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Here's a hand a friend got into. Curious what the hive mind would do. 6max cash, 90bbs effective. Hero opens in UTG+1 with 9s 9d to 4bb Folds to villain in BTN who 3bets to 12bb Folds back to hero who calls. Flop: 7h 4h 2c. Pot: 25.5bbs Hero checks, villain bets 17bb, hero calls. Turn: [7h 4h 2c] Jh. Pot: 59.5bbs Hero checks, villain jams, about 60bbs. What would you do here? Is there a certain frequency you'd call here? Our big question is what realistically is the villain jamming with in this spot? Run out: Hero goes into the tank, and calls. Villain turns over Ah Kd, river is 8s and hero takes down the pot. I arrived at a similar conclusion that the hero did here, which was that the villain figured they were beat and wanted to take the pot there, but had a draw to the nuts in case of a call. At the same time, villain could have just had aces or kings and was representing a weaker hand. Its really some wine in front of me stuff
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Apr 10, 2022 15:57
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I'm not as good as a lot of the guys in here, but I think this is an easy call. 6 max, that flop favors the buttons range a lot more than UTG +1. Yeah, you have pairs here, but a lot of the time you also have a bunch of overs that whiffed. Villain might think they are ahead of a lot of what you are opening. This also depends on how tight or loose your friend is opening preflop. But with you checking the flop and turn, I am raising on the button with that board and feeling pretty confident I can get someone to fold most of the time.
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Apr 10, 2022 16:50
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That's a super standard line for a lot of players with ace-king and small effective stacks. That said it's a pretty marginal spot either way with nines unless you know Villain is loose enough to make this play with ace-queen/king-queen type hands. Against a more standard 3bet range you're always either racing ace-king or crushed by an overpair. But making too regular a habit of folding this spot is probably exploitable. Like, if you put him on ace-king or less pre (which obviously you do because why else would you call the 3bet out of position with stacks too small to make setmining worthwhile?) then the board changes nothing and you don't make the preflop call unless you intend to call him all the way down on this board. FWIW when I'm Villain in this spot I put Hero on a middle pair every time and absent specific reads wouldn't even c-bet this board with ace-king, I'd assume Hero has an overpair and will go to the felt with it. Maybe that's a leak I dunno. e: by the way, what are the stakes? It kinda matters how good or bad the average player is if we have no reads at all. If this is cheeseburger stakes you're gleefully taking those nines to the felt every time, but up at $1/$2 it's more nuanced. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 17:30 on Apr 10, 2022 |
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Apr 10, 2022 17:16
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Sataere posted:I'm not as good as a lot of the guys in here, but I think this is an easy call. 6 max, that flop favors the buttons range a lot more than UTG +1. Yeah, you have pairs here, but a lot of the time you also have a bunch of overs that whiffed. Villain might think they are ahead of a lot of what you are opening. This also depends on how tight or loose your friend is opening preflop. But with you checking the flop and turn, I am raising on the button with that board and feeling pretty confident I can get someone to fold most of the time. So independent of any player read or HUD data, this is a pure call for you? I'm starting to take my game more seriously and while I have yet sub to upswing or bbz or whatever, this kind of discussion is really helpful. I don't see this as a pure call but maybe I'm wrong? It's a pot sized bet, and I wonder if this wasn't a jam, if the stack sizes were bigger and this was just a pot bet instead of a jam, whether that would change things dramatically. I am Not Good at poker, FYI. Winning at micro stakes but have yet to get into the bigger leagues of 50 or 100NL.
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Apr 10, 2022 17:19
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I think Eric's question about stakes matters here. I play low limit stakes where I think this is a pretty standard call, but it really is dependent on how active the player is. I personally have a wider range of 3 betting on the button 6max, because people are a lot looser at lower levels. Really, the guys play style and stakes are pretty important in really determining the read. How many hands is he opening? How often is he 3betting from the button? How often does he cbet the flop? His hands played preflop and how aggressive he is with those hands make a big difference in how I play a hand.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:05
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It’s probably close and villain dependent. If they’re like a lot of live players and are only 3-betting TT+ and AK-AQ you are probably doing very poorly against that range. I’d feel better about having the 9h in my hand. You block made flushes in case he 3-bets wider, and you can draw to a flush if he does just have an overpair without a heart.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:08
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Thanks for the thoughts, friends. We're only just getting into our game seriously, I only started playing online about 3 months ago (but have played poker in silly home games for a long time). Stakes in this case were 5NL, so assume most of the players are just noobs, certainly not the elite. I'm just enjoying nerding out about stuff like this because I don't have the years of GTO / experience that others do. I haven't quite figured out the best way to study behind doing hand review, since it's difficult to justify the 99/mo for upswing or whatever.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:18
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sephiRoth IRA posted:Thanks for the thoughts, friends. We're only just getting into our game seriously, I only started playing online about 3 months ago (but have played poker in silly home games for a long time). Stakes in this case were 5NL, so assume most of the players are just noobs, certainly not the elite. I'm just enjoying nerding out about stuff like this because I don't have the years of GTO / experience that others do. I haven't quite figured out the best way to study behind doing hand review, since it's difficult to justify the 99/mo for upswing or whatever. I think at 5NL, I'm liking my 9s more in a vacuum. The biggest takeaway here is that you need to be paying attention to how villain is playing to really get a good answer. Take extensive notes on players when you see things they are doing that seem exploitable. Even simple notes like 3bet T7o from the button will give you a good idea for their range.
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Apr 10, 2022 18:47
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I'm sure this is a better discussion in another thread, but do you all use a study site like upswing? At what point in your play did you feel like it was useful for what it costs versus what your bankroll was? When did you start engaging with GTO? I know that I'm way too early in taking this seriously to begin using a solver or whatever, but it would be nice to supplement my own hand review with friends with a dedicated study format. Also do you all have a discord you hang out in or something? Or should I just start bombing this thread with my hands? Sataere posted:I think at 5NL, I'm liking my 9s more in a vacuum. The biggest takeaway here is that you need to be paying attention to how villain is playing to really get a good answer. Take extensive notes on players when you see things they are doing that seem exploitable. Even simple notes like 3bet T7o from the button will give you a good idea for their range. I've started to take notes with the regulars I encounter. At 5NL/10NL I'm already seeing people get too aggressive or overvalue aces and things like that. It's nice to try and find leaks in my own game.
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Apr 11, 2022 02:10
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You should bomb this thread with hands! Please. It's what it's for! Also it doesn't have to be a cash game.
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Apr 11, 2022 04:56
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Here's another situation me and my poker buddy were trying to deconstruct. Full ring, 1/3 live Hero in BB with T8o UTG+1 raises to 6 CO calls BTN calls SB folds Hero calls UTG folds Pot = 24 Flop is T 8 4 rainbow What is the correct move for hero here? After talking this through, we arrived at the idea that the safest play is to lead, with a ~70% pot bet OOP. The idea being that checking may resut in the UTG+1 betting, allowing Hero to raise, but there are cards that can come out on the turn that could make decisions on later streets difficult. Also possible that it checks around, and there were too many cards on the turn that we didn't like. For example, let's say the turn is a J or a 9, something that could potentially connect with straight draws. Does Hero lead on that turn or continue to check/call as T8 has showdown value but may not be the nuts. Alternatively, let's say it's an A that is suited to one of the cards, opening up a potential flush draw - how does this affect bet sizing for Hero, assuming it's still a good idea to lead here? Would Hero need to bet 70% to get the flush draws off, or prevent potential counterfeit with another 4? Would going higher, something like pot or 125% of pot be more effective? As I mentioned, we think that leading on the flop would likely take the pot down, but given how complicated later streets look, maybe that's the best case scenario? Alternatively, do we not even defend with T8o? I think multiway Hero was priced in, but maybe not.
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Apr 17, 2022 05:17
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sephiRoth IRA posted:Here's another situation me and my poker buddy were trying to deconstruct. Preflop is fine. T8o is a junky hand but you’re getting crazy good odds so whatever. I’m never folding here. With UTG+1 being the preflop aggressor I’m checking flop with the intention of check raising. The reason for me wanting to check is that in the case that UTG+1 cbets, then it’s possible that the CO and/or BTN call behind him, allowing for your check-raise to possibly capture some more dead money. And in the case that UTG+1 checks, then the CO or BTN could lead which will allow you to still get in the check raise. Yeah it’s possible the flop checks through and yeah it’s possible that this happens and a bad turn card comes, but I still think c/r the flop is the right play because I don’t know that it checks through all that often. I’d be more inclined to lead flop if it were multi-way and the aggressor was last to act. The reason for this is because the natural thing is that it gets checked to the aggressor, and if he’s last to act and checks there’s no one else to potentially bet at that point.
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Apr 17, 2022 15:09
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First, this is a live game so you should have some reads on how the preflop raiser plays, especially since he's two to your left and thus usually has position on you. (The other two are irrelevant unless one of them is a drunk aggrodonk or something.) Also, stack sizes are super important! I assume it's ~100BB for all that follows but if you're shallow or super deep that changes things a lot. This hand does demonstrate why being out of position sucks so much, even if you get into the pot super cheap with your rags. You flop top two on a super dry board, very nearly the nuts, and you don't know what to do. Check-raising is best. If the preflop raiser has an overpair you'll make some money off him either way, if he has ace-queen or etc. he won't call your donkbet but he might c-bet if checked to. There are some situations, specific to reads on the aggressor in this hand, where I might like a donkbet into him (i.e. if he's likely to give you no credit and raise with nothing but overcards). But the default most profitable play is to check-raise. If you check-raise and he shoves (if stack sizes are big enough that your c-r isn't itself a shove) that's a call but pretty pukey, he has an overpair more often than a set but your two pair is prone to getting counterfeited by the board pairing elsewhere. I assume since you posted this hand that it got checked through and someone binked the turn, but tl;dr check-raise is right absent specific reads. There's also the issue that when you donkbet people who are thinking are likely to put you on pretty much exactly what you have, so if you're going to make that play with the near-nuts you also need to occasionally make it with air.
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Apr 17, 2022 17:13
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Thanks for the input! Does this change online, at lower or micro stakes?
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Apr 20, 2022 00:17
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sephiRoth IRA posted:Thanks for the input! Does this change online, at lower or micro stakes? I will very rarely bet on the flop if I didnt bet preflop. If someone has already lead, I will give them the opportunity to lead the flop unless I have a read that lets me think he won't. I'm check raising here for the reasons indicated below. Give draws terrible odds and build the pot for the hands that are behind me, but will still call. And like Eric said, donk betting the flop pretty much tells everyone you have a pretty strong hand.
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Apr 20, 2022 04:47
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Here's a hand where I think I screwed up. I'm not sure my post-flop moves were +EV. 6max 2NL - effective stack is 80bb Folds around to Hero in the CO with AKo Raises to 4bb, BTN calls, SB folds, BB calls Pot: 12.5bb, Flop: 9h Ac 3c SB leads 12.5bb. This is a weird lead to me. I have played effectively no hands with the villain, and I can't imagine anybody is going to lead that huge with a set or two pair. I figure they caught a piece (weaker Ace?) or maybe a club draw. I decide to raise, figuring with the SPR I'm likely getting in if there's no club on the turn. One aspect of my game that I think I have leak in is overvaluing top top in situations like this. Hero raises to 37.5, BTN folds, BB calls. The sizing on this is also a little hosed up I think. Assuming I'm correct about BB being on a draw, they have about 50% equity here, correct? My sizing makes it so they need to put in 25bb into a 87.5bb pot, or about 28%. I should have sized this up, correct? Would a jam be appropriate here? Pot: 87.5 Flop: 9h Ac 3c / Turn: 6h 6h doesn't really change things for me. I assume that BB will jam here with their 40bb behind and I plan on calling BB jams 40bb, I call. BB shows 9c 6c for two pair and a flush draw. River is the 3h, leaving me with a better two pair, and I take down the pot. In hindsight, I don't think I played this very well and got lucky. 96s isn't the most outlandish defend. I dunno, I thought i did okay but typing it out I'm second-guessing myself.
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Apr 22, 2022 01:21
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You've got to raise on the flop or else you're offering BTN a great price to tag along with a draw. At 2NL unknown idiots can be donkbetting with anything so you've got to feel good getting your short stack in on TPTK. Normally I would approve of the ol' click-it-back minraise to encourage him to shove over you with air or a beaten one pair, but with $1.60 stacks I don't think it matters much. Honestly this hand demonstrates how the cheeseburger stakes can teach you bad habits and if you want to become a better player you should move up to at least like 30NL or whatever as soon as you can afford to
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Apr 22, 2022 02:00
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I think you played it fine and I think your read was fine too. That raise feels like a flush draw trying to buy the pot. The only other real options for big hands are 99, 33, A9, or A3. I think from the BB, A9 or 99 3 bet PF a lot of the time here. Maybe A9 just calls, but at these limits I find it hard to believe 99 flat here. There are also a lot of options here that he has that you are ahead of. A lot of random Ax, some connectors like T9, 98, J9. Against his range, I like your chances of being ahead. But that bet sizing just screams I want to buy the pot now because I know im behind a lot here aka flush draw. The 3 bet was a good size. If he's on a flush draw and calls, he made a bad mistake because he was no longer getting the odds to connect. I'd say it was just bad luck that he hit two pair on the turn.
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Apr 22, 2022 02:41
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Eric the Mauve posted:You've got to raise on the flop or else you're offering BTN a great price to tag along with a draw. At 2NL unknown idiots can be donkbetting with anything so you've got to feel good getting your short stack in on TPTK. What bankroll do I need to start messing around at those stakes? I feel (over 2k hands or so that I've been taking it seriously) that I can handle/beat the smaller stakes, but 2k hands is nothing. That said, I'm at ~50bb/100 over the time I've been tracking. I have about 100 banked in pokerstars right now, and another 250 (that I grinded up from a $1 free bonus  ) on WSOP. WSOP doesn't let me use PT4 though, which is why I moved to stars. I'm worried if I try to move up variance will get me.
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Apr 22, 2022 02:57
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So two hands in the tournament I was just in that I am wondering about my decision making process. Hand One Blinds are 300/600/600 bb ante. I have 20k in chips UTG+1 makes it 1500. Everyone folds to my BB. I have A9s. Flop is AT6s (wrong color for me). I check to raiser. He goes all in for 10k more into a 3900 pot. No reads on the raiser as I've been at this table less than an orbit. Am I ever ahead here? Hand Deux Blinds are 400/800/800 Action folds to me in the cutoff. I have ATo and make it 2200 to go. SB calls with about 9k more chips left after making the call. Everyone else folds. Flop is JT6r. SB makes it 5k into a 6k pot. Only read I have on this guy is him shoving all in on a board of A63 with pocket 2s when he was short stacked. Not sure it tells me anything expect he can be aggressive out of position with marginal hands. But given that situation, it seems like a good spot when you're under 10bb This one I already know I'm behind most of his range and I'm folding this flop because he's basically pot committed at this point and I can find a better spot later. I'm more curious what can he have here that he's donk betting that flop when I'm the preflop raiser. I feel like Aces through Tens 3bet most of the time preflop, so to me this is either 6s, JT, or KQ and he's either trying to scare me off potential draws or maximize his value. Just curious if my thought process is wrong here.
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May 2, 2022 01:29
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Sataere posted:So two hands in the tournament I was just in that I am wondering about my decision making process. Could be a tilt shove with JJ-KK Sataere posted:
If he's good he knows his pf range is better than yours so he can lead a bunch on that flop. You have also seen him lead weaker made hands for value/protection. I wouldn't fold AT
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May 2, 2022 01:58
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rouliroul posted:Could be a tilt shove with JJ-KK Yeah that's the only other thing I can think of and no reason to think he's tilting here. quote:
I'm not sure your logic tracks here. He called from the small blind. I think his hand range is a lot tighter than it would be from the BB. He's out of position and has no real investment in the pot. JT and drawing connectors are much more likely to be in my range. More importantly, he bet 5k with a stack of 9k. He's pot committed. That screams trying to get value while also protecting against potential draws. I'm either pushing or folding here and I really don't see what bluffs he takes with that line for his tournament life.
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May 2, 2022 15:38
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Hand Deux Blinds are 400/800/800 Action folds to me in the cutoff. I have ATo and make it 2200 to go. SB calls with about 9k more chips left after making the call. Everyone else folds. Flop is JT6r. SB makes it 5k into a 6k pot. Only read I have on this guy is him shoving all in on a board of A63 with pocket 2s when he was short stacked. Not sure it tells me anything expect he can be aggressive out of position with marginal hands. But given that situation, it seems like a good spot when you're under 10bb This one I already know I'm behind most of his range and I'm folding this flop because he's basically pot committed at this point and I can find a better spot later. I'm more curious what can he have here that he's donk betting that flop when I'm the preflop raiser. I feel like Aces through Tens 3bet most of the time preflop, so to me this is either 6s, JT, or KQ and he's either trying to scare me off potential draws or maximize his value. Just curious if my thought process is wrong here. [/quote] I think most hands that beat you on flop are either folding or shoving preflop. If they are just calling off hands they should be shoving, this guy also got into a spot were they (open?) shove 2s in a spot were they are only getting called by better so i think their range is super wide here.
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May 5, 2022 18:23
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Couple things, might be worth mentioning or maybe not: since this is tournament play, are you at/near/past the bubble? And, how are you and villain stacked compared to the rest of the table? I think both of those things can affect ranges and aggression.
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May 5, 2022 18:34
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6max 5NL, effective stack is 88bbs I'm in the BB with 77. UTG+1 limps SB limps I raise to 4bbs UTG+1 raises to 14bbs, SB folds I call. I have a note on this player that they size their raises too big and typically call light (defending with J5o in the BB when heads up, for example) Pot is 29bbs Flop is T46 rainbow Villain bets 21bbs. I put him on AX, although possibly a lower pocket. Maybe he hit a set, but with that bet I doubt it. I figure this is a semi bluff with some overcards so I decide to jam. They call, turn over KK. I manage to hit a 7 on the river and win the pot. In retrospect, I'm not sure a jam there was a good idea. My intent was to polarize my range. I guess with the note that this person sizes all bets up too high etc I thought I was okay, but my play had a lot of risk attached. I'm beat by any T or higher pocket pair. The limp reraise PF was so weird, it's actually the first time I've seen it. Is it mostly going to be a strong hand when someone does that?
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May 9, 2022 18:24
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I occasionally see people, especially at micro stakes limp reraise with AA or KK. Pretty much every time I see somebody do that it’s with one of those two hands. Seems like a stupid rear end way to play those hands to me but maybe I’m wrong.
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May 9, 2022 20:48
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Preface: I'm a poker novice, I've read Harrington and watched a lot of poker but I lack experience, so take this with lots of salt: Limping pre-flop with KK seems really dumb because what is he gonna do if five players limp behind him and the flop has an ace (20% of flops)? He's also letting suited connectors, set miners, etc. all maybe get there on the flop. I can see it if villain has a read on a couple of players as always re-raising preflop so they know they'll have a good chance at the limp-reraise to get more in the pot pre-flop and still only face one or two others at flop, but I dunno man. Seems like bad play to me. I don't love a jam with sevens, my goal with low pocket pairs is to set mine, not to get it all in against a wide range on the flop with both overpairs and drawing hands beating me and only a seven or runner-runner to a straight improve me. I guess it counts as a semi-bluff but your read is this villain calls too light... Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 21:16 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 21:13
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Tetramin posted:I occasionally see people, especially at micro stakes limp reraise with AA or KK. Pretty much every time I see somebody do that it’s with one of those two hands. Seems like a stupid rear end way to play those hands to me but maybe I’m wrong. Yeah it was loving weird for sure. Definitely made a note on that player because that's a huge red flag if I ever see it again. ^^^ edit Jam was definitely a blunder, I think. In the future I wouldn't do that again. I was hoping to get a call from AK, but that sounds dumb now that I type it out. sephiRoth IRA fucked around with this message at 21:21 on May 9, 2022 |
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May 9, 2022 21:19
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Tetramin posted:I occasionally see people, especially at micro stakes limp reraise with AA or KK. Pretty much every time I see somebody do that it’s with one of those two hands. Seems like a stupid rear end way to play those hands to me but maybe I’m wrong. Limp reraise from early position is almost always a monster in my experience. At low levels, that and a guy who min raises when most of his raises are standard screams monster. Leperflesh posted:Preface: I'm a poker novice, I've read Harrington and watched a lot of poker but I lack experience, so take this with lots of salt: If you play every hand the exact same way, you are setting up a pattern for other people to recognize. Disguising your hand matters. Especially if you play with the same people regularly. It is important to remember that the guys you are playing online have a notepad feature too.
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May 9, 2022 23:28
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Yeah at low stakes a limp/reraise is almost always QQ+. It sucks but stacks are too shallow to set mine preflop so I think I just fold. You should also consider just checking preflop. I’m probably always checking 22-66. 77-88 is close. These are difficult hands to play out of position against what is either going to be a multi-way pot or a situation like you find yourself in against a reraise. You’re almost always going to flop something that isn’t an overpair or a set, and you’ll probably have to c/f a whole lot. And if someone is sandbagging you with QQ+ preflop and you do hit a set they will be unlikely to fold to your raise. If the flop is say J73r is a limped KK ever folding to your check-raise? You have plenty of opportunity to get stacks in with little risk.
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May 10, 2022 03:35
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I have a general question but it's a situation that has come up a bunch and I still don't have a good handle on my strategy. You're in the BB with 67s or something similar (97s, 78, T9 etc) CO opens at 3bbs. BTN flats, SB folds, you defend. Flop comes K72. CO cbets 50% pot. How often should you be continuing here with middle pair? Does that change with an open from UTG vs CO/BTN? What if the sizing is different? What if there are two overs on the board, and you have bottom pair instead (AT7 for example)? I feel like I overfold in these situations. What do you all do in spots like these?
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May 16, 2022 02:50
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sephiRoth IRA posted:I have a general question but it's a situation that has come up a bunch and I still don't have a good handle on my strategy. There’s no easy answer to this. It depends on reads, stack sizes, etc. It also depends on the exact board including suits, because in a lot of these cases with suited connectors you’re going to have back door equity when you flop a pair. Like having 6  7 on a Q5 7 flop is quite a bit different than having the same hand on an AQ 7 board. The former gives you a lot of options to make your hand or semi-bluff, while in the latter you really have little opportunity to do either.In addition you’ll want to 3-bet hands like these from the BB with a decent frequency, especially if you have a button caller as you have mentioned in your general example. But again this depends on reads. Honestly the best thing you can do is post specific hands to get feedback. Even if they seem like bog standard hands. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 03:37 on May 16, 2022 |
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May 16, 2022 03:31
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Mind_Taker posted:There’s no easy answer to this. It depends on reads, stack sizes, etc. It also depends on the exact board including suits, because in a lot of these cases with suited connectors you’re going to have back door equity when you flop a pair. Like having 6 Great points. I feel like I'm starting to nail down some of my preflop fundamentals, 3b ranges etc but finding these spots to exploit preflop and figuring what to do post are still down the road. I'll keep posting some hands. Thanks!
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May 16, 2022 04:47
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OK, here's a situation that I friend and I argued about and I think I might be wrong. 6-max 100bb stack effective, 10NL Hero has QQ in the BTN. UTG opens to 2.5bbs folds to Hero who raises to 8bbs BB cold calls UTG calls. Pot: 24.5bbs Flop: 5h As Ks BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks. Part 1: I think we both agree after the players to act check, we could take advantage of position and our range here and bet the flop. Does this make sense as a +EV play? Or are there too many A/K in our opponents range for this to be valuable in the long term? The checks make me feel like we could have taken it down... Pot: 24.5bbs Turn: Qh in the actual hand, it checked to me, I bet, everyone folded. Part 2: But here's the situation that my friend put to me. BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 16bbs If the BB or UTG jam over the top, do we call? I would argue that depending on the player we're up against and their playstyle, we could find some calls here. I don't think it's a pure call, but pure folding (or close to it) is a negative EV play over time. My friend argues that what would the villain be jamming with here if not JT? A non JT spade draw? A set of 5s? His argument was that there are no bluffs on a jam like that because my bet is telegraphing that I have a big, made hand. I argued that no JT is going to be in the hand after a 3bet and a cold-call -> if UTG had JTs, would they call? Maybe... what about JTo? I really don't think any "good" player is calling JTo in this hand, even out of the BB. My friend argues back, saying ok, maybe not JTo, but JT of spades is definitely a possibility and the jam itself is proof that I'm beat because what hands would be bluffing. Am I over valuing a set of Qs here? I block other combos like AQ or KQ, I block most of the spade combos that would continue as well, so it actually does make a bit of sense that I'm beat here, but I also feel like I'm talking in circles and folding a set when I don't need to be.
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May 19, 2022 04:59
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If JT turns a queen to complete a straight, wouldn't jamming be a bad move, because he wants you to actually call? He's got the nuts, and has another street to shove after he's tried to induce your bet or raised for value. I'd have thought betting for value would be the right move there. OK, there's still the flush draw on the board, so I guess that's what the shove would be afraid of, but what hands is he putting you on your pre-flop raise where he'd rather take the pot now than risk a river spade? There' can't be all that many that are also folding to the shove? Also, are the two of you discounting BB with AA KK AK combos? Does BB have to three bet these hands preflop? All that said, I think if I'm in your spot I'm never folding QQQ without a big read to the contrary on the jammer because I think their checks on the flop are wrong for a strong drawing hand that makes it with that queen and the shove is wrong for a made superior trips hand. I am bad at poker so all of the above may be stupid. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 05:18 on May 19, 2022 |
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May 19, 2022 05:16
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You raise some good points, but I don't think I put either on AA or KK. I think going into a multi way like that your opponents would be 4betting with a hand like that. Do people smooth call AA or KK out of the BB in that spot? I feel like over time that's a negative EV move but I, too, am bad at poker
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May 19, 2022 16:40
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i cannot imagine either two players ever check raise jamming for ~92BB here in any situation since it doesn't make much sense at all. so for that hypothetical scenario i would call and then i would stand right up and leave the table if they showed me a nut hand because there's no way they can't see your cards. to me, if they had a legitimate hand either made on the flop or turn, why are they checking twice. doubly so if its the UTG player making this move. also makes no sense to jam over your bet like that since there's a non-zero chance you're just stabbing at the pot after no one's taken an interest. this scenario is imaginary because it will never* happen. at least it won't happen enough where you have to talk about what you'd do.
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May 20, 2022 02:03
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Strong Sauce posted:i cannot imagine either two players ever check raise jamming for ~92BB here in any situation since it doesn't make much sense at all. so for that hypothetical scenario i would call and then i would stand right up and leave the table if they showed me a nut hand because there's no way they can't see your cards. If there's a wild player at the table in the hand that I know likes to make moves, I check more often. Rock up and let them throw money at you. You raise all in on the turn because you have a made hand and you're hoping they're on a draw and will call to chase. They'll fold river because they can't gamble any more. I'd bet river if it checked around to squeeze any value I could, probably a little over pot. Enough where I look serious but they could read it as stealing. Most of my experience is a little old and not extremely high stakes (2/3 and 5/5). But I wouldn't say situations like that never show up or can't make sense.
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May 20, 2022 04:55
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Just for the thinking exercise, since I haven't really played in a long time...sephiRoth IRA posted:My friend argues that what would the villain be jamming with here if not JT? A non JT spade draw? A set of 5s? His argument was that there are no bluffs on a jam like that because my bet is telegraphing that I have a big, made hand. 5's invariably bets this flop and bigly, because it's a disgusting one for 5's, right? So I think you're 95%+ sure that 5's aren't in the equation. In fact, if I have a set of 5's here I'm betting flop like 75% and likely c/evaluating turn and river, praying for the board to pair and never ever ever jamming unless I'm trying to offload cash I, for some reason, don't want anymore. sephiRoth IRA posted:I argued that no JT is going to be in the hand after a 3bet and a cold-call If there ever was a reason to play JTs, isn't this the spot? A multiway pot with UTG opening JTs 2.5x then calling 5.5x and getting 3.25:1 with a very solid/playable hand seems ideal, other than being 2nd to act as opposed to last. sephiRoth IRA posted:My friend argues back, saying ok, maybe not JTo, but JT of spades is definitely a possibility and the jam itself is proof that I'm beat because what hands would be bluffing. Why would we ever be check jamming JTs here, though? Even if it's JcTc or JdTd, you'd be happy to call and hope for a non-nut river. You'll look like you're chasing a draw or flush and on any non-suited card other than a broadway completing card, you're likely to pull another bet from a hand like exactly yours. You have what is likely the nut flush on a spade river (how many suited Qs hands get there? Not many, at all, and I missed if you have the Qs because that eliminates his range significantly) or on a heart river some suited AXs hands might get there, but that's literally the worst case scenario. Check jamming with JT here just seems horrible to me on every level. sephiRoth IRA posted:Am I over valuing a set of Qs here? I block other combos like AQ or KQ, I block most of the spade combos that would continue as well, so it actually does make a bit of sense that I'm beat here, but I also feel like I'm talking in circles and folding a set when I don't need to be We're eliminating essentially everything that beats us and we're ending up with precisely a draw, so you should be fist pump snap calling almost every time, I'd say. I can't see any other sets letting a connected nasty board get through, and I can't see them not re-raising AA or KK pre, and 5's are basically drawing dead. JTs is the only hand but again, why on earth would anyone c/j there? I mean, they *could* I guess, but we've still got a possible river to boat up which is a risk I'd be willing to take to offset folding the best hand.
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Jun 1, 2022 19:22
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sephiRoth IRA posted:I have a general question but it's a situation that has come up a bunch and I still don't have a good handle on my strategy. If it's 3way and they're cbetting halfpot that's honestly kinda big and polarizing, AFAIK the solvers like to use smaller betsizes multiway. That being said I would always continue with a backdoor flush draw, fold without, and definitely take a note if it goes to showdown and you see what they are cbetting that big with. You can also x/raise these hands if the CO is cbetting too much. But try to look at your side card when deciding what to raise. For example raising something like T9 on AJ9 is pretty dangerous since the times you hit a T your opponent can improve into a straight. But a hand like 76 on AJ7 is a pretty good candidate to raise. You clearly have a very strong hand whenever you turn a 7 or a 6 and can try to bet turn and river for value.
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Jun 2, 2022 15:48
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