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In a tournament, every minute he tanks, other tables have people busting and your prize money goes up. I'd let him tank as long as he wanted lol. That said I always wondered why there wasn't an automatic clock in tournament formats because someone tanking forever is basically cheating. e. although now I think about it, if you're a short stack, you're letting other stacks in the tournament get bigger while you sit there, levels go up, you can wind up kinda screwed by having no action for however long. So it's not all one-way beneficial? I think five minutes is a reasonable line, if it's for all of someone's chips in a big money tournament maybe a little longer but if someone can't decide what to do in five minutes they need a push.
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Oct 20, 2022 19:27
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Wherever the line is, you sailed past it - 10 minutes is an absolute age
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Oct 21, 2022 00:03
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if you're a more skilled player and you're trying to win the higher end of the prize pool you want to play as many hands as you can regardless of stack size. when you're short it does you no good as you're going to end up paying off the blinds and antes. if you're a larger stack you want more hands to get more chances at scooping up chips from worse players. the only people who stall are those where cashing for a tiny amount is better than risking leaving with nothing and maybe chino rheem. personally, for me, anyone who has been playing relatively fast will get more leeway from me in terms of calling the clock. but there is a balance in that because i don't believe anyone should be allowed to take up more than 10 minutes of time for it. there are other people who have paid just as much as you have to be there. maybe it's just me, but what are people thinking about for more than 10 minutes? if you can't calculate your odds within ~5 minutes you probably won't have it within 10. remembering your previous actions with villain... well that doesn't tax your brain that hard either. past 5 minutes i'm betting most people are just more paralyzed by decision than anything else. but at that point you're wasting people's time. yes there are hard decisions in poker but you're not going to get any more insight if we let you think about it for 15 minutes. lastly if its an important decision i will also give more leeway but if they've been stalling frequently there's going to be a point where they have to knock it off since its also now costing you money. i actually have not played a tournament with a shot clock (play clock? poker clock?) but seems like it's been a net good overall.
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Oct 21, 2022 01:34
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Based on his river choice, gently caress that guy. If you tank that long and call the turn, you have to know that you are calling the river. Just bad.
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Oct 21, 2022 04:55
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I didn’t say he was good. He ended up busting 6th though and I was 44th so maybe I’m the one that played bad? The pay jumps were like $500-1000 per 9 people at that point and it was one of those large multi thousand tournaments. If it was 3 or 4 tables absolutely. Also if this were a multi table satellite I would be absolutely fine with it This was the tournament where I made a bad call down against Xaun Liu and down to like 1/5th starting stack in the first level then proceeded to get hit in the face with the deck. I got all in 4 times at 90+% equity when stacks went in too like set over set. AA vs AK. Drawing dead to a made flush. Just one of those days. Lote fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Oct 28, 2022 |
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Oct 28, 2022 19:34
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Oh man I was reminiscing about twitter and going through old tweets and I found a hand I accidentally hosed up live and it ended being like an angle: WSOP $1k Level is 100/200. I have AA in the blinds. Guy opens to 600 and gets a call or two. Without saying anything, I throw in 800 total accidentally meaning to throw in 1800, and I realize it immediately and don’t say anything because I don’t want to give away my hand. The original raiser calls the floor and says, ‘this guy in the blinds threw out 800 instead of 600, that’s a raise.’ Floor rules with him because technically yeah it should be a min raise so I’m forced to make it 800. Original raiser 4 bets and the callers fold. I fist pump 5 bet ship it when they fold back to me. Accidental angle shot. Oops.
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Nov 12, 2022 04:48
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In these big events even 5 minutes seems like a long time to act. I like the games where they give the players a few extra time buttons to use at their discretion though. I'm a floorperson and in most of our events I'm allowing a clock to be called after like 2-3 minutes. Also somewhat related, but we tried a shot clock tournament for one of our daily events, giving every player a 10 second timer and it resulted in every action taking up their time. It made the tournament somehow go longer than it normally would have since the players were aware of having their time.
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Nov 28, 2022 17:34
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TheJunkyardGod posted:In these big events even 5 minutes seems like a long time to act. I like the games where they give the players a few extra time buttons to use at their discretion though. Maybe everyone gets one of those chess clocks, it gets an hour total for the tourney, and it starts ticking when action is on you. You make your move and stop it. It clicks to the next guy. Eh, poker players are such dicks, the guy with 1 chip left would probably use up his entire remaining time bank before putting it in.
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Nov 28, 2022 23:08
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just do a promo where any time you have left on your clock when you're out is worth a dollar a second
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Dec 1, 2022 03:46
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I think I hosed this up. 6max 10nl, effective 100bbs I'm in UTG, posting a blind because I'm too impatient to wait for BB. My cards: 8c 5d It folds to SB, who flats. BB checks. Pot: 3bbs Flop: 8d 5h Qd SB bets 2.9bbs. BB calls. I raise to 8.7bbs SB calls. BB jams 29bbs. This is where I might have burned myself. I re-jam my remaining 91bbs over the top. SB snap calls, shows Qs 8s for a better two pair. BB shows a weak Q, which is what I expected. I guess my thinking was to isolate against a guy I know to be loose and prevent SB getting there with a draw. Did not put them on better two pair, honestly wouldn't have in a million years. I think I need to improve my post-flop play  I'm down 5 buyins over two weeks and a lot of it feels like I'm getting my money in mostly good and getting sucked out on, but I also know that's a mental trap. Worried my play is getting lazy and/or predictable.
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Mar 17, 2023 01:38
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sephiRoth IRA posted:I think I hosed this up. Without a read on the SB, I fold here. SB bet here on the flop, which means there is a good chance he has something since he's out of position. And I just don't know that he'll fold here and bottom two pair is just about behind anything he calls with.
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Mar 17, 2023 01:49
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Also there's two diamonds on the board so you're asking to get killed by a flush even if you think there's no way either of your opponents has two pair with a queen, or trips, and is already beating you, right? If you just bought in, your opponents may also see you as one of those people who shows up at a table and immediately pushes in their stack, just to try and wave their big balls around? I dunno how much of a thing that is in live poker.
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Mar 17, 2023 02:43
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Leperflesh posted:Also there's two diamonds on the board so you're asking to get killed by a flush even if you think there's no way either of your opponents has two pair with a queen, or trips, and is already beating you, right? This was online! Sorry, online 10nl so this was ten bucks. And I guess with the poo poo I see people move on for these cheeseburger stakes I put myself well above their range for a flop open, but then again I have been seriously doubting my game lately. I'm still way up over the last year, but lately I've been on a pretty gnarly downswing. I wonder if I've been making some bad ev plays and if I need to start using a trainer or something. I get into a lot of spots where I don't know whether to continue calling or cbetting. I've gotten rivered a fair number of hands and I'm feeling burned, so getting in my money with two pair so I could drive out some dumbass playing K5 hitting trips or better two pair on the turn/River felt like a good idea. This is just tilt mental game stuff, I suppose. I have pretty terrible expectation thoughts- i keep my ranges well in hand, get aggressive when i can, and then see people just jamming all in on middle pair win chips and it bums me out. I'm just feeling really bad at poker.
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Mar 17, 2023 02:54
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Well I am also really bad at poker perhaps, I have not even given it the test of trying to win money, but I also consume way too much poker media so I feel like I know something. 
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Mar 17, 2023 02:59
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sephiRoth IRA posted:This was online! Sorry, online 10nl so this was ten bucks. It sounds like your forcing a bit. You want people making bad plays like this, but you have to make sure you have the cards to punish them. You can't make donks stop being donks, so you have to be disciplined with your spots. I feel like I need a set or better to shove there. There will always be other spots to take their money.
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Mar 17, 2023 03:03
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Leperflesh posted:Well I am also really bad at poker perhaps, I have not even given it the test of trying to win money, but I also consume way too much poker media so I feel like I know something. I started playing on WSOP in 2022, around March. I was given one free dollar. I've turned that into about 800 over a year, but I haven't been taking it seriously- I don't study beyond doing hand review with a buddy. That's why I'm wondering how to take the next step, or maybe just blow my game up and start over from scratch.
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Mar 17, 2023 03:03
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sephiRoth IRA posted:This is just tilt mental game stuff, I suppose. I have pretty terrible expectation thoughts- i keep my ranges well in hand, get aggressive when i can, and then see people just jamming all in on middle pair win chips and it bums me out. well you did post utg because you couldnt wait literally one hand so i mean... dunno what you're expecting to happen
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Mar 17, 2023 04:13
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Thanks for the thoughts. Sorry I made the thread therapy. Wrong place for it.
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Mar 17, 2023 04:32
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sephiRoth IRA posted:Thanks for the thoughts. Sorry I made the thread therapy. Wrong place for it. It's ok. Posting early is perhaps the biggest crime you made, hah. Being patient is what it's all about. I think you're right that it's unlikely anyone has a set given no one raised pre, but you walked right into the better 2 pair thinking that it must be a weak top pair and a draw. The sb probably doesnt lead out there with a draw... I guess calling 2 after he led might make sense, but that initial bet...
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Mar 17, 2023 05:14
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Hand is played fine. Two pair is ahead of 99% of their ranges so you want to put as much money as possible in right now. They are in blinds so are going to have tons of draws and top pairs
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May 15, 2023 11:54
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Saved a couple of hands to ask for feedback on but when I looked at most of them I was just like "WTF was I thinking that was stupid". This one was the least embarrassing, from a microstakes online 6-max MTT (There were about 60 entries, 30 left at this point), although just 5 at the table during this round. HJ Villain 100BB CO 77BB BTN 24BB SB 30 BB BB Hero 20 BB Preflop HJ Calls 1BB (they only ever call preflop, didn't see them raise in 90 something hands) CO folds BTN folds SB folds BB Hero sees Ac10c raise to 3BB HJ calls total pot size now 7BB (there is a small ante) Flop is KsKc3c Hero bets 4.5BB Villain calls pot is now 16BB Turn is 6h, giving KsKc3c6h Hero checks Villian shoves Hero?
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Sep 7, 2023 14:40
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distortion park posted:Saved a couple of hands to ask for feedback on but when I looked at most of them I was just like "WTF was I thinking that was stupid". This one was the least embarrassing, from a microstakes online 6-max MTT (There were about 60 entries, 30 left at this point), although just 5 at the table during this round. Just fold. Only thing you are beating is a bluff and there is a chance you're already drawing dead if he limped 3s or 6s.
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Sep 7, 2023 15:56
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Honestly, I'm giving serious consideration to just shoving 20bb pre. We're absolutely fine adding 1/4 to our stack and we're not in the worst shape if they look us up. As played, just fold. They shouldn't be calling you on the flop with anything other than a king, a three, a pocket pair or a worse flush draw, and the last of those is the least likely.
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Sep 7, 2023 16:33
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mfcrocker posted:Honestly, I'm giving serious consideration to just shoving 20bb pre. We're absolutely fine adding 1/4 to our stack and we're not in the worst shape if they look us up. I think guy limping into your blind merits this response. I'd be fine with it. But you can't call off your stack on the turn with ace high. EDIT: Upon further consideration, you should only be shoving or folding preflop. You only have 6.5 orbits before you are blinded out.
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Sep 7, 2023 16:41
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mfcrocker posted:Honestly, I'm giving serious consideration to just shoving 20bb pre. We're absolutely fine adding 1/4 to our stack and we're not in the worst shape if they look us up. Re-reading my play this was my conclusion as well, I should have just shoved from the beginning. I did fold fortunately, didn't get to see their hand though
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Sep 7, 2023 16:55
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villain as reported can have any hand preflop because he never raises pre and also has the dominating stack at the table. I agree at 20BB you should be looking for spots to shove and being dealt A10 suited with five at the table is a shoving spot all day. But post-flop villain can bluff you with anything because any hand the short stack won't shove with is probably weak enough to fold and villain can simply take the stack from you. Which you let him, by getting to the turn with nothing but ace high and a draw. When I'm in villain's position I can just take the small stack's money over and over until they learn to shove their good hands pre, at which point I may still call with anything that will get me a coin flip because I can lose to the small stack and still have 80BB and cover the whole table, and this is a tournament where gobbling up the small stacks is the path to victory. e. also you're "in position" preflop so getting to be last to act gives you the best possible view to the shove here - you're heads up or taking the blinds, which is ideal.
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Sep 7, 2023 16:57
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Was going to post another hand but realise it's basically the same as the last one I posted, with the same mistake on my part. Here it is anyway, small stakes turbo SnG approx 25bb stack sizes (I think the range was about 20-30, can't remember who had what), 8 at that table UTG +1 raises to 2BB folds to SB SB calls 2BB Hero BB sees JTs, hero?
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Oct 26, 2023 10:17
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distortion park posted:Was going to post another hand but realise it's basically the same as the last one I posted, with the same mistake on my part. Raise to 6
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Oct 26, 2023 13:56
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leper khan posted:Raise to 6 This is too small. Normally we'd raise to something like 8.5-9BB and that's fine here as well, but with 25BB we could definitely just jam too. On top of that, we can absolutely just call as a defend, JTs flops fantastically
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Oct 27, 2023 03:47
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distortion park posted:Was going to post another hand but realise it's basically the same as the last one I posted, with the same mistake on my part. Hero calls. Jam hands like AJo or 88, not JTs
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Dec 23, 2023 16:23
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Finnish Flasher posted:Hero calls. Jam hands like AJo or 88, not JTs I decided to run this through GTO Wizard and assuming GTO villains (adjust as necessary) it’s a shove with JTs 100% of the time, as are AJo and 88. And realistically unless UTG+1 is a nit I’m going to assume any adjustment will be to shove more often because they’ll fold too often to the shove.
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Dec 23, 2023 17:41
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mfcrocker posted:I decided to run this through GTO Wizard and assuming GTO villains (adjust as necessary) it’s a shove with JTs 100% of the time, as are AJo and 88. So this is where I got my game a bit screwed up, way back when I was pushing toward unexploitable play on the super turbos. Opponents don't play GTO (well, maybe more do these days), they are gonna be donks or in the case of good players, play more exploitatively... So you end up getting called a lot lighter than you "should". Which was tilt-inducing, and while it didn't *lose* me a lot of money (because unexploitable, hah), it did seem to push my winrate down to almost breakeven. My suspicion is there a lot better places to get it in, rather than jamming here to pick up 4 bbs when there is a fairly decent chance you are gonna get called by lovely, but better hands. Of course JTs holds up ok even when you do get called, which still makes it a +EV play. I haven't used GTO wizard at all, but can you play with opponents call ranges? Where is the breakpoint?
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Dec 23, 2023 18:16
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Baddog posted:So this is where I got my game a bit screwed up, way back when I was pushing toward unexploitable play on the super turbos. You probably can but I'm not subscribed to it and haven't played around with it more than doing a basic solve. I'm surprised we get called too often rather than not often enough. I suspect it's still a good shove like you said, though it might be more of a shove/3b balance
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Dec 23, 2023 18:34
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mfcrocker posted:You probably can but I'm not subscribed to it and haven't played around with it more than doing a basic solve. Switch the positions around, I bet the gto call here against a gto push at this many bbs is tighter than you are thinking?
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Dec 23, 2023 18:53
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Baddog posted:Switch the positions around, I bet the gto call here against a gto push at this many bbs is tighter than you are thinking? Na it's pretty much what I was expecting (utg+1 should call with 77+ AJ+ ATs KJs+), in fact if anything I'd probably find it hard to call off with the bottom of that range.
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Dec 24, 2023 03:43
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does the solver know it's a tournament? From what I read that does matter, in that opponents are less likely to call a shove when they're out of the money in a tournament, or especially when you're right at or near the bubble.
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Dec 24, 2023 03:50
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Leperflesh posted:does the solver know it's a tournament? From what I read that does matter, in that opponents are less likely to call a shove when they're out of the money in a tournament, or especially when you're right at or near the bubble. Yeah, I put it as a tournament because that's what it was in the OP
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Dec 24, 2023 11:56
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Got the yearly itch to play, so went down to a ~150 person tourney. I'm pretty rusty, and probably played too nitty as a result, but had a weird spot I think I played wrong. Blinds are 400/800. About 80 people left at this point (I think.) Average stack is around 24,000. I'm sitting at around 21,500. Villain for the hand is in SB, with probably 38,500. Villain is good, and aggressive post-flop. I've only seen him 3-bet pre-flop once before, didn't get to show-down. Folds around to Hero, who is in MP1 with JJ. Hero raises to 2000. MP2 (a loose player) calls. Button (a bit of a nit) calls. Villain in SB re-raises to 8600. BB folds. Hero tank folds. (Everyone else folds). Is this fold fishy as hell? Thinking about it now, I think I should have jammed. java fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 02:04
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java posted:Got the yearly itch to play, so went down to a ~150 person tourney. I'm pretty rusty, and probably played too nitty as a result, but had a weird spot I think I played wrong. hero shoves. expect to be against most AK, or AA/KK/QQ villain has AK and nonsense way more than the three hands that kill you dead e: you could call and shove any non AKQ board, but i want my money in here to set me up for late in the torunament or let me out early leper khan fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Apr 22, 2024 |
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Apr 22, 2024 02:08
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leper khan posted:hero shoves. expect to be against most AK, or AA/KK/QQ Thanks for this analysis.
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Apr 22, 2024 02:40
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