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Sitcoms would seem to be the lowest common denominator in terms of actual scripted television shows. Throw some people together, tell them to be "wacky" and call it a day. Don't really have to worry too much about plot or characterization, it's all just silliness. But amidst all the dreck, sitcoms can be truly intelligent, witty and have good stories and characters. Now I grew up in the 90s - TGIF on Channel 7, WB 20, UPN 50.... Home Improvement was probably the sitcom I was most attached o in my childhood but not sure how well it would have aged. And i certainly have no desire to go back and re-watch any of the other sitcoms I grew up with. (apart from Simpsons, I guess) Gilligan's Island was the only reason I watched Nickelodeon. Many years ago now me and my grandmother collected all seasons of Frasier on DVD and I think that was probably my favorite sitcom ever. I think it was pretty much perfect in terms of acting, writing and maintaining a balance of humor without going overboard and losing sight of how the characters are "real people." I know a lot of folks swear by Seinfeld but I never seriously sat down and watched it. I really should do that someday. But yeah, which sitcoms do you feel were genuinely good television? Are sitcoms better than I give them credit for? I just feel like a lifetime with them until I gave up Cable shows they're a pretty lazy product that saturated the market and 99.9% will be forgotten the instant they get canned. But maybe that describes most TV shows.
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Feb 14, 2021 15:01
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What even is a sitcom? If it means very specifically the multi-camera, "filmed in front of a live audience" type shows there's plenty of great examples, although less these days since it's sort of an antiquated format. Stuff like The Big Bang theory is lazy dreck, but that's mostly because it's just coasting on fumes of a dead format when the medium has moved on from it. But I don't think you can point to something like I Love Lucy and call it lazy, especially when it pioneered like 90% of what we think about when we think of TV shows. If the modern single camera style can be considered a sitcom, there's countless great modern shows. And there's a ton of transitional stuff that doesn't fit completely cleanly into the single-camera / multi-camera live audience dichotomy - How I met your mother is a good example of those, where it's multi-cam, but not filmed in front of an audience, with camera cuts and pacing that would be more at home in a single-cam show.
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Feb 14, 2021 15:32
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Sitcoms are probably the most underrated TV show format. They get misrepresented online a lot too. With the rise of single camera comedies, it's not uncommon for people to claim that all the laughter in sitcoms is just canned (not really - producers want actual laughs since they'll always sound better), and then talk about actors pausing for laughs, ignoring the fact that the actors are on stage in front of an audience. And it's not as if single camera comedies don't pause for laughter either, they just do it in a different way. But for good sitcoms: Cheers - You talked about Frasier, why not watch the prequel series and see where it all began! Cheers is one of the sharpest sitcoms out there. And James Burrows, who directed most of the series, would sometimes do some pretty interesting things, like that opening shot in the first episode. The show was able to get a lot of mileage out of the bar, and they had a fantastic cast to boot. There's a lot of wit and intelligence to the writing, and for a show pushing 40, it's aged pretty well. Newsradio - Watch the pilot, and you understand the energy that a 3 camera sitcom can bring. It's just constantly moving, and everybody is just running around. The first four seasons were the best, where the show did a great job staying on that line where everything was about to fall apart but never quite did. In season 5, the show's quality drops pretty significantly, but there were a lot of things going on in that would have made it hard for the show to be a success. But the first 4 seasons were blessed with a perfect cast, and it's a lot of people you probably know from elsewhere. And really, the only reason why the show kept getting renew was because of Phil Hartman - NBC thought he was going to break out, and they knew if that happen, the show could blow up. Sadly, between season 4 and 5, he was murdered. But it was a breakout moment for Maura Tierney, Stephen Root, Andy Dick, and Joe Rogan. Yeah. Those last two - and the show is still amazing. I think that speaks for itself. And the show itself was a vehicle for Dave Foley, and when he was on screen with Phil Hartman, there were sparks. The two of them just played into each other so well comedically. Nobody does crazy quite like Dave Foley, and nobody drives people crazy quite like Phil Hartman. Everybody Loves Raymond - This show was consistently funny, and it was blessed by a great cast. Funny enough, Ray Romano was often the least funny person on screen. But he knew enough to let the rest of the cast shine. In the standard family sitcom affair, Everybody Loves Raymond stands out because of the quality of its writing and its cast. Wings - Another show that's made by a lot of the same creative minds behind Cheers and Frasier, and even features two Cheers crossovers - in one episode, Cliff and Norm are on a flight in the cold open, and another episode features Frasier holding a seminar (he was still married to Lilith, which makes it a Cheers crossover... I take my Frasier lore VERY SERIOUSLY thank you very much). MTM comedies - Mary Tyler Moore's production company put out some great sitcoms in the 70s - namely the Mary Tyler Moore Show and the Bob Newhart Show. Some of the office dynamics in Mary Tyler Moore haven't aged as well, but pretty much, up until the last 3 episodes or so, the show was really good. Betty White shows up in Season 4, and she's fantastic. The Bob Newhart Show is another really good show that just has a lot of sharp writing. One of the things that saved the Bob Newhart show is that he never had kids on the show - he didn't think kids were funny, and he didn't want to add that dynamic to the show. The other one to watch that is borderline a sitcom would be M*A*S*H. But you have to get it on DVDs, since whenever they put it up on streaming, they only use the versions with the laugh tracks. Which is completely dumb - the show wasn't supposed to have a laugh track, and it's actually much funnier without one, because the laugh track seems to be placed at the worst points in time. And it's also not present during the surgery scenes - which means that you're being told that these scenes aren't funny, when really, they're pretty funny. You're right though - a lot of sitcoms are crap, but that's because 80% of anything is crap. It takes a lot of talent to make a show that's good and interesting, and willing to be funny. The problem is that a lot of these shows can end up being cookie cutter, to the point where you wonder exactly what's being added. It also doesn't help that when they're bad, they tend to be really bad. Part of it is that the style of the show can feel very broad and very big. The shooting style requires for large open spaces that makes it easy for cameras to track the movement of characters and for people to move through, and also allowing space for some dynamics. And then the laugh track - even with a live audience, it can feel inauthentic. And there's nothing worse than finding something not funny at all, and hearing people howling like hyenas (looking at you, BBT). And the problem can become worse when a show gets more popular. Ken Levine, who wrote for Cheers (and M*A*S*H, and Frasier, and Wings, and two episodes of the Simpsons) - talked about how towards the end of its run, audiences would just be delighted to see their favorite characters that they would laugh even if something wasn't particularly funny. Compare a bad sitcom to a bad single camera comedy, and you'll probably see what I'm talking about. A bad single camera comedy isn't funny, but it might not be completely unwatchable either. Too often, they settle for quirky or clever, maybe at best amusing, but they never hit funny. But at least, you feel like you're watching a mediocre drama, not being reminded that the show isn't funny with every joke.
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Feb 14, 2021 15:47
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That’s a god drat good post But yes OP Seinfeld is the GOAT and you should watch it
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Feb 14, 2021 18:27
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Sitcoms are not good or bad, they're just a television format. They are deceptively hard to make, especially what we know of the classic sitcoms: you only need to create a comedy engine that will pump out multiple seasons for years and years. Great writing can fumble with bad casting, and workman-like stuff can shine when made by great actors.
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Feb 14, 2021 18:34
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There's an ocean of poo poo sitcoms you have to wade through to find the good ones, but that's the case with anything on TV. Go on YouTube and you can find ads the networks would run in the fall advertising their prime time lineup. The vast majority of those shows don't make it past one season because they're awful. It's hard to find a show where the writing and acting click and everything works. As for sitcoms from the past you should check out (these are off the top of my head): I Love Lucy Hogan's Heroes All In the Family The Jeffersons Good Times (at least the first couple seasons) Get Smart Sanford and Son Threes Company Happy Days (the first couple seasons are pretty good before it turned into the Fonzie show) Laverne and Shirley Green Acres (yes really. the show is goofy as gently caress and Eva Gabor is really good in it) Taxi (from the same creative team as Frasier) WKRP in Cincinnatiiiiiiiiii Soap Police Squad
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Feb 14, 2021 19:15
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Cemetry Gator posted:
I did a binge-watch of all 11 seasons of MASH early in lockdown, so some thoughts: The irony is that the showrunners fought to have the laugh track be omitted from the surgery scenes, because while there is 100% a lot of gags there, they wanted them to land as at least being serious in the sense that the actual work was serious. MASH is seminal for a lot of reasons, the single camera nature of the show means it's actually aged reasonably well in terms of style, and there's actually some surprises in how they deal with some social issues pretty decently for the time. There's early episodes that deal with homophobia and human trafficking that do a solid job for an early 70s audience in having Our Heroes show them why these things are Bad. But it's still very much a product of it's time. The show's treatment of women and sex is... spotty at best, although it got better as the show went on, presumably because Loretta Swit had more clout being a star of one of the biggest shows on TV, but there's some early poo poo that is downright horrific when viewed in hindsight. The laugh track thing also does some interesting things with the character of Klinger. The laugh track makes it extremely clear that the sight of a male-presenting/identied character in a dress was meant to be a laugh all on it's own, but without the laugh track... I think he's presented reasonably well for the time? Like, a lot of the jokes boil down to 'rear end in a top hat makes fun of Klinger, Klinger (or Hawkeye or BJ) hits back with a one-liner and humiliates jerk'. Race is a dicey one as well, and I know Korean people have a ton of issues with the show, especially for how it usually depicts the natives in South Korea, generally as near-mute farmers and peasants, almost more like the MASH crew have gone back in time than to a foreign nation. And there was a minor supporting character early in the show that seems to have been dropped due to a racist nickname carried over from the book/movie but to me the better bet would've just been to drop the nickname, considering they basically did that for some other characters. It's arguably one of the first 'dramedies', hitting that '30 minute show that sometimes stops being funny because the story is Very Serious' beat very well. There's pretty much 3-4 'eras' of MASH (usually it's seen as 3, but I think you can argue 4): S1-3: The Trapper John McIntyre years. Wayne Rogers and McLean Stevenson (Trapper John and Col. Henry Blake, respectively) were clearly sold on the show being more of a buddy comedy where they'd be equal or close to it billing with Alan Alda's Hawkeye Pierce. A lot of the episodes in this run are more sitcom standard fare modified for the war time/army setting, with only a handful of the bigger 'issue' episodes and even those tend to be more gag heavy. But midway through season 1, the episode "Sometimes You Hear The Bullet" provided a template for the more dramatic episodes and Alda nails the performance. It became increasingly clear that the show was turning more into the Hawkeye show with everyone else as supporting players. So that led to both actors leaving, and the infamous "Abyssinia Henry" finale to season 3 that's been parodied a thousand times. S4-8 (I think you can split this into 4-5 and 6-8, personally): This is kind of a case of the show finding itself, and outgrowing some elements, notably Larry Linville's Frank Burns. Linville, unlike Rogers and Stevenson, knew his character wasn't the star of the show, but as all the other characters began to show personality traits that lent themselves to the more dramatic episodes, Frank stayed a cartoon villain. Something had to give, so they replaced him with David Ogden Stiers as Maj Charles Winchester, a similar blowhard, but with a level of competence and empathy that let him slide into the role of sympathetic dramatic lead when needed. They also bring in Mike Farrell and Dragnet's Harry Morgan to replace Rogers and Stevenson, both playing characters much more suited to their slightly reduced roles The show was much less about the goofball draftees vs the army straights, and more 'peacenik docs vs war and The Establishment', which lent itself to fewer of the stock sitcom plots, so you get more war/medical stories with jokes stapled in. The split I mention is when Linville leaves, because that pretty much drops the whole 'regular army as antagonist' element, at least in so far as having a boot licking officer looking to run the good guys in. S9-11: I think this period is a little unfairly maligned, having watched it recently. It's sometimes treated like later seasons of The Simpsons, universally unfunny, albeit for the opposite reason: Too much heart instead of too little. Season 10 does start to get a little heavy on the cloying sentimentality in the hopes it'll make up for the loss of conflict between the leads blunting the jokes. But 9 is generally still very solid and 11 has a back-to-basics approach that suggests everyone involved knew the end was near. One thing that is probably fair is the accusation of Alda getting self-indulgent. Several episodes around this time contrive to give him whole episodes of screen time to himself to monologue and emote, usually written and even directed by the man himself, using his power as executive producer.
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Feb 15, 2021 00:40
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This is one of my favorite 70s sitcoms. Like the soap operas of its day that is parodies, some things have not aged well. I don't thing they handled gay character Jody Dallas as well as they could have. Still, here's some things to watch out for: Richard Mulligan as Burt Campbell. Mulligan is brilliant at line delivery and physical comedy Chuck and Bob. Chuck is a ventriloquist. He's a nice enough guy and Bob is his alter-ego dummy. Bob is the rear end in a top hat Chuck can't be. Watching the other characters interact with Bob can be hilarious. Benson. The Tate family butler and head of household. He has genuine affection for Jessica, Corrine, and Billy. His open disdain for Chester is legendary. The show has a lot of slapstick comedy, but can be brutally serious when needed. Especially Elaine's story arc.
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Feb 15, 2021 00:48
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Is Soap streaming anywhere? I haven't watched it since Comedy Central aired reruns decades ago.
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Feb 15, 2021 00:54
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Jose Oquendo posted:Is Soap streaming anywhere? I haven't watched it since Comedy Central aired reruns decades ago. Not that I know of. The DVD series set is pretty cheap.
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Feb 15, 2021 00:58
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Jose Oquendo posted:Is Soap streaming anywhere? I haven't watched it since Comedy Central aired reruns decades ago. You're lucky to even find Benson available anywhere. UK Prime Video only has the first season, and only for purchase, not as part of Prime itself.
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Feb 15, 2021 01:05
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Scrubs despite its abysmal seasons 6 and 7 are absolutely worth watching. Early Modern Family is good if not exactly boundary pushing and absolutely elevated by the actors. The Drew Carey show was epically weird and worth checking out. If I get a chance I want to watch Cheers and Family Ties to see if it holds up. Because Rain Delays in Boston meant Family Ties.
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Feb 15, 2021 01:59
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I feel like despite Fox being a hell of an actor, Alex Keaton is gonna play very differently today.
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Feb 15, 2021 02:04
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Cheers holds up and is still hilarious. Family Ties...not so much. It's an OK sitcom that's held up by a lightning in a bottle performance in Michael J Fox. As for his character? It's fine. His right-leaning personality is pretty much just 'make lots of money and like Ronald Reagan. If the character were transported to 2021 he would be a centrist democrat. Pluto has a 24/7 Family Ties channel if you want to check it out. edit: Since you mentioned Cheers, I'll also plug Taxi again. It has a lot of the same creatives behind Cheers. Danny DeVito's character Louie is one of the all time great TV characters. Judd Hirsch, Marilu Henner are great. Andy Kaufman does his thing and it's amazing. Christopher Lloyd's Reverend Jim is another one of those all time great characters as well. A lot of the episodes are on different streaming platforms but I don't think the whole thing is available anywhere aside from DVD. double edit: If you want to check out some classic sitcoms for free, here's some options: Pluto: Family Ties, Happy Days, Laverne and Shirley, Mork and Mindy, Three's Company, the Addams Family, Beverly Hillbillies, Wings. Some of these channels rotate other stuff too but I can't remember what else they have. Shoutfactory TV: Car 54 Where Are You, Dennis the Menace, Father Knows Best, The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis. The Roku Channel: Bewitched, I dream of Jeanie, . Actually, this channel has a few episodes of a lot of sitcoms, so I won't list them all, but you can check it out. Peacock: 3rd Rock from the Sun, 30 Rock, Leave it to Beaver, the Munsters Jose Oquendo fucked around with this message at 02:27 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 02:07
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I appreciate all the recommendations and I will definitely try to find and check them out as best as i can. It's just that, while I understand most things are poo poo, Cemetry Gator used the term "cookie cutter' which sums up my experience with sitcoms. As I said, I grew up drowning in them. It really does seem like it takes so much less effort than any other type of scripted TV show. You get some zany characters put them in improbable situations , have the audience laugh or wolf whistle at sex or go d'awww at emotional moments and BOOM. You're done. It seems so much more formulaic than anything else. ,Maybe it's the audience cues that really kill me.
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Feb 17, 2021 00:46
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I would argue that almost every TV show format is formulaic to an extent. For sitcoms that can be a strength or a liability. If the characters are well written, liked, and the jokes are good, then it being formulaic isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's like comfort food. Binge watching has changed things, but there's a certain comfort to sitting down every Thursday night to see what Sam Malone and the gang at Cheers are up to this week. On the other hand, if a sitcom has bad writing or if the characters are stale then you're going to notice the formulaic stuff a lot easier.
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Feb 17, 2021 01:20
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I think shows in general were a lot more formulaic before LOST, in particular. I'm rewatching that now and it's really crazy how many genres and moods the show goes through almost effortlessly. It took until then for the big American networks to fully internalize that being experimental was actually okay
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Feb 17, 2021 02:06
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Up until All in the Family came along (mostly), sitcoms were ridiculously formulaic with zero memory retention. How many times did Gillgan gently caress up a rescue attempt? How may times did Darrin piss off someone in Samantha's family and get turned into some horrible thing? How may times did Tony anger Jeannie and get turned into some horrible thing? Very rarely did any sitcom character show any kind of growth. Even though Archie was a raging bigot, he did mature at least a little bit over the series run. Edith became a more assertive, too.
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Feb 17, 2021 02:12
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Norman Lear's impact on the format is basically impossible to overstate. Hell, even as recently as the new One Day At A Time that got cancelled recently he was involved with some pretty progressive stuff within the genre.
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Feb 17, 2021 04:21
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Always Sunny is good. Most adult cartoons have a lot of sitcom in their DNA via Simpsons and the Simpsons was very good at one point. Plus there were some good ones pre-Reagan like Maude and Soap.
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Feb 17, 2021 14:22
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NikkolasKing posted:I appreciate all the recommendations and I will definitely try to find and check them out as best as i can. Eh, they are just as formulaic as anything else. How many superhero shows are on right now? What about doctor shows? What about family dramas? What about police procedurals? What about talent shows? I think because sitcoms have a heighten nature, like soap operas, it's easier to pick up on the elements you see all the time and call them out.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:36
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Mooseontheloose posted:Scrubs despite its abysmal seasons 6 and 7 are absolutely worth watching. Scrubs is fun the first time through, but I realized when I heard "The best part of waking up!...is Elliot in your cup!" (sung to the Folgers jingle) one too many times or Elliot having her engagement "ruined" and restaging the whole thing and wanted to shoot my TV, that every character on that show being quirky had reached its expiration date. (I like Sarah Chalke and hate that those are the first two things which came to mind.) I watched a couple Drew Carey episodes on one of the OTA channels a few years ago and it didn't move the meter as much as it did the first time, but haven't ruled out binging it again. Does Reno 911! count as a sitcom? I (in my infinite teenage wisdom) thought it looked horrible when it first ran, but gave it a try when they had a NYE marathon in 2018 and almost immediately bought the whole series on DVD because drat, was I wrong. Much of the content on the show would never be green-lit today, but it's one of the few shows I've watched where you can see the gag coming a mile away and it's still hilarious when they pay it off. I'm not saying it's one of the GOAT, but landed most of the way through.
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Feb 22, 2021 06:07
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