[Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

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gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

PawParole posted:

we have a pre-napoleon and post-napoleon thread.

but where does napoleon go?

Napoleon has been #cancelled for a problematic age gap with his second wife

# ? Mar 27, 2021 13:22

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 08:01

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

PawParole posted:

we have a pre-napoleon and post-napoleon thread.

but where does napoleon go?

the other thread

not that anyone would be jumping down your throat either way

# ? Mar 27, 2021 15:49

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Flavius Aetass posted:

Proclamation (c. 1828�30) by Sir George Arthur to Aboriginal Tasmanians, claiming that they would receive equal treatment before the law.

The British colonial government made some attempts to make this a reality but in the end the native Tasmanians were almost entirely killed off by disease and "settler-involved shootings."

This works very differently if you read it right to left

# ? Mar 27, 2021 16:08

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

twoday posted:

This works very accurately if you read it right to left

# ? Mar 27, 2021 16:10

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Ardennes posted:

By September 1945, the Soviets had propeller aircraft that could intercept American bombers (mostly B-29s), but it does also show what the US was planning even very early on.

Yeah, pretty telling that literally one month after dropping the first atomic bombs the emerging doctrine is "yeah let's just use these to immediately and with no warning completely annihilate the populations of anyone that dares cross us, including the people who until yesterday were our biggest allies"

3 years from this:

to "better stock up on 466 nuclear bombs so that we can exterminate every Russian on the planet just in case"

# ? Mar 27, 2021 16:15

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Cerebral Bore posted:

just planning a genocidal bombing campaign for funsies, as you do

yes, this is an accurate description of modern professional militaries with people whose full-time job is literally just to plan for potential wars with other countries. militarism sucks like that

and there was absolutely no possible way the US was gonna beat the Red Army in any conflict, offensive or defensive, without going all-in on nukes

now, if the UK had nukes in 1945, that would have been real bad. basically as soon as Hitler shot himself, that paranoid maniac Churchill was demanding British war planners come up with a plan for a joint US/UK/German/Polish invasion of Soviet Europe to, and this is a direct quote, "impose upon Russia the will of the United States and British Empire". just to dispel any thoughts that it was a standard just-in-case plan to keep the war planners busy now that their role in the war was essentially over, he had the report titled "Russia, Threat to Western Civilization"

British war planners spent the entire report openly trying to convince that maniac that there was absolutely no way in hell anyone was winning a conventional land war against the Red Army in 1945

# ? Mar 27, 2021 17:08

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Thankfully for all involved, Churchill was no longer in office by the time WW2 actually ended.

# ? Mar 27, 2021 17:19

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

can any brits speak to the liveliness of the churchill cult of personality in england im curious if its as intense there as it is here or if people are just wtf no gently caress that guy the same way there tends to be a gap in terms of how thatcher is perceived

# ? Mar 27, 2021 17:25

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

looking forward to hearing from brits (wow, first time for everything) but i'd wager it's politicized exactly the same way everything else is

# ? Mar 27, 2021 17:28

vyelkin: Jan 2, 2011

Some Guy TT posted:

can any brits speak to the liveliness of the churchill cult of personality in england im curious if its as intense there as it is here or if people are just wtf no gently caress that guy the same way there tends to be a gap in terms of how thatcher is perceived

Not a Brit but it's just as much of a cult. There was a recent article on it by an academic talking about how intense the backlash is if you try and talk about Churchill's horrible racism and genocides.

quote:

Why can't Britain handle the truth about Winston Churchill?
Priyamvada Gopal

Nothing, it seems, can be allowed to tarnish the national myth � as I found when hosting a Cambridge debate about his murkier side

A baleful silence attends one of the most talked-about figures in British history. You may enthuse endlessly about Winston Churchill �single-handedly� defeating Hitler. But mention his views on race or his colonial policies, and you�ll be instantly drowned in ferocious and orchestrated vitriol.

In a sea of fawningly reverential Churchill biographies, hardly any books seriously examine his documented racism. Nothing, it seems, can be allowed to complicate, let alone tarnish, the national myth of a flawless hero: an idol who �saved our civilisation�, as Boris Johnson claims, or �humanity as a whole�, as David Cameron did. Make an uncomfortable observation about his views on white supremacy and the likes of Piers Morgan will ask: �Why do you live in this country?�

Not everyone is content to be told to be quiet because they would be �speaking German� if not for Churchill. Many people want to know more about the historical figures they are required to admire uncritically. The Black Lives Matter protests last June � during which the word �racist� was sprayed in red letters on Churchill�s statue in Parliament Square, were accompanied by demands for more education on race, empire and the figures whose statues dot our landscapes.

Yet providing a fuller picture is made difficult. Scholars who explore less illustrious sides of Churchill are treated dismissively. Take the example of Churchill College, Cambridge, where I am a teaching fellow. In response to calls for fuller information about its founder, the college set up a series of events on Churchill, Empire and Race. I recently chaired the second of these, a panel discussion on �The Racial Consequences of Mr Churchill�.

Even before it took place, the discussion was repeatedly denounced in the tabloids and on social media as �idiotic�, a �character assassination� aimed at �trashing� the great man. Outraged letters to the college said this was academic freedom gone too far, and that the event should be cancelled. The speakers and I, all scholars and people of colour, were subjected to vicious hate mail, racist slurs and threats. We were accused of treason and slander. One correspondent warned that my name was being forwarded to the commanding officer of an RAF base near my home.

The college is now under heavy pressure to stop doing these events. After the recent panel, the rightwing thinktank Policy Exchange, which is influential in government circles � and claims to champion free speech and controversial views on campus � published a �review� of the event. The foreword, written by Churchill�s grandson Nicholas Soames, stated that he hoped the review would �prevent such an intellectually dishonest event from being organised at Churchill College in the future � and, one might hope, elsewhere�.

It�s ironic. We�re told by government and media that �cancel culture� is an imposition of the academic left. Yet here it is in reality, the actual �cancel culture� that prevents a truthful engagement with British history. Churchill was an admired wartime leader who recognised the threat of Hitler in time and played a pivotal role in the allied victory. It should be possible to recognise this without glossing over his less benign side. The scholars at the Cambridge event � Madhusree Mukerjee, Onyeka Nubia and Kehinde Andrews � drew attention to Churchill�s dogged advocacy of British colonial rule; his contributing role in the disastrous 1943 Bengal famine, in which millions of people died unnecessarily; his interest in eugenics; and his views, deeply retrograde even for his time, on race.

Churchill is on record as praising �Aryan stock� and insisting it was right for �a stronger race, a higher-grade race� to take the place of indigenous peoples. He reportedly did not think �black people were as capable or as efficient as white people�. In 1911, Churchill banned interracial boxing matches so white fighters would not be seen losing to black ones. He insisted that Britain and the US shared �Anglo-Saxon superiority�. He described anticolonial campaigners as �savages armed with ideas�.

Even his contemporaries found his views on race shocking. In the context of Churchill�s hard line against providing famine relief to Bengal, the colonial secretary, Leo Amery, remarked: �On the subject of India, Winston is not quite sane � I didn�t see much difference between his outlook and Hitler�s.�

Just because Hitler was a racist does not mean Churchill could not have been one. Britain entered the war, after all, because it faced an existential threat � and not primarily because it disagreed with Nazi ideology. Noting affinities between colonial and Nazi race-thinking, African and Asian leaders queried Churchill�s double standards in firmly rejecting self-determination for colonial subjects who were also fighting Hitler.

It is worth recalling that the uncritical Churchill-worship that is so dominant today was not shared by many British people in 1945, when they voted him out of office before the war was even completely over. Many working-class communities in Britain, from Dundee to south Wales, felt strong animosity towards Churchill for his willingness to mobilise military force during industrial disputes. As recently as 2010, Llanmaes community council opposed the renaming of a military base to Churchill Lines.

Critical assessment is not �character assassination�. Thanks to the groupthink of �the cult of Churchill�, the late prime minister has become a mythological figure rather than a historical one. To play down the implications of Churchill�s views on race � or suggest absurdly, as Policy Exchange does, that his racist words meant �something other than their conventional definition� � speaks to me of a profound lack of honesty and courage.

This failure of courage is tied to a wider aversion to examining the British empire truthfully, perhaps for fear of what it might say about Britain today. A necessary national conversation about Churchill and the empire he was so committed to is one necessary way to break this unacceptable silence.

Priyamvada Gopal is an academic and author of Insurgent Empire: Anticolonial Resistance and British Dissent

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/17/why-cant-britain-handle-the-truth-about-winston-churchill

Basically people are really bad at acknowledging that people can do both good and bad things. Churchill can only be either a hero or a villain, and so if you point out the villainous things he did then clearly you're saying he could never be a national hero for other things he did--and vice versa, if you say he was a national hero then you can't acknowledge his extraordinary villainy because that would undermine his supposed heroism.

# ? Mar 27, 2021 17:36

exmachina: Mar 12, 2006; Look Closer

vyelkin posted:

Not a Brit but it's just as much of a cult. There was a recent article on it by an academic talking about how intense the backlash is if you try and talk about Churchill's horrible racism and genocides.

Basically people are really bad at acknowledging that people can do both good and bad things. Churchill can only be either a hero or a villain, and so if you point out the villainous things he did then clearly you're saying he could never be a national hero for other things he did--and vice versa, if you say he was a national hero then you can't acknowledge his extraordinary villainy because that would undermine his supposed heroism.

His hatred towards South Asians (and Boers) was intense and well documented, but he did do some good things and people have got to realise their heroes can be tarnished. Early socialist writing is full of antisemitism. Bakunin especially.

# ? Mar 27, 2021 19:37

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/birthmarxist/status/1375958294557302786

# ? Mar 28, 2021 07:00

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

Churchill sucks big time, but in terms of "Dudes rock" energy, he was up there

# ? Mar 28, 2021 07:31

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://twitter.com/CaslerNoel/status/1376198377549991941
https://twitter.com/CaslerNoel/status/1376198385162727424

# ? Mar 29, 2021 13:36

frankenfreak: Feb 16, 2007; I SCORED 85% ON A QUIZ ABOUT MONDAY NIGHT RAW AND ALL I GOT WAS THIS LOUSY TEXT

#bastionboogerbrigade

Some Guy TT posted:

https://twitter.com/CaslerNoel/status/1376198377549991941

"G�ring loved coke" :thunk:

# ? Mar 29, 2021 15:18

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

frankenfreak posted:

"G�ring loved coke"

hes not wrong

# ? Mar 29, 2021 16:13

Fish of hemp: Apr 1, 2011; A friendly little mouse!

What movies did Hitler like? Gone with the wind is really american movie and I don't think you can enjoy if you don't have pretty good knowledge of American history.

# ? Mar 29, 2021 17:26

Riot Bimbo: Dec 28, 2006

Fish of hemp posted:

What movies did Hitler like? Gone with the wind is really american movie and I don't think you can enjoy if you don't have pretty good knowledge of American history.

i think you could say the nazis were a fan of american history

# ? Mar 29, 2021 18:29

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

Some Guy TT posted:

can any brits speak to the liveliness of the churchill cult of personality in england im curious if its as intense there as it is here or if people are just wtf no gently caress that guy the same way there tends to be a gap in terms of how thatcher is perceived

Literally every white Brit over 60 believes they personally fought in WW2 under the benevolent leadership of Churchill, Greatest Briton of All Time.

exmachina posted:

His hatred towards South Asians (and Boers) was intense and well documented, but he did do some good things and people have got to realise their heroes can be tarnished. Early socialist writing is full of antisemitism. Bakunin especially.

Churchill committed genocide, which I think trumps any writings, no matter how badly written.

# ? Mar 29, 2021 18:48

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Fish of hemp posted:

What movies did Hitler like? Gone with the wind is really american movie and I don't think you can enjoy if you don't have pretty good knowledge of American history.

He really liked Snow White apparently and allegedly would doodle the dwarves during the war

# ? Mar 29, 2021 21:15

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

It was more than a "few bad things." The Dardanelles was largely his screw up and it was bad enough it may have actively prolonged the war. He also pushed the landings in Italy in 1943 which went nowhere and used up a bunch of Western strength that could have been used elsewhere. He pushed for the use of chemical weapons on the Kurds earlier in life.

But the worst of all has to be largely ignoring the Bengal famine, a situation that could have quickly been resolved. (It didn't help that he had also pushed against dominion status for India during the 1930s.)

I mean, he kept the British fighting, but you don't really have to accept hagiography about him.

Ardennes has issued a correction as of 23:47 on Mar 29, 2021

# ? Mar 29, 2021 21:42

Toph Bei Fong: Feb 29, 2008

Fish of hemp posted:

What movies did Hitler like? Gone with the wind is really american movie and I don't think you can enjoy if you don't have pretty good knowledge of American history.

In addition to loving Disney movies, Hitler was a massive fan of western cowboy novels. His favorite were the Old Shatterhand and Winnetou books by Karl May (which, given that May is one of the most popular authors in Germany even today, isn't too surprising. Einstein was also a big fan).

The books are, uh...

quote:

Old Shatterhand is the alter ego of Karl May, and May himself maintained that he experienced all the adventures in person, even though in fact he did not visit America until after he wrote most of his well-known Western stories, and never traveled west of Buffalo, NY. Most of the stories are written from a first person perspective, and Winnetou often calls Old Shatterhand my brother Scharli ('Scharli' being a German phonetic approximation of 'Charlie', and ultimately meaning Karl in German). May also wrote stories about the same character traveling the Orient, where he is known as Kara Ben Nemsi.

May attached the prefix Old to the names of several of his characters, considering it to be typically American and a sign of the characters' great experience. In the stories, Old Shatterhand is given the name by his friend Sam Hawkens (who also originates from Germany but is already an old-timer in the American West), as he was able to knock his opponents unconscious with a single punch from his fist aimed at the head (specifically the temple).

Old Shatterhand owns two famous rifles, the B�rent�ter (Bear Killer) and the Henrystutzen (Henry carbine), both made by a fictional gunsmith called Henry in St. Louis (based on gunsmith Benjamin Tyler Henry 1821�1898). The Henrystutzen was able to fire 25 shots without reloading, probably a hyperbolic reference to the Henry rifle. Old Shatterhand rode a horse called Hatatitla (Lightning), which he got from Winnetou, who rode the horse's brother, called Iltschi (meaning Wind).

quote:

Adolf Hitler was an admirer, who noted in Mein Kampf that the novels "overwhelmed" him as a boy, going as far as to ensure "a noticeable decline" in his school grades. According to an anonymous friend, Hitler attended the lecture given by May in Vienna in March 1912 and was enthusiastic about the event. Ironically, the lecture was an appeal for peace, also heard by Nobel Peace Prize laureate Bertha von Suttner. Claus Roxin doubts the anonymous description, because Hitler had said much about May, but not that he had seen him. Hitler defended May against critics in the men's hostel where he lived in Vienna, as the evidence of May's earlier time in jail had come to light; although it was true, Hitler confessed that May had never visited the sites of his American adventure stories. This made him a greater writer in Hitler's view since it showed the author's powers of imagination. May died suddenly only ten days after the lecture, leaving the young Hitler deeply upset.

Hitler later recommended the books to his generals and had special editions distributed to soldiers at the front, praising Winnetou as an example of "tactical finesse and circumspection", though some note that the latter claims of using the books as military guidance are not substantiated. However, as told by Albert Speer, "when faced by seemingly hopeless situations, he [Hitler] would still reach for these stories," because "they gave him courage like works of philosophy for others or the Bible for elderly people." Hitler's admiration for May led the German writer Klaus Mann to accuse May of having been a form of "mentor" for Hitler. In his admiration, Hitler ignored May's Christian and humanitarian approach and views completely, not mentioning his relatively sympathetic description of Jews and other persons of non-Northern European ancestry.

The fate of Native Americans in the United States was used during the world wars for anti-American propaganda. The National Socialists in particular tried to use May's popularity and his work for their purposes.

# ? Mar 29, 2021 22:12

Alhazred: Feb 16, 2011

Ardennes posted:

It was more than a "few bad things." The Dardanelles was largely his screwed and was bad enough it may have actively prolonged the war. He also pushed the landings in Italy in 1943 which went nowhere and used up a bunch of Western strength that could have been used elsewhere. He pushed for the use of chemical weapons on the Kurds earlier in life.

He also started and fueled a civil war in Greece during WWII when it looked like the communists was about to get power.

# ? Mar 29, 2021 22:32

exmachina: Mar 12, 2006; Look Closer

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Literally every white Brit over 60 believes they personally fought in WW2 under the benevolent leadership of Churchill, Greatest Briton of All Time.

Churchill committed genocide, which I think trumps any writings, no matter how badly written.

Yeah but Churchill had power and had to make decisions, Bakunin didn't. Early Soviet leadership caused famines that are considered genocidal by certain groups, too.

I am not trying to absolve Churchill by any means.

# ? Mar 29, 2021 22:55

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

PawParole posted:

we have a pre-napoleon and post-napoleon thread.

but where does napoleon go?

New Jersey
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1356014437342339074?s=20

# ? Mar 30, 2021 00:34

sullat: Jan 9, 2012

Alhazred posted:

He also started and fueled a civil war in Greece during WWII when it looked like the communists was about to get power.

He also encouraged Greece to attack Turkey in like 1920 in order to partition it between France, the UK and Greece (he also offered Italy a piece too, although they found out that they had been offered the same piece as Greece so they turned it down).

# ? Mar 30, 2021 00:38

Platystemon: Feb 13, 2012; BREADS

Cerebral Bore posted:

hes not wrong

G�ring was in good company with his soft drink preference.

Georgy Zhukov was a fan of Coca‐Cola, but so as not to be seen indulging in a symbol of American imperialism, it was bottled for him specially, in clear bottles with no food coloring, so that he would appear to be drinking vodka.

# ? Mar 30, 2021 04:33

A Buttery Pastry: Sep 4, 2011; Delicious and Informative!

exmachina posted:

Yeah but Churchill had power and had to make decisions, Bakunin didn't. Early Soviet leadership caused famines that are considered genocidal by certain groups, too.

I am not trying to absolve Churchill by any means.

Famines? In any case, I do not believe the early Soviet leadership has historically gotten a pass on that poo poo. Also, being an antisemite is not the same as being a genocidal antisemite, otherwise there'd have been no Jewish people around for Hitler to agitate against.

Maybe you're not trying to absolve him, but this is definitely a classic example of Whataboutism.

# ? Mar 30, 2021 07:02

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

yeah we have an entire special word that sounds like holocaust to describe soviet era famines and you get called a genocide denier when you point out the main people pushing that angle are literal nazis and have been for several decades to the point most people have at least heard the term holomodor even if theyre not sure exactly what it was

by contrast i hadnt even heard about imperial britains planned famines until that victorian genocides book came out a few years ago and i doubt anyone else had either

# ? Mar 30, 2021 07:11

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/YonhapNews/status/1376515706271895560

# ? Mar 30, 2021 08:20

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/kpfw_i/status/1376514003195682820

# ? Mar 30, 2021 08:25

twoday: May 4, 2005; C-SPAM Times best-selling author

Atrocious Joe posted:

New Jersey
https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1356014437342339074?s=20

the best thing about old Joey Napoleon is that he claimed to have spotted the Jersey Devil

# ? Mar 30, 2021 14:29

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

twoday posted:

the best thing about old Joey Napoleon is that he claimed to have spotted the Jersey Devil

take down you're portrait

# ? Mar 30, 2021 14:35

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/Chicago_History/status/1376938145174917122

# ? Mar 31, 2021 00:42

Stairmaster: Jun 8, 2012

so Ive been reading about the battle of shanghai and chiang kai-shek does not seem like the leader china needed at that moment in history

# ? Apr 2, 2021 23:30

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

whoops didn't read down

# ? Apr 3, 2021 01:02

Dreylad: Jun 19, 2001

Raskolnikov38 posted:

the slap fighting between hastings and the sleepwalkers guy is hilarious to read

Never saw this, but I really did enjoy Sleepwalkers. The guy did an absolute bucketload of research across a whole bunch of different languages which is pretty drat impressive.

A Buttery Pastry posted:

Literally every white Brit over 60 believes they personally fought in WW2 under the benevolent leadership of Churchill, Greatest Briton of All Time.

To be fair every nation has their myths like this. For a long time every French person of a certain age would claim they were part of the Resistance.

Dreylad has issued a correction as of 01:07 on Apr 3, 2021

# ? Apr 3, 2021 01:05

Raskolnikov38: Mar 3, 2007; We were somewhere around Manila when the drugs began to take hold

Dreylad posted:

Never saw this, but I really did enjoy Sleepwalkers. The guy did an absolute bucketload of research across a whole bunch of different languages which is pretty drat impressive.

To be fair every nation has their myths like this. For a long time every French person of a certain age would claim they were part of the Resistance.

its in catastrophe: 1914. he spends the entire book subtweeting sleepwalkers while blaming everything on germany

# ? Apr 3, 2021 01:45

Some Guy TT: Aug 30, 2011

https://mobile.twitter.com/CAMcGrady/status/1378098984632393728

# ? Apr 3, 2021 15:35

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# ? Apr 28, 2024 08:01

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

Anybody have any good readings on Portuguese Decolonization (i.e Cabral, Angola and Mozambique bush wars, and the Carnation revolution)

# ? Apr 3, 2021 18:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Modern History] Guns Condoms and Electricity

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