flop - AsQd8c Villian checks. Hero makes it 3k. Villian raises to put Hero all in. Hero folds. I feel like my pre-flop re-raise here is probably correct, but barely. Villian's opening raise range from early position so far had been fairly TAG. But my bet on the flop after he checks the flop is absolutely horrendous, right? --- 5th-level Blinds are 400/800. New table, have only played about 6 hands so don't have any real reads here. UTG (23,000): Calls. Lojack (20,000): Folds Hijack (A lot--I think 65k ish?): Calls. Cutoff/Hero (7,700): 9s9c. Calls. Button (18,000): Calls. SB/Villian (40kish): Calls. BB (17k-ish): Calls Flop - 9h5c6d SB Checks. BB bets 1k. UTG Calls. HJ Folds. Hero goes all-in for remaining 6,900 (nice). Button folds. SB calls. BB folds. SB shows 7s8s for the straight. Hero does not improve and busts ~58th. Is the call on the flop here instead of a raise too nitty? With two calls in front of me, this seems like an okay hand to overlimp to try to set mine. It seems like it's either overlimp or shove. Assuming my shove on the flop is probably correct? java fucked around with this message at 00:14 on Feb 21, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 23:07
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Cbet with JJ is way too big. Fold when raised is good. 99 is much better to go allin pre instead of call.
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Feb 21, 2021 01:34
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What Finnish Flasher said. To expand on it, you can cbet a smaller size in position on a AQ8 rainbow board. Your situation wont change much no matter the turn and river. The reason to cbet as the 3 bettor is to avoid turning your hand face up as "not an Ace" to anyone who can hand read. Live I'd go under 2k betting a yellow chip and a bunch of smaller ones to make your bet look bigger. With 2 limpers and less than 10bb, just shove 99 and pick up the free chips. You don't want to see a multiway flop with 99 and a shallow stack . Shoving preflop is actually less of a gamble there.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:06
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Appreciate the feedback from you both.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:11
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java posted:Didn't see a tourney game critique thread, so I hope it's okay to post here. Recently played $125 buy-in local tournament with 100 entries. Haven't stepped foot in a casino in probably 3 years and was nervous and probably way way too nitty. All tables are 7 handed. For the first hand 3-betting is best IMO. You’re only 34 BBs deep so if you get 4-bet you can get it in comfortably at these stack depths. Calling would also invite others to call and JJ isn’t a hand you want to go multi-way with. That being said I’d 3-bet a little bit larger: closer to 4000 to at least have some fold equity. Him folding here isn’t a bad outcome since you’d go from 13.5k to 15.3k without even needing to play postflop. As played I think betting this big is a mistake on the flop. You’re never getting folds from better hands and you’re rarely getting calls from worse. Maybe 8x or random straight draws call you but your hand blocks a lot of the straight draws that could call: KJ, JT, and J9 are all less likely since you are holding two of the jacks. You could opt to bet very small and fold to a raise, or better yet just check. Maybe this will induce him to bluff and make you fold but you can have AA, QQ, and AQ and play it slow too. Villain can’t just blast off here. I disagree that checking turns your hand face up since I’d also check my monsters here. For the second hand you just have to go all in preflop. You have two limps plus the blinds that you stand to win if no one calls a shove. 99 stands to be the best hand here most of the time and you only have 9 BB so you really just need to go for it.
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Feb 21, 2021 02:37
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I’m not a huge tournament player but under 10BB in general I’m getting my chips in pre or else I’m folding. Your 9s probably would’ve taken it down pre or at least you’d be against people that probably wouldn’t have flopped that straight
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Feb 21, 2021 22:10
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Tetramin posted:I’m not a huge tournament player but under 10BB in general I’m getting my chips in pre or else I’m folding. Your 9s probably would’ve taken it down pre or at least you’d be against people that probably wouldn’t have flopped that straight Yeah. I had gone all-in two of the previous six or so hands and totally should have done here. I definitely want to play another live tourney again, but really need to drill my pre-flop range charts better and figure out post-flop play and bet sizing a bit more.
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Feb 22, 2021 07:30
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Yeah the 9s have to go in. You have to exploit that fold equity for all it's worth. Once we're up to 15-25bb there's merits to a min-raise open strategy mixed with shoves but I'm too out of practice to really remember the mechanics of it and when in doubt make your decisions easy and shove. You are going to be doing the right thing putting other people to the test more often than not
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Feb 23, 2021 20:11
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More hand critiques are better than less so here's one from last night. (Yes, I know mistakes were made) .25/.50, Mandatory $1.00 straddle; table is relatively tight with a high % of 3bets; 9 handed Villain is directly to my left and has been a more active 3-better, raising ~20% of my opens; I've responded by opening tighter and 4-betting more aggressively. Hero: K9c in the straddle, (stack is ~$400) UTG villain opens 3x bb (stack is ~$300) Folds to SB who flats Hero flats on the straddle Flop: Qh Tc Qd SB: Check Hero: Check Villain: Raises $4.50 (~1/2 pot) SB: Fold Hero: Raise to $14.00 (~pot) Villain: Call Turn: 3c Pot Size: 37.5 Hero: Raise $25 (2/3 pot) Villain: Raise to $68.00 (~110% pot) Hero: Call River: 4d Pot Size: $173.5 Hero: Raise $100 (~60% pot) Villain: Call Villain shows KQo for trip queens. Thoughts: Initially, I liked my line with the exception of the river. My value bets here are AQ and TT, and I can't imagine a weaker hand that I'd get to the river with to bluff in order to balance my range; but if I'm betting AQ or TT I really want to overbet jam and put all of his queens in a really tough spot. During the hand, I thought the 60% river bet might drive some folds by hands like AA, KK, JJ, and 99, all of which could conceivably be in his range. So I ran this hand a bunch of times through GTO+: It really liked my line up until I called his raise on the turn. TT is just too likely given the aggressive line and my combo draw is drawing too thin against a range containing a few boats. He's only rarely raising with a Q and never with a pocket pair. His river range is just too strong to justify calling. Almost as bad is that I have blockers to all of the draws I want him to be bluffing with (AK, KJs, J9s). marxismftw fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 04:23
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marxismftw posted:
Why did you call his turn raise? Edit: posted before seeing your spoilers
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Feb 24, 2021 04:31
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Preflop is fine, though I think 3-betting is fine sometimes too? I'd lean toward a call more than normal just because the original raise came from UTG. If it came from a later position this seems like a good hand to squeeze from the straddle. Flop I think is actually a good raise, but I'd go bigger. Closer to $20.00. You're out of position and playing really deep and there's no reason you can't have a ton of value hands here. Turn I think is a good spot to polarize your range and bet big, 1.5x pot or something, and do it with your entire range. Does GTO+ suggest bet sizes at all? I'd be interested in what it says in terms of bet sizing on this turn. But I'm folding to the turn raise for many of the reasons you stated: his range is pretty nutted and even against his bluffs how do you win this hand? You also have pretty bad reverse implied odds even if you do hit on the river: he could have AQcc, AJcc, QQ, QJ, QT, TT. As played the river is spew. I disagree with your assessment of his river range that you are trying to get folds from: AA, KK, JJ, and 99 would rarely if ever raise you on the turn after you raise the flop and bet on the turn. These hands are almost always calling or folding turn, and some (like 99) probably just fold on the flop. So what bluffs does he really have on the river? AJcc? KJs? J9s? Maybe a few combos of these, but he also has every AQ, KQ, QJs, QTs, sometimes QJo, TT, QQ that are just never folding. His range is just so nutted, which again is why calling the turn is going to lose so much money. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 05:13
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edit: wrong thread
Victory Lap fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 06:37
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Wanted to post this one that I had pre-pandemic but forgot about until now. Villain is a good winning regular player. Doesn't really get out of line preflop, but understands how opening ranges change based on position at the table. He also knows that I am an aggressive player, but I think (though am not sure) that he thinks that I won't play back at him much because there are fish at the table that are easier to beat. Stacks are ~$1500 effective. $2/$5 NLHE. Folds to Villain on the button, who raises to $20. I'm in the SB with A  Q and raise to $80. Villain calls.Flop ($160): K  96I bet $105. Villain calls. Turn ($370): J I bet $250. Villain calls. River ($870): 3 I shove for ~$1065 total. -------------------------------------- Preflop I think is pretty standard. I go 4x because he's a good player, we're deep, and I'm out of position. Flop bet I think is better for my range than his. I can have every set, every good Kx, every draw, AA, QQ, TT, etc. He can have 66 and 99, but he can't really have AK much, and probably can't have JJ, QQ, or AA. He can also have a lot of draws. Also I have a lot of good to decent turn cards: A, Q, J, T all give me a pair or a straight draw. Turn I think I like, but I'd like input on this. A jack helps my equity some but he's never folding a K or better, and likely isn't folding hands like pairs+straight draws (QJ, JT, T9). My intention on this turn was to bet and then shove any river that wasn't an A, Q, J, or maybe a 9. The reason is that despite a J helping his range unless he has J9 or KJ my range is still quite a bit stronger than his. I still have AA, KK, JJ, 99, AK, KJ, QTs that would bet flop and turn. He may be able to remove hands like AJ, KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, and JT from my range with me betting turn but I still have a lot of strong hands here. River is a brick but it doesn't really change my plan. Again, I'd like thoughts here. I thought shoving was best because I think he has a ton of marginal made hands here that would have a tough time calling a shove. KQ, KTs, QJ, JTs, T9s, would all be in really lovely spots and while they'd be in lovely spots if I just bet like 2/3 pot or whatever, I really wanted to maximize fold equity on this river. I also have overbet shoved on the river against him before, though I've only done it with the nuts and he's never called so he didn't know that I had the nuts. I do block some of his combos of QT which is good, I guess, but I also block QJ which I kind of want him to have. I also don't block any missed flush draws, though I'm not sure how relevant that is here.
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Mar 10, 2021 06:15
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Mind_Taker posted:Wanted to post this one that I had pre-pandemic but forgot about until now. Seems fine on every street to me, you're gonna have a hard time finding river bluffs if you don't jam this, since you really won't want to jam whiffed flush draws, and this one is extra good that you unblock his whiffed flush draws like QJhh and Axhh kind of stuff
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Mar 10, 2021 06:24
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Mind_Taker posted:Wanted to post this one that I had pre-pandemic but forgot about until now. I'm not in love with this. Feels like we're repping an extremely strong hand, but extremely strong hands are pretty tough to have. Are we going for the overbet value shove with AA, AK, KQ type of hands? If not our value range is like [QTs, KK, 99, JJ, 66 KJs] (18 combos) (maybe QTo KJo K9s IDK what sort of things you're 3betting, or he thinks you're 3betting), all certainly make sense. But if he thinks you're 3betting him somewhat wide you're also going to have a LOT of hands that missed that may like to 3barrel on this board. IDK about actual proper play, but it feels like most 1/2 2/5 live players I've played against are going to have trouble letting go of a KT type hand here given action, at least if they think you're capable of bluffing. That said obviously you need to be bluffing here sometimes too, and the reasons Stefan gave for using this hand as one of your bluffs definitely check out. Victory Lap fucked around with this message at 18:25 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 18:16
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Victory Lap posted:I'm not in love with this. Feels like we're repping an extremely strong hand, but extremely strong hands are pretty tough to have. Are we going for the overbet value shove with AA, AK, KQ type of hands? If not our value range is like [QTs, KK, 99, JJ, 66 KJs] (18 combos) (maybe QTo KJo K9s IDK what sort of things you're 3betting, or he thinks you're 3betting), all certainly make sense. But if he thinks you're 3betting him somewhat wide you're also going to have a LOT of hands that missed that may like to 3barrel on this board. IDK about actual proper play, but it feels like most 1/2 2/5 live players I've played against are going to have trouble letting go of a KT type hand here given action, at least if they think you're capable of bluffing. No. Honestly I think I'm checking river with a lot of those hands, especially KQ. I might check/call AA/AK without a heart because he'd have more bluffs, and I might bet AA/AK with the A because he wouldn't block my flush draw bluffs and might call lighter, but I'd welcome input on this.
Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 20:05
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Definitely do not bet with the Ah here on river, you really do not want to block the A high flush draw as it represents a bunch of hands that will call twice then fold river edit: i misread his post at first and thought he was talking about bluffing with the Ah whoops Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Mar 12, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 20:54
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Mind_Taker posted:No. Honestly I think I'm checking river with a lot of those hands, especially KQ. I might check/call AA/AK without a heart because he'd have more bluffs, and I might bet AA/AK with the A It feels like the kind of spot your opponent can talk himself into a light call. Like you said in your analysis your opponent's range is pretty capped here - it's hard for him to have two pair by the river, and very hard for him to have better. Despite how weak his range should be, he's sitting there facing a river shove for 120% pot. Is this how he expects you to get value with a set? It's definitely a line you could take with your bluffs, but you may size down to try and get some value with your stronger hands, and like you said you'd be check/calling a lot of your one pair range. It just doesn't feel great trying to get opponent off a king here at all, since that's pretty near the top of his range. Betting to get him off jacks, A9hh A3hh T9 etc can definitely still make some sense, but I think you get the job done for 400 just as well as you do for 1100. Victory Lap fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 21:01
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Victory Lap posted:I'm not in love with this. Feels like we're repping an extremely strong hand, but extremely strong hands are pretty tough to have. Are we going for the overbet value shove with AA, AK, KQ type of hands? If not our value range is like [QTs, KK, 99, JJ, 66 KJs] (18 combos) (maybe QTo KJo K9s IDK what sort of things you're 3betting, or he thinks you're 3betting), all certainly make sense. But if he thinks you're 3betting him somewhat wide you're also going to have a LOT of hands that missed that may like to 3barrel on this board. IDK about actual proper play, but it feels like most 1/2 2/5 live players I've played against are going to have trouble letting go of a KT type hand here given action, at least if they think you're capable of bluffing. Man, I don't play live but that seems crazy to me to think people are regularly calling a 3bet then calling down 300 bb with top pair decent kicker with a straight blocker on a two broadway board. If that's really the case then yeah you can't bluff literally anything but you could go ham with as low as AK for value. I mean so suppose we are going with 18 combos of value, and the ones you said sound about right to me, since we overbet slightly we need like 8 bluffs or something, I think starting with the AQ that don't have a heart is probably the best place and that's 9 combos so I mean I think if you did only those combos it would be fine, but yeah if you are playing vs someone stationy and you think they are regularly going to call down with stuff they shouldn't then you don't actually need to bluff at all but you do need to make sure you go for thinner value.
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Mar 10, 2021 21:02
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Stefan Prodan posted:Definitely do not bet with the Ah here on river, you really do not want to block the A high flush draw as it represents a bunch of hands that will call twice then fold river Good point. What would you do with like AK/AA without a heart then? He'd have more missed A high flush draws by the river and I'd want to give him a chance to bluff right? So would you check pretty much every AA/AK? Would you check/call without the A and check/decide (check/fold?) with the A?Stefan Prodan posted:Man, I don't play live but that seems crazy to me to think people are regularly calling a 3bet then calling down 300 bb with top pair decent kicker with a straight blocker on a two broadway board. This guy isn't stationy at all. As I said I think he's a very good player, and I've seen him call down light before, but I don't think he just clicks call because he has top pair or whatever.
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Mar 10, 2021 21:57
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Mind_Taker posted:Good point. What would you do with like AK/AA without a heart then? He'd have more missed A high flush draws by the river and I'd want to give him a chance to bluff right? So would you check pretty much every AA/AK? Would you check/call without the A Sorry I just woke up when I replied and was already primed to think about bluffing from replying earlier so I misread, I don't think Ah interacts super strong either way as far as value betting because it doesn't really change the proportion of the time you are ahead or behind when you are called which is all you care about at that point, let me think about it a sec. Edit: Ok I thought about it for a couple minutes, I don't think when we bet it really matters whether we have the Ah or not for the reason I said, like when you bet on river you only care about the % of the time you are ahead when you are called but you do raise a valid point of like is the Ah better to have to trap or not. I actually don't know offhand because I would think there's two factors in play: - If he has the Ah he has more busted hands, and some busted hands will want to bluff, making him bluff more often when you don't have the Ah but also - If he has the Ah then for the same reason I said don't bluff with the Ah, he shouldn't either because Axhh is a hand that WE should be giving up on river and he doesn't want to prevent us from having those, so he'd rather bluff things like lower hearts or even maybe something like T9 if he has a hard time finding bluffs since so many hands have a pair and might feel like they want to check back. So this would push him towards the opposite, bluffing less often when we don't have the Ah. GTO wise I'm not really sure but I think overall the force of the second factor would be stronger and he'd be less likely to bluff when we don't have the Ah, but honestly big 3bet pots with a lot of broadways return some (to me) surprising results sometimes so I have a hard time predicting, I could try to run it later and see if I can find something reasonable, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm wrong about some of these guesses. Exploitively, it's easy to imagine someone who gets to river here with a busted A high flush draw and bluffs it anyway because they just go well I can't win and don't really think about anything beyond that. Vs a person like that you'd much rather check the AA or AK with Ah. How you would know this about them ahead of time though I don't know without seeing this specific sort of thing, like them following through on river with a busted high flush draw and getting caught. I don't know if you could really extrapolate this from another read apart from just knowing they seem to bet when checked to too often. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 22:23
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Okay I ran it in the solver and the solver just rips river with every AK+ that it ends up on river with, but it's hard to read too much into that because it actually does a ton of checking on the turn, like 70% of its range. It mostly bets things like AA, QT, some flush draws, and some AQ on turn, only betting AK like 1/4 of the time. The only hand it's checking river with to call is KQ, but again, it seems like the GTO turn strategy is pretty far from what I might actually do given my beliefs about people calling turn to fold river too much and I still like your line based on like real people's tendencies that I know, one of which being to fold river too often by a fairly large % (like 4-5%) in 3bet pots in position. Whether they would in this specific spot I don't know but it just means that if we err on the side of bluffing too often in spots we aren't sure about it's probably better. FWIW also when we do bet all 3 the IP player is supposed to call all his KTs and occasionally some A9s but actually fold like half his KQ, I'm assuming because we do bluff so many AQ that he doesn't want to block them. Anyway this sort of addresses the issue that Victory Lap brought up which is that if we only have 18 value combos how do we not end up having to just give up a ton on river, if we don't want to over bluff, and the answer is basically we just shouldn't barrel so often on turn. But again I think as an exploitive adjustment it's probably okay to without a read, just know that you are being unbalanced and that it could be really suicidal if you are playing vs a station. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 22:37
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Stefan Prodan posted:Okay I ran it in the solver and the solver just rips river with every AK+ that it ends up on river with, but it's hard to read too much into that because it actually does a ton of checking on the turn, like 70% of its range. It mostly bets things like AA, QT, some flush draws, and some AQ on turn, only betting AK like 1/4 of the time. Thanks for the analysis, I'm just getting back into semi-serious poker after a lengthy time off and I like that you can get a real solution to compare against these days. I really do think you're going to end up getting called here too often by Kx (and sometimes worse) in live games by otherwise competent players just because of the dynamic of the hand. Can't just let people walk all over their button raise, can they? Victory Lap fucked around with this message at 23:32 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 23:29
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Victory Lap posted:Thanks for the analysis, I'm just getting back into semi-serious poker after a lengthy time off and I like that you can get a real solution to compare against these days. I really do think you're going to end up getting called here too often by Kx (and sometimes worse) in live games by otherwise competent players just because of the dynamic of the hand. Can't just let people walk all over their button raise, can they? Yeah I mean I don't play live so I'm not sure, but even if he calls every KTs and every KQ it's going to still be close, he only has 3 KTs total so what he does with those isn't super influential (although it could certainly matter given how narrow both ranges are), the solver actually has him calling almost all of them and half of the KQ and still folding enough when you think of all the missed flush draws and pair+gutshots he had to call on turn that have to fold now. The solver also slowplays 99 on flop/turn a lot as the button and flats QTs on turn 25% of the time and never raises QThh on flop so those are all things I think players are likely to do that makes them wind up at river with fewer nutted trap hands to call with than the solver has, meaning they will fold more often.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:42
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I can probably count on my hand the number of times I've seen someone at 1/2-2/5 be disciplined enough to shove nut hands here to balance how often they bluff. almost always you see people get greedy and try to value bet their good hands instead. Most people are trying to make as much money in a small of a time as possible. And they don't like it when they have top set, shove their chips, and not get a call. That's my non-solver take on it. Also if Hero is only suppose to have 8-9 bluff combos, and AQo is being used.. what are we doing with, say, 78 or T8hh? that's another 17 combos right? Villain has to be thinking its more likely Hero has 78 than he does AQ? Not saying I'm right, just in my experience you'll get looked up light either because people think you're bluffing too often with a B/B/B line or because they can't fold a K. If you got Villain to fold I would be surprised if he folded a hand like KQ/KT
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Mar 11, 2021 01:18
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Strong Sauce posted:I can probably count on my hand the number of times I've seen someone at 1/2-2/5 be disciplined enough to shove nut hands here to balance how often they bluff. almost always you see people get greedy and try to value bet their good hands instead. Most people are trying to make as much money in a small of a time as possible. And they don't like it when they have top set, shove their chips, and not get a call. That's my non-solver take on it. I don’t know that I’d overbet shove against everyone if I had the nuts. I’d play exploitatively against most players, either betting bigger against stations or smaller against more passive/scared players if I had the nuts. But against a good player I would think it’s not a bad idea to try to play balanced, especially since I think he thinks I’m a good player too. As I mentioned before I have overbet shoved before into him with the nuts, though he never called and saw I had the nuts. I don’t think his mindset is going to be “oh this bet size is really big it looks bluffy” but I guess I could be wrong.
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Mar 11, 2021 06:12
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Mind_Taker posted:I don’t know that I’d overbet shove against everyone if I had the nuts. I’d play exploitatively against most players, either betting bigger against stations or smaller against more passive/scared players if I had the nuts. i kinda messed up when i was editing and took out that i meant when a regular player takes a B/B/B shove line. rereading some of the posts, i think victory lap already said what i was trying to explain. sure if its a very solid player i will probably give them some credit short of any reads, but generally you don't see that line often. and most people at this level are not going to be able to stop themselves from value betting the river rather than shoving since they're worried about not getting a call. Strong Sauce fucked around with this message at 08:17 on Mar 11, 2021 |
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Mar 11, 2021 08:11
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Shoving is value betting bro. For the hand in question, KK is better to trap on river than AA since you block worse from calling and dont block any bluffs. Its pretty difficult to get called by worse when you have KK.
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Mar 11, 2021 13:07
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Yeah FF is right just so the terminology is clear, any hand you are betting hoping to get called is a value bet no matter what size you make it
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Mar 11, 2021 19:11
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Stefan Prodan posted:Yeah FF is right just so the terminology is clear, any hand you are betting hoping to get called is a value bet no matter what size you make it Interesting. I assumed it was sizing based. I'll amend it. to something like, "..sizing a value bet that will get more calls."
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Mar 11, 2021 23:01
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— — — — — A tournament hand. Early on. I've already played a few hands and lost about 20% of my stack. I've seen just enough to start getting an idea about some of the players, even if it's not enough to not be blown out of the water. — — — — — PokerStars, $0.98 + $0.12 - Hold'em No Limit - 20/40 (5 ante) - 9 players Replay this hand on Upswing Poker - https://upswingpoker.com/replayer/124VxWlqd Chester72rus (UTG): 2,523 (63 bb) Barvaux (UTG+1): 3,143 (79 bb) geovane115 (MP): 2,603 (65 bb) Mrendatious (MP+1): 2,426 (61 bb) Emelya808 (LP): 4,132 (103 bb) adio1984 (CO): 4,011 (100 bb) Kre0ll (BU): 3,131 (78 bb) AlvesdeSousa (SB): 2,157 (54 bb) mikhakortua (BB): 3,101 (78 bb) Pre-Flop: (105) Hero (Mrendatious) is MP+1 with J♦ Q♦ 1 fold, Barvaux (UTG+1) raises to 80, geovane115 (MP) calls 80, Mrendatious (MP+1) calls 80, 1 fold, adio1984 (CO) calls 80, 2 players fold, mikhakortua (BB) calls 40 — — — — — Pre-Flop there's enough action before me, plus my position with people to act after that I'm not confident enough to 3-Bet. I'm not that confident with 3-Betting anyway, but I have gotten better at it, especially in tournaments when I have an OK enough stack to play a bit. Here, along with all that, I don't want to make it a big pot when my stack is already dwindling. — — — — — Flop: (465) 4♦ Q♣ 8♦ (5 players) mikhakortua (BB) checks, Barvaux (UTG+1) bets 80, geovane115 (MP) folds, Mrendatious (MP+1) raises to 160, adio1984 (CO) calls 160, mikhakortua (BB) calls 160, Barvaux (UTG+1) raises to 400, Mrendatious (MP+1) calls 240, adio1984 (CO) folds, mikhakortua (BB) calls 240 — — — — — Not certain about my min re-raise here, which is where I'd like some comment. I think a minimum raise from Barvaux is a bad call here. There's four other players, from his perspective, potentially looking to draw a flush. To me he's either got it wrong or is trying to keep us in the hand to milk us. Something I've been trying to do is use my stack to get a read on other players. I have top pair, and an OK kicker, plus a flush draw. I min re-raise, probably too small, I get adio calling, mikha calling, which at least tells me something. Barvaux's raise to 400 says to me he's beating me with either AA or KK. Maybe that's giving too much value to his action, and giving such respect has definitely had me fold out of hands with top pair, but so far my read is he plays fairly tight. Both me and mikha call. I definitely think mikha is after a flush here, but I feel with Q high in it I probably have him beaten. — — — — — Turn: (1,825) 3♠ (3 players) mikhakortua (BB) checks, Barvaux (UTG+1) bets 2,658... — — — — — Crunch moment. Barvaux puts me all in if I go with it. I definitely put him on AA or KK now. He's not someone to play this aggressively. I think mikha is chasing a flush, he's been passive the whole way, but I feel I have him beaten. I'm about 65/35 on whether he'll call Barvaux. My thinking is if he calls this hand is worth it for me. If he doesn't I'm probably getting the wrong odds to call. I'm favoring that he'll call. He's been passive the whole way and I think he will go with it. My thinking at the moment is I'm looking for a flush, but I can still win with another Queen, or a Jack, although I'm mostly thinking about the flush and Queen. What do I do? — — — — — (all-in), Mrendatious (MP+1) calls 1,941 (all-in), mikhakortua (BB) calls 2,616 (all-in) River: (8,998) J♣ (3 players, 3 all-in) Total pot: 8,998 Showdown: Barvaux (UTG+1) shows A♥ A♠ (a pair of Aces) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 69%, Flop: 50%, Turn: 62%, River: 0%) mikhakortua (BB) shows 5♦ 2♦ (high card, Queen) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 13%, Flop: 4%, Turn: 10%, River: 0%) Mrendatious (MP+1) shows J♦ Q♦ (two pair, Queens and Jacks) (Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 46%, Turn: 29%, River: 100%) Barvaux (UTG+1) wins 1,350 Mrendatious (MP+1) wins 7,648 And that's that. I know this is a bit of a trumpet in that I won, but I'm a beginner and definitely feel I played this hand badly for a good player, but about average, or a little above for me. My read on the players was correct, mostly. I didn't even think of mikha looking for a straight as well. I was lucky enough in hitting the Jack for two pair. Going over it again I think my raise on the flop isn't the best play, but Barvaux's reaction got me what I wanted, a read on his hand. For me the real value came from mikha. If it was just me and Barvaux I'd have folded at the all-in from Barvaux, but feeling mikha could call offered me the chance of tripling up a stack that was already down.
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Sep 13, 2021 18:04
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Mrenda posted:— — — — — Preflop seems fine. You can certainly re-raise preflop if you want, but you're deep enough where I think QJs is a fine flat in position against the preflop raiser. Flop you have to raise bigger with 5 players in the field. The preflop raiser only bets 80 into 465 which essentially acts like a check with 3 players left to act since no one should really be folding to this sizing. Even like bottom pair should call here given those odds. If you were checked to in this spot, would you bet? If so how much? After he bets 80 there is 545 in the pot, so I'm making it at least 500 to go. The problem with raising to only 160 is the other players to act only need to call 160 into a 705 chip pot (after your raise), and the preflop raiser would only need to call 80 into a 705 chip pot. And if there are other calls in between subsequent players just keep getting better odds to call. At worst they're getting like 4.4 to 1 on a call, so pretty much any pair can call here. If you make it 500 then players would need about 2:1 on a call, and Barvaux would need a little less than 2.5:1. Further, while this is a good hand there are still a lot of bad cards for you, especially if the pot is multiway. Only like a jack or a queen really make you happy (and even a jack might not be great since T9 might be calling on the flop due to ridiculous odds that have been set). Turn diamonds aren't even great because you could be up a K or A high flush draw multiway. Basically, you want to thin the field as much as possible because while QJdd here is great against one opponent's range, it is significantly worse against several players because you have a better chance of being coolered. By raising bigger you can either commit stacks against someone who is on a flush draw (which you are doing great against) or you can commit it against someone with an overpair or AQ (which you are only a slight underdog against, but with the dead money and fold equity it's likely profitable to get it in against). However, a disaster scenario is when you are up against, say, the nut flush draw and an overpair. Just as an example if one player has QQ+ you are 46% against that range, if one player has all nut flush draws, KTdd, and a few other flush draws (say T9dd and 56dd, 67dd) you are 65% against that range. So individually you are doing great against just one of these hands. However, if you are up against both ranges you are only 21% when you'd need like 30ish% to make a profit, given it'd be 3 way and there is some dead money. As played, I'm just shoving over his reraise on the flop. Again, you are letting other players into the pot when you really want to get it in against one player (or get everyone to fold). If you had AQdd you have a much better case for calling here because you can potentially cooler other players since you have the nut flush draw, but in this case you really just want to get it in against the main villain.
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Sep 13, 2021 21:59
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First: I am not an expert, just some jackass. So take my comments with heaps of salt. e. all this typed without seeing the post above me, interesting to see where we match and where we differ! 1. Pre-flop. Villain (Barvaux) minraised in early position. AA and KK are obviously in their range, but this is microstakes and I could also include AK, AQs, AJs, A10s, and some lower pocket pairs. Not sure how far down the suited aces, if this player is aggresive it could be as low as any suited ace. I don't like your call with five to act behind you, QJs after a raise and a call isn't that strong. I'm probably folding here frequently. Re-raise, though, to push out other late-position callers? You said you don't want a big pot, but with your call the pot is $290 so the next guy to call is getting 3.6 to one already (and probably better given that makes the call even easier for later actors) so you're likely to get a pot with at least $370 and maybe a lot more, with this call. Conversely, a significant re-raise (say, $200) reduces the pot odds of the players to your left and is more likely to result in a heads-up situation with a similar $400-$500 pot at the flop. 2. Flop: Barvaux's $80 continuation bet at this flop is low. I don't think it narrows his range much. You said you put him on AA or KK here, but I think his range still includes many drawing hands, like Ax of diamonds, Kx of diamonds, etc. and maybe even club or straight draws. Also can still include pocket pairs like JJ, 1010, etc. And I'm not sure if we can exclude made hands like trips, he could be value betting with a lot of hands that are made and drawing that beat your queens. I think your re-raise is good but I again question the sizing, 160 into a pot that is now 545 is offering very good odds to all the other flush drawers and I think it induces the re-raise by villain to 400. At that point I have to put him on AA, KK, trips, or drawing to the nut flush. Your call of 240 is still worth it given the pot odds but mikhakortua calling behind you is bad news because that's another potential ace or king high flush drawer still in the pot. IMO I'd much rather have isolated at this point in the hand to just a heads-up and maybe you'd have been able to do that if you'd raised something like two thirds the pot instead of that 160? 3. Turn: This card is a total blank. Villain choosing this spot to push makes sense to me. BB has just checked, that guy has been passive the whole hand and is obviously trying to draw to something, so I don't like your call here. You have a guy behind you, you've got nothing but queens, and you can't be sure a queen high flush will win. You're beaten by the AA and KK you're guessing he has, and the only diamonds you'd love to see on the river are the ace (especially) or king. You've got two queens and three jacks that could also win the pot if neither villain nor the presumptive caller behind you has trips. And you're covered, so this call is for your tournament life. The upside is that you'll double up (or maybe triple up, mikhakortua also has you covered) which would make you the chip leader, and so I don't hate this call, but I think if I'd gotten to this spot already I'd be pretty unhappy about continuing with just queens and a possibly-no-good two pair or flush river. OK just to reiterate I'm an idiot, so I'd like to hear the pros too and especially if they disagree with me! Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Sep 13, 2021 |
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Sep 13, 2021 22:26
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Thanks for that, it's given me some new ways to look at things. I think what's hard to take at this hand is that if I played it better I'd probably have folded before the river (purely based on how I think I would play it differently.) I don't think I'd shove flop, I think I could bet 400/500. I think everyone but Bavraux folds. I miss the flush on the Turn. Bavraux bets again. I fold. It's kind of hard to negotiate with the idea that the better play I could be capable of, that I could see myself implementing rather than "perfect" play, would have lost me a hand I more than tripled my stack on.
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Sep 13, 2021 22:58
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It's critical. What you want is long-term success, not a specific won hand. There's lots of bad play that will win you occasional hands while losing you more money in the long run. Like, congratulations on the pot! Nobody's mad that you tripled up, lol. But you'll do better in your poker results in the long run if you understand bet sizing and pot odds. That'll lead to fewer beats, bigger won pots, and longer runs in tournaments, over the course of tens or hundreds of thousands of hands.
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Sep 13, 2021 23:06
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Yeah. I know no-one's dunking, and the responses are really helpful. I'm just coming at it from the point that for me and a lot of other people too, I'm sure, learning to play poker involves playing poker. And if you're getting short term success with worse play it can be hard not to fall into long term traps. I've definitely seen people say, "Don't post your winning hands, you learn nothing from them," but I really don't think that's the case here with me. I did win, but even looking back at it I knew I got the flop raise wrong, I wasn't certain on my pre-flop play, and while my reads were correct, they were correct despite bad logic with me not considering what odds were being given to people staying in the hand. I was just lucky that the 400 raise on the flop took out the players I had no read on. I absolutely know this is a hand that if I repeat its process a few more times it could trap me into worse play long term. So these posts are great to counter the feel of tripling up. (And then going on to get in the top 100 of 2300 buy ins  toot)
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Sep 13, 2021 23:35
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| # ? May 8, 2024 19:39 |
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Will echo that your flop play here is by far the worst part of the hand, and you need to be sizing that raise much higher and potentially getting it in right there heads up with Barvaux. The min-raise is dreadful, it doesn't achieve any of the goals you'd have with a raise other than making Barvaux respond to it - no-one else in the pot is going anywhere, and your range becomes very polarised. As played, I agree the turn is a fold. It's really likely Mika is on a flush draw or TPTK by this point
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Sep 14, 2021 12:46
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